Dagger Handle- how to carve 2 different profiles with rotary?

I am trying to replicate a style of dagger handle common with Scottish Dirks using the 3D tools in Designer. The top rounded part was easy enough but the lower portion of the handle has 2 different profiles. One profile follows the form of the top section of the handle, while the other profile has a "waist" . See photo. I have been able to get a flat section to carve by setting in 2 square carving regions and checking the 'Flatten button". However, I have not been able to figure out how to do the second profile- the waist. Check out the attached MPC too.

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Thanks for your help- and thanks to Carvewright for yet another great tool!

Do you have stl importer? if so 3d model unwrap it and save as a stl and import.

Thanks James- I haven't tried that. I do have STL importer.

Mark W,

You are pursuing a project I've tried to make several time before the Rotary Jig was created, and now it's time for me to try it again since I bought the Jig. My prior attempts using scanning and then double sided carving left me with still too much hand work to clean them up. Up until now I have carved my various Dirk handles the old fashioned way by hand with chisels and knives. Very satisfying when it is all done, but Boy does it take some time.

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I'll follow your project with great interest so please keep us up to date and I'll start experimenting as well. Thanks

Capt.

That's a very impressive collection of handles! Carving them all by hand is even more impressive.

Hello Capt Bruce,
Nice to meet another Scottish Dirk enthusiast.
Wow! Your dirks are great. They would make a Highland Chief envious! Fantastic work- and I know- they are a major undertaking. You have to be (at least) a bladesmith, a woodcarver, a silversmith, and a leather worker to pull off a decent Dirk. You definitely succeeded! I attached a few photos of my own dirk.

To lift some of that work load I'm thinking like you that there has to be a way to make a fine dirk handle/grip on the Carvewright. The rotary carver is the ticket but have been unable to figure a way to create every aspect of a carved grip in the software. See the attached MPC.

So far I have figured out how to design the top 2/3's of the grip and I made a reasonably good looking celtic knot to wrap around it with minimal flaws at the "seam".

The bottom 1/3 has been the sticking point for me. I'm still working on getting that "waist shape" with it's 2 profiles. For those not familiar with Scottish Dirk grips my MPC shows a bell shape at the bottom of the grip which is incorrect. The top 2/3'ds looks OK but the bottom 1/3 needs to have a flattish "dome" on each side where the triad knot is- instead of being completely round.

I have been unable to get a satisfactory looking pattern from Designer- to STL-to Rotary as James RS has suggested below (but I'm still working on it). See those "flat MPCs" I have attached. Anyway- I'm happy to work with you Capt Bruce (and anyone else) in creating good dirk handles. After all, the world needs more nice Dirks!


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Great to hear from you Mark,

I've long been fascinated by the Dirk (Scottish ancestry from parents on both sides) and I made my first one in a silver smithing course back in college at Carnegie Tech (the third photo above). You have made real progress in defining the handle shape and it gives me a better idea of what we need to do with the lower waist of the handle to approach the classic form. I'm still learning how to develop 3D rotary carvings so this may take me some time but with help here on the Forum it will get done.

We need to think of that bottom third as an undulating shape right to left at surface height for the sides and then dipping down as a dished out arc beneath the two triad knot areas. The shape would have to be deeper for the bottom horizontal edge of the "arc" and not as deep for the top edge area. Easy to say, but it will take some experiments to pull off this base shape. Then the edges will need to be modeled and the surface decorations like the Triad made to conform. "Not a problem" he says enthusiastically while not yet having any real clue of how to do it.

The same basic model shape could then be adapted and applied to the Black Watch style dirk handle and many others.

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Just a few from my collection. The Black Watch dirk was used at Waterloo.

But don't you love full dress Highland dinner wear for formal occasions, wedding etc. Where else do you get to wear a 13 to 16" knife to dinner? And nobody else at your table is going to have that kind of a conversation starter (or argument ender).

I need to see if the 123D surround photos process might work to capture some of these handles in the round now that I have the import software and rotary jig. I look forward to sharing our progress on this project Mark.

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Originally Posted by Mark Dubya

Hello Capt Bruce,
Nice to meet another Scottish Dirk enthusiast.
Wow! Your dirks are great. They would make a Highland Chief envious! Fantastic work- and I know- they are a major undertaking. You have to be (at least) a bladesmith, a woodcarver, a silversmith, and a leather worker to pull off a decent Dirk. You definitely succeeded! I attached a few photos of my own dirk.

To lift some of that work load I'm thinking like you that there has to be a way to make a fine dirk handle/grip on the Carvewright. The rotary carver is the ticket but have been unable to figure a way to create every aspect of a carved grip in the software. See the attached MPC.

So far I have figured out how to design the top 2/3's of the grip and I made a reasonably good looking celtic knot to wrap around it with minimal flaws at the "seam".

