slipping material

[the_skeptic]

Hi

My material is slipping when when cutting. It did not slip when I carved. I am using pine for a practice cut which could be part of the problem. I also see this with other hard woods such as when I do an edge route.
The rollers were cleaned
the encoder tracking wheel seems to be ok
Y axis travel is 15.528"(-.078" to 15.468")
the y belt was recently tightened (per the carvewright tech support suggestion, who sent me a video)... I have to run more tests..
I recently upgraded the firmware with the latest file which got resolved the insure sliding plate is set message.

Does this problem look like a y axis issue from the photo and is the message in the 3rd photo giving any clues?

Thank you for any insight and help.

John

878558785487856

[lynnfrwd]

What is your head pressure?

[fwharris]

It looks to be off in the X axis and to me the full carving is off in the X axis direction.

[bergerud]

Was this a single pass or multiple pass cutout?

[the_skeptic]

Multiple. max cut depth .1" per pass.
Thank you

[the_skeptic]

I agree. Did the tech think that the Y was not coordinating with the x and missed?

[the_skeptic]

I did not measure, but the roller sensors show that they are enguaged

[lynnfrwd]

Every pass you make increases chances of it mistracking. Make in as few as possible and ONE PASS is preferable. Low head pressure could cause it to mistrack.

[Digitalwoodshop]

What are your sled tails length. Sure looks like 3.5 inches.... I always do 4 inches... 3.5 inches lets the board "Tighter" on that roller "EDGE"... I like the extra 1/2 inch...

I would try the same project again with a set of 4 inch ears... When the board it at the 3.5 inch point it can "RELEASE" enough pressure on the board to let it loosen up on the BRASS ROLLER leading to the result you see....

And Edge Routing is not the machines strong point...

And you have masking tape on the bottom of the board so the brass roller has something bit into?

AL

[the_skeptic]

I do use tape on the base, but am not sure if it was on that run. Good suggestion for the extra 1/2" on the sides. The problem did happen at the edge of the piece. I'm also going to check the outter support roller. The problem did not occur with the carving, but there seems to be more lateral force applied when cutting.

Thanks,
John

[the_skeptic]

i'll confirm head pressure before making another cut. On a regular cnc multiple passes makes a cleaner cut, but the x-axis traction drive is a different animal.

Thanks!

[bergerud]

When slippage occurs with multiple passes, we get stair stepping. Since you made multiple passes and there seems to be no stepping, I would think that either the board slipped before the cutting operation or that the cut path and carving pattern got shifted in Designer.

[the_skeptic]

It seems to be just on the right side. This might be due to the "climb" of the router rotation on the piece and the lack of head pressure. the cut and design are both centered in the software. I'm going to troubleshoot the head pressure today.

[the_skeptic]

Yes... I thought that the roller sensor reading was using a minimum pressure when it showed engaged

the head pressure is only in the 50's for the rubber belt. I'll need 75-90.

I use dry graphite rather than the lubes on the posts and the acme screws. I'll also reset the alignment.

Thank you!

[Mugsowner]

Low head pressure could be caused by the clutch releasing early, in which case you would have to shim to increase pressure.

[the_skeptic]

The clutch in the handle, right? That sounds like its the issue. If so, would I use a washer or spacer? Very good information!

I really appreciate everyone's help on this. I should have been using the forum more often.

[Mugsowner]

Yes the clutch is behind the handle. There are shims behind the handle. They are between the handle and spring and are used to push the spring forward putting pressure on the crank torque plate. The more pressure on the plate the clutch will take more load before it kicks out. Here is a link to the pasts list and drawings http://www.carvewright.com/assets/service/Maintenence/CW_parts_list_manual.pdf. great break down drawing to see how it all goes together.

[the_skeptic]

many thanks again!

[the_skeptic]

Head Pressure is now 115 lbs. a little more than the 90 lbs specified for the max.

It was the clutch. Rather than shimming, I took a flat head screw driver and expanded the spring. (I may have to shim in the near future).

[fwharris]

Head Pressure is now 115 lbs. a little more than the 90 lbs specified for the max.

It was the clutch. Rather than shimming, I took a flat head screw driver and expanded the spring. (I may have to shim in the near future).

115 lbs is to high. You stand the chance of stripping the X drive gears with it being that high.

[the_skeptic]

I understand. I have it under 90 lbs, so I think that I'm ready to run a project as a test. Thanks!

[DickB]

It looks like you have carved across nearly the entire with of the board, leaving only a fraction of an inch of material under the rollers when cutting.

