Stuck bits

[Rocky]

I just got my CW a few days ago. Until today, things were going fine. After much reading and studying I made my first sign using Centerline. It went well, so did my 2nd sign. I then did my first carving using the 1/16" bit. When it finished carving the design it asked for my next bit to do the lettering. Here's where my trouble began. I had one "heck of" a time getting the 1/16" bit out. Even using the bit removal tool didn't help. I waited awhile to let machine cool down. After much jiggling, pulling, etc. I got it out. Then I inserted the 90 degree bit to do the lettering. The job finished. Now I can't get the 90 degree bit out. After my first 2 signs I used dry lube in the chuck as suggested by Jeff Birt in the Tips' notes. I am really discouraged at this point. I sure could use some help.

Thanks,

[Jeff_Birt]

You should check your chuck to see if there is sawdust impacted in it. Also inspect all your adapters carefully. Any signs of little dents is a signal that you need a new QC (and adapters).

[Rocky]

You should check your chuck to see if there is sawdust impacted in it. Also inspect all your adapters carefully. Any signs of little dents is a signal that you need a new QC (and adapters).

How does one check inside the chuck for sawdust? As for the adapters, they are brand new (I just received the CW a few days ago).

As I mentioned, the bits came out easily after my first 2 projects (I hadn't used any Gunk dry lube yet). The the problem occurred after I used dry lube on the bits and to wipe out the chuck. You are by far an expert on the CW, but could it be that the dry lube is causing the problem? After letting the chuck cool down for an hour or so, the bit could be removed. This can be an inconvenience when more than one bit s used n a project.

Thanks for the feedback,

[Jeff_Birt]

If you pull up on the chuck's collar and let it go so it snaps down does saw dust fall out? You can also use a small mirror to look up inside the chuck.

If you want to try a different lube I would try 3-in-1 oil as that is what CW recommends.

[Kenm810]

Quote: -- (After letting the chuck cool down for an hour or so, the bit could be removed.
This can be an inconvenience when more than one bit s used n a project.) ??

How hot is the Chuck getting, Is it uncomfortably hot to touch.
Mine has never gone over 10 to 20 Degrees over room temperature,
even after 4 or 5 Hour carving projects it's barley warm to the touch. Just wondering ?

Also a thought,
I read a post a while back that the flat on a Bit was misaligned or the Bit didn't have flats cut into it,
and made the set screws stick out a little to far and bind on the inside of the chuck when it was being removed.

[cnsranch]

Jeff's suggestion is a good one - imagine how tightly packed sawdust can get at 20,000 rpm. I always "snap" the chuck until now dust falls out. Actually, what does come out looks like wood chips - but is really packed dust.

RE the cutting head temp, mine got hotter than a firecracker last weekend - thought it may have been due to room temps in the 90's.

Would there be any errors, or warnings if it did get too hot?

If not, what could cause it to get hot, assuming it isn't supposed to?

[liquidguitars]

One thing that helps is to lightly tap on the side of the bit adapter to fee the grip of the sawdust on the QC and bit.

if really stuck I use a 7/8" flat wrench on the spindel, hold the QC and turn back and forth.



LG

[Rocky]

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

No, the chuck isn't hot at all, maybe a little above room temp. And the chuck's collar snaps up and down 'ok', and I didn't notice any chips falling out.

I spoke with a CW rep and he suggested I use WD-40 on the chuck. He also mentioned that they are in the process of redesiging the chuck.

Looking at the inside of the chuck with a mirror, as Jeff Birt suggested, it seemed like there was a small band of discoloration (rust?) around part of the inside.

Thanks,

[fwharris]

Rocky,

First off do not use the dry lube in the QC, use the 3-1 oil. The dry lube does not stand up to the heat. It will also cause the QC to rust. Use the 3-1 after you have cleaned out the inside of the QC.

Like Jeff said get an inspection mirror, so you can see up inside the QC, and a small pick like tool. Use the tool to scrape and pick at the saw dust that gets in between the inner and outer rings. An old tooth brush works good also.

