New Machine Old Problems

[lesuer27]

Hello,

This is my second machine that I have bought after a long break of traveling, but I am still getting the same issues that I had with my older unit.

Check cut motor. After 15 seconds of carving centerline text I get this message every time. The carve motor didn't even start yesterday when I was carving and thank God I didn't walk away!

Check board sensors, the thermal sensor and tracking roller constantly giving errors. I have the straightest boards that have been thickness sanded, do I need a wide belt to run this? I also use the blue tape. I have ruined just as many boards with the new machine as the old one. I thought it was supposed to track better? Do I need to build an mdf sled for all my pieces?

And the thing on the right hand side of the machine refuses to pop out to touch off the bit. This one broke faster then my last one that refused to pop out, and I am using dust collection this time!

What gives?

Sorry for all the complaining, I know that everyone here deals with these issues, I just thought the new machine would have worked out at least some of these bugs, but it appears to have created some new ones. The heavy duty belts and new chuck are awesome, so there you go!

All that said I love working with this machine and want to continue to improve my techniques, and be successful with it. I can do things with it obviously that I cannot by hand, and it makes some amazing signs!

[SteveNelson46]

The "Check Cut Motor" error message is pretty much SOP. We all have complained about it for the last several versions. Just press the enter key and the carving will continue. Also, make sure you have the latest firmware on the data card.

More than likely, the reason the bit plate doesn't swing out is because the Y truck is hitting the wiring bundle to the cover switches in the far upper right corner of the top cover. It's hard to see even with a flashlight. I know that I run the risk of incurring the wrath of the safety police when I say this but most of us have bypassed the switches. I have even removed the wiring entirely. I don't know if it's a safety issue or not but almost all CNC machines are completely open and without any cover at all. One just has to be smart enough to keep objects away from the spindle while it's spinning. Also, it's kind of nice to be able to open the cover to check on things while it is running.

If the bit doesn't touch the bit plate there are many errors that happen. Probably not tracking errors though.

[DickB]

The carve motor didn't even start yesterday when I was carving and thank God I didn't walk away!I would check the cut motor cover switch first, then brushes (although the latter shouldn't be an issue with a new machine).


Check board sensors, the thermal sensor and tracking roller constantly giving errors. I have never had a "thermal sensor" error, can't help with that. Board sensor and tracking could be head pressure - have you measured it? Also, the outfeed rollers need to be properly aligned. You might be surprised to find subtle differences in boards that do require readjusting the outfeed rollers for most every board. What size boards are you using? Are you following the 7" rule?

I highly recommend using a substantial sled. I use a sled for virtually every project. This helps eliminate tracking problems. Side rails keep the bit away from the edges and provide good contact with the rollers. End caps reduce board waste due to the 7" rule. The mass of the sled dampens vibrations that particularly on vector cuts and cutouts can cause tracking problems. (Do any of your projects use cutouts?)

I've posted this fix for motor wire interference before but couldn't find it so here it is again - cable ties:

86055 86056

[DickB]

but most of us have bypassed the switches. Gonna hafta challenge you on that statement Steve. I don't believe it is true. Got any data?

[SteveNelson46]

Gonna hafta challenge you on that statement Steve. I don't believe it is true. Got any data?

Of course I don't have any data. No one wants to admit to it. Even if you ran a survey here on the forum I seriously doubt the results would be accurate. However, I can say from personal experience, without any interference from the cover switches, my machine, a B machine with over 2000 hours carving time, has not only had fewer problems but has been a lot easier to use. Maybe I should have said "most experienced users". With that said and judging by the participation here on the forum I don't think there many of us left. But I digress......

[lesuer27]

The "Check Cut Motor" error message is pretty much SOP. We all have complained about it for the last several versions. Just press the enter key and the carving will continue. Also, make sure you have the latest firmware on the data card.

More than likely, the reason the bit plate doesn't swing out is because the Y truck is hitting the wiring bundle to the cover switches in the far upper right corner of the top cover. It's hard to see even with a flashlight. I know that I run the risk of incurring the wrath of the safety police when I say this but most of us have bypassed the switches. I have even removed the wiring entirely. I don't know if it's a safety issue or not but almost all CNC machines are completely open and without any cover at all. One just has to be smart enough to keep objects away from the spindle while it's spinning. Also, it's kind of nice to be able to open the cover to check on things while it is running.

