Forum Thoughts - Patterns

[RedBear]

Now I am not sure what I can do. I have some patterns that I bought which were intended for hand carving and/or wood burning. Obviously you cannot import one straight into designer and end up with anything worth carving. To make them carveable requires a good deal of work........and in the process the only thing recognizeable from the original pattern is the outline, if that....and in most cases I change that one way or another to suit myself.

Now the qauestion is, can I share the jpg I created or the ptn that results from it?

Usually what they say is that if your work is "substantially different" from the original work that you started from, you should be fine with distributing it. If any reasonable person could look at your image and say that it bears very little resemblance to the original outline drawing, then it can probably be classed as an original work and therefore the copyright would belong to you. This is of course kind of a gray area since the phrase "substantially different" is a subjective judgement that will vary from person to person. But if you really did put in "a good deal of work" on it, you should be fine.

On the other hand, scanning in the image and importing it directly into Designer with minimal changes and then distributing the resulting PTN file would be a definite copyright violation, of course.

Clear as mud now, I hope.

[Jeff_Birt]

Well, I don't even remember how this thread started out but the information provided by RedBear was very informative and I hope it has helped to clear this issue up for everyone.

I know some folks have gotten their shorts-in-a-wad over this issue, and they persaonlly don't care, one way or the other, about sharing copyrighted images etc (and to be honest if you are making a sign for yourself or your grandma I don't think any company around would care either). That's fine, you are free to do what you wan't personally. Please understand that who ever runs/owns the website is liable for hosting the shared files. In other words, CW will get sued if there is a legal problem with sharing the file and that is not good for any of us.

Folks, If you get asked about the ownership of something you are sharing please don't get upset. As a side note: I once wrote a piece of software to communicate with an older CNC mill and posted it on a user forum for that type of mill, for free use. The forum mod/admin later sent me a somewhat stern letter asking if it was a commercial software and if it was to please remove it. The guy was doing what he should have done, making sure that the forum would stay open as a valuable resource for its members. All it took was a brief response from me to clear things up. If you question whether something shared on this forum should be, please contact a moderator and/or the OP via PM, do not attack the OP in public.

I move to lock this subject and move on to the subject of carving. With RedBears approval I will also copy his explanations of this subject to a seperate thread that will be easier to find adn reference.

You know I was on legal forum the other day and a discussion about carving broke out

[CallNeg151]

The whole post explains it, but the executive summary is this:
1. Trademark and copyright are two different things.
2. If its your original work, you own a copyright on it.
3. If it is a logo or other trademark, it may be copied, but its use may be retricted.
4. Posting a pattern or project file containing a copyrighted element in it is not permitted without the permission of the copyright holder, especially since the end user could extract the element from the posted file and use it in his or her works without permission of the copyright holder.
5. Posting a picture of your own work, even containing a copyrighted pattern, to describe and identify your work is likely fair use, since you are entitled to describe and advertise your own work, and it is unlikely that a picture will facilitate duplication of the project without licensing the pattern.

IN DETAIL:
To clarify (hopefully) what Redbear said, the CocaCola logo (for example) is not subject to copyright, but it is a trademark. You may not USE the trademark for unauthorized purposes. In theory, trademarks exist for purposes of consumer protection, to prevent consumers from believing they are buying one person's goods or services, but instead receiving another. It is the end use that will dictate what you can do with the trademark. For example, I can talk about Coca Cola brand soft drink until I'm blue in the face, use their logo to identify that company, or even educate consumers as to the differences between their product and my product (remember the whole Coke vs. Pepsi ads that had both logos in them? Do you think the rival company authorized the use?). If you sell a Ford Motors logo sign to your local ford dealership so that they can identify that they sell Ford brand cars, I don't think you've got a problem. On the other hand, selling a ford logo product to end consumers would be a problem, because they sell their logo on a great many consumer goods, and the use of the logo would possibly confuse them into believing that your product is associated with, or endorsed by Ford Motors. Creating a logo pattern for yourself is also not a problem, provided that it is not used in a way that would cause people to believe that you or your product are affiliated with or endorsed by the trademark holder.