Also snap the outer ring several times and pick some more.
I do the snap ring at every bit change.

cnsranch,

Your cutting head temp problem might be caused by the flex shaft lube getting down into the bearings.

[Kenm810]

Rocky,
This is a photo I just posted in another thread
It seems to fit here too-- Dry Lube and Dust

[liquidguitars]

I spoke with a CW rep and he suggested I use WD-40 on the chuck

WD-40 ? i would say not to do this unless the chuck is removed. remenber you have a board
sensor under the QC!

WD-40 and the carvewright do not mix well at all, the Carvewright is a computer so long term
spraying on the ICs is bound to cause probs down the way.

most of us I use 3 in 1 oil...


LG

[cnsranch]

FW

If you're right, is there anything I can do re the temp of the head?

[Digitalwoodshop]

Stuck Bits.... I just learned today the correct way to use the Removal Tool.... The Tool goes inside the slot in the Bit holder and you pry the QC Open.... New to me... Was using it by pulling UP....

AL

[fwharris]

FW

If you're right, is there anything I can do re the temp of the head?


The first thing I did when I saw that the lube was oozing out around the top hat was to remove the flex shaft assembly and run a rod with a rag (gun cleaning kit) through the outer assembly. Also wiped down the flex shaft to remove excess lube and removed the top hat and cleaned it and the top of the cutting head.

MAYBE SOME BEARING EXPERTS HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS!


As a test (not sure if this is recommended or not) I also put a little bit of white lithium grease in the outer ring of the top bearing. I used a small needle to push it down around the ball bearings.

I did notice that the cutting head did seem a bit quieter on the next carve.

[ChrisAlb]

As a test (not sure if this is recommended or not) I also put a little bit of white lithium grease in the outer ring of the top bearing. I used a small needle to push it down around the ball bearings.

I did notice that the cutting head did seem a bit quieter on the next carve.

Just an opinion here FW but I'd be careful about that. Those bearings are "supposedly" sealed and lubed for their life. Maybe I'm way off here but mixing lubes in them might not be such a good thing over the long haul.

[fwharris]

Chris,

I am not sure either that is why I put the disclaimer in there. If they are "sealed" why can I see the balls.

I think a call to the techs might be in order on this. Will update with that later.

[MikeMcCoy]

Stuck Bits.... I just learned today the correct way to use the Removal Tool.... The Tool goes inside the slot in the Bit holder and you pry the QC Open.... New to me... Was using it by pulling UP....

AL

I wasn't using it at all since it seemed harder with the tool than just pulling up the chuck by hand. I guess that's one of those "DUHs"

[ChrisAlb]

Chris,

I am not sure either that is why I put the disclaimer in there. If they are "sealed" why can I see the balls.

I think a call to the techs might be in order on this. Will update with that later.

That's a good question buddy...lol. I never looked that closely at them but I seem to remember reading that they were sealed? Perhaps the top hat is the upper seal?? I honestly don't know.

Look forward to your report.......

[cnsranch]

FW

I'll hold off on calling them re my temp problem until you get back...

Thx.

[Amonaug]

On the subject of Z-truck/spindle heat.

I got my CW back about a week ago or so and did a carve after I lubed the flexshaft correctly. After the carve I noticed this black gunk oozing out of the top hat and a higher temp (flexshaft & spindle) than I used to get before I sent it. I know it wasn't from overlubing the shaft because I lightly wipe it down and have never had a problem before. I took the top hat off and found a glob of black grease so this came from LHR with the grease in the top hat. Called LHR and he suggested a few things, mostly just keep cleaning out the top hat until it doesn't ooze anymore. I asked if this would hurt the spindle bearings and he (Levy) said it shouldn't.

It doesn't get as hot as it did the first few carvings so I hope everything is OK, still warmer than it used to but then it's summer :)

I'm anxious to hear what you find out CNS as I may add a bit of grease to the used machine which runs hot and a tad noisy.

