copyrights, patents, etc.; being greedy or being smart...?

[karossii]

Hi All!

I'm guessing this is the best place to put this topic... if not, well - let me know and I'll see if it can't get moved.

Anyway, I have a few ideas for some unique designs; not just the patterns, but how to use the carved pieces to create a fairly sellable (I think) end product. Something I haven't yet seen anyone do, but once the idea got out... well, just about anyone with a carvewright or similar CNC machine could replicate it.

There's a part of me that thinks, contribute to the community, see what else these artistic and ingenious people can do with my idea - how far they can run with it and develop it into the next great thing. I can still make a good local profit before the market becomes saturated, and then with the new ideas they have added to the base... well, we might all end up better off in the end.

Then there's another part of me, the greedy part, that thinks, keep this as private and hidden as you can, as long as you can. See if you can't patent, copyright, or otherwise tie up exclusivity for this new product. Make sure no one else horns in on your profit - and if and when they do, make them stop or sue them if they won't! No matter what else those brilliant minds come up with, they won't be cutting in to your profits on this piece!

And honestly, as much as I would like to say I am a great and generous person, right now I am pretty much evenly torn here; a 50/50 split on how to proceed. Do I share and let us all benefit from communal experience/ingenuity? Or Do I do my best to run with it on my own, taking all the risks but reaping all the rewards exclusively?

And then there is the complication of side issues. There's no guarantee that if I patent it, copyright it, or whatever else I can do to keep it mine, that someone else won't just see what I am doing and tweak it just enough to be legally safe, and copy my idea anyway. It happens all the time. Then again, if I try to go the middle road, and keep it as quiet as I can, but don't take any measures to ensure exclusivity... well it may be some time before anyone in the industry notices and copies me. I save myself the time and expense of trying to be greedy, but run the risks of losing some or most (maybe all) of the profits I could have reaped. And what if my idea is a good base idea, but I need the help/input of others, such as you guys, to get it marketable?

And I'm one of those guys who hates to alienate or upset people. I don't want to become that guy you all look down on because I put my business and profits before the community... yet I do need to have a decent income, and would hope others would understand.

So basically I am just going in circle. Perhaps for nothing, even... part or all of my idea may be a huge flop.

What do you guys think? If you had an idea for a new 'project' that is unique enough to be different from everything on the site so far, but simple enough that just about anyone could do it... would you share, keep it a secret, or try to patent/copyright it? Why? What would you think of someone (i.e. me) who did try to keep something from the community so he could ensure himself a niche market, with little to no competition?

[AskBud]

Hi All!

I'm guessing this is the best place to put this topic... if not, well - let me know and I'll see if it can't get moved.

Anyway, I have a few ideas for some unique designs; not just the patterns, but how to use the carved pieces to create a fairly sellable (I think) end product. Something I haven't yet seen anyone do, but once the idea got out... well, just about anyone with a carvewright or similar CNC machine could replicate it.

There's a part of me that thinks, contribute to the community, see what else these artistic and ingenious people can do with my idea - how far they can run with it and develop it into the next great thing. I can still make a good local profit before the market becomes saturated, and then with the new ideas they have added to the base... well, we might all end up better off in the end.

Then there's another part of me, the greedy part, that thinks, keep this as private and hidden as you can, as long as you can. See if you can't patent, copyright, or otherwise tie up exclusivity for this new product. Make sure no one else horns in on your profit - and if and when they do, make them stop or sue them if they won't! No matter what else those brilliant minds come up with, they won't be cutting in to your profits on this piece!

And honestly, as much as I would like to say I am a great and generous person, right now I am pretty much evenly torn here; a 50/50 split on how to proceed. Do I share and let us all benefit from communal experience/ingenuity? Or Do I do my best to run with it on my own, taking all the risks but reaping all the rewards exclusively?

And then there is the complication of side issues. There's no guarantee that if I patent it, copyright it, or whatever else I can do to keep it mine, that someone else won't just see what I am doing and tweak it just enough to be legally safe, and copy my idea anyway. It happens all the time. Then again, if I try to go the middle road, and keep it as quiet as I can, but don't take any measures to ensure exclusivity... well it may be some time before anyone in the industry notices and copies me. I save myself the time and expense of trying to be greedy, but run the risks of losing some or most (maybe all) of the profits I could have reaped. And what if my idea is a good base idea, but I need the help/input of others, such as you guys, to get it marketable?

