What is Height and its Significance?

[twinpeaksenterprises, LLC]

What is the significance of the height adjustment and how can that improve font appearance? I searched high and low to no avail to figure this out. Isnt the height maximum 100 since the height cant actually be higher than the surface of the board. Please help theres not much wood left.....:confused:

[Cmdr.Rav]

What is the significance of the height adjustment and how can that improve font appearance? I searched high and low to no avail to figure this out. Isnt the height maximum 100 since the height cant actually be higher than the surface of the board. Please help theres not much wood left.....:confused:



With raised letters you can adjust the height from 100 to max 999 so try testing some lettering. Script type try 500-750. More block type you can go higher

Rav

[deemon328]

Height is relative based on the depth you choose. So, if you choose a depth of .250, the height of your elements will change from 0 to .250 by changing the height setting from 1 to 999.

This is especially useful if you have multiple elements in the same area and want one element to be above another.

[TerryT]

From my experience the height setting is related to the height of the pattern, from bottom to top, rather than the height, or surface, of the board. Most pattens when placed on the board are below the board surface. increasing the height of the pattern, in effect, stretches the pattern up towards the board surface. I have found that stretching the pattern too much may distort it in some cases and may cause it to carve badly.

[DocWheeler]

Note: The description that follows is for earlier versions of Designer (1.119 etc), version 1.125 does not work this way.

There are several posts on this subject and if I recall, most agree with the following:
The height number is based on a 0.25 carving depth where 0 is no height and 100 (or more) is 0.25 high - full height for the depth.
The next step is not intuitive in that a depth of 0.50 has a height range of 0 to 200 (2 X 100) where 0 is no height, 100 is 0.25 high, and 200 is full (0.5) height for the 0.50 depth.
A depth of 0.75 would then take a height of 300 (3 X 100) to have the highest part of the carving to come to the surface.
A height of 999 will simply always make a figure full height, no matter what the depth is.

[liquidguitars]

increasing the height of the pattern, in effect, stretches the pattern up towards the board surface

This sound right to me..


I also think it controls how your image is projected in the "Z" plane on the board.
like holding a can of spray paint and moving it up or down giving the image "fall off" and depth.

LG

[DocWheeler]

LG and the rest of you,

I was wrong, (muttering to myself) I swear that it use to work as I described above, but I made what I think were the same tests and what I stated previously is now incorrect.

I have no idea if there was a programming change since 1.120 or I was having another Senior-Moment. Bottom-line is that 100 is "surface" in 1.125 no matter what the depth is.

This has to be confusing to folks Searching for older posts where using 999 brought the carving to the surface, that does not make sense anymore even it would obviously work.

Sorry for the incorrect post.

[twinpeaksenterprises, LLC]

Thanks for the clarification there Doc, I was thinking about that all day about how the setting of 750-999 height would somehow improve the quality. I have no experience with 1.120, only 1.125. I do now understand the setting of 0-100.

[DocWheeler]

Glad you saw my post, I need a copy of Designer at work to test things before posting. I think I now understand why my latest designs did not work as expected.

[Cmdr.Rav]

Wow Doc, now I am confused!! I guess I am just naive? I have always just adjusted the letters or pattern according to how fine lined it was or was not! I found the higher the setting on say script lettering the more chipping.

Then on the other hand say a raised block lettering the lower the setting the more sunk in the font. I never calculated how deep the cut to the heigth of the the raised letter!!

Thanks for making me think!!!

Rav

[liquidguitars]

Doc, I am still confused ;) I did like the way Jeff's CB
utility worked, seemed to make the patterns puff out more.
oh well..

LG

[hotpop]

Height has always be confusing to me also. In Designer it is sometimes difficult to see the effect of a height change. What I do sometimes is drag a pattern or lettering past the edge of the board then zoom in and look at the edge then play with the height. Once I see the height I like, I reposition the pattern or lettering.

[Lin]

Here's a copy and paste of an old post from about a year ago that explains the height/depth relationship pretty good. read below:
Lin

Its a relation thing (I'm 96.743% sure). 100 = 0-.250". If you increase the depth to .5 then 100 will result in .250" being the top of the carved area and .500" being the bottom. Height of 200 with a .500" depth = .000" top of carving and .500" being the bottom; Height 150 = .125-.500".