[Rocky]

I'm certainly receiving a lot of feedback on my question......that's good, I'm not complaining.

There are a lot of varying opinions about chuck maintenance (please, I'm not trying to be critical of anyone on this forum).....a CW rep says use WD-40 on the QC and another forum member says avoid WD-40 on the QC. The January 2008 "Tips & Tricks" says "before starting a carving session it is a good idea to
spray some dry-lube on a rag and wipe the inside of the chuck. This will help remove any surface oxidation or sawdust that has settled inside", another member says it can cause rust.

It sounds like 3 in 1 is 'ok' to use....so far...:)

[bjbethke]

The two sealed bearings are the ones in the cutting head. Excess molly lube can damage these bearings and the cutting head will over heat. The ball you see in the Top Head are not the bearings, they are a latch to hold the flex shaft.

[cnsranch]

Couldn't help it, I went ahead and called support. Can't remember the name of the guy I talked to (CRS).

He said that I shouldn't have a problem unless the head's getting above 120 degrees. I'm picking up an infrared thermometer tonight to check it. I think I'm getting much higher than 120, if so, back it goes to Texas to get the spindle replaced.

[fwharris]

I called LHR also and talked with Robert (I think that was his name, very hard to understand him).

I informed him of the chat this morning on the forum about the over heating on the cutting head. He did confirm that it was mainly caused by the over lube on the flex shaft.

Told him what I did with the white grease to the top bearing. First he said that it should not be a problem if it is not over done. After a little more discussion about the bearings he said that LHR probably would not recommend it. If a problem occurs to call LHR to discuss and would probably have to ship it back to get a new spindle.

I asked him specifically if the bearing were a replaceable item and he said that they were not. They had to change out the whole unit.

I took the top hat off before I started up to check and the grease looked just like it did when I put it in there.

Well thats what I know, go to go, carving as I type, can't leave it unattended!

[Jeff_Birt]

Rocky, WD-40 has its place and most people have it on hand. It does a good job of loosening things up and keeping them from rusting but it also like to attract sawdust. I would be one of the one that would tend to shy away from it on the CW machine, not because it will hurt anything but because it could cause more cleanup work later.

The chuck and bit adapters do need to be lubricated on a regular basis. The machines manual even mentions this fact. CE recommends 3-in-1 oil, I have used it in the past and it does work well. I started using the dry lube on the vertical guide posts and then tried in in the chuck thinking it would also help prevent saw dust accumulation there. In my experience the dry lube has worked as well as the 3-in-1, but I recently bought another bottle of 3-in-1 to do more testing.

No matter what you use on the machine it is best not to spray it directly on the machine, spray it on a rag then use the rag. That way you don't get it everywhere.

[Dan-Woodman]

WD-40 also contains silicone, so don't get it on your wood. It will cause finishing problems as mentioned before.
later Daniel

[Rocky]

I've switched from Dry Lube and WD-40 to 3 & 1 oil. No problem getting bits out after the switch.

[liquidguitars]

Thanks Jeff I got that trick from you months ago!

LG

[lostway]

I just got my CW a few days ago. Until today, things were going fine. After much reading and studying I made my first sign using Centerline. It went well, so did my 2nd sign. I then did my first carving using the 1/16" bit. When it finished carving the design it asked for my next bit to do the lettering. Here's where my trouble began. I had one "heck of" a time getting the 1/16" bit out. Even using the bit removal tool didn't help. I waited awhile to let machine cool down. After much jiggling, pulling, etc. I got it out. Then I inserted the 90 degree bit to do the lettering. The job finished. Now I can't get the 90 degree bit out. After my first 2 signs I used dry lube in the chuck as suggested by Jeff Birt in the Tips' notes. I am really discouraged at this point. I sure could use some help. Thanks,
My experience is very similar to yours, only got less than 9 hours on mine when had trouble with the QC chuck. It galled the bit holder, and looking inside, all the ball bearings were gone. CW sent me replacement parts, but the special tool broke trying to get the chuck off. Have followed all their suggestions but have not been able to dislodge the chuck yet. When applying pressure, looks like the Z-Truck flexes the rail quite a lot and could distort or damage the alignment. I plan to send mine back as defective.