If the bit doesn't touch the bit plate there are many errors that happen. Probably not tracking errors though.



Pulling out the switch sounds pretty amazin, Ill bet it runs alot cooler. Has it affected the dust collection?

[DickB]

So, I am going to press this a bit more, not because I want to start an argument, but because I think that there are some important points to be made here. I’m hoping this is taken in the spirit of an open discussion and civil debate.

My point was meant to be that you initially made a statement, and now two more, that may be viewed as facts but are opinions.


“A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven.”

“but most of us have bypassed the switches”, “No one wants to admit to it”, and "most experienced users (have bypassed the switches)" are not facts. Actually, the second statement can easily be shown to be not factual, as in this thread alone two users in addition to yourself have admitted it:
https://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?29405-AC-Switch-bypass&highlight=bypass+switch (https://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?29405-AC-Switch-bypass&highlight=bypass+switch)

For the sake of helping those who are using this forum, I think it is important that fact vs. opinion be clear.

Your statement “However, I can say from personal experience, without any interference from the cover switches, my machine, a B machine with over 2000 hours carving time, has not only had fewer problems but has been a lot easier to use.” is a fact. However, I can also offer the fact that after I did replace a faulty switch early on, I have had over 1000 trouble-free hours on my machine. My point here is that it is not necessary to bypass the switches to fix cover switch problems – the problems can be fixed without compromising safety features.

Take a look at this thread:
(https://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?28665-Cut-motor-runs-continuously&highlight=bypass+switch)
https://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?28665-Cut-motor-runs-continuously&highlight=bypass+switch (https://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?28665-Cut-motor-runs-continuously&highlight=bypass+switch)


As Al explains, and as is backed up by the experience of the author of the thread himself, an electronics failure can cause the cut motor to start unexpectedly at any time – and it did. “One just has to be smart enough to keep objects away from the spindle while it's spinning.” with switches bypassed is not sufficient, because it can start spinning at any time with an electronics failure.

So my second point is there is more information on this topic that has been presented elsewhere, but not here. I would like anyone reading this thread and considering bypassing switches to be informed.

[lesuer27]

Do you have a picture of your sled? Is it mdf or plywood? What are the dimensions?

What would be great is to be able to mod the tracking roller to engage a sled with a rack and pinion gear instead of a roller, all tracking issues solved forever!

thanks all for your replies!

[DickB]

I have a few different sizes for convenience, plywood base with rails and end caps as shown. The thumbscrews and scrap pieces allow various length and with boards to be loaded. I set my projects up with an additional 1" and 4" on sides and ends to match the sled dimensions and use Place On Corner. I do have masking tape on the bottom of the sled but probably not necessary.

I like your idea, but the rack and pinion teeth would need to be ultra precise and mesh tightly to avoid backlash issues. when loaded properly you will have impressions made into the seld by the roller, like a rack. If outfeed tables were not adjusted properly rack and pinion would not mesh tightly and could still cause problems.

86057

[SteveNelson46]

To me, it really doesn't make any difference whether it's fact or opinion. I'm just sharing my experiences and apparently the experiences of others who have either bypassed or removed the cover switches. There some advantages and disadvantages. One, of which, it forces the use of the stop button rather than lifting the cover to stop the machine. There have been a lot of broken bits reported on that issue alone. It also allows one to lift the cover without stopping the machine to inspect the process. Another advantage is that it makes diagnostics much simpler when there is a problem.

I'm not saying that everyone should bypass the cover switches. If you're not comfortable with it then don't do it. As far as safety is concerned, you can wear 5 seat belts while you are driving but is it really safer than using just one? It is my opinion that LHR is just trying to limit their liability and cover switches are unnecessarily redundant. My definition of creativity is: "Those that can, do. All others just do what they're told". In other words: "Think outside the box".

