Can't Decide Rockler Machine vs. CW

[hetzerguitars]

Rockler has introduced a new CNC routing machine for $2200 in their latest catalog. I got to see one at the store over the weekend. They are going to do a full demo for me tomorrow. I can't decide on that or the CW.

The CW has a huge con for me doing electric guitars. All my bodies are 1 3/4". I can't laminate them together. They are 2 sides (7"x14" glued together) from what I understand flipping them can be kind of hard. The Rockler machine, sits the wood in one place so I can do multiple passes.

The Rockler machine can only do 13x24. I won't need over 24" but 13" is cutting it close, literally.

The Rockler machine seems to be well built. Where as the CW seems cheaply made. Am I correct? It just seems

The Rockler machine seems to have more precise software. From what I understand I can actually work in measurements. Can the CW software do that? When I worked with it in demo mode it seemed to pull in a image and just resize from there. Which is a disaster waiting to happen when making guitars. 1/16" off and the guitar is out of intonation and worthless.

The CW has the probe which is REALLY cool. The RM doesn't have anything like that.

This may sound like the ultimate newbie question but on the CW how do you cut all the way thru the board? Do you tape it onto another board? The Rockler machine has a wooden table I can cut into (and sacrifice) if needed.

The Rockler machine has a 1 yr warranty. What is the CW warranty? Do I need it?

Any input would be real appreciated. I have the cash in hand ready. I can't find anywhere to see the CW in action. So all I can do is watch user posted video and read the forum.

Please Help. $2000 is alot of money for me to spend. And I want to get this right!

After seeing Liquid Guitars I think I can do it with the CW machine. It seems to be exactly what I want. But I just want to make sure I don't screw this up.

- Jim Hetzer

[Router-Jim]

I will point out one other huge difference. The RM must be hooked up directly to a computer where the CW uses a memory card. Having a computer in my shop did not seem like a good option.

[kyeakel]

Is the Rockler machine info posted somewhere on-line? I couldn't find it on their site. I'd like some more info on this machine. Since I don't have any info on the Rockler, it's not really possible to do a comparision to the carvewright.

I do have 2 other home built CNC machines in my shop. As well as 2 computers that have been running in the dusty environment for a couple of years. The carvewright card interface is a good idea for the home user who only has one computer and doesn't want to get it dirty. I have more than 8 computers, networking, machine control, home automation, and telescope control. I work in the industry, software engineer, and have enough computer parts laying around to build another 5 machines. My wife thinks I need a 12 step program to save me from gadgets :-)

Buisness wise, sounds like you should get a shopbot or similar machine that is made for daily use. This machine was designed for the hobby market. That's why it seems cheaply made.

Any CNC machine with X,Y,Z axis can have a probe. Look at some of the cnc forums, there are plans and discussions about this.

Sometimes Sears does demo's, maybe you are near one of us that has a carvewright. I'm sure someone would be glad to demo it for you.

[ChrisAlb]

Hi Jim,

First, I know nothing about Rockler. With that said, let me try to answer a few of your questions.

"The CW has a huge con for me doing electric guitars. All my bodies are 1 3/4"."

True, the CW can only cut 1" deep max. But, you can cut from both sides. Since guitar bodies are (usually?) curved on both, you'd probably need to build a sled to cut the second side.

"The Rockler machine seems to be well built. Where as the CW seems cheaply made. Am I correct? It just seems"

I think the CW is well made. Aside from a few hiccups here and there. Mine works very well and I must admit, VERY hard. The CW is relatively new and does have a few kinks but I've NEVER had a better experience with a manufacturer in dealing with a product. LHR is great at working with you.

"The Rockler machine seems to have more precise software. From what I understand I can actually work in measurements. Can the CW software do that?"

If .006" isn't fine enough, I guess you're out of luck with the CW. YES, you can enter "fractions" as fractions. Not being a mathematician, I do all the time.

"The CW has the probe which is REALLY cool. The RM doesn't have anything like that."

TOO COOL my Friend!!! LOL And a LOT of fun too!!

"This may sound like the ultimate newbie question but on the CW how do you cut all the way thru the board? Do you tape it onto another board? The Rockler machine has a wooden table I can cut into (and sacrifice) if needed."

