QC failure... again.

[JLT]

Had another QC failure (my fourth), this time after both a new QC and new bit adapter. (I had dismantled my improvised JB-Weld fixed carving bit, in order to experiment with the 1/8" cutting bit). On this go around, I was only successful in getting ~6.5 hours of use out of it. That puts me at ~62 hours and 4 QCs.

On this go around, though, I followed the wisdom of the forum "elders" religiously, meticulously cleaning the QC after every use with a cotton rag, ensuring that the upper rim within the QC was clean to ensure a perfect seating of the bit, and using 3-in-1 as prescribed. Additionally, I ensured that the bit adapter snapped in place, even holding the bit and twisting the QC to ensure that the ball detents were deployed as others have prescribed.

The first two runs were in poplar, and ran for 0.5 hrs and 1.5 hrs, with no apparent problems. Bit adapter was solid at the end of the runs, and no sign of wear or ball marks. The third run, though, was much more telling, as it was a 4.5 hr run in poplar. Anyone who has carved poplar will know that it throws out more dust than chips. By the end of the run, the bit had ~1/16" play at the bottom, despite my extra attention.

Taking the bit out, it had the telling ball marks. I then went through the routine of snapping the QC up and down a number of times as part of my routine, and surprisingly a lot of dust material came out. (See picture).

This is only one data point, but I'm suspecting that since I don't use a downdraft system (I simply let the material collect, and occasionally clean during the run) the dust was able to build up inside the QC. This in turn probably forces some play in the bit adapter, causing the subsequent "micro" oscillation, resulting in the wear on the bit adapter.

So now the question I throw out to the guys (and gals) who are seeing hundreds of hours of use out of their QCs: Do you avoid carving the softer woods that create dust, and/or do you have a downdraft system?

R, Jon

By the way, after this last episode, I think I'm done with the QC. Have improvised a collet style chuck by purchasing a collet that fits the Z-truck shank, and using a cannabilized QC as the collet nut. Ran it for an hour to generate a lithophane, and the bit is as solid as ever. It doesn't lend itself to easy change over for a carve that involves multiple bits, but believe it satisfies my current requirement to switch between the 1/16" carving and 1/8" cutting bit.

[ChrisAlb]

I carve in poplar all the time as well as just about any other wood. One of my first projects was a 6'-6" long X 10" wide replica of the facade at Yankee Stadium. Carved from a poplar 1 x 12 and took 14.5 hours. No issues at all with the chuck. In fact I'm at almost 400 cut hours and still the original chuck, bits and adapters.

So I have to ask, what do you mean by "improvised" adapter with JB weld?

And yes, making sure there is NO impacted dust in the QC (At each bit change) is KEY to long life.

BB marks are caused by the adapter not being completely seated in the QC. The "jack hammer" action of the CW over poor patterns (lots of peaks and valleys) beats the retaining balls into the loose fitting adapter.

[JLT]

Chris,

Maybe I wasn't clear in my observation. (I do tend to be verbose!)

The QC became impacted with dust *during* the 4.5 hr carve. I don't have a downdraft system, and am drawing the conclusion that that was my issue with this last QC.

(Per the JB-Weld question, please see http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=7905)

Jon

[ChrisAlb]

Jon,

I don't have a downdraft system either and I see no need for one. I work in my basement. I use a shop vac and stop the CW every 15 or 20 minutes to vacuum it out completely. Thus, I never allow any significant dust to accumulate in my machine. It only takes about a minute to do this so even on that 14.5 hour carve, it didn't add any significant time to things.

It is however, a bit of a drag going up and down the stairs so often...LOL

But the reliability of my CW with no issues over all this time well is worth it. Besides, at my age, the exercise is "probably" a good thing...LOL

[JLT]

Chris,

I wish I was as fortunate with the QC as you. You have to hold the record!

I too clean during the carve, although usually do so during the carve through the opening up top. Be as it may, there is still swirling dust during the carve, and when I took the bit off on the last run, there was quite a bit of dust coming out of the QC. (Plus, wiping the inside of the QC resulted in a black residue coming out, a combination of 3-in-1 and dust).

So, if as you suggest the bit wasn't seated correctly in the first place, then I'll contend that the design of the QC is deceptive, as I got the tell tale snap when installing the bit, on top of holding the bit and twisting the QC clockwise (looking down) as a double measure...