The bottom 1/3 has been the sticking point for me. I'm still working on getting that "waist shape" with it's 2 profiles. For those not familiar with Scottish Dirk grips my MPC shows a bell shape at the bottom of the grip which is incorrect. The top 2/3'ds looks OK but the bottom 1/3 needs to have a flattish "dome" on each side where the triad knot is- instead of being completely round.

I have been unable to get a satisfactory looking pattern from Designer- to STL-to Rotary as James RS has suggested below (but I'm still working on it). See those "flat MPCs" I have attached. Anyway- I'm happy to work with you Capt Bruce (and anyone else) in creating good dirk handles. After all, the world needs more nice Dirks!


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Do you happen to have an 3d stl file of the handle?

I think I have a start on what you are looking for but, not sure. I'm having a problem rounding over the shoulders on the bottom shape.

This is another variation using a couple of the Celtic weave patterns from the Pattern Depot. After sizing and arranging I applied a "Clip Carving: Inclusive" to the top pattern. If a little fatter handle is desired you can set it back to "none"

EDIT: You can also play with the height and depth of the patterns for different effects. (see example Dirk-rotary-06.mpc).
NOTE: To create the lower shape I used the Extrude tool.

Nice. That certainly shows how it can be done.

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Originally Posted by bergerud

Nice. That certainly shows how it can be done.

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Thanks Dan.

Well, I'm making progress. I've figured out how to round over the shoulders on the lower shape by applying a second horizontal extruded shape. All modifications were done on Mark's original shape and a big thank you for allowing me to do so. I'm sure having a lot of fun and learning a little in the process.

Steve,

Now I have two heroes in you and Mark for the rapid progress on this basic design. You understood what I was trying to express as two dished areas for the flatter areas of the lower grip. Your solution for rounding the edges of that area is also right on the money. Congratulations and our thanks.

Nice work! , might I ask what diameter are you going to carve?
I don't have the current rotary jig (yet)
I have the original one designed by Ed Baker, use it quite a bit

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Originally Posted by SteveNelson46

Well, I'm making progress. I've figured out how to round over the shoulders on the lower shape by applying a second horizontal extruded shape. All modifications were done on Mark's original shape and a big thank you for allowing me to do so. I'm sure having a lot of fun and learning a little in the process.

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Originally Posted by James RS

Nice work! , might I ask what diameter are you going to carve?
I don't have the current rotary jig (yet)
I have the original one designed by Ed Baker, use it quite a bit

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I just used Mark's original 6.5" length and 2" diameter. I don't know if it can be adapted to Ed's jig and it would be interesting to see someone do it.

The previous attachments are a progression of changes to show the differences in attempts and ideas. This latest file is a clean-up of the pattern sizes and placements including a clean-up of the transition between the upper and lower shapes. I have also been experimenting with the "Edit Envelope" tool to see if the Celtic weave pattern can conform to the lower shape and maybe remove some of the distortion from conforming the pattern to fit the parabolic taper of the handle. Still working on it. I may never carve it but, I'm sure having a lot of fun. It might make an interesting chisel or screw driver handle though.

Ed's uses a 2" diameter dowel, can you export that as a stl? Ill unwrap it and give it a shot. I'm using 1.87

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Originally Posted by SteveNelson46

I just used Mark's original 6.5" length and 2" diameter. I don't know if it can be adapted to Ed's jig and it would be interesting to see someone do it.

The previous attachments are a progression of changes to show the differences in attempts and ideas. This latest file is a clean-up of the pattern sizes and placements including a clean-up of the transition between the upper and lower shapes. I have also been experimenting with the "Edit Envelope" tool to see if the Celtic weave pattern can conform to the lower shape and maybe remove some of the distortion from conforming the pattern to fit the parabolic taper of the handle. Still working on it. I may never carve it but, I'm sure having a lot of fun. It might make an interesting chisel or screw driver handle though.

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Steve- great job on figuring that out! Wow! I played around a little with the double extrude (horiz/vet) but all I got was a mess. I'm still picking my jaw off the floor after seeing your Dirk #8! I don't know if I would have ever figured out that magical combination to make it work. I'm guessing you have hundreds of hours of Designer time under your belt- and it shows. I really appreciate the help from you and James on getting this to work.

Thanks Capt Bruce for posting more pictures. A Black Watch dirk that was at Waterloo. OMG! (as the kids say nowadays!) Just incredible- and what an interesting way to carve the handle so that it disappears into the hilt. Never seen anything like it. I also like all the maker marks (or Regimental marks?) stamped on the hilt and the pommel. There's a story behind each one of those stamps too. The dress dirk is a fine looking thing- you wear that one? There is a fellow up here in the Seattle area I met a few years ago that deals in a lot of Scottish memorabilia. His website is http://www.scottishsword.com/ . His business is known as Scottish sword and Shield. I bought a British Midshipman's dirk from him.