And I'm one of those guys who hates to alienate or upset people. I don't want to become that guy you all look down on because I put my business and profits before the community... yet I do need to have a decent income, and would hope others would understand.

So basically I am just going in circle. Perhaps for nothing, even... part or all of my idea may be a huge flop.

What do you guys think? If you had an idea for a new 'project' that is unique enough to be different from everything on the site so far, but simple enough that just about anyone could do it... would you share, keep it a secret, or try to patent/copyright it? Why? What would you think of someone (i.e. me) who did try to keep something from the community so he could ensure himself a niche market, with little to no competition?

I think the best avenue would be to become a LHR Vendor. Look at any of the Projects, in the Pattern Depot for the standard Project PDF which is made by the vendor for the concept.

The process is not hard, but requires some forms & contracts being submitted to LHR prior to being activated as a vendor.
AskBud

[dbfletcher]

There is no "right" or "wrong" here. It all boils down to your personal philosophy. I doubt anyone here would fault you at all if your chose to try and market (and hopefully profit) from your idea(s), or if you chose to just contribute the community as a whole. There are certainly risks with whichever avenue you chose to take.... and there are no guarantees either. There are countless examples of truly superior products or ideas that fail in the marketplace. Sometimes because of marketing, sometimes they are just ahead of their time, and sometimes no one is really sure why it failed so miserably.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have not ever shared anything "earth shattering" here, but even the little things I do share gives me a great feeling of accomplishment. I have learned so much from this community that I doubt I could ever repay. I also fully subscribe to the "open source" and "maker" movements. I wish all idea and knowledge could be openly shared... but unfortunately we still live in a society that is ruled by currency.... so I also fully understand the need to make $ too.

Whatever you decide, rest assured, you will have the full support of myself.. and most likely the carvewright community as a whole (I know... I shouldnt speak for everyone... but you would be hard pressed to find a more supportive and productive community than what we find right here.)

[karossii]

I think the best avenue would be to become a LHR Vendor. Look at any of the Projects, in the Pattern Depot for the standard Project PDF which is made by the vendor for the concept.

The process is not hard, but requires some forms & contracts being submitted to LHR prior to being activated as a vendor.
AskBud

Bud, I had thought of that as a middle of the road option... I'd be able to sell the project myself locally and online, and charge others for the pattern. Problem I see with that is, while I could potentially make hundreds in profits for each piece sold, depending on pricing and whatnot, I'd only be making $20 or $30 or so per project/pattern sold... and then once the project/pattern was sold, they would be able to reproduce it infinitely, and compete with me for my retail sales profits.

Not having done any actual business with the carvewright yet, I have no idea if the competition would impact my sales or not. I may not get any online sales, and only do local retail sales of the product. And - at least that I have seen on the forums... there are very few of us here in Colorado.

So again, it really comes down to - is it considered poor manners, or bad form, or what have you... for someone to try and maintain exclusivity over something?



I'll give an example of my conundrum - say my idea was a combination of a new material to carve in and a new way to use that carved item - I am the first guy to think of doing a lithophane. And nobody else had been doing lithophanes yet.

This is the magnitude of the idea I have . . . or so I think. It is not a simple new pattern for a keepsake box or sign, etc. Not to diminish the value of those new projects; I intend to buy a lot of those old projects, and will soon be a POM member. But they're all fairly standard fare. I see things like the lithophane, the rotary jig, etc. as something above and beyond a project, and I believe my idea is on that order of magnitude.

Continuing the example, I could use the carvewright to make lithophanes, and share the idea freely; so now everyone with a carvewright or similr CNC can make lithos. Other people come up with ingenious ideas for curved lithos, colored lithos, specialty lightboxes, and so on, improving on my idea. By doing this I have created a huge competition for the sales of lithophanes, cutting drastically into the income I could have had if I kept it to myself. On the other hand, if I hadn't shared it and gotten all of those improvements from others, it may not have sold very well. And I would have been the only one marketing lithophanes... so they are less developed, less known, and less desired.

Yet if I had patented the idea of using a CNC machine to make a lithophane, done the advertising and marketing just right, and invested the time to come up with all of those added features myself (through trial and error, customer requests, or happy accidents), I could be making hundreds or thousands of times the income from the same idea.