87867

I have virtually eliminated problems like this since using a sled, which I use for every project 12" wide or less. My sled is 3/4" plywood with 1" rails and 4" end caps. In addition to adhering to the 7" rule, the rails ensure good contact with the rollers even if the entire width of the project board is carved away. It keeps the cutting bit away from the brass roller which otherwise can induce vibration and cause tracking errors. The mass of the sled also reduces vibration.

[the_skeptic]

nice setup. Thanks. I should get back to using a sled again. I was getting errors when the sensor detected different colors etc. It looks like you align the material to bottom left and the sensor and you respond to the alignment prompts to start at the corner rather than centering it? Do you specify the material size as the actual material width and length ?

The head pressure on the front roller is 60 and the rear rollers is about 90. I'm not sure if this is an indication of some contributing factor.

[DickB]

I draw a rectangle 1" top and bottom from the virtual board and 4" left and right and place my project within the rectangle. I set the machine to never stay under the rollers (but of course it will) and yes use Place On Corner.

87874

[the_skeptic]

So, the carvewright finds that bottom left corner at the inner width of the endcap (4 inches to the right of the sled's left most edge). Since you draw your design with a 4 inch spacing on the left it knows to avoid cutting into the left end cap and does not care about the space to the right. The top of design and material to be cut has to aligned to the top surface of the rails and end caps. Do you specify material thickness as the thickness of the material to be cut? Thanks

[DickB]

Yes, specify board thickness to match your project board, not the sled.

[the_skeptic]

I have the base and front and rear panels off and its unplugged.

The 2 rod connecting to the 2 45 degree bevel gears has side to side motion. There only seems to be a screw and washer that holds the rod against the gears. Is there any thing else that I can do to limit the side to side motion besides tightening the 2 small screws with the washers? Thanks.

[the_skeptic]

Thanks. I'm going insure that there is not something else happening with the carvewright and will inspect, clean, and re-align the posts. I noticed that my last sled end plate had the bit cut into it so it may have slipped even with the sled.

[fwharris]

I have the base and front and rear panels off and its unplugged.

The 2 rod connecting to the 2 45 degree bevel gears has side to side motion. There only seems to be a screw and washer that holds the rod against the gears. Is there any thing else that I can do to limit the side to side motion besides tightening the 2 small screws with the washers? Thanks.


As per the CW recommendations there needs to be some play/movement in the rod.

[the_skeptic]

that makes sense, since the plastic retainer has that gap. thanks

[the_skeptic]

Again, I'm trying to eliminate board slipping which has been a chronic issue. I will revert to using the sled again, but need to be sure there are no other major issues. I've been trying to get this working properly for years...upgraded the belts and carve tight bit system.. I really appreciate everyone's input on this forum.


I ran an x and y axis user test and re-measured the head pressure after realigning the 4 posts, cleaning and lubing the posts and acme screws.


The head pressure is now equal.


During the x axis test the 15"x4" board (with tape on the base for the tracking roller) was pushed out of the rear roller while a more wider board was tested properly. It this an indication of a problem?


The y axis test completed, but has the noise on the left side of travel. The wipers were removed and the rails and rollers were cleaned. The noise still exists. the y axis belt was tightened as initially directed by tech support and I do not see any teeth missing. I think the noise existed since day 1.

[DickB]

It's normal for servo motors to make noise, such as a high-pitched whine. Hard to say without hearing if your noise is "normal". Post a video?

[the_skeptic]

(updated) Here's the noise and belt tension . I was unable to upload the video to this sight.



noise
https://youtu.be/U9g704ubUJ4


Y Tension
https://youtu.be/sYoW4VOfXS8




Thanks

[henry1]

your video don't work on ytub

[the_skeptic]

Sorry. It should work now.

[fwharris]

Sorry. It should work now.


Both seem to be normal.

[fwharris]

The only thing that I do not see that you have done is check the head for being level from the key pad end compared to the bit plate end.

Check the level of the head by measuring from the top of the head casting to the underside of the plastic stabilizers on all four corners. If there is more than 1/32” difference the head will need to be leveled. Note that there is always a reason for the head to become unlevel and this cause will have to be found and fixed before the issue can be closed. There are two problems that can cause the head to lose lever: a loose leadscrew nut or a loose/damaged gear on the tierod. Please consult the document Titled Head Pressure – Adjusting the Head Level on the CarveWright website for detailed instructions. This is not an easy procedure and can be very difficult for a customer to do in some cases and should be a last resort and only at the direction and supervision of a CarveWright support technician.

