Cleaning bits

[Jeff_Birt]

The subject recently came up about keeping our CW's bits clean. One member shared with us that he has successfully been using oven cleaner and another chimed in with a warning that he had heard from a Freud engineer about oven cleaner being damaging to the brazing material used to hold the carbide on.

I thought it might be good to start a new thread on the subject to make it easy to search for.

I tried to do a bit of research on the subject today and found the following links helpful.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=32
http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2008/07/03/toolcribcoms-ultimate-guide-to-cleaning-saw-blades-and-router-bits/
http://www.simplegreen.com/solutions_cleaning_tips.php

In the article in the second link you will find a links mentioning the gentleman from Freud mentioned above. He warns against using any caustic cleaner (ph>7). They tested the effect of oven cleaner by soaking a bit in it for 24 hours. This seems like it could be an unrealistic exposure time to me as if it took 1 minute to clean my bit with oven cleaner I could do so 1440 times before hitting the 24 hour mark. Non-the-less it does give a decent yard stick to measure other cleaners by.

I found the MSDS sheets for Easy-Off oven cleaner, CMT blade dn bit cleaner, and Simple Green (the Freud seems to like). All of these are caustic cleaners! The ph for each product is as follows...

Simple Green: 8.8
CMT: 9.5-10.5
Easy-Off: 12.5

For reference pure water has a pH of 7, hand soap 10, ammonia 12, bleach 13 and lye 14.

Of course knowing the pH of the cleaner is only partially useful as there are many different brazing alloys that could be used on bits. There is also the length of exposure (needed for cleaning) that should be considered.

At this point I am able to draw no conclusion other than the fact that all these cleaners are indeed caustic and that the commercial cleaner (CMT) and Simple Green seem to be much less of a problem. I'll ask a chemical engineer friend for his opinion on the matter as soon as I can.

[Digitalwoodshop]

On that note I have retired 2 carving bits needing to be sharpened. Anyone looked into that yet? Thought I remember someone posting about doing a group of them because of setup time?

AL

[MikeMcCoy]

Jeff - I don't have time right now to search for the article but not long ago the makers of Simple Green came out and recommended that their product NOT be used for carbide. However, the newer Simple Green (can't recall the rest of the name but I'll find it) is safe for carbide. I did find the link (below) and it also refers to extended soak time and not just quick cleaning.

http://www.simplegreen.com/solutions_cleaning_tips.php

BLADES, CARBIDE & SAW BLADES
Simple Green has been successfully used by many woodworkers over many years as a good "spray - wipe - rinse" cleaner for saw blades. When pitch is fairly fresh (typically within a 12-hr period since deposit) it is fairly easily removed with Simple Green. Older, dried-out pitch is much more difficult to remove. We do not recommend long-term soaking of Carbide blades in Simple Green. Long-term exposure like this can possibly cause cobalt leaching that will, in turn, affect the integrity or carbide. Shorter term "spray/wipe/rinse" applications do not create that kind of problem.
It has been reported to us that long-term soaking of carbide blades covered with older, tougher buildup of pitch in strong, black coffee does a great job of removing pitch without harming the blade.

The other part of what I referred to above was at Sawmill Creek
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30881
I mentioned in my earlier thread that I was going to contact SG directly. I did and below is the response I received. If you want the files she mentions, PM me and I will forward them to you. For me, I am going to continue doing what I have been doing with the product, dilute, spray and rinse. I never soak anything anyway. Hope you find this helpful.

Dear Mr. Trantham:
Thank you for your inquiry.
Simple Green has been used to clean carbide blades for many, many years - because it does a good job of breaking down wood resins and sap.

However, the Kennametal Cobalt Leach Test shows that restriction should be placed on using Simple Green to clean carbide tooling. Blades should never be soaked in Simple Green, and we have never recommended that this be done.

Utilization of Simple Green at a 1:10 dilution ratio with water, sprayed on, scrubbed, and rinsed off, should not cause any damage or deterioration to carbide blades. With proper dilution and rinsing, there is not a cumulative effect of cleaning with Simple Green. Problems arise with too strong a solution being left on the carbide blade or tool for too long. Soaking should always be avoided.

In the past year (2005) Sunshine Makers, Inc. has developed and marketed a product called Extreme Simple Green. This product is a non-corrosive, non-embrittling product that has passed a variety of metals corrosion and embrittlement tests. Several of these tests are attached to this email.

I would recommend switching away from original Simple Green and choosing, instead, Extreme Simple Green. Blades can be soaked in this product without ill effect. The best dilution ratio for doing this is 1-part-Extreme to 3-parts-water. This same ratio can be used for spraying, scrubbing, and rinsing blades - or higher dilutions of as much as 1:9 can be used for this kind of application.
Extreme Simple Green is currently readily available online at Aircraft Spruce and Grainger.