R, Jon

[fwharris]

JTL,

Chris is right in that you should be cleaning during a carve, especially if you do not have a down draft system and the carve time is 4.5 hours. It takes very little time to do a quick clean of the QC during one of times you are cleaning out the machine. Plus it gives the CW a little time to cool off.

[ChrisAlb]

I never had to twist it. There has to be an answer here. that's just an amazing amount of chucks. I'm sure you probably do but, just thinking out loud here.

Do you check around the adapter screws for dust. Every time I pull a bit out, it has a little dust packed around the screws right up tight to the adapter. I know it seems silly but that can keep the adapter from seating as well.

One thing I've always had to do with my QC from day one is actually turn the chuck all the way around to see if the collar is even all the way around. It never is when I just load the bit. I have to actually pull it down on one side to get it even.

I'm sure you've been through the mill with all this but I'm just spitting out ideas. Like I said, there HAS to be an answer.

[JLT]

Chris,

Yeah, on this last go around, before each run, I meticulously cleaned the inside of the QC and bit adapter with a cotton rag, and then lubricated them with 3-in-1.

Hmmm... I did not have the 360 degree collar check in my repetoire. But I do spin the QC once the bits in, to ensure that the tip of the bit is spinning at a point...

R, Jon

P.S. I usually check the temperature of the flex shaft and z truck during the carve with RJustice's infrared thermometer, and they run at ~78+/- deg and 95+/- deg respectively throughout the carve.

[ChrisAlb]

Simply wiping it with a rag will not clean it out. I use a mirror, a toothbrush and even a toothpick. I'll also use what Al and I call the "slingshot" to loosen packed dust. Only after all that do I apply a very small amount of 3 in 1 and I only lube it at the end of each week. I've found that putting a thin film of 3 in 1 on the adapters with a rag goes a long way to keeping the QC lubed. The dust that falls out of mine is clean and dry. What your picture shows is clearly oil soaked dust.

Just wiping it with a rag will actually pack the dust in there harder. Then if you're adding oil to the mix...well...you get the picture.

[JLT]

Chris,

During these last rounds, I used a small piece of wood to clean (scrape) the upper QC where the bit adapter sits to ensure it had a good level place to sit, in addition to cleaning the inside with the rag.

I was lubing with 3-in-1 every time, but not heavily. But even so, it sounds like it was too much based upon your recipe...

Thanks for taking the time to describe your technique.

I'm going to run with my collet style chuck for a while, and if I come back to the QC, will research the forum and notes for a more complete picture on the care of the QC...

R, Jon

[Digitalwoodshop]

I just wish Rjustice would come out with a replacement Z Truck with a standard router chuck on it....

I see the day when someone designs a replacement Z Truck. I even looked at using something like the high speed spindle that the Rotary Engravers use.... It might be limited to smaller bits with this version but a larger version designed to plug and play....

4 bearings, a Z Belt retainer, Spindle, Standard Router Bit Chuck, Top Hat...

When I wall mount my Carve Machines I am thinking of mounting the Cut Motors up and behind the unit so the flex just droops to the spindle and no twist.

AL

[ChrisAlb]

I don't know buddy, I like the QC design and function. I think it would be a pain to have to use wrenches in such a confined area to tighten it up. Plus we'd then need a way to hold it from spinning (which, actually I've done with my spindle lock idea), but that was born from finding an easier approach to removing the QC.

If I were going to hope for any design change of the QC, it would be more based on making it easier to remove for cleaning. The mirror and toothbrush thing works but it's a bit of a pain. If I ever get a shop and out of the basement, compressed air would go a long way to helping with that.

To each his/her own in the end but I like it and for whatever reason (knock on wood), mine has always worked, worked well and continues to.....http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[JLT]

Chris,

Problem is still nagging me, plus you earlier indicated that you thought that the bit adapter was not properly seated.

So, after taking the QC off the machine, I began to examine its operation on an old Z-truck I had. I'm starting to think you are right, and maybe that poor seating is the root of my problems. The first image is the empty QC in the fully down position. Note that the outer collar is flush with the inner portion of the QC. This is as low as it can go, but oddly, you have to physically hold the QC collar with your hand, and then placing a flat wrench on edge in inner sleeve where the bit adapter screws are held, twist the wrench clockwise from top (ie, right-to-left). This forces the outer collar further down.