[the_skeptic]

I will check the level and re-read the document. I did not find any missing teeth on the bevel gear and it did not seem to have skipped the gear teeth. I will step through the process again to be sure.

I had a z axis stall error today which may have been due to a loose ribbon cable and having it on its side. I do not think that it is related, yet. It was an immediate error and I had power to the y axis while have the movement in the z to have the same resistance as when it was powered up. I may have that part resolved. However, there was a detent position while moving the z truck up and down. Wipers were clean inside. The z axis gear had a little saw dust, but dont believe that was causing the detent.

Thanks for the advice.

[the_skeptic]

The head is uneven and I will level them.

As mentioned earlier, the z axis does not move smoothly and has a detent. I noticed this when the z axis stalled. I re seated the ribbon cable and the z axis does not stall. However, the y-axis stalls when it goes through the homing routine at startup. E05-0324. I was able to run the job. The graphics is a low resolution. The line occurred when I opened the door to clean the excess saw dust.

87893

[fwharris]

The recommended way to pause a carving is to press the stop button one time. Pausing this way the stop button tells the computer to stop current operations. Using the clear cover to pause/stop the computer needs to react to seeing the clear cover and cut motor switches being opened. Plus the opening of the cut motor switch with the power to it will cause arcing across the contacts.

E05 - Y axis stall (Normal)
Possible Causes
A Y-axis stall is caused when the difference between the commanded distance becomes much
more than the actual distance over the allotted time interval. An easy example of this would
be putting your hand on the cutting truck and preventing it from moving during an operation.
The computer is commanding it (and expecting it to move a certain distance in a given time
interval) but your hand is preventing it from moving; or stalling the movement. A stall does
not have to be a physical obstacle to movement. For instance if a power lead to the motor was
broken then the motor would not move when commanded and the computer would record a
stall.
Possible Causes
Causes include: obstacles blocking the movement of the cutting head, outdated firmware,
faulty electrical circuit in the shop, and electrical short in the machine, a loose connector, a
faulty power supply, or a cut motor that is not spinning.
Troubleshooting Steps
Consult the troubleshooting document titled “Y-Axis Stall” for detailed diagnosis instructions.

[the_skeptic]

87894

Do you think that its related to uneven head heights?

measured HEAD HIGHER THAN POST.
LF .011"
RF .014"
RR .043"
LR .032"

I replaced the power supply and updated the firmware. Thanks again for the advice. I did read that text on sta
ll in the manual. Im working on the head height adjustment now

[fwharris]

Lower the head down so that it is about 3" below the flats on the corner post. Then measure from the top of the head to the lower flat shoulder. You only need to measure on the right side (clear cover) key pad and bit plate end of the machine.

To adjust the heights (level), lay the machine on its side to remove the bottom cover. Next loosen (no need to remove) the screws that hold the tie rod with the bevel gears that meet up to the lead screw gears. Loosen enough so that the bevel gears are free from the lead screw gears. Return the machine to the up right position.

Next, using the hole in the lead screw on the bit plate end of the machine, turn the lead screw to either raise or lower the head on that end to match the height of the head on the key pad end. When making this adjustment the head on the key pad end should not raise or lower.

Once you have the head leveled lay it over and re tighten the screws for the tie rod but leave them loose enough so that there is a small amount of play/movement in the tie rod. There needs to be enough play in order for the head to be raised or lowered.

[the_skeptic]

after lowering head to about 3", I measure difference from right side front to rear .013"... l3ss than 1/32".

do I still need to adjust the head level?

[fwharris]

after lowering head to about 3", I measure difference from right side front to rear .013"... l3ss than 1/32".

do I still need to adjust the head level?


I would say no you do not.

[the_skeptic]

87897

87898

Would you know what wattage the resistors are on the attached module? The wires attached to the power supply just fell out with very little stress when I was looking at it. I had replaced the power supply and maybe the module. This might be part of the reason for the y axis stall, but I'll continue to look..

[fwharris]

This should help..... https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_2.html

[the_skeptic]

this is what Im after, but dont know the current and voltage on that circuit yet

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_7.html

[fwharris]

this is what Im after, but dont know the current and voltage on that circuit yet

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_7.html


The only thing that I have referenced for resistors is the color coding like in the link I posted.

Maybe DigitalAl will jump in.. I will send a note to him for his input...

