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Thread: Dagger Handle- how to carve 2 different profiles with rotary?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Bremerton, Washington
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    Default Dagger Handle- how to carve 2 different profiles with rotary?


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    I am trying to replicate a style of dagger handle common with Scottish Dirks using the 3D tools in Designer. The top rounded part was easy enough but the lower portion of the handle has 2 different profiles. One profile follows the form of the top section of the handle, while the other profile has a "waist" . See photo. I have been able to get a flat section to carve by setting in 2 square carving regions and checking the 'Flatten button". However, I have not been able to figure out how to do the second profile- the waist. Check out the attached MPC too.

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    Thanks for your help- and thanks to Carvewright for yet another great tool!
    Mark W

  2. #2
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    Do you have stl importer? if so 3d model unwrap it and save as a stl and import.
    " The Hurdier I Go, The Behinder I Get"

  3. #3
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    Thanks James- I haven't tried that. I do have STL importer.
    Mark W

  4. #4
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    Default Another Dirk and Skien Dubh maker


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    Mark W,

    You are pursuing a project I've tried to make several time before the Rotary Jig was created, and now it's time for me to try it again since I bought the Jig. My prior attempts using scanning and then double sided carving left me with still too much hand work to clean them up. Up until now I have carved my various Dirk handles the old fashioned way by hand with chisels and knives. Very satisfying when it is all done, but Boy does it take some time.

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    I'll follow your project with great interest so please keep us up to date and I'll start experimenting as well. Thanks
    Fair winds,

    Capt Bruce
    Kinney deSigns http://kinneydesigns.us
    CarveWright START U Team Member.

    30 year USN SEABEE, the original Weapons of Mass Construction.
    Designer Ver 1.187 and 2.007, Ver.3.001 One 2009 B CW w ROCK and a 5th Year Anniversary C CW
    Rotary Jig, 2D and 3D, Tracing Probe, DFX and STL Importers

    .

  5. #5
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    Capt.

    That's a very impressive collection of handles! Carving them all by hand is even more impressive.
    Steve

  6. #6
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    Default Another Dirk and Skien Dubh maker


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    Hello Capt Bruce,
    Nice to meet another Scottish Dirk enthusiast.
    Wow! Your dirks are great. They would make a Highland Chief envious! Fantastic work- and I know- they are a major undertaking. You have to be (at least) a bladesmith, a woodcarver, a silversmith, and a leather worker to pull off a decent Dirk. You definitely succeeded! I attached a few photos of my own dirk.

    To lift some of that work load I'm thinking like you that there has to be a way to make a fine dirk handle/grip on the Carvewright. The rotary carver is the ticket but have been unable to figure a way to create every aspect of a carved grip in the software. See the attached MPC.

    So far I have figured out how to design the top 2/3's of the grip and I made a reasonably good looking celtic knot to wrap around it with minimal flaws at the "seam".

    The bottom 1/3 has been the sticking point for me. I'm still working on getting that "waist shape" with it's 2 profiles. For those not familiar with Scottish Dirk grips my MPC shows a bell shape at the bottom of the grip which is incorrect. The top 2/3'ds looks OK but the bottom 1/3 needs to have a flattish "dome" on each side where the triad knot is- instead of being completely round.

    I have been unable to get a satisfactory looking pattern from Designer- to STL-to Rotary as James RS has suggested below (but I'm still working on it). See those "flat MPCs" I have attached. Anyway- I'm happy to work with you Capt Bruce (and anyone else) in creating good dirk handles. After all, the world needs more nice Dirks!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Files Attached Files
    Mark W

  7. #7
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    Default The Dirk Handles Project


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    Great to hear from you Mark,

    I've long been fascinated by the Dirk (Scottish ancestry from parents on both sides) and I made my first one in a silver smithing course back in college at Carnegie Tech (the third photo above). You have made real progress in defining the handle shape and it gives me a better idea of what we need to do with the lower waist of the handle to approach the classic form. I'm still learning how to develop 3D rotary carvings so this may take me some time but with help here on the Forum it will get done.

