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roughcut
03-17-2008, 08:04 PM
Has any one posted
this url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1suOhVilSDg its a crude scanner but it sure would be nice to have a scanner that we could use without tying up our carv3write.
Bear with me I am going thru withdraws my machine is on the fritz.

wynpotter
03-20-2008, 09:40 AM
This brings up a question about scanning software. Does anyone know how the CW scanning software inputs the X,Y,Z info or what type of file types are usable for input. Does there need to be a file converter for other file types?
If anyone were to find a different scanner, how would the file be converted into CW use? Thanks Wyndham

ChrisAlb
03-20-2008, 10:09 AM
This brings up a question about scanning software. Does anyone know how the CW scanning software inputs the X,Y,Z info or what type of file types are usable for input. Does there need to be a file converter for other file types?
If anyone were to find a different scanner, how would the file be converted into CW use? Thanks Wyndham

Hi Wyndham,

I'm not sure if this done at the machine or software level but, the x,y,z coordinates are translated into gray scale to produce an "image". This image can be saved in any graphics format but PNG is the one to use.

But it's just that, an "Image". Although it may take you months..lol, you could "paint" the same thing the scanner produces in a basic paint program using gray scale. I have done so many times.

As far as, "getting the raw x,y,z coordinates data output", I don't know. As I said, I'm not sure where the translation is done. At the machine, at the software or both.

Hope that helps.
Chris

jlitz
03-20-2008, 10:46 AM
As far as, "getting the raw x,y,z coordinates data output", I don't know. As I said, I'm not sure where the translation is done. At the machine, at the software or both.


As the CW scans, it saves a greyscale image to the memory card. When the image is downloaded in Designer to the Pattern Editor, it's converted into an 8bit greyscale image. (The depth information on the memory card is >8bits.)

ChrisAlb
03-20-2008, 11:00 AM
OK, so that would mean the translation from 3D space coordinates to gray scale image is done at the machine. The actual scan on the card is already an "image". Cool!

wynpotter
03-20-2008, 11:51 AM
Then that would mean that any file like STL or OBJ from "David laser scanner" to 8 bit greyscale png or other 3d files like autocad, etc to greyscale would give the same results as long as the greyscale is calibrated to what the CW scanner produces.
Becauase of my inexperience with some of these programs like "blender" and the like, I have not understood how to relate the greyscale png it produces to what i expect to see in CW. Still have a ways to go, Wyndham

TIMCOSBY
03-20-2008, 09:34 PM
think that black will carve deepest and white will be top of board midway between (midgrey) would be half way into the board in general. that helps you think what will carve the deepest.

Amonaug
03-20-2008, 11:41 PM
Actually CW is backwards from most 3D programs.

Most 3D programs pure white (255,255,255) is the highest point. In CW the default is pure black (0,0,0) as the highest point.

A crude visual in profile (looking at it edge on instead of the top)


0,0,0
\
\
\
128,128,128
\
\
\
255,255,255

Would produce an incline with the highest point to the left and going down to the right.

Amonaug
03-20-2008, 11:59 PM
Has any one posted
this url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1suOhVilSDg its a crude scanner but it sure would be nice to have a scanner that we could use without tying up our carv3write.
Bear with me I am going thru withdraws my machine is on the fritz.

Sheesh people will make scanners out of just about anything huh? Actually as crude as that is it produced a fairly good rough valley terrain.

Here are 2 more methods.

This is pretty neat
http://www.david-laserscanner.com/

And with milk :)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Milkscanner-V1.0/

To get a real good scan with the David scanner you really need a good line laser that has a consistently bright beam and as thin as possible. Those from laser leveler are just too thick and produce a line of dots which would be bad.

Digitalwoodshop
03-21-2008, 09:03 AM
Now that is food for thought..... Very Interesting ideas.

That was a Mooooving Video.....

Boy I am really Milking this post....

AL

TIMCOSBY
03-21-2008, 09:29 PM
Actually CW is backwards from most 3D programs.

Most 3D programs pure white (255,255,255) is the highest point. In CW the default is pure black (0,0,0) as the highest point.

A crude visual in profile (looking at it edge on instead of the top)


0,0,0
\
\
\
128,128,128
\
\
\
255,255,255

Would produce an incline with the highest point to the left and going down to the right.


cause this is what i get. the forhead is white so it is higher in the carving than the eye area.

10589

10590

Amonaug
03-21-2008, 11:18 PM
Hmmmm, because when I take that image straight into designer with "import image" it has the white areas as the lowest parts. If I invert it then I have what you have pictured.

TIMCOSBY
03-22-2008, 12:05 AM
maybe thats the difference?

ChrisAlb
03-22-2008, 07:38 AM
Hey Folks,

After reading this thread I became curious myself. Now I design patterns and I know how I use the shades to get my results. BUT, I found something very interesting here. Bear with me as this may be a bit confusing. I hope the photos will help.

Viewing the first photo as columns, left top to bottom and then right.

First photo - Left Column:
I opened up PSP. Made two simple lines. The top at Shade 200 (lighter), the bottom at 55 (Darker). Then I imported it directly into Designer (no Editor) and you can see the results. The light line is cut lower & the dark is higher. Just as I suspected. So, Dark is top of the board and Light is the bottom.

Hold on now....

First photo - Right Column:
The top picture is what it looks like in my pattern list. I named it 200 - 55. Notice anything? Now the top line is dark and the bottom light. Hmmmm, Same carve. Designer has switched them around. So I double clicked it to open it in Editor and Yep, top line is dark, bottom line light. So I saved it to library from editor and it's the same as the import. So now, Dark is the Bottom of the board and Light is the top.

