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Thread: Two sided carving problem (Help Please).

  1. #1
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    Default Two sided carving problem (Help Please).

    Hello all.

    Very recently, a member at the Penturners Forum shared a project that he had done, for his mom. He was the owner of a CW machine, and his project consisted of a pen box that he had made, from a free pattern which was obtained from this site. It was 'Cross with Face' pattern, witha double-sided pattern layout.

    Now, I'd never done a carving like this, before, but followed what bit of info I could find on it. Methinks, however, that I either did something that I shouldn't have done, or didn't do exactly as I should have done. What I did, was the following:

    I placed two files, of the pattern, on my CW card. One, was for the front of the pattern, and the other referenced the backside. I called up the back side, first, and carved it. This was the side with the recessed area which is where the pen would rest. I then pulled up the front pattern side, flipped the board, and proceeded to carve THAT side. But I found, however, that the same carving (as ad been done on the back side) had carved on the front (top).

    I am very anxious to make a nice, Christian pen & pen box, for my mom, and this pattern would be perfect. Any info on what might have caused this to go wrong, would be most appreciative.

    Advanced thanks.

    Blessings,
    Nathan
    ~ Blessings ~
    Nathan

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    Hello all.

    Very recently, a member at the Penturners Forum shared a project that he had done, for his mom. He was the owner of a CW machine, and his project consisted of a pen box that he had made, from a free pattern which was obtained from this site. It was 'Cross with Face' pattern, witha double-sided pattern layout.

    Now, I'd never done a carving like this, before, but followed what bit of info I could find on it. Methinks, however, that I either did something that I shouldn't have done, or didn't do exactly as I should have done. What I did, was the following:

    I placed two files, of the pattern, on my CW card. One, was for the front of the pattern, and the other referenced the backside. I called up the back side, first, and carved it. This was the side with the recessed area which is where the pen would rest. I then pulled up the front pattern side, flipped the board, and proceeded to carve THAT side. But I found, however, that the same carving (as ad been done on the back side) had carved on the front (top).

    I am very anxious to make a nice, Christian pen & pen box, for my mom, and this pattern would be perfect. Any info on what might have caused this to go wrong, would be most appreciative.

    Advanced thanks.

    Blessings,
    Nathan
    I'm not real sure of what you are trying to do. Pen boxes usually have 4 carving surfaces. An inside and an outside for the top and the bottom. One of the nicest features of the Carvewright machine is 2-sided carvings and works pretty good as long as there are no tracking issues. Assuming both of your projects have two sides with a carving on each side, place the first one in the machine bottom side up. When it completes the machine will prompt you to flip the board. Flip it short side to short side, not end for end. It will then measure the board again and carve the front. Repeat the process for the other half. There are many techniques that can be used, eg. place project in center of board, jog to position, using a sled, etc. Here is a link to the tips and tricks article on 2-sided carving.
    http://www.carvewright.com/assets/ti...cks_Sept09.pdf
    Last edited by SteveNelson46; 07-06-2017 at 10:28 AM.
    Steve

  3. #3

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    Are you sure you did not mix up the files?

    Why not merge the two files into one - this is the standard method for two-sided carvings. You will be prompted to load the back side first, then to flip the board when the back has been machined.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DickB View Post
    Are you sure you did not mix up the files?

    Why not merge the two files into one - this is the standard method for two-sided carvings. You will be prompted to load the back side first, then to flip the board when the back has been machined.
    Thanks to you, Dick (as well as the other responder), for your input.

    I have attached the MPC to the file that I wish to carve and, initially, thought that it would be an automated carving process - save for the notification to flip the board. Confusion DID set in, when I saw that the BACK of the board would be carved, first. I had thought that whatever side was 'showing' - when a file was uploaded to the card - would be the side which would be carved. I did download, and read over the CW Tutorial, on two-sided carvings, but still seem to be a bit in the dark about some things. For instance, my CW machine rendered notice, at one point, that the wood stock might be too shallow for the carving. It then offered a choice for me to ABORT, or CONTINUE. I chose to continue, since the person who sent me the file had success in making the pen box for his mother.

    Maybe the bulb will click ON, for me , once I have time to REALLY immerse myself into that tutorial. I REALLY hope to get a handle on this, as I know that my mother would REALLY love it.

    I need to find out what (if anything) i'd be required to do, outside of just flipping the board.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    ~ Blessings ~
    Nathan

  5. #5

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    Actually, I don't see a need to make this a two-sided carve, unless I am missing something. Won't this work?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crosss modified.PNG 
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    You had the cutout on the inside of the outline. I think you want it on the outside, or you will be losing some of your carving. I did a Flip Cutout.