    We need to think of that bottom third as an undulating shape right to left at surface height for the sides and then dipping down as a dished out arc beneath the two triad knot areas. The shape would have to be deeper for the bottom horizontal edge of the "arc" and not as deep for the top edge area. Easy to say, but it will take some experiments to pull off this base shape. Then the edges will need to be modeled and the surface decorations like the Triad made to conform. "Not a problem" he says enthusiastically while not yet having any real clue of how to do it.

    The same basic model shape could then be adapted and applied to the Black Watch style dirk handle and many others.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just a few from my collection. The Black Watch dirk was used at Waterloo.

    But don't you love full dress Highland dinner wear for formal occasions, wedding etc. Where else do you get to wear a 13 to 16" knife to dinner? And nobody else at your table is going to have that kind of a conversation starter (or argument ender).

    I need to see if the 123D surround photos process might work to capture some of these handles in the round now that I have the import software and rotary jig. I look forward to sharing our progress on this project Mark.
    Fair winds,

    Capt Bruce
    Kinney deSigns http://kinneydesigns.us
    CarveWright START U Team Member.

    30 year USN SEABEE, the original Weapons of Mass Construction.
    Designer Ver 1.187 and 2.007, Ver.3.001 One 2009 B CW w ROCK and a 5th Year Anniversary C CW
    Rotary Jig, 2D and 3D, Tracing Probe, DFX and STL Importers

    .

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Upstate NY USA
    Posts
    952

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Dubya View Post
    Hello Capt Bruce,
    Nice to meet another Scottish Dirk enthusiast.
    Wow! Your dirks are great. They would make a Highland Chief envious! Fantastic work- and I know- they are a major undertaking. You have to be (at least) a bladesmith, a woodcarver, a silversmith, and a leather worker to pull off a decent Dirk. You definitely succeeded! I attached a few photos of my own dirk.

    To lift some of that work load I'm thinking like you that there has to be a way to make a fine dirk handle/grip on the Carvewright. The rotary carver is the ticket but have been unable to figure a way to create every aspect of a carved grip in the software. See the attached MPC.

    So far I have figured out how to design the top 2/3's of the grip and I made a reasonably good looking celtic knot to wrap around it with minimal flaws at the "seam".

    The bottom 1/3 has been the sticking point for me. I'm still working on getting that "waist shape" with it's 2 profiles. For those not familiar with Scottish Dirk grips my MPC shows a bell shape at the bottom of the grip which is incorrect. The top 2/3'ds looks OK but the bottom 1/3 needs to have a flattish "dome" on each side where the triad knot is- instead of being completely round.

    I have been unable to get a satisfactory looking pattern from Designer- to STL-to Rotary as James RS has suggested below (but I'm still working on it). See those "flat MPCs" I have attached. Anyway- I'm happy to work with you Capt Bruce (and anyone else) in creating good dirk handles. After all, the world needs more nice Dirks!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Do you happen to have an 3d stl file of the handle?
    " The Hurdier I Go, The Behinder I Get"

  9. #9
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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,399

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    I think I have a start on what you are looking for but, not sure. I'm having a problem rounding over the shoulders on the bottom shape.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by SteveNelson46; 09-10-2014 at 08:29 PM.
    Steve

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,399

    Default


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    This is another variation using a couple of the Celtic weave patterns from the Pattern Depot. After sizing and arranging I applied a "Clip Carving: Inclusive" to the top pattern. If a little fatter handle is desired you can set it back to "none"

    EDIT: You can also play with the height and depth of the patterns for different effects. (see example Dirk-rotary-06.mpc).
    NOTE: To create the lower shape I used the Extrude tool.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Celtic Dagger Handle.png  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by SteveNelson46; 09-11-2014 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Added another example
    Steve

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