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Originally Posted by James RS

Ed's uses a 2" diameter dowel, can you export that as a stl? Ill unwrap it and give it a shot. I'm using 1.87

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I do not think there is a need for STL. Can't Steve just save it as a flat pattern that you would be able to carve on Ed's jig?

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Originally Posted by James RS

Ed's uses a 2" diameter dowel, can you export that as a stl? Ill unwrap it and give it a shot. I'm using 1.87

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Attached is a copy and paste of all the objects in the rotary project to a flat board. It is not ready for prime time as there are many issues including depth, proportions, extrudes, etc. I couldn't save it as a pattern either. I don't own all of the patterns and objects.

I had to re-draw most of the components but, attached is a generic pattern of the rotary dagger handle. You can add your own patterns for the details. The dimensions for the project are 6.5" length and 2" diameter with a .5" part-off diameter. I guess, that with the pattern, you can make it any size you like.

Hello Mark,

They say it's a small world and perhaps smaller still when one is hunting for and collecting Dirks over the years and across many countries.

The owner of Scottish Sword and Shield, Pat was kind and helped me trace information on a matched set of Dirk and Sgian Dubh in the pattern of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders that came in a fitted box to hold the two knives. It had taken me many years to trace the missing Sgian Dubh when the pair were broken up from an estate sale. They are back together now. The Argyle & Sutherland fought Andrew Jackson at the battle of New Orleans, they were the original Thin Red Line in the Crimean war, The Sepoy Mutiny in India and the Boer War in South Africa. It will be interesting now to use the pattern developed here to guide my work in duplicating some of these handle styles.

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Originally Posted by Mark Dubya

Thanks Capt Bruce for posting more pictures. A Black Watch dirk that was at Waterloo. OMG! (as the kids say nowadays!) Just incredible- and what an interesting way to carve the handle so that it disappears into the hilt. Never seen anything like it. I also like all the maker marks (or Regimental marks?) stamped on the hilt and the pommel. There's a story behind each one of those stamps too. The dress dirk is a fine looking thing- you wear that one? There is a fellow up here in the Seattle area I met a few years ago that deals in a lot of Scottish memorabilia. His website is http://www.scottishsword.com/ . His business is known as Scottish sword and Shield. I bought a British Midshipman's dirk from him.

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Hello Capt. Bruce,
Ha! Small world is right. That must have been exciting to find the missing piece in the set! I look at his website from time to time and drool on my keyboard over the dirks he has been able to acquire. That is an impressive A&S set. I love the blades from that era- rugged and fierce looking. As a Campbell, I developed an interest in Clan Campbell and A&S regiment items. I made a Clan Campbell badge from available Carvewright patterns. See photo. It is about 13" diameter and the boar is a second piece placed on top to give it depth. Heraldry experts will spot the boar's head is not the correct one for the Campbells of Argyll, but it is close.

I didn't really notice before, but what are using for blades? Are you forging your own?

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Originally Posted by Capt Bruce

Mark W,

You are pursuing a project I've tried to make several time before the Rotary Jig was created, and now it's time for me to try it again since I bought the Jig. My prior attempts using scanning and then double sided carving left me with still too much hand work to clean them up. Up until now I have carved my various Dirk handles the old fashioned way by hand with chisels and knives. Very satisfying when it is all done, but Boy does it take some time.

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I'll follow your project with great interest so please keep us up to date and I'll start experimenting as well. Thanks

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Originally Posted by James RS

I didn't really notice before, but what are using for blades? Are you forging your own?

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I don't have the knowledge to forge blades. I have used the "stock removal" method where the blade is ground from knife steel available here: http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/blades.html. Scottish style blades can be purchased from these 2 websites: http://www.atlantacutlery.com/c-90-k...-supplies.aspx
and http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/454/1 . Both of these companies sell Scottish style blades of the more "modern" style and are made in India or Pakistan. The old style blades like Capt. Bruce has are custom made and expensive. Go here to see some of the greatest blades that are currently being made (in my humble opinion): http://www.picturetrail.com/photos/vevans

My apology James, as I missed your post about the blades. The only one I have forged to date was waaaaay back in the late 60's for that black handled silver smithing project above. For the others I used both blades from Atlanta Cutlery and or stock removal as Mark W mentioned. I'm now a member of the Chattahoochee Cutlery Club in Atlanta and hope to keep learning more from my fellow members about making my own blades and making them better.

I'll probably never achieve the skills used to make these examples below but it's fun to keep pursuing the craft and to appreciate what others have done before you

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The second blade is engraved with all the Black Watch Regiment campaigns where this Dirk was carried. The name Quatre Bras (4 roads) is the town name that later became known as the battle at Waterloo.

Are you also a knife maker James?