The designer software has a "cut path" command that cuts though the board. Now in your case (being 1 3/4" thick) Again I'd have to say you'd need to cut from both sides. I imagine this would be a bit tricky with a curved bottom but I think it could be done. I'd ask LiquidGuitars on this one as he produces some simply AMAZING projects. While I have NO idea how, I figure, if he can do it, so can you.

"The Rockler machine has a 1 yr warranty. What is the CW warranty? Do I need it?"

The CW is 1 year or 200 hours. It has internal timers so you can track how many hours you have on it. I've only needed the warranty once after about 8 hours of cutting. The x-axis gears stripped but it WAS my fault (as are most of the problems you'll read about in here). LHR never even questioned me about it. Just sent me the new parts (Overnight) and I've been carving ever since.

2 grand was a lot for me too but looking back, I feel it was money well spent. Hope this helps in your decision and the best of luck which ever way you go.

Chris

[Jeff_Birt]

The Rockler machine can only do 13x24. I won't need over 24" but 13" is cutting it close, literally.

And the CW will do 14.5" x n.nn. The length begin weight limited, but more than 24" in almost any case.


The Rockler machine seems to be well built. Where as the CW seems cheaply made. Am I correct? It just seems

I would not say cheaply made. The CW uses servo motors on each axis, the Rockler unit steppers. A unit driven with stepper motors runs open loop. It has NO IDEA where it is at, it counts the pulses sent to the motors to track position but has no way to verify the position. So when something goes wrong, as in you set up a parameter wrong the machine will keep going. The CW's servo motors provide positional feed back so the machine knows where it is at and will shut itself down if a problem occurs. The CW also has a lot of safety features built in (like a cover, safety switches etc.) It also automatically measures the stock you put in, prompts you for the bits needed, zero's the bits automatically, knows how to do two sided projects automatically, etc, etc.


The Rockler machine seems to have more precise software.

I have not seen the software that comes with the Rockler unit but would seriously doubt that it 'more precise'. The machine is the limiting factor as far as precision. Stepper machines are limited by their step size and gearing. They may have software that is a bit more open though. In that you 'could' run G-code etc. I have yet to find a CNC control system as easy to operate as the CW.


Can the CW software do that? When I worked with it in demo mode it seemed to pull in a image and just resize from there.

The software used to assume that all imported images were 128 dpi. If you created your image this way it would import in full size. They recently changed this for the better in V1.125 so that you can specify the default size of the imported object. I had done this with the 'Life Size' feature in CBPE by scaling the image but CW is leaving the data intact and only changing how it is rendered which is better I think.

What ever machine you choose, neither is made to run production.

[John]

Please Help. $2000 is alot of money for me to spend. And I want to get this right!

After seeing Liquid Guitars I think I can do it with the CW machine. It seems to be exactly what I want. But I just want to make sure I don't screw this up.

- Jim Hetzer

If you are looking at $2000 as the solution, you will be disappointed with either machine. If you are looking at $2000 as an opportunity to explore CNC as a new method, knowing bigger and better will be necessary if the experiment works, then you might be somewhat satisfied. That being said, there is no bigger and better with the Carvewright. I don't want to speak for Liquid Guitars, but I believe he very quickly upgraded to a larger machine after buying a CW.

One other note. Steppers vs. Servos. There are many industrial machines that use steppers. The CW uses servos. They continue to be a major problem in my opinion. Z-pack replacement is a common problem. Repeatability is no where near .006. I don't know where that number came from, but it is an absolute joke.

[Jeff_Birt]

One other note. Steppers vs. Servos. There are many industrial machines that use steppers. The CW uses servos. They continue to be a major problem in my opinion. Z-pack replacement is a common problem.

Very true, many industrial machines do use steppers, but the drawbacks of stepper motors remain the same. Very few stepper driven systems employ feedback. I think the redesign of the Z-pack is a good thing.



Repeatability is no where near .009. I don't know where that number came from, but it is an absolute joke.

Not sure where your 0.009" figure came from, I copied the resolution info from the CW website below. It should be noted that the resolution in the X-axis is defendant on the quality of your stock. The stock must make good contact with the board tracking sensor.


The core capability of the CarveWright is as a carving machine. The machine configuration and control software are quite different than a classic mill. As such the terms resolution and accuracy are hard to correlate to what you expect from a classic milling machine. Our controllable resolution is .00025" on the Y and Z-axes and .0015" on the X-axis. The accuracy of any single raster carving line is on the order of .005"-.010" in the y and Z and the step width is between .005" and .010" depending on the quality setting you choose. When you are talking accuracy of position of two elements across a 60" board the value is even higher.