I hope that this information is helpful to you. Thanks again for contacting us and for choosing Simple Green products.

Sincerely,
Carol Chapin
Environmental & Regulatory Director
Sunshine Makers, Inc. / SIMPLE GREEN

[Jeff_Birt]

I've added a link to Simple Greens statement on this. Note that they do not recommend 'soaking' in regular Simple Green, which relates back to length of exposure as I was mentioning before. Evidently soaking in the new Extreme Simple Green is OK.

[ChrisAlb]

My question is...why would anyone "Soak" a bit or blade? The reason I use Easy off is exactly it's name, I need something that removes pitch easily and "quickly". I guess that comes from the fact that my bit's and blades are always "on the job" and not in a shop. When I need to clean a bit it's because I need to use that bit "right now". I don't carry a "soaking" can of stuff around from job to job...LOL

At most, the Easy Off is in contact with my bits or blades for maybe 3 minutes. Like I said in my original post, I have blades that are years old, have been cleaned many many times this way and cut perfectly. I will confidently continue to use this as it's fast, inexpensive and readily available anywhere. AND, if you can use it in a place you'd prepare food, it MUST be safe. I can't help but wonder if some would use acetone or the like to clean their oven.

I really appreciate Jeff taking the time to research this and provide a thread on the subject.

I think in typical "scientific" fashion, the folks who have "tested" this have once again gone to unlikely and drastic extremes. Like when they were testing the effects of smoking they locked dogs in cages with muzzles that held cigarettes and made them chain smoke 24/7. Well DUH??? It's No WONDER they came up with such horrible results. (No, I'm getting involved in a debate on smoking now)...lol

[Jeff_Birt]

AND, if you can use it in a place you'd prepare food, it MUST be safe. I can't help but wonder if some would use acetone or the like to clean their oven.

Well, not exactly. For instance I would not hesitate to clean my kitchen counter top with a bleach solution, but I would never clean my blades/bits/table saw top with it. Bleach really likes to eat metal.




My question is...why would anyone "Soak" a bit or blade?

It seems that is what many of the commercial cleaners recommend; you dilute the cleaner in water and soak.

[ChrisAlb]

Well, not exactly. For instance I would not hesitate to clean my kitchen counter top with a bleach solution, but I would never clean my blades/bits/table saw top with it. Bleach really likes to eat metal.


It seems that is what many of the commercial cleaners recommend; you dilute the cleaner in water and soak.

Kind of apples and oranges in my view here Jeff. But based on your statement, would clean your counter with bleach and then lay a sandwich on it without rinsing it off first??

I wasn't saying you can eat Easy off, I was saying that it's safe for the shop and bits used the way I do. I don't eat my bits either...LOL

I agree with Ken, splitting hairs here.

[Jeff_Birt]

Sorry Chris, I was not meaning to split hairs. I was meaning to agree with you that the limited time of the exposure to Easy-Off would seem to be of small importance. I was just picking on your deduction based on food safeness ;), which I guess is splitting hairs :).

It is interesting that Freud was worried about the effect of the cleaner on the brazing alloy while Simple Green was concerned with cobalt leaching from the carbide itself.

If I were going to soak a bit then something like Extreme Simple Green would probably be the ticket. BTW, thanks to Mike McCoy for that information and bringing the whole subject up in the first place.

[liquidguitars]

On that note I have retired 2 carving bits needing to be sharpened. Anyone looked into that yet? Thought I remember someone posting about doing a group of them because of setup time?

In that same boat here. My local saw shop said no to sharping and recomended a CNC setup with a guy down
the street for the 1/16 ball. I have around 4 or 5 that could go out today.

Ron?

I picked this up at my local shop if it gets on wood
will stain it..

http://www.liquidguitars.com/saltdot/cleaner.jpg

This top was run with that dirty 1/2 bit last week "above" and had smoaked a lot. You can see some of the pitch and gunk around the pockets.
http://www.liquidguitars.com/saltdot/TeleRoutsR001.jpg

LG

[jstone]

I have use LPS Electrical Contact Cleaner. It comes in a spray can and evaporates very very fast. A little on a rag makes wiping pitch off a pleasant task. I then take a smiggin of car paste wax and shine 'em up for the next time I need it.

[Ron Baird]

I have used 409 household cleaner on saw blades for years with no problems, and it works on bits.

[jab73180]

does any one use a small brass wire brush, or maybe even our 3M bristle discs to clean bits. the bristle discs maybe a lil much and may dull the bit even on a low speed. i do have the 1 micron i think, thats not to abrasive. let me know what you think.