[Jeff_Birt]

Your not applying sufficient heat. You MUST break down the loc-tite holding the chuck to the spindle. You need an electric heat gun to do the job properly.

[jerrbitt]

For what it's worth, when I had a problem getting the bit in as well as out, tech support told me to make sure the red index mark on the QC is aligned with the red mark on the inside. You need a mirror to do this and the red lines should belined up or almost, mine is about a 1/16' - 1/8" off but supposedly that's within the acceptability range.

I haven't done it but was told you can adjust them if they are far off.

[jerrbitt]

For what it's worth, when I had a problem getting the bit in as well as out, tech support told me to make sure the red index mark on the QC is aligned with the red mark on the inside. You need a mirror to do this and the red lines should be lined up or almost, mine is about a 1/16' - 1/8" off but supposedly that's within the acceptability range.

I haven't done it but was told you can adjust them if they are far off.

[Woodman]

I bought Ron Justice's two tools and was glad I did. I also bought a digitally controlled heat gun so I could control the temperature a bit better and an infrared remote temperature sensor from Sears. I took the shaft off, put the square end bit in the top of the spindle head and used a rachet wrench to turn the spindle assembly slowly as I heated the thing up. I had the temp on the heat gun to 450 degrees and when the IR reader said the black nut was at 350 degrees I applied gentle pressure to Ron's wrench and the quick change came off slick as you please. I'd been apprehensive about that whole process before I did it because friends, I was in a brave new world when I was playing with fire on a $2500 (I bought the scanner and bit set too don'tya know!) new machine. Warrenty or no, I was nervous and wanted as much control over the situation as I could get. Blue loctite gets loose at around 300 degrees I believe and 350 seemed like a good number. I also bought a 12" x 12" mirror from hobby lobby and check to MAKE SURE those two red lines on the QC are by gosh lined up every time. I also clean out the QC between bits with a simple stiff bristled brush. Cleanliness seems to be a good thing with this device. Good luck! Pete

[fwharris]

Pete,

I also use a mirror when ever I put a bit in. 5 seconds of making sure it is aligned save a bunch of problems. Also do the old QC flex on every change. Makes the dust fall out and the next bit removal a snap.

About the QC removal, when I had to change mine out I was totally surprised that I did not have to put any heat to it at all. I thought I would give it a quick try with out the heat and with just a fair amount of force it broke loose. Lucky me I guess.

[Rocky]

The comments in this thread about aligning the two red marks is interesting to me. I don't remember anything in the manual addressing the fact that they need to be lined up when the bit is loaded. Evan when I spoke with the CW tech guy, he never mentioned it.


Since I switched to 3 in 1 oil, putting a 'dab' on the bit each time it's loaded in, I've had no removal problems (knock on wood).

[cnsranch]

Update on my post of
Friday.....

Purchased a digital thermometer to check the temp of the cutting head - LHR tech said that temps above 120 posed a problem, and mine's been running hot.

Anyway, two hour carve yesterday in a 90 degree shop, cutting head never got above 117-119 degrees - still felt "hotter than a firecracker", I guess I never knew just how hot that was :)

The $20 thermometer was worth $100 in peace of mind.

[Rocky]

I happened to have a digital infrared thermometer, so I recorded the temp of my cable at various locations during a carving. The readings ranged between 88 -95. My shop is in my basement and the temp there is around 74.

[Rocky]

For those wanting to check cable temp, you might try attaching the outdoor probe of an indoor/outdoor digital thermometer like what I tried (see photo).

[ChrisAlb]

For those wanting to check cable temp, you might try attaching the outdoor probe of an indoor/outdoor digital thermometer like what I tried (see photo).

That's a neat idea Rocky. I've found with mine it's warmest at the upper most bend in the shaft.