[Digitalwoodshop]

"Where as the CW seems cheaply made. Am I correct? It just seems"

Snicker Snicker....... Go ahead and get the Rockler..... your mind is made up.

AL


John,

Most of the Z Failures fall into 2 catagories.... The Circuit board soldered on the back of the Z is subject to extreme vibration and the solder joints and solder pads were failing on the jack where the wires were bringing in power and taking out data. See picture.

The second failure was the 16 pin cable bringing the power in and data out. The flat cable is made of thin flat copper circuit board material and has a life expediency of only so many flexes. I saw this at Sony. The 14 pin thicker cable will have a higher mean time between failures.....

So, Servos GOOD.... Vibration and Cycle motion bad..... On some stepping motors you can actually push the carriage and cause unaccounted steps to take place.

Open loop Stepper Good, Closed Loop Servo BETTER. I have years of Servo Experience in the Navy being a old Analog Fire Control Computer Tech. I went from Vacuum Tubes and Servos in 75 to Multiple Microprocessors in 95....


Saw something else in picture 1 that could have caused problems too... The Carbon like dust on the optical wheel could cause errors.... Something that could be cleaned by the average person if you are getting intermittent problems... Not sure where that dust came from?

[John]

Hey there Al.

I just find it absolutely mind numbing to think that after a year of selling 200 first run machines (the beta line, yes I bought one, the box said it was no. 40 of 200, and did the $500 upgrade) and now over a year selling 2nd generation machines, the same problems continue to posted about. Oval drill holes have been a problem from day one. Supposedly corrected, but evidently not. The board edge sensor, continues to be a major problem. My 2nd generation machine has less than 10 hours on it and I have had to clean that stupid thing twice. I use the downdraft concept and clean after every project. My projects are small vector only carves and are usually less than 5 min. I make more dust with a drill press than I do this thing. The close cover issue, I find to be the direct result of "cheap." The board sensor also is a "cheap solution" to an X axis that has so much lash it has no idea where it is without the board sensor. Even the concept that every board you may want to "carve" on has to be a perfect rectangle, I find to be "cheap." (The cheap solution - build a cheap sled.) The overall picture for me is, the current (and past) system CW sells is a very cheap, plastic machine, with a very EXPENSIVE, but quite limited, proprietary software package. I doubt CW will ever open the door to third party operating software. The software is their golden egg. What I do expect to happen is someone will come up with a new controller for the machine that will run directly from a computer using third party software. That is a huge opportunity for someone. I bet it's in the works somewhere.

[Teach]

Hi guys and gals,
I do not yet own a carvewright, but I do have access to a Shopbot at the school where I teach. If you are doing production work or even 1 off stuff, that is large, 4x4 or 4x8, then you need the Shopbot. If you need something less than the Carvewright might do the job. I'm not going to say that the Shopbot is easier to learn, or that it has had its "growing problems" because it has. But it gets it done when you need to get it done. The Compucarve is more hobbiest, and was clearly not intentioned for "production". The problems come with what you can afford, and what do you really want/need. I tend to agree with an earlier post, for $2000.00 this is what you can expect....and while I have yet to see the Rockler system, I expect it will have some 'growing' pains too. The compucarve fits the bill for those of us who like and are not afraid to tinker. We have one in the middleschool and they love it.
So.... I will likely buy one of these first,,,to see if it does what I want, before I go for the big bucks stuff.
Teach

[hetzerguitars]

I bought it. I went to Woodcraft and bought the CW and the Probe. It will be there on Tuesday. I can't wait.

- Jim
Hetzerguitars.com

[hetzerguitars]

Thanks everyone for the input. Between the private messages and posts I made up my mind. So thanks everyone. I am sure on Wednesday I will have questions.

I have the CW software on my PC I'd love to use but I am beyond my 30 days.
So I must wait...

- Jim

[cabnet636]

have you checked out the romaxx cnc, i went carvewright and eventually bought a 4x8 industrial machine (camaster) jim mcgrew www.mcgrewwoodwork.com

[www.go3d.us]

I got my CW at sears.com for only $1519 :) brand new with secret saving code.