[Digitalwoodshop]

From the electronic side for anyone new with a machine reading this thread. The Cut Motor is tied to the computer through the X Termination Board. The Q1 Transistor or the 3 leg device is a simple electronic switch. When ever the machine is turned on one side of the voltage to run the cut motor is on one leg of the 3 leg transistor. IF this component were to fail it will do so in one of 2 ways. It either opens or it shorts. SO if it shorts the cut motor starts even if the computer did not tell it to start. The 2nd component failure I experienced twice was the C1 Capacitor snapping one leg and intermittently touching. This intermittent touching caused MY machine to spin up the cut motor. I could pound my fist on the top of the machine and make the cut motor spin up for a second. IF you are changing a bit and have your fingers inside the machine Normally the Right Side Cut Motor Safety Switch protects you as the clear cover is open. BUT.. IF you bypass this Right Side Switch either component failure could cause the cut motor to turn on and if your fingers are inside it could be bad.

This is like changing the table saw blade with it still plugged in. With the low bidder on off switch to protect you.

So for the new guys this is why I have never bypassed a Safety Switch.

Here are some pictures. If you look at the very early 2008 dates on the pictures you can find a post that I did when the cut motor was starting when it should not and it took me some time to find the broken wire on the C1 Capacitor.

I don't consider myself the Safety Police but I want to explain it in detail so as a new user reading this understands why a fellow member raised the flag. We don't want to let a post slide that goes against the manufacture design and recommendations. We don't want it to be considered "Normal... Everyone bypasses Safety Switches". And it is not true in my opinion.

I have the benefit of working for SONY making Picture Tubes starting in 1995 where in a plant of 4000 Employees some bypassed some safety devices and joined the 8 and 9 digit club. The Safety Department would bring them in to speak to the new employees and show the results. I also have 20 years in the Navy operating and repairing Radars and Computers. I posted the last picture of me in 1984. I was a student then but ended up teaching this Weapons System for 3 years. So I am always thinking Safety...

Pictures 6 and 7 are BURNT Boards.... I copied the photos from the Forum. Not sure why they burnt. But imagine if one burnt when you were changing your bit with the safety switch bypassed... Ouch. :roll:

AL

[mtylerfl]

I have never even considered bypassing the switches. I've had no reason to do so. Plus, I play piano, still have all my fingers and want to keep it that way.

[lesuer27]

Thanks for the picture of your sled. I like the bolts on the side to compress it against the rail. It looks like you can get it tighter then the ones that I have seen that compress the ends.

I went out last night and got a piece of MDF and set up rollers for the infeed/outfeed as close to the machine as I could, and got the feed tables completely out of the equation as they flex too much, and I got sick of adjusting them.

With the mdf carrier board and the rollers set up it carved like a dream! I ran just the mdf through the machine three or four times by "loading a project" and I couldn't believe I didn't get any errors. I also taped a rough sawn/weathered board (with the slightest twist) and carved an awesome sign with not one problem.

I read somewhere that if the sled rails are too high compared to the project board that it can interfere with center line text, have you experienced this?

[lesuer27]

"1000 trouble-free hours on my machine"

"over 2000 hours carving time"

Props to both of you for keeping them running! My first machine, a B, only lasted 130 hours before the clutch in the crank broke, the sand paper belts rolled into the side of the machine, the gears that crank the head in the bottom of the machine striped out, and I had to replace the z truck and flex shaft. To top it all off I had to replace the card reader too . I guess I'm too hard on stuff!

[DickB]

I would like to address the question regarding the number or percentage of owners who have bypassed safety switches.

In another thread another Carvewright owner stated:
"I have had my switches bypassed for years with no issue. My router in my router table (where i do 90% of my routing) is never unplugged. I change many bits. I also removed the blade cover from my table saw as 90% of real woodworkers do. You should be aware and have understanding of what you decide to do."


We don't have a practical way to get accurate data on Carvewright cover switch bypass frequency, but since an owner related this behavior to table saw blade guard removal, I did a little search on that.