Here is a list I use to allow carving the full depth (.000"-depth):

Depth Height
.125" 50
.250" 100
.375" 150
.500" 200
.625" 250
.750" 300

I suppose you could say increase the Height by 50 for every 1/8" (.125") you increase the depth. Or you could just cheat and always set your heights to 999. If you overset your height there is no problems that I have found.

These numbers are not set in stone however. All of my handmade patterns follow the chart. But my VA3D elk can gain as much as height=500 on a .500" depth.

If you have concerns, use Rotate Tool to look down the surface of the board and judge that way.

Another to approach is to increase height the same % you increase the depth. .375 is 150% of .250, so increase the height by 150%. If I set depth to .500, I would start with height 200. That keeps the top of the carving near the original surface of the board.
__________________

[liquidguitars]

Lin, we are thinking its more like a image map Z depth
height value. I never used this table much as it looks as if the maps perspective will also change as you move it in or out.

LG

[Lin]

LG...so this table is inacurrate? I generally just play with the height adustment and run my cursor over the carve region and the top of the carved areas and watch the z depths to see the difference to get what I'm after...mostly when dealing with text but I thought this table was fairly accurate?
Lin

[liquidguitars]

I guess so, but we need to add map scaling to the chart??


I generally just play with the height adustment and run my cursor over the carve region and the top of the carved areas and watch the z depths to see the difference to get what I'm after

Yea that's what I do.. it can be hard to see..

Sometimes I put a temp carve box, set the depth you need as a way to check..

LG

[Jeff_Birt]

I've copied over a post I made on AllCW.com several months ago. I figured out the depth/height relationship mathmatically.



While working on a new feature for CBPE I needed to figure out the mathematical relationship between Depth and Designer. I made up a test pattern of three 100x100 pixel squares; one black, one 50% grey and one white. I imported this pattern into Designer using the default settings. I did invert the pattern to bring back the correct white = 0, black = 255 relationship, which is how a pattern is set up internally so I still can't figure out why Designer inverts it on import. The pattern was placed on the board at its default depth of 0.25" and a number of measurements taken at various heights. The Depth was increased to 1" and the process repeated.

As you know a pattern is basically an 8-bit (0-255) grey scale image where the level of grey determines the height of a given point. If your pattern takes up the entire range of grey then you can use the following formula to accurately set both the depth (bottom of) and height (top of) a pattern when placing it on the board. If your pattern does not span the entire grey scale then this will not be accurate.

I'm working on a way to distribute a pattern over the entire grey scale and have the ability to set its default settings so that, when it place on the Board in Designer, you will have a known Depth and Height. I thought others might benefit from knowing the exact relationship between Depth and Height for placing patterns.


actualDepth = -0.0025 * Height * (greyLevel/255) +Depth

actualDepth = Depth from top of board at given point
greyLevel = level of grey of given point (0 to 255)
Height = Height setting in Designer
Depth = Depth setting in Designer

[Dyna Rider]

Hi Twinpeaks

I’m not a sign maker so some of my terminology my not be technically correct. If my explanation makes little or no sense or adds to your confusion feel free to comment. You can find a somewhat similar explanation in the Help section under Depth and Height of Patterns.

When the text is raised above the plaque area of the sign the machine mills down into the board around the text characters. When you first place the text, if you look at the depth window you’ll note the text has a default value. Depth is the distance referenced from the top surface of the board that the bit will mill down into the board. Height is a dimensionless number, you can think of it as percentage of the default depth value. The height is the amount the text will be raised above the final milling depth (plaque area) based on the default depth. So if the default depth was .500 and height is set to 100 the top of the text will be flush with the original top surface of the board. If the height is then set to 75 the text will be .125 below the top surface of the board or .375 (.5 (default value of text)*.75 =.375) above the plaque area . Since height is reference to the default value of the text that appeared when you first placed the text. If you now change the depth to .750 and left the height at 100 the text will now be .250 below the surface of the board and the text height is still .500 above the plague area . Still .5 above the plague area? Remember text height is reference to the default depth that the text held when you first placed the text on the board. To have it flush with the top surface again you need to input a height of 150 (.5(default value of text)*1.50 =.75). If you enter a value greater then 150 the result are the same. The text height cannot be higher then the original surface of the board.