[Digitalwoodshop]

Got the note... Thank You :) I believe it is a 2 Watt resistor. The Brown is NORMAL.... I believe the X Termination Board is GOOD.... When they FAIL... They BURN... I will post a 2nd reply with pictures. Resistors resist the flow of Voltage and dissipate that energy as HEAT. I have been in Electronics since joining the Navy in 1975. I am NOT a big fan of the Decision to spray the coating on the Resistors. It was a knee jerk reaction to the early 2008 problems with the QC Chucks Vibrating the whole machine causing the C1 Capacitor shown in my pictures snapping off. As you can only bend copper wire like the leads on the Capacitor so many times before it snaps. I AGREE with the Glue of the C1 Capacitor on the X Termination Board as it is a LOLLY POP type part. IF the Machine NEVER had the QC Vibrations Problems then I don't believe we would have had the snapped C1's. We also had Snapped L2 Coils in the Early version of the power supplies. Also caused by the QC Vibration.

So this X Termination board board has TWO Functions. It gets the Signal from the CW Computer to turn on the Cut Motor. This signal goes to a Optical Coupler that is just a LED Light and a Photo transistor. The Light inside the Chip causes the Photo Transistor to TURN ON. This is a SAFETY DEVICE. It separates the Computer Wires from the 115 volt AC Power that is going to turn on the Cut Motor. So the Output of the Photo Coupler then turns on the Q1 Transistor. The 3 Leg Transistor with heat sink is a on off switch for the Cut Motor.

I am still confused with the function of the 2nd Optical Coupler. It could be something to do with LHR Playing with the SPEED of the Cut Motor... Remember after a CCM or check cut motor you will hear the cut motor speed up in something like a Open Loop Mode with NO Computer Control.

The 2nd Function of the X Termination board is a Jumping Off point from the CW Computer Signal to turn on and move the X Servo Motor and return the Encoder Data back to the CW Computer.

SO I read you are concerned about a Y Stall... In my opinion the X Termination board will have nothing to do with the Y Stall.

I see you mentioned something about Power Supply Wires... YES... Screw Type Power Supply Terminals can loosen over time as the metal of the wire connectors flattens out and the Screws will need to be tightened. At Sony in 1995 we actually paid a guy to come to our Picture Tube Plant and use a Temperature Sensing Video Camera to Scan all Circuit Breaker Panels and more Important the big Equipment bays that held the PLC's or Program Logic Controllers. The Mini computers that operated the Factory Automation. Loose Wires while the equipment is operating makes HEAT... The Thermal Image Camera would show different colors for HEAT... We would get a report with a IR Picture and a Camera Picture. Next shut down for Maintenance we would go in and make the repairs. Next Month the guy would scan the problem and send a FIXED Report... The Camera was HUGE back in 1995 and cost over $10K each... Now you can get the same Image with a Camera under $100.00.... Progress.... I never miss an opportunity to TOOT my Horn about SONY.... Loved working there... Did 2 years in San Diego in Production in the 32 inch CRT or Picture Tube Area and 17 inch Computer Monitor CRT area. Then 2 Years in the Calibration Lab doing Calibration but mostly Power Supply Repairs. Here is a Boot leg Video. Sony did not allow pictures... This was taken years after I left for 4 years in Philly at the Service Center fixing stuff... They shut down this building shortly after the video was taken and the equipment sent to Recycling or sold... I worked in the Area at the 10 minute point of the video to the pack off area. We used Fanuc Robots to paint Liquid Carbon on the outside of the Glass Picture tube. With the Carbon on the inside it made a Capacitor out of the CRT helping the Electrons Flow to the screen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNkIgVwr_nQ&t=762s

So I see you have a New Power Supply. I wish they had put Shrink tube Wire Markers on the Wires.... For ID.... And you need to watch the CRIMP of the Wire to the connector. If you don't have a Quality Crimper you can BEND the Connector but make a LOOSE CONNECTION.... A Proper connected wire cannot be pulled from the connector. Did your wire come out of a Crimp connector?

Now Finally... A Y Stall... Y Stall's happen 98% of the time due to bad 685ZZ Bearings in the Y Gearbox... IF when doing a BIT CHANGE when the bit goes to the Bit FLAG on the far side of the machine and makes THREE CLICKS... That is the Servo Motor SPLINES SLIPPING on the Plastic Gear.... Hence... BAD BEARINGS....

A WORN SHAFT lets the Shaft lean toward the center of the machine and lets the servo motor slip a few teeth...