[karossii]

There is no "right" or "wrong" here. It all boils down to your personal philosophy. I doubt anyone here would fault you at all if your chose to try and market (and hopefully profit) from your idea(s), or if you chose to just contribute the community as a whole. There are certainly risks with whichever avenue you chose to take.... and there are no guarantees either. There are countless examples of truly superior products or ideas that fail in the marketplace. Sometimes because of marketing, sometimes they are just ahead of their time, and sometimes no one is really sure why it failed so miserably.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have not ever shared anything "earth shattering" here, but even the little things I do share gives me a great feeling of accomplishment. I have learned so much from this community that I doubt I could ever repay. I also fully subscribe to the "open source" and "maker" movements. I wish all idea and knowledge could be openly shared... but unfortunately we still live in a society that is ruled by currency.... so I also fully understand the need to make $ too.

Whatever you decide, rest assured, you will have the fully support of myself.. and most likely the carvewright community as a whole (I know... I should speak for everyone... but you would be hard pressed to find a more supportive and productive community than what we find right here.)

Doug, I've been an on again off again member for 4 years or so now... and have seen the community just as you describe it. Which makes me lean even more to being generous instead of greedy here. As you said... we do unfortunately live in a society ruled by the dollar; and while I spend the majority of my time on sites like instructables or here where ideas are generally shared freely and with equanimity, it is a dream of mine (as most of us, I bet) to be able to live a comfortable life without having to spend all day every day working... Thanks for the support!

[eelamb]

Ken, most here are exactly as Doug said. It is a good feeling to share something here, then a very disappointing feeling when you find someone is selling your work on ebay for profit. If it is as you think it will be. Keep it to yourself and run with it. After all it is your design and if anyone should make a profit then it should be you.

[lawrence]

Great question- and it almost looks like something I would write (if I ever had a unique idea that is)

I've found that the idea is only a very small part-- for example, I originally was stoked at the idea of carving Roubo bookcases with my CW and pondered whether I should post about it here-- after all, no one else was making these for the mass market and I could see a very good profit making them as Ipad/kindle holders. I asked a buddy of mine that is an entrepreneur about it and his answer was that "for every successful business enterprise, the idea was only 1% of the success" I quickly figured that out with my bookstands...

My point being, if giving a go at a business is your goal, I would keep things to yourself... after all, that 1% may be the difference between your success and your failure.... If a business is not your goal, figure out what you goal is. In my case I (as Doug already mentioned) found that I get a great amount of satisfaction from showing others what I accomplished with my idea. Neither is in my mind truly more or less altruistic as they are both selfish in their own way...

Whatever you do choose, not everyone will agree with you. Trust me on this...

In the end it is your decision, but I do empathize with you.

Lawrence

ps - You DO have me terribly curious now though!!!! The 10 year old boy in me really wants to know what it is!

[bluecobra]

My first question, if I were in your shoes, would be: Would it make me happy?
Sounds silly but what if it's only the potential money aspect of it that's making you all excited?

The majority of successful products surprised their creators with their success. A lot of times it's something that was put out on a whim or with little intention of making a profit.

Maybe you can modify it so you can share a lesser version of it and sell a premium aspect of it?
Is there something you can up sell with it, or use it as an up sell itself?

Good luck!

[bergerud]

I tend to agree with Bud. If your idea is based on a specific carving pattern you have created, selling it through the LHR pattern depot would be the way to go. This method does protect the pattern from being copied.

If your idea is something really basic like carving plaster to make molds or involves a pattern that anyone can create themselves, I doubt you will be able to protect and I would just share it.

If your idea is really big, new, innovative, and is applicable to the CNC industry and manufacturing as a whole, you might try and get an established company interested. I think only a large company has the resources to actually protect patents.

[cestout]

I also think the LHR pattern store is the best option. My reasons: I don't want the hassle of the business part, protection - your concern, and available to a wider audience (ex. I wanted to get my Prayer of St Francis out but if I posted it on the forum - I've done that with other stuff- it would scroll on down and get lost, so I put it in the store for a minimum price and it stays visible). I have been a vendor for I guess at least 3 years. I have more projects than patterns, Bud has skillions of patterns. Some never sell others sell 1 or more every month. For me it is not a living, but it pays for bits and other parts. The fact that the same stuff sells some each month attest to the fact that we have new users every month. But you can't hide your income, you will get a 1099.
Clint