Of course if you just use a good Molly (crane cam assembly lube for me) and everything is OK mechanically, there shouldn't be any overheating issues at all.

46 hours since the last lube and still running cool....http://www.carvewright.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[cwandm]

I have been looking at the CW machine for a month or more and I have read about all the problems that everyone has been having. Like any machine there are problems, but seems to be more frequent with the CW. I am making several items for an art studio that requires various sizes of relief cuts .25" deep and the biggest is approx 8 x 8. This is for tile to set in. I am not sure if this would be any faster than my router production jigs I made to make the items. Also will the machine make the half circle cut at each corner and round over the edges as well. any comments on this.
cwandm:confused:

[MikeMcCoy]

Also will the machine make the half circle cut at each corner and round over the edges as well. any comments on this.
cwandm:confused:

It will do everything you are asking but I think you will find that your jigs are faster and a whole lot cheaper. I have two machines and haven't had any problems other than what I caused but anytime you put a fairly delicate bunch of electronics attached to a dust generating router and used in a shop environement, it's to be expected. The machines are relatively new and I think most of us bought with our eyes open.

[Kenm810]

I have foot operated plunge router table with jigs and fixtures and do the same tile insets that you described. An 8"x 8" cavity takes 15 to 20 seconds, and the OG. or Round Over edge is done with a router table in about the same amount of time, I finish the inside corners with a 90 Degree blade mounted in a bench top one ton arbor press. Total operation time after the stock has been cut to size is about 1 to 1.5 minutes per piece. The time shortens as the number of pieces increases. I've done the same thing with my Carving Machine and have form 3 or 4 of the cavities on one pieces of stock then separate them and the do the edging and 90 degree corners as before. At 30 to 40 minute per piece It's not practical for me. But I do like to be able to have the machine carve 3 or 4 blanks at a time for me to finish, while I work on something else. For me that part is a time saver!

[Don Butler]

I also had trouble with the bit holder after the first carving. After trying all the suggestions I called the factory and they immediately sent a new one. In changing it out I had only minimal trouble breaking the thread sealer. The coupler, when I got it out was a mess. The outer shell wasn't connected to the inside of it. It slid right off the top.

The replacement came very quickly and has been working well ever since.

Don't give up on your machine because of one small problem. This really is small compared to what might be expected with other, comparably complicated. machines. As suggested, if the tool doesn't break the thread sealer immediately, apply heat from a heat gun to soften it. Be sure you're working the tool in the right direction, counterclockwise on the top tool that engages the inside socket. I allowed the flat wrench to rotate until it was against the flat rail behind it and applied both hands to the socket wrench.

Best regards,

Don

[cwandm]

Thanks for your input. I still like the thoughts of the machine because of the other sizes. I use a lot of pine laminated for the items I make. How does it do with the machine.
cwandm

[cwandm]

I,m interested in your foot operated plunge router table. It sounds like something I could use. Getting close to retirement and want to add more equipment.
cwandm

[Don Butler]

I prefer wood species that carve with less fuzz, but pine works acceptably, just needs some sanding.

By the way, I use a sanding 'mop' on a mandrel in the ShopSmith to knock off most of the 'fuzzies', leaving very little hand sanding to do.

I hope you ultimately have a good experience with your CW.

Don

[cwandm]

Thanks don for the tip.
cwandm

[liquidguitars]

I am not sure if this would be any faster than my router production jigs I made to make the items

faster better and quicker? not shure but...

it clean up time in the shop today and I am looking at a box of old templates and wondering if it's trash
time.. can i recycle this old plastic?

LG

[badger]

Rocky,
This is a photo I just posted in another thread
It seems to fit here too-- Dry Lube and Dust

http://www.carvewright.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8168&highlight=quick+chuck&page=4 (Post #10)

bumping this only to show others how important this is to look at it. As Ive stated Im still an amatuer and because of that learned a valuable lesson the hard way.