As to copyright: RedBear is correct in that you own the copyright on your own work. Anything original pattern or project that you create, you own, regardless of file format, so it is up to you whether you wish to release it to the public. If you use a copyrighted pattern or image in your own work, you are limited to using it in the way it is licensed to you. For example, VectorArts allows you to load the pattern onto one computer, so that you can create woodworking projects, and allows you to carve those projects with any CNC equipment for sale. They do not allow the use of their work to create mass-production molds, or allow you to distribute the pattern file to others. This is why those of us who have used their patterns do not upload the project files, since doing so would create a copy of the pattern on more than one computer, and would allow others to use the pattern without licensing it.

Derivative works: If you create works with a copyrighted image or pattern, you have created a derivative work. You own the copyright on the completed work, but the copyright of the first image or pattern rides along as well. It may be possible to assert a defense against an infringement claim if your deriviative work is substantially different from the original. The test applied is based upon what an average person would think seeing/hearing/etc. the original work and derivative work side-by-side. For example, if I used a 1/2 second clip of a particular instrument from one song in my own song, it is unlikely an infringement will be found if an average listener would not consider it to be a major part of the song, and the original source is not readily identified by that listener. On the other hand, if I create a song such as "Bittersweet Symphony" (by The Verve), that incorporates an extended sample from another band's music (The Rolling Stones), so that the average listener asked to hum a few bars from the song would hum the sample from the original band, then infringement is likely to be found. How this applies to us: If you take a copyrighted photograph, and modify it for purposes of carving, it is still infringing (regardless of how much work use use converting it) if the average viewer would recognize that the carving and the photograph are the same image. The substantially different test depends on the end result viewed by a person, not the file formats, or the amount of labor used in converting.

Fair Use: The purpose of fair use is to prevent copyright from restricting the ability of people to communicate. Fair use is a defense to an infringement claim that allows people to engage in limited copyright infringement when it is against the public interest to enforce the copyright. For example, if I wanted to report about a film that is drawing a lot of controversy, playing a short clip from the film so that people can identify the film that I am describing, or get an idea as to the nature of the controversy, it is a fair use, however playing an extended portion or the whole film would not be. Likewise, republishing short excerpts of a longer work are acceptable if done for purposes of critique or commentary. AS IT APPLIES TO A FORUM LIKE THIS: Taking a photograph of a piece that you created with a licensed pattern and posting it on this board is likely a fair use, since you are entitled to describe and advertise the work that you have created, and unlike posting your project file, your photograph will not allow someone else to create one without licensing the copyrighted pattern file from the owner of the pattern.

I'm not exactly how much clearer I can make this.

[CallNeg151]

Sorry, I got started typing one of my long winded posts, and the forum moved on without me. I have some background in intellectual property, so I get my knickers in a bind whenever I see one of these discussions. For my own sanity, I second the motion to end this thread.

[Julie Coffey]

CallNeg for posting one of the best descriptions of it I've seen in recent past.

My compliments.

J

[Jon Jantz]

Thank-you once again, Redbear and CallNeg for having the patience to explain this correctly and thoroughly...

I move for this thread to close and move on to the subject of carving as well...

[rjp736]

Amen !!!!!

[RC Woodworks]

Thanks for a the info, as I said, the commercial logos I get the most request for is Harley Davidson. I have seen this pattern shared in this forum. Matter in my website I have a sign in the shape of the HD logo but I have slightly change the shape. Sorry for the poor images.

Still I do admit I have thought about selling signs with commercial logos. But if HD sued everyone they wouldn't have time to make any motorcycles! Anyone who has been to fairs or craft shows you have seen people selling intarsia projects with Lonney Tunes patterns and I have seen other sign makers who has HD logo on their example signs. I only have the one with a simular shape.

It has been a good topic but as Jeff said the subject has been exhausted!