The second picture is the properly seated bit adapter in the QC, again with a nearly flush outer collar with the inner portion of the QC. It was anything but quick to get to this level of seating.

The third picture, though, is what was happening on numerous occasions when inserting the bit adapter. The bit adapter feels as though it is in solid (ie, no wobble) and I can't pull it out, but there is a definite gap (on order of 1/32") in between the outer collar and the inner portion. No amount of pushing further on the bit or holding the plastic collar and twisting the bit clockwise (ie, right-to-left) would seat it any further. The gap would vary from 1/32" to ~1/128". The only remedy is to take it out and try again.

During the initial attempts to seat the bit adapter over 100 times, I began to more aggressively insert the bit adapter into the QC, and it appears as though this gave me a better chance at seating it properly. But then this need to aggressively insert the bit adapter appeared to wane somewhat, as if the QC was breaking in, but it still required a firm, quick insertion for the solid seating, with about a 85% success rate in a further 20 tries. Moving to another bit adapter (although one with the ball marks filed down as that was the only other one I had, and inserting it 90 or 270 deg from the position where it inherited the wear), the success rate was only 35% for the first 20 attempts, but then 85% success rate on the next 20 during which I very aggressively inserted the bit adapter, followed by 90% success rate on the next 20, but less aggressively. It appears as though the bit adapter is potentially breaking in also, unless I'm just wearing out the QC... ;-)

In any event, am not sure what to conclude, except that extra attention and care has to be taken during an apparent break in period for both the QC and the bit adapter... and that the QC isn't goof-proof, which means I only have a slim chance of getting it right!

R, Jon

[ChrisAlb]

Jon,

The third picture looks like the right setup to me. the outer collar doesn't drop below the inner chuck when locked.

What I DO see appears to be Blue Lock Tight all over the top of the chuck and even looks like it's between the inner chuck and outer collar. Unless that's just a blue light reflecting on it from behind? If it is lock tight, this is NOT good.

Also, you shouldn't have to exert any real force at all to seat the adapter properly. It should click in with minimal effort when the chuck is cocked in the open position. Mine does very easily and then I just rotate the chuck and pull down gently to make sure it's even all the way around.

My CW is running right now for a couple hours. When It's done I'll take some pictures of it and compare the collar position to yours. But it seems like yours is correct. Darn old brain of mine can't recall without looking at it...LOL

[JLT]

Chris,

Yeah, that's blue light from a flashlight that I used to back light the photograph. It was the best setup I could come up with to clearly photograph the QC and show the gap between the outer collar and inner chuck. I'm liberal with the blue locktite, but not that liberal! ;-)

I am, though, very surprised to hear that the third picture is the proper configuration, as in the second picture, I am able to have the outer collar sit practically even with the inner chuck. The gap in the third picture was not always a consistent depth...

Appreciate you taking the time to take a snapshot of how your outer collar sits relative to the inner chuck.

Jon

[pine acres woodshop]

I like the second picture myself, I don't think the collar should sit proud of the rest of the QC. That's just my opinion. I think the third picture would cause the BB marks.
Mark

[henry1]

I have had same problem with the QC and now its my 3 rd one also the last one it had a ear broken were the holder is for the bit holder its were the allen screw fits in >>>has anybody ever have this problem

[henry1]

gona try to upload a pic

[henry1]

tried to upload a pic no go what is the best or how you upload a pic

[ChrisAlb]

Jon,

Here's my chuck with a bit loaded. As you can see the collar sits the same as yours at the top. One thing though, in the third shot you can see that the inner retainers on mine do not protrude below the outside collar at the bottom. In your pictures it looks like it does. This may be your problem.

When the chuck is "cocked open" for loading, the inner part hangs down. When properly engaged in the adapter, the collar comes down around it.

Mine has always been this way from day one.

[JLT]

Chris,

Thanks for humoring me. Nice pictures!

I'm actually more mystified than ever!

I won't have access to my QC to examine it until Thursday, but I do recall noting that the inner sleeve that retains the bit adapter screws was fully covered by the plastic sleeve.