    You are also wasting a lot of board space. I did not change your board size, but there's no reason not to put the two pieces closer together and make the board smaller.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DickB View Post
    Actually, I don't see a need to make this a two-sided carve, unless I am missing something. Won't this work?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crosss modified.PNG 
Views:	22 
Size:	564.1 KB 
ID:	84405

    You had the cutout on the inside of the outline. I think you want it on the outside, or you will be losing some of your carving. I did a Flip Cutout.

    You are also wasting a lot of board space. I did not change your board size, but there's no reason not to put the two pieces closer together and make the board smaller.
    I am going to download your file, when I get on my laptop (on my iPad, right now).

    One thing, though: I did not design this. What I had attached, in my previous post to you, was just as it was received from someone else. I DID, however, think that there was a bit too much wasted wood, there. However - with me not knowing diddly squat about such things - I just figured that it was as it was supposed to be. When you stated that you did a 'Flip Cutout', I don't know what you mean by that. Being that the BACK of the board will be cut, first, I am assuming that the FRONT of the board (with face) will be carved (after flipping) - and that the Cutout will automatically be cut in, along with that. Am I right about this?

    Also, do I stay under the rollers, with this project? Or no?

    Would I have to change carving bits, on this project? Or no?

    I hope you don't mind these questions. But, I'm reasonably sure that - with the answers to them - I should be armed with what I need to get this carving done. I thank you SO MUCH.
    ~ Blessings ~
    Nathan

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    When you stated that you did a 'Flip Cutout', I don't know what you mean by that.
    Nathan-The Flip cutout doesn't deal with the carving order, it just moves the cut line around the figure from the inside to the outside. In the original, the cutting bit was set to run inside the line, essentially cutting off part of the figure. "Flip Cutout" moves the bit to the outside of the line, leaving all of the figure intact.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    George
    Life is short....drink the good wine first!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    When you stated that you did a 'Flip Cutout', I don't know what you mean by that.
    Flip cut refers to which side of the outline you want the Cut Path tool to follow. You can choose or change this in the Cut Path dialog box:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut.PNG 
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    In your original project file the cut path was on the inside of the outline, cutting away 1/8" of your carving:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut inside.PNG 
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ID:	84410

    To preserve the carving you want the cut path to be outside of the outline:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut outside.PNG 
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ID:	84411

    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    Being that the BACK of the board will be cut, first, I am assuming that the FRONT of the board (with face) will be carved (after flipping) - and that the Cutout will automatically be cut in, along with that. Am I right about this?
    No. I've rearranged the project so that all machining is done from the front of the board only.

    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    Also, do I stay under the rollers, with this project? Or no?
    The original project was not set up well to answer either way. And I did not focus on that in my modified project. So I'm posting new versions to minimize board waste.

    This business of stay under rollers can be confusing to new users - it certainly was to me. How to answer the machine's question depends upon how the project was laid out on the virtual board.

    We always want the machine to stay under the rollers, no matter how we answer the question. Since the actual machined area for this project is about 17" long, you are going to need about a 24" long board in any case.

    Lets start with project Cross stay under rollers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cross stay under rollers.PNG 
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ID:	84412
    I have laid this out on the smallest possible standard-size virtual board. Notice that there is about 1" wasted top and bottom. This (on the bottom) is necessary to keep the cutting bit away from the brass roller. You might be tempted to go from a standard 8" board (7.5" actual) to a 6" board (5.5" actual), but that would put the cutting bit close to the brass roller. This can introduce vibration and cutting errors. For this project, you would want to answer "yes" to Stay Under Rollers? In this case the machine will then add 3.5" to the length of the project on either end, to have enough board length to stay under rollers.

    Now look at project Cross not under rollers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cross not under rollers.PNG 
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ID:	84413
    In this case I have selected a longer virtual board, and I've placed carvings and cutouts at least 3.5" away from the ends of the board. In this case I would answer "no" to Stay under rollers?, so the machine doesn't add yet another 7" to my board length, but in fact the board will stay under the rollers.

    Quote Originally Posted by NLAlston View Post
    Would I have to change carving bits, on this project? Or no?
    You will load the cutting bit, then the carving bit before any machining takes place. After carving you will load the cutting bit. Just follow the prompts.

    I would strongly recommend that you use a sled for this project, to save on material and to avoid possible vibration-induced cutting errors, but that's a whole other discussion.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by DickB; 07-07-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #9
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    Since hinges would be difficult for this kind of project you might want to consider raised/recessed indexing to align the top and the bottom. Just a suggestion. I also made it a pierced project. I think that the irregular edges would make it difficult to sand otherwise. If you decide to use my example be sure to check all measurements to make sure everything aligns up properly. A test carve in scrap wood is recommended.