[ChrisAlb]

does any one use a small brass wire brush, or maybe even our 3M bristle discs to clean bits. the bristle discs maybe a lil much and may dull the bit even on a low speed. i do have the 1 micron i think, thats not to abrasive. let me know what you think.

All I've used for almost 20 years on all my bits and blades is Easy off oven cleaner and a tooth brush. Cleans them like new and a large can cost only a buck or two, Lasts a long time.

Spray it on, let it sit for a minute or so and the tooth brush wipes the pitch right off EASY. Wipe them with a rag and you're good to go.....http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[jpaluck]

Chris

Hope all is well with you...I took your suggestion of the oven cleaner a year and half ago or so and all can say is yep it works like a charm

[jab73180]

i was thinkin maybe the nylon brush that came with my dremel would work too, a lil less elbow grease is always good.

[Ike]

I use something way out of the norm! Brake cleaner fluid, that stuff cleans everything!

Ike

[Gean]

I use Chemtool Carburetor Cleaner. I have worked on a lot of carbs in small engines and this stuff will take the varnish out quickly so I thought I'd give it a try on my bits. Works like a charm. Spray some on a rag and on the bit then turn the bit with one hand (backwards) while holding the rag around the bit with the other....as Emeril says....BAM! It's gone!

Gean

[Ike]

I use Chemtool Carburetor Cleaner. I have worked on a lot of carbs in small engines and this stuff will take the varnish out quickly so I thought I'd give it a try on my bits. Works like a charm. Spray some on a rag and on the bit then turn the bit with one hand (backwards) while holding the rag around the bit with the other....as Emeril says....BAM! It's gone!

Gean

Gean that sounds good too, I am amazed what brake cleaner can do! So I bet carburetor cleaner would work well too!

Ike

[drwatkins]

Not to confuse matters more but I use Citrus Clean. It works great at removing tar and grease and will clean almost anything. I use it on my tractor engine, clean road tar from my truck (rinse it off the paint good), clean burnt on grease from pots and pans. Removes grease blood and grass stains from clothes. and it is as safe as any other good cleaners. Here's a link to their website if you want to compare it to the others. http://www.citruscleanit.com/uses
May have to soak longer than oven cleaner but it sure is easier on the nose.

[lawrence]

this came up a while ago in a magazine article and they recommended simple green "aircraft formula" which will not corrode brazing- I use it and feel a bit safer (and much sharper)

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Green-Extreme-Aircraft-Cleaner/dp/B001VXY9F2

Lawrence

[lhanner]

I now sharpen steel and carbide tip saw blades up to 16" and all router bits.

Make anyone interested good deal on sharpenings.

[chebytrk]

I now sharpen steel and carbide tip saw blades up to 16" and all router bits.

Make anyone interested good deal on sharpenings.

Can you give an estimate on price for sharpening 1 bit (carving or cutting) just to get an idea. I figure it's cheaper by doing several, but it will still give us an idea (cost, shipping, turn around time, etc).

[lhanner]

CT Shaper Cutters Wings Width to 1" Width to 2"

3 7 10
4 10 14

Spiral & Roughing Router Bits Spirals U/D One Way
Up to 1/2" 7.50
U/D Compression 12
2-3 Flute Roughers & Chip Breakers
1/2" and Up
Cut Off and Regrind 100% Extra 7.5

Router Bits Size C.T.
Up To 1/2" 2.5
1" 3.25
1-1/2" 4.00
2" 6.5
3-1/2" 9.00
Cut Off & Resharpen 75% Extra


Jointer & Planer Knives Steel .50/in. 3.50/Min.
Carbide .60/in. 6.00/Min.

Dado Sets Size Steel Carbide
6" & 7" 12.00 21.00
8" & 10" 14.00 25.00
12" 16.00 28.00

C.T. Quickset Dado
7" 13.50
8" & Up 15.00

Multi Spur Bits Size Steel Carbide
1" 2.50 5.00
2" 3.50 6.75
3" 4.00 10
4" 7.25 14.50
5" 9..00 18..00



Carbide Saw Blades
61/4 – 16 inches
Minimum = 6.00
Qty 1 2 3 or more
0 to 23 T = 6.00 5.00 4.00
24 to 32 = 7.00 6.00 5.00
33 to 40 = 8.00 7.00 6.00
41 to 50 = 9.00 8.00 6.00
51 to 70 = 12.00 10.00 8.00
71 to 80 = 14.00 12.00 10.00
0ver 80 = 16.00 14.00 12.00

[Nighthawk12]

Hi Lon Can you resharpen the 1/8" cutting bit & 1/16 Carving bits that came with the Carvewright. If so whats the price & turn around time. If you can I think your going to be real busy soon.


Thanks Jim