The FIX.. Replace the 2 685ZZ Bearings and possibly the Gear and Shaft... TIM Thoelen is selling SHAFTS that you can press into the old gear... Otherwise it is over a Hundred Dollars for a LHR Servo Motor and Gearbox.

AL

[Digitalwoodshop]

Here are some pictures of Really BAD X Termination Boards.... I believe some are caused by UN GROUNDED machines that build up STATIC ELECTRICITY on the Machine FRAME and ARC OVER taking out some Components of the Cut Motor Circuit...

The 2nd reason... Turning on your machine in a High Humidity and COLD... Where the machine sat overnight in a COLD SHOP and you turn the HEAT ON and Condensation forms on the Circuit Boards. Causing a ARC.... Water and Electricity....

[the_skeptic]

Al,

Thanks alot for the thorough explanations. I'm going to have to go over all of the parts that you mentioned. I'll start by rechecking the connections and then the wear as you mentioned. I'll report back what I find.

Yes. Those wires ( crimped by carvewright or someone that they bought from or contracted) and then fell out. Today, I put the machine together and had an x axis and cut motor stall. What you said about the condensation makes sense.

[the_skeptic]

Thanks! He certainly has some insight and answers.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I deleted my Power Supply Wire Rant. Joe is taking care of it.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Thanks! He certainly has some insight and answers.

( The Older I get... The Better I WAS ) 20 years fixing Navy Fire Control Radars and Computers. Then off to Sony in 95 making picture tubes or CRT's. Was a Shift Mechanic for 12 hours in the middle of a 12 hour cycle to make Picture tubes... If my Equipment broke you had 6 hours of CRT's still coming at you 150 an hour.... We worked a 4 day and a 3 day every other Sunday. On my off days I would go to Sony training and get paid... Fanuc Robot Programming and Repair... Pillar RF Generator... Omron Factory Automation with PLC's Program Logic Controllers... Even Basic Math... Loved Sony... Also did 2 years fixing Power Supplies and stuff in the Calibration Lab. They had Engineering Employee of the Month. I got it a few times for my repairs making the Department look good... You would get between $200 and $500 in Sony Store Money... My last 4 at Sony were at Philly fixing Play Station 2's and stuff...

I understand most of the CarveWright.... All you need to do is think like the machine... What does it want that it is not getting.... And why does it do that...

Thanks,

AL

[the_skeptic]

8791487913
Here's one of the the poor crimp jobs. Mean while, I'm stuck with an expensive fix, more repair time and yet to produce anything to provide income from wood working. Thanks for jumping in. Hopefully, I'll make more progress soon.

[lynnfrwd]

I have NOT read all of this thread, so forgive me if more info is here that I am not aware.

This power supply was purchased in 2017. Have you not put any hours on it since?
Hardware stores have new crimps that are inexpensive.

[the_skeptic]

The machine has a total of 50 hours and the power supply has far less. I'm doubting that its worth the effort, but trying since I put all of that money into the upgrades.

I already replaced the crimps and still trying find the problems causing the cut motor not getting power, the stalls, and material slipping (which may have been resolved). I have to tear down the entire machine down again after I figure out the function of all of the wires. Its a 45 minute drive to the shop (then back home to access internet).

[the_skeptic]

87915

Your help and experience are much appreciated. I started to get too many error messages, so, I'm going to check all of the connections and evaluate the costs of components. Hopefully, I can connect the parts to troubleshoot the electric with the help of a friend. In the mean time, I can use a shopbot at a makerspace which requires totally different methodology to design and setup and cut/carve. (each has their strong points and weak points).

Thanks!
John

[the_skeptic]

I think that I found the reason for the detent in the z axis. The z-truck seems to be pitted. The build up of residue inside it must have been bumping against the bearings. The gear and belt teeth look good.

8792787929

[Dale]

If that is the problem you can just rotate the rods around to where there is a smooth surface. I've done that to mine several times.

[the_skeptic]

The pitting is on the new casting which I may fill in with resin. You bring up a good point. I should take apart the truck to inspect the rods more closely.

[the_skeptic]

8800988010

I now have the components on a test bench, however, more wires fell out of their connectors. The wire with the molex connector connected the controller to the power supply (about an 8 Ga wire). Does anyone know if it can be replaced with a 12 ga wire (rated at 9 amps)?

Thanks,

John

[lynnfrwd]

88016

88017

I sure hope you can get that all back together!

[the_skeptic]

One wire at a time, I guess.