Start a new project and go to View, select the Rotate Tool. Rotate the board get an oblique view of the board surface. You can then place some text and watch this happen as you change the values. The software has no inquire function so you will not be able to get dimensional values from the board surface to the top of the text, but the selection box which is placed around the text will help in visualization as you input different values.

Bill

[ChrisAlb]

I've copied over a post I made on AllCW.com several months ago. I figured out the depth/height relationship mathmatically.

Hi Jeff,

A quick and probably silly question. Does your math change if the board thickness changes?

[Jeff_Birt]

Nope, that is accounted by the 'Depth' varible. The real hard part is trying to figure out the bounds (highest and lowest pixel values) of your pattern.

[DocWheeler]

Here are two projects that illustrate the height/depth relationship in some ways. I was surprised that the "star" carving acted differently than the text carving.
Both are created with a .5" carve depth.

In a previous post, I stated that I had given false information. I guess it depends upon whether I was talking about patterns or text I guess.

Anyway, one project is the Star with five circular carve regions that illustrate that changing the height above 100 makes no difference. The other is text where there is a vast difference between 100 and 999.

Tilt the boards so you can see the result when you change the height of the Star and text. Now I am really confused.

[Ken Massingale]

Here are two projects that illustrate the height/depth relationship in some ways. I was surprised that the "star" carving acted differently than the text carving.
Both are created with a .5" carve depth.

In a previous post, I stated that I had given false information. I guess it depends upon whether I was talking about patterns or text I guess.

Anyway, one project is the Star with five circular carve regions that illustrate that changing the height above 100 makes no difference. The other is text where there is a vast difference between 100 and 999.

Tilt the boards so you can see the result when you change the height of the Star and text. Now I am really confused.
I'm still having some trouble with this too, Ken.
Bill's explanation in post 18 is helping me:

"The height is the amount the text will be raised above the final milling depth (plaque area) based on the default depth. "

I think my confusion is due to that statement, which is stated not as clearly in the Help file. If the Depth setting is changed from it's defalut value, the affect of the Height setting changes.

[DocWheeler]

Ken,

Both of these projects had the depth settings changed to one-half inch and they act differently from each other. There is more going on here than can be easily explained.

Jeff's answer may be correct as far as height adjustments for patterns goes, but it doesn't explain what happens with the text one.

[liquidguitars]

the affect of the Height setting changes.

I think this is due to the maps scale in "Y" as it moves
away from the board in projection "Z".

LG

[Ken Massingale]

Ken,

Both of these projects had the depth settings changed to one-half inch and they act differently from each other. There is more going on here tyhasn can be easily explained.

Jeff's answert may be correct as far as height adjustments for patterns goes, but it doesn't explain what happens with the text one.
I 'think' it is due to the default Depth settings. It is .500 for the Star pattern and as far as I have seen all text defaults to .125. When the Text depth is changed to .500 the relative value of Height is different from what it is for the Star because the default Depth value of this pattern is .500.
Anyone that can explain that I'm way off, please correct me.

[Ken Massingale]

I received this from Software Support concerning Height:

"Think of a sheet paper with three horizontal lines on it. The top
line represents the top of the board. The bottom line represents the depth
(bottom) of the image/pattern. The line in the middle represents the height
(top) of the image/pattern. The default for height is 100. This number
represents 100 out of a 1000. 999 is the maximum number you are able to
input as the box is only configured for three input characters."

[DocWheeler]

Ken,

Thanks for the report, the explanation somewhat matches the "text" mpc I posted, but it does not match the "Star" one (using a pattern). With a pattern, 100 seems to be full height no matter what depth I chose.

[Dyna Rider]

Hi Doc

I think some of the confusion is coming from making to many changes at once. So bear with me while I retrace some ground. Now on my system the Star 01 came in with the following default values Depth 0.200 Height 100 Angle 0 Size 2.390 * 2.270. and text at Depth 0.125, Height 100, Angle 0, Size 1.031 * 0.766

Now in Group1 of the file Depth test supplied below, if you only change the height, say to a value 50 for both the star and text. Then they will both have a height of ½ their default value. If you enter 0 value then the star will be an outline at a depth of 0.200 below the board’s surface and the text will be at 0.125 below the board’s surface.

Now in Group 2, Both the Star and text were set to a depth of 3 times their default value 0.600 and 0.375 respectfully and then the height was changed to 300 (3 times or 300%) for both which appears to bring them back to their original position relative to the board’s surface. I say appears because I didn’t do a test carving at this point. I just rotated the board into several oblique viewing angles.