NOW....LOL this is where it gets interesting. I took one of my pattern test carves and scanned it.

Second Photo:
As you can plainly see, the scan on the right and the results on the left. BUT, here, The light areas are higher and the dark, lower.

When I imported the lines they stayed the same in the "Import" dialog box but once "Saved" into the pattern list, Designer switches them around.

So, all this tells me that as far as "Designer" is concerned, and so long as there's been no inverting along the way, Black is the bottom of the board and White is the top.

Whew....As most software design companies do, there are several departments each charged with designing a specific area of the program. It would almost seem as though the department in charge of "Designer" and the department in charge of "Pattern Editor", got the instructions of "Black & White" opposite of each other.

Hmmm, interesting. Is everybody now completely confused...lol

Chris

DrBob
03-22-2008, 07:54 AM
Hay Chris
Did you try this in version 1.120 as well?

ChrisAlb
03-22-2008, 07:59 AM
Hey there Dr.,

Long time....lol

Not this exact test Bob but since all of my scans were done when I first got my CW (prior to 1.120) and the resulting image was the same, I'd have to say there's probably no difference between the versions on this.

DrBob
03-22-2008, 07:59 AM
I got the same results in both
anwsered my own question LOL!!

DrBob
03-22-2008, 08:02 AM
Running my testing today on the sled.
I am very confident.:D
Will PM you with results today some time

ChrisAlb
03-22-2008, 08:04 AM
COOL!!! Can't wait to see the outcome. Does Canada allow for US patents?? LOL You might be rich one day.

DrBob
03-22-2008, 08:06 AM
Actualy I will PM you about that too

Jeff_Birt
03-22-2008, 10:05 AM
The B-W relationship when importing an image into Designer has always been backwards (no matter how it was imported). When I started working on CBPE I found out that internally patterns are 0 = transparent, 1 = lowest, 255 = highest. This can cause great confusion if you are trying to make sure certain things are at certain levels.

My best advice is to always make your design take up the full 0-255 range (zero begin the transparent background); with 1 = lowest and 255 = highest. Then when you import into Designer use the 'Invert' tool to 'undo the invert Designer throws in. Then when you use the depth and height in Designer you will always get what you are expecting. Designer expects patterns will take up the entire 0-255 range and if yours doesn't your height or depth setting won't be accurate (as you have a gap on one or both end of your pattern).

ChrisAlb
03-22-2008, 10:09 AM
Precisely!!

Amonaug
03-22-2008, 11:10 AM
That's not usually the results I get *shrug*

I created a square grid in photoshop with 17 sqaures starting at 0,0,0 to 255,255,255 at 15 unit increments and 0,0,0 was at the top and 255,255,255 was at the bottom both on import and saved as a ptn. This is 1.126

But to throw more confusion into the pot. Most rendering programs have a Z-depth render and/or an altitude/height render.

Z-depth is looking at a scene at normal eye level, when rendered closer objects are rendered darker than further objects. This seems to be how CW sees things as default.

But an altitude/height render which is viewed top down (ie directly above the object looking down at the ground) renders white as the highest point and black as the lowest.

From what has been posted in this thread it almost appears whoever designed the software for CW mixed up both styles of render.

Jeff_Birt
03-22-2008, 11:59 AM
The B-W relationship when importing an image into Designer has always been backwards (no matter how it was imported). When I started working on CBPE I found out that internally patterns are 0 = transparent, 1 = lowest, 255 = highest. This can cause great confusion if you are trying to make sure certain things are at certain levels.


Please re-read what I wrote earlier. Internally in Designer patterns are just height-maps (1 = lowest level, 255 = highest level). For some reason the import function is ***-backwards. Create your patterns as height-maps when you import them into Designer ALWAYS invert them.

Amonaug
03-22-2008, 12:17 PM
Please re-read what I wrote earlier. Internally in Designer patterns are just height-maps (1 = lowest level, 255 = highest level). For some reason the import function is ***-backwards. Create your patterns as height-maps when you import them into Designer ALWAYS invert them.

But that is what I'm trying to say. When I saved the pattern and use it in designer the 0,0,0 is still the highest point without any inverting. Are you saying even though the attached .ptn shows the 0,0,0 square in designer as the highest point it will actually carve it as the lowest?

Realise all I did to get this pattern was copy it from photoshop, used import picture, from clipboard and saved as ptn. There was no inverting in photshop, import nor designer.

Jeff_Birt
03-22-2008, 12:30 PM
No, I'm saying that you need to INVERT the pattern when you import it. When you get to the second page when importing the image look at the third button under 'Options', the 'Invert' button. Invert the pattern and then you are all set. :D

Amonaug
03-22-2008, 02:14 PM
OK I think I see the confusion at least on my part :)

We are in the scanning probe forum thus talking about scanning imports which are different than an import created in a graphics program.

As I discussed above there are 2 scanning/rendering methods used in programs.

A z-depth/distance mask which if you look at a scene (for example outdoors) near objects (highest point) are rendered dark and far objects (lowest point) are rendered light. This seems to be designer's default mode.

The second is a height/altitude render which is a top down view of the scene with the highest points rendered white and lowest black. This appears to be the scanning probe's default mode.

Thus what you say is true when importing the scan probe pattern (or any image where the white depicts the highest points) always invert it.

CW should have stuck strictly with a height/altitude mode for everything which would avoid confusion for people not used to working with greyscale height maps.

Jeff_Birt
03-22-2008, 02:20 PM
I agree sticking with height-maps would have been much simpler. My other point was when creating patterns always use the entire 0-255 range. If not you have blank section on top and/or bottom of your pattern that throw off what you think you should get with Designers depth and height settings.