Copyrights- the law and the truth about pattern ownership

[lawrence]

Just one thing I think isn't quite accurate in Lawrence's post: It isn't necessary to have registered the copyright in order to pursue someone for copyright infringement. Having it registered would probably make such a pursuit easier but isn't absolutely necessary.

Then there's the one thing that really throws a gray are on things - the "fair use" clause. But even that doesn't give a person the authorization to pass it off as their own and definitely doesn't give someone the ability to sell it.

There is also something about 'derivate works' in the copyright law which gives some information on copyright issues on derivations but I'm really fuzzy on the details of it.

Sorry, I wasn't clear-- you are correct, you don't have to register to pursue, but you do have to register a copyright to bring a lawsuit for infringement.

a good site is here-
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html

dcalvin- the probe is a factor because unless you have permission to copy a piece from the designer, it is technically copyright theft to do so.

Folks- we all do it... what I'm saying is that unless the works are ours alone, we have no legal rights against someone selling the items elsewhere...

Even more strangely, many of the patterns come from google sketchup. The user's agreement specifically says that the models there can be used royalty free. This means that technically I am within my rights to sell the models I make from sketchup files

http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/3dwh/tos.html

section 11.1 c is the part about end users

I'm certainly not in any way casting stones here, I'm as at fault as anyone else.
Lawrence

[fspearman1]

I suppose I am uilty also. when some one asks me to build a piece for them we go thru pictures on the internet to find something they want and then I create a plan from that.

[lawrence]

So are you saying that when I buy images in the pattern store, I cannot use them on things that I sell?

No, I'm not saying that at all-- and I don't believe anyone else is either.

Good question though-- if any of the sellers on the pattern store have any input (do you have limits on how many items someone can make with your patterns etc) please add your input, but I have never seen anyone with patterns on the pattern store make a limit. I am really referring to the patterns that folks post here on the forum for free (as I and many others often do)

Lawrence

[Pratyeka]

what if someone is doing repair or restoration work on a house, and grabs a piece of molding and reproduces it by scanning it and carving it with the CW... then of course charges the client for the work... is that copyright infringement?

[lawrence]

what if someone is doing repair or restoration work on a house, and grabs a piece of molding and reproduces it by scanning it and carving it with the CW... then of course charges the client for the work... is that copyright infringement?

Technically, yes it is-- and even more to the point, you don't have to sell the item for it to be infringement... just making it (even for yourself or as a gift) is breaking the law. There are exceptions though (like public domain or in cases where the copyright has run out) If the item was created before 1923 for example, you can use the item (such as music) royalty free and without cost.

per the US copyright manual
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf
page 3, section 1, number
5 pictural graphical or sculptural work

Unless you are the original creator of the art, have specific permission, or the work is part of public domain items.

Again though, I'm not trying to say we all need to stop making and sharing patterns. I think there is a great degree of latitude that we all take with regard to copyright items and there is a fairly easy to recognize "just feels right" factor that many of us use. We all know that we shouldn't sell a picture of mickey mouse-- because it is both Trademarked and Copyrighted... and Disney goes after folks for trademark and copyright infringement. Harley Davidson and the NCAA both do as well. The same copyright protections exist for every other piece of literature, art, sculpture, etc. but most folks (including me) and companies create their own personal lines as to how far they are willing to go....

Heck, even the military symbols etc are copyrighted and though the military generally doesn't care and even encourages symbol use through vendors etc., if someone uses the symbols in a way the military doesn't approve of, they have been known to go after those folks (with a cease and desist order first) to get them to stop using their trademark/copyright.

If any of us were asked to stop by the original author of the work, I have little doubt that we would do so. IMHO, this is one of the differences between us and those blatantly collecting and selling our work and putting it on EBAY. Also, for the most part, original authors are unknown/difficult to find. I use work I find on the internet all the time, and I know I am technically wrong.... (with exceptions like with google sketchup where royalty free permission is granted) or it is my original work. This is my personal line, and I'm not judging anyone else's if their line is different...

http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Copyright-Infringement

I'm really sorry if this is causing any angst-- (and I promised Connie that I'd try not to bring up controversial stuff on the weekends any more... dangit... sorry) I was just trying top simply say "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" (referring to the recent ebay sales) This being said, I think though many of us are technically outside the letter of the law, we are still meeting the spirit of the law for the most part (heck, my avitar is technically copyright infringement) and to me, this is at least as important.

Heck, every time we sing Happy Birthday, we are technically breaking the law with regard to copyright... (seriously)... but again... there is a point where you gotta just shake your head and just do what feels like the right thing.

Lawrence

[ladjr]

Get back to carving. Can anyone make a carving of what we figured out here.

Just kidding. Lets get back to fun.


Leo

[brdad]

Kept civil, discussions like this can be fun but generally nothing does get figured out. Generally when it comes to issues like this, it comes down to who has the better lawyer, which most likely is not us.

[Pratyeka]

Just goes to show that this law is not enforceable in every cases. I see it more as a mean for the artist creator to block exploitation by someone with large production capacity. But in a case like the nipic.com website, where artist creators pool their creation for other artist to share, with the condition that the original image not be sold, but carvings made from those images can, I think the line is clear.

[dbfletcher]

I've been keeping quiet on this one. But I pretty much agree with brdad. This topic is seems to be quite cyclical on the forum and I'm sure those of us who have been around for a while are always thinking "Oh no.. not this again". But when we stop to think of how many new users we have or perhaps even users who just happened to miss the previous discussions, it probably isn't a bad thing to let this rehash itself every so often.

There are still a lot of people who think that if they make something themselves, even if using someones elses artwork or ideas that they are totally in the clear. Most often not the case and it is a good message to keep repeating so none of us ever have to deal with men in black suits knocking on our door.

[cestout]

I seem to remember something in that statment in the woodwoking mag. that said if you chang a designe enough to make it uniquily your own, then you can use it. The small tambour boxes I made for 5 of my grandsons for Christmas were chanded greatly in design and engeneering from those in the magazine, but looded similar (but mine looked better). I used the CarveWright, he used hand routgers with jigs, I used mortise and tennon and he used biskets, etc. I sent photos and discription to the magazine after contacting the editor. His box could not be built like I built mine. All music scores are copmprised of riffs and phrases thet have been used before, but assembled differently. An inspiration is not the same a copying. Give credit to those who go before, but move forward and improve the art.
my openion (or rasionalization)
Clint