So from the above it seems to be simple math percentage problem based on the default depth value.

Now if you make a change to the size of the bounding box from it default size the above ratio no longer applies. I did a carving of the star at reduce size of 1.500 * 1.520 left one at the default depth and height values. The other I set to a depth of 0.600 and the height 300. which should have returned it to the same position relative to the board’s surface. It didn’t, it was lower then the one carved at the default settings.

Next I carved the file Depth test. Both text carvings were flush with the top surface. A straight edge placed on the surface showed that the star in Group 1 showed a little light between the straight edge and the top most point on the star. And the star in Group 2 showed a little more light then the star in Group 1. After playing with the software. The top most point on the star seems to be 0.015 below the top surface of the board. Based on a default depth of 0.200 this would put the star height at 0.185. At a depth of 0.600. (0.185 *3 (or set the height to 300) = 0.555) this puts the top most point on the star 0.045 below the boards top surface.

So then I would now say that the default depth is only a good reference value if the top most point on the pattern is flush with the top surface of the board. There also seems to be a mechanism in the software that prevents one from applying a factor to the height that is greater then the one applied to the depth. Other wise one could flatten then pattern out on the board’s top surface.

If none or some of this, makes no sense let me know. It may be a spelling, grammar, or math error on my part. The dog won’t proof read my posts and I refuse to ask the cat for math help.


Bill

[DocWheeler]

Bill,

Thanks for the trials that you have run. What you say makes sense and appears to be correct for the mpc that you attached. I do not think I can add anything to what you have demonstrated.

My problem was/is that the star mpc that I attached previously was set at a depth that should have required a height of 250 to come to the surface, but 100 does it and 250 seems to make no difference. I didn't carve it, I'm learning about sanding-belt replacement today:(, but hovering the cursor over the highest parts show it to only be 1/100" to 2/100" from the top.

Bringing in the "original" depth as a variable makes the calculation a little more complicated than my original understanding. But, it does not stand-up when applied to my "star" attachment so there is yet another variable that I'm missing.

[Dyna Rider]

Hey Doc

The short answer to the star pattern is you changed the size from the default size. Center a star pattern on a 10*10 board, with out making any other changes, change the depth to 0.800, rotate the board to an oblique angle so you can clearly see that the star is below the board’s surface. Click one of the corner control points and drag it making the pattern size larger. You’ll note that the star rises to the surface of the board as you make its size larger and retreats as you make it smaller. Also note that the Height value does not change.

So what happened, that required you to change the traction belts?

Bill

[auriclux]

actualDepth = -0.0025 * Height * (greyLevel/255) +Depth

actualDepth = Depth from top of board at given point
greyLevel = level of grey of given point (0 to 255)
Height = Height setting in Designer
Depth = Depth setting in Designer

I'm guessing that this is the calculation to which Jeff_Birt refers. Very cool.

I tried looking for this before but I need to use the right vocabulary to find it.

Has anything changed to affect the validity of this calculation?

Scot

[sweliver]

I'm guessing that this is the calculation to which Jeff_Birt refers. Very cool.

I tried looking for this before but I need to use the right vocabulary to find it.

Has anything changed to affect the validity of this calculation?

Scot

We all need these "grey level" calculation ideas.

Are you gonna share, can we use them in designer or need photoshop, corel, PAINT,

I feel like a guinee pig trying to master "Designer".

sw

[sweliver]

We all need these "grey level" calculation ideas.

Are you gonna share, can we use them in designer or need photoshop, corel, PAINT,

I feel like a guinee pig trying to master "Designer".

sw

I didn't mean to question you, I meant it to draw out the knowledge that seems to be hiding in the software, i.e. cc, cw, or a foreign attribute.

sw

[www.go3d.us]

The height in this case is actually refer to the thickness of the pattern and the distance from the surface of the pattern to the surface of board.
See picture.
The height play a significance roll in pattern thickness/boldness and carve time. If the pattern has a lower the depth with the higher number in height it will take longer to carve.

Hope this help.
HT

[Jeff_Birt]

The height/depth formula has to do with making patterns for use on the CW w.r.t. their relationship with gray level. It also provides some insight into how the height/depth settings effect your patterns in Designer.