I recall this to be the case, as during my initial examination of the QC on my extra z-truck, I thought that it might be worthwhile to experiment with a wide rubber grommet sitting in the base groove of the bit adapter to cover the underside of the QC up against the plastic collar, to prevent dust from getting in the QC during the carve. (Which I thought was my initial problem). So I paid attention to the extent with which the outer sleeve covered the inner sleeve.

When I'm able to examine it again, I'll take further pictures of the seating, and experiment with what it looks like when the upper portion of the outer sleeve is proud by what appears to be ~1/16".

(Of course, LHR is quietly making improvements, and there could be a possibility that my QC is a newer model).

Jon

[ChrisAlb]

Well Jon,

It would seem that after all my patting myself on the back for a long lasting QC, it finally bit the big one. Yep it's official, after 408 hours my QC failed about halfway through carving the second side of Michael's sleigh project which I have arranged on all one board.

Of course I didn't realize it until after it finished carving that second side and I went to change to the cutting bit for the cut outs. When I pulled the carving bit out I saw the tell tale dimples in the adapter. Not wanting to lose the 6-1/2 hour carve, I got STUPID. I cleaned the QC, put the cutting bit in hoping I could get through the cut outs. The bit seemed solid enough so let it go. Well...LOL...after it cut out the first side and one inner piece I could hear that things were not right. So stopped it. Yep, sure enough, cost myself another adapter. Fortunately, I had some spare adapters.

So, Called my buddy Al who just happened to have a new QC. Ran to his place and grabbed it along with the flat wrench and a #6 square drive bit he picked up. He told me he got it in hopes of grinding it down to make the tool for holding the spindle. So that's exactly what I did.

OH, by the way, I never turned the machine off so after changing the QC, I just hit enter and away she went without skipping a beat. Gotta love this puppy!!!.... http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

First picture, the only tools had to make the TOOL...LOL

Second picture, my old chuck. It would seem that just one of the retaining balls doesn't come out quite as far as it should. I believe this was the cause of the failure.

[atauer]

Chris,

Good to hear that you were able to save the carve. Can't wait to see the finished project. Hope the package that I sent you gets there soon.

[ChrisAlb]

Chris,

Good to hear that you were able to save the carve. Can't wait to see the finished project. Hope the package that I sent you gets there soon.

Yea well Alex, saved half of it anyway. That second side came out a little rough with the wobbling carving and cutting bits. So I'll likely have to carve a replacement for it.

You know it's funny. You know how when things change gradually over time we tend not to notice the change? Well, I've carved two of these sleigh projects on best. Now, pressed for time I'm carving the third one in normally mode. The normal one is SO MUCH nicer looking than the two Best mode ones...LOL

Yea I hope it gets here too buddy. With 3 sleighs to sand, finish and assemble by the 22nd (not much point in giving a "center piece" to folks "on" Christmas day...lol), and after the delays, I suddenly find myself having far less time than originally planned for.

[JLT]

Chris,

I was actually afraid that during my quest to divine the failure modes of the QC, that somehow or another I would throw someone off their routine, and that my problem would turn into a contagion. I honestly feel partially responsible for your QC trouble, like I jinxed you somehow or another...

Don't kick yourself on the follow attempt to finish the project. Everytime I've had a failure, except for this last one where I wanted to examine the QC, I've always attempted to rotate the bit adapter to another position (after filing the dimples) to have the balls grab onto a different spot. Unfortunately, it's not that forgiving once it's failed, and has humbled me numerous times.

Glad to hear, though, that resourceful to the end, you might have pulled off a hell-a-va save on the carve!

Jon

[ChrisAlb]

LOL....don't be silly Jon...LOL

It was bound to happen sometime. hey 400 hours on it, I'm not unhappy given all the problems others have had. I never expected it to last forever.

But I am pretty proud of my "in progress QC appendectomy" though. Pretty cool this coordinate driven system. I was as careful as I could be not to move the head but hey, changing a chuck? Couldn't help but move it around a little bit. But the old CW remembered where it was and all went well.

What I have noticed however is that I now think the QC had been "on the way out" for some time. The carves I did right before the QC & adapter change were rougher and the cut outs were off a little from end to end. I "thought" it was an X axis issue but I've never had a problem with that tracking. The third sleigh carve I did today was picture perfect. The carves nice and smooth and the cut outs dead on.