Was finishing a two sided carve for a customer today on a church cross with a tight deadline for the 7th. finished the back side started on the front side and it started going great.

Now here is the lesson, read these forums and check this information regularly. Had I done this I would have learned to check the QC for alignment and known I was off. Well I broke two carving bits not doing this. And of course this is happening on a holdiday weekend so the earliest I can receive a new QC wont be until Tuesday or Wed next week just 4 days before the deadline.

Its not carvewrights fault its the user. However...I wish they would use a different mail service. At least FedEx deliverys on weekends and Holidays. And wouldnt cost me $58 for overnight delivery. However thats another problem for down the road.


Ive learned in life there are only two problems in life, those you can fix which are no longer a problem and those you cant. If you cant fix it no reason to worry about it.

Anyway, always let your customers know right away dont let them hanging til the last minute. I called and stated the problem and let him know if he needed to find another person I would understand but he said he would stick with me. He had an old cross that he needed duplicated and parts of it were broken so the probe and a little design work fixed that problem.

As long as it gets here I should be able to finish it since the back is already done and all I would need to do is delete it from the mpc and just do the front.


So bottom line is read the forums, if others are posting problems with their machines read the information it just might save you time and money in the future. I found this post from Kenny by search function and the image he posted and it was exactly what I needed. One look at his image and my part told me I messed up.

[Rocky]

Badger, I agree with your comments about the forum........it's certainly helped me.

What do you mean by "check the QC for alignment and known I was off"?

Thanks,

[badger]

The red lines.

[Kenm810]

Here's a thread of posts from three weeks ago,
that has some good Photos of what's going on inside the QC Chuck.

Post #6 and 7

Cocking the QC (http://www.carvewright.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8215&highlight=QC+Chuck)

[MikeMcCoy]

Here's a thread of posts from three weeks ago,
that has some good Photos of what's going on inside the QC Chuck.

Post #6 and 7

Cocking the QC (http://www.carvewright.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8215&highlight=QC+Chuck)


Definitely concur with that. I fought with my QC for months and that thread turned the light on. :)

[badger]

Heres the outcome of what not paying attention to a QC will do.

Finally got the old one out (with a little skin from my thumb left behind) and I didnt realize still how hard it would be to get out even with heat applied.

Anyway, 3 photos show how my red line was off a bit and how I even broke part of the QC and then the last shows just how much junk built up inside of it.

[chebytrk]

Well it looks like mine has now done the same thing. I notice after checking with a mirror that the red marks are off. Explains now why the 3 bearings sound loose. Does this mean that I need to remove the QC and send in? Just got this in Dec '08 so I hope that it'll be covered under warranty. Don't even think I have 30 hrs. on it. Also have two broken cutting bits...... very frustrating.

[Rocky]

Well it looks like mine has now done the same thing. I notice after checking with a mirror that the red marks are off. Explains now why the 3 bearings sound loose. Does this mean that I need to remove the QC and send in? Just got this in Dec '08 so I hope that it'll be covered under warranty. Don't even think I have 30 hrs. on it. Also have two broken cutting bits...... very frustrating.

It sounds like it should be covered under warranty. Good luck!

[mtylerfl]

Just to mention...

The red marks do not need to be perfectly centered with each other. I have found as long as they are "touching" everything should be alright, even though it appears a little off-center, the bit is seated sufficiently.

If you insert a bit and the red marks are NOT touching, then that's a problem and you need to reinsert the bit, and/or clean the chuck.

[cnsranch]

If the marks do not line up, is there a way to fix that, or is time for a new QC?

[mtylerfl]

If the marks do not line up, is there a way to fix that, or is time for a new QC?

Hello,

The red marks on my two machines' QC's have never been perfectly centered with each other when a bit is inserted. I have replaced the QC on both my machines now, and they are exactly the same way. When the bit is fully seated, the red marks touch and are slightly off-center with each other. Never had a bit fall out, never had loose bit issues.

So, my conclusion is that the marks are not perfectly centered, but do have to be "touching" when a bit is fully seated.