    Just run it as a standard two sided carve.

    This was done in version 3.1 using the extrude tool for the pen recesses.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cross Pen Box top.png   Cross Pen Box Bottom.png  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by SteveNelson46; 07-07-2017 at 02:12 PM.
    Steve

  10. #10
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    Nov 2013
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    Amherst, NY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DickB View Post
    Flip cut refers to which side of the outline you want the Cut Path tool to follow. You can choose or change this in the Cut Path dialog box:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut.PNG 
Views:	4 
Size:	406.2 KB 
ID:	84409

    In your original project file the cut path was on the inside of the outline, cutting away 1/8" of your carving:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut inside.PNG 
Views:	5 
Size:	591.2 KB 
ID:	84410

    To preserve the carving you want the cut path to be outside of the outline:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flip Cut outside.PNG 
Views:	4 
Size:	606.6 KB 
ID:	84411

    No. I've rearranged the project so that all machining is done from the front of the board only.

    The original project was not set up well to answer either way. And I did not focus on that in my modified project. So I'm posting new versions to minimize board waste.

    This business of stay under rollers can be confusing to new users - it certainly was to me. How to answer the machine's question depends upon how the project was laid out on the virtual board.

    We always want the machine to stay under the rollers, no matter how we answer the question. Since the actual machined area for this project is about 17" long, you are going to need about a 24" long board in any case.

    Lets start with project Cross stay under rollers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cross stay under rollers.PNG 
Views:	6 
Size:	495.2 KB 
ID:	84412
    I have laid this out on the smallest possible standard-size virtual board. Notice that there is about 1" wasted top and bottom. This (on the bottom) is necessary to keep the cutting bit away from the brass roller. You might be tempted to go from a standard 8" board (7.5" actual) to a 6" board (5.5" actual), but that would put the cutting bit close to the brass roller. This can introduce vibration and cutting errors. For this project, you would want to answer "yes" to Stay Under Rollers? In this case the machine will then add 3.5" to the length of the project on either end, to have enough board length to stay under rollers.

    Now look at project Cross not under rollers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cross not under rollers.PNG 
Views:	4 
Size:	480.0 KB 
ID:	84413
    In this case I have selected a longer virtual board, and I've placed carvings and cutouts at least 3.5" away from the ends of the board. In this case I would answer "no" to Stay under rollers?, so the machine doesn't add yet another 7" to my board length, but in fact the board will stay under the rollers.

    You will load the cutting bit, then the carving bit before any machining takes place. After carving you will load the cutting bit. Just follow the prompts.

    I would strongly recommend that you use a sled for this project, to save on material and to avoid possible vibration-induced cutting errors, but that's a whole other discussion.
    Dick, before I respond to THIS post from you, let me tell you what I did.

    Yesterday evening, I put my Carvewright to task, with your modified Cross pattern file. I was SO elated when I saw that the FRONT side of the Cross was ACTUALLY being carved.

    It was 38% through the carving that I had to leave home. I had, previously, set the carving quality at BEST, with my machine giving a projected carving time of about an hour and thirty, plus minutes. I thought that I would have been back home, before the project's completion. When I did return, I found that the machine had stopped, with a notice for me to install the 1/16" carving bit. That bit is the one that I had started the carving with, so I just hit the ENTER key - which started the CW carving, again.

    When the carving stopped, I saw that the project wasn't completed. All was fine, except for the cutout. The actual carving went exceedingly well, but neither the front - nor back - was cut through from the board. Consequently, I had to use my bandsaw to cut the two, separate carvings from the stock. But - thanks to YOU - I'm getting a lot closer to where I want to be, within the carving of this Cross Pen Box.

    There was no information as to what bit(s) to use, in the project and I had just assumed that the 1/16" bit
    was THE carving bit to use.

    You mentioned making a sled, and I have no problem at all, with that. I intend on making a lot of these boxes (especially when I get the 'Cut Through' issue in hand), and a dedicated sled WILL come in handy.

    I noticed, in this post of yours, that you mentioned loading the Cutting, THEN the Carving bit (just follow the prompts. When I started the carving I was faced with a 1/16" bit notice - with option to choose other. I thought that the machine had made the best choice, so I just left it at that.

    Now, I wonder if (while I was gone) the machine HAD called for another bit to be installed. If that HAD been the case, I thought that the machine's notice would remain on the screen until such time as I'd gotten back to it.

    So, by virtue of what you've offered, it appears that more than ONE bit IS required for the proper Carving/Cutout of the pattern. I'm going to give it another go, tomorrow.

    Your post will prove to be VERY helpful to me, and I am extremely grateful to you.
    ~ Blessings ~
    Nathan

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