This makes me think what I thought might be a tracking problem, was actually the bit being "pushed" around by the wood even though I couldn't wiggle it by hand nor did I see any dimples in the adapters.

[roughcut]

You all know what opinions are . But I think the worse thing you can do is to use that bit removel tool . It allows you to force the bit adapter past the ball bearings even if they are not released. I think that is how I ruined my one and only failure with the QC. I now lift the ring and wiggle the bit until the bearings let go "I wear gloves of course" When that does happen it is time to use the 3n1 oil and clean the adapter . Not had any failures since......Like I said only an opinion..Wouldn't argue the point but it seems to work on my machine.

[rlane10347]

I agree with Roughcut fully. 3 months ago I posted a thread stating that if a ball was stuck the worst thing you could do is to use the extract tool and force it. It just damanges the QC and the tool holder even more. The tool holder is soft metal and can't take the pressure of trying to force it out against a stuck ball. Gentle taps or wiggling is the best thing to do.

[fwharris]

It would seem that after all my patting myself on the back for a long lasting QC, it finally bit the big one. Yep it's official, after 408 hours my QC failed about halfway through carving the second side of Michael's sleigh project which I have arranged on all one board.

Chris,

Regretfully welcome to the QC ranks:rolleyes:!

You did have a great run with your QC and best of all you had good old Al close at hand for the back up.

Also isn't it amazing how the CW will let you fix the problem at hand and then carve like nothing ever happened!

[Digitalwoodshop]

I got to join the ranks of the Bad QC myself tonight.... No BB marks yet but a good cleaning made the bit tighter but at the end of the carving the carving and 3/8 inch bit were slightly loose.... I have a Z to swap out when it needs it soon...

Only have a few more signs to cut this week, should be fine for now. Then there is backup machine 2.... 3 needs bearings.

2 AM and I am just finishing up. Got a rush order for Fire Tag Samples putting the Blood Type and Allergic reaction info on them. Could be an order in it for me.

The joy of a one man shop...

AL

[Spanglerg@hotmail.com]

First of all I'm reluctant to even mention the infamous QC chuck, fearing that the carving demon will reek havoc on my good fortune in regards to my QCC. My machine has approximately 70 operational hours to date, and I have yet to experience said failure ( knock on something). All these QC mishaps have aroused my curiosity. Having spent a majority of my career in the turbo-machinery industry, I've had an intimate interest in equipment failures for quite some time. Whether it be poor design; inadequate Quality Control / Assurance during manufacturing, mis-application, or the dreaded improper preventive maintenance. From what I've read on the forum there seem to be one common denominator, compressed air cleaning. I believe the combination of compressed air and excessive (bit fixture) lubrication mixed with dust particulate are a precriptition for premature failure. I realize that there is probably not the one answer to this issue, but I believe along with IKE's poll we can minimize these failures.



Note: Attempting to be pro-active I rigged a last word dial indicator to a properly installed bit and checked the deflection. Several checks indicated
(.005-.007) deflection, which seemed to be excessive for equipment running @ 20,000-30,000 rpm, but after visiting with my fellow carvoholic Rocky and checking his machine I'm not convinced my readings are accurate.



Greg

[ChrisAlb]

I agree Greg. I think compressed air can do damage to many things on the CW (and other tools). But more than that, I think you nailed it with too much lube. As you mentioned, if you go through a lot of the comments of folks having (more than normal) issues with the chucks, you keep seeing over and over how they state they lube it everyday or lube it after every carve.

No matter what "lube" you use (save dry lube which to me should never be used), it's moist. It WILL attract and collect fine dust that WILL pack into the QCC.

I've never used compressed air on mine. I only use an ever so small amount of 3 in 1 on a rag once a week or less on the QCC. I may even stop that all together as I've been noticing that just keeping a film of 3 in 1 on the adapters keeps thing from rusting. So the dust in the QCC remains "DRY" and thus comes out easier and more completely.

I got 408 hours out of my original chuck, we'll see how many out of my second one with my new "less lube recipe". With the coatings on the QCC, I really don't think it needs lube. The rust comes from the adapters as far as I can tell. So if we keep the adapters oiled, that will transfer to the retaining balls (the only thing that can rust in the QCC I think), and all should be good...http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon7.gif