Here is a paper by the Consumer Product Safety Commission:
https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/EurekaFacts%20Table%20Saw%20Blade%20Guard%20Survey %20Report%20%28Final%206b%20cleared%29%20updated%2 0cover%20page.pdf


Among the findings:

86066 86067

I think this shows that the forum statement that was made regarding the percentage of hobbyists that remove table saw blade guards is highly inaccurate. I think that there is a correlation to similar statements made regarding the percentage of Carvewright owners who have bypassed switches. I think that percentage is small.

[DickB]

Thanks for the picture of your sled. I like the bolts on the side to compress it against the rail. It looks like you can get it tighter then the ones that I have seen that compress the ends.

I went out last night and got a piece of MDF and set up rollers for the infeed/outfeed as close to the machine as I could, and got the feed tables completely out of the equation as they flex too much, and I got sick of adjusting them.

With the mdf carrier board and the rollers set up it carved like a dream! I ran just the mdf through the machine three or four times by "loading a project" and I couldn't believe I didn't get any errors. I also taped a rough sawn/weathered board (with the slightest twist) and carved an awesome sign with not one problem.

I read somewhere that if the sled rails are too high compared to the project board that it can interfere with center line text, have you experienced this?Fantastic!

Yes, the rails must be close in height to the board - I would say about 1/8" but don't have an exact number. There is an option to Jog To Touch which you should use when running with a sled. The machine will default to touching near the edge of the board to find height, which will be the rail. You can manually override every time, or set a user option on the machine keypad, to Jog To Touch. You will be prompted to move the bit to the touch position using the keypad. Have the bit touch down over the board and not the rails. No problems then with Centerline.

(Make sure you choose a touch position that is not in line with the thumbscrews, so that the bit is not hitting them during the board thickness finding operation.)

Here's what I did to make the infeed/outfeed tables easier to adjust and more stable:

86068

[SteveNelson46]

As I said before, I am not advocating that everyone bypass the cover switches. I am just sharing my experiences. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it.

Michael,

Does your ShopBot have safety cover switches?

[SteveNelson46]

Has anyone ever modified a car for their own needs? Maybe put bigger wheels on it or even modified the engine? Has any one ever mounted a hand power saw to the underside of a table allowing the blade to protrude above the surface so it could be used as a make-shift table saw? So, what's the point here? I think all of us have, at one time or another, modified or adapted standard equipment to suit our own needs. Why should the Carvewright be any different? And no, I don't have any statistics on that. Just trying to make a point!

[fwharris]

The cover switches were required to be put on the machine by UL in order to get their certification. In the grand scheme of things they do serve a purpose in the safety of operating the machine and how the machine communicates with the computer.

Yes, some have by passed (removed the switch from the electrical circuit) while others have replaced them with a more reliable similar (an enclosed) switch and others have removed the plunger style switch and installed a toggle style switch at another location on the cover or out side of the machine. The toggle switch still maintains the intended safety features designs but relies on the operator to set the switch prior to placing their hands inside the machine. I look at the removal of the switches from the circuit as similar to plugging in the seat belt to stop the red light and dinging and not having the belt around you.

There are also others (me for one) who have never replaced the switches. I still have the original switches that came with the machine. I have adjusted the switch location so that it meets up the the clear tab on the cover and have also removed them and cleaned the contacts.

When making modifications to any machine one needs to be aware of the risks of doing so and what could happen if the modification fails. Advocating that others should make the same modification could put them at risk and one at risk of liability for doing so in this day an age of anything goes.

[mtylerfl]

Michael,

Does your ShopBot have safety cover switches?

In a way, yes. The Control Box has a key that you turn off the power to the spindle prior to changing bits. As far as I know, all commercially sold CNC machines have a safety feature of this kind. CW has it implemented in the cover switch...ShopBot has the key/lock.

I went out to the shop and took a couple pics to help you understand how the safety feature is done on the SB. The key is attached to the collet wrench by a short length of aircraft wire that cannot reach the spindle.

The key cannot be removed until the power to the spindle is powered off - thus, there is NO CHANCE that the user can change a bit with power still on to the spindle. Also NO CHANCE that the user would forget to turn it off. They have to use the collect wrench to install/remove a bit.

[DickB]

Thanks Michael. I was curious how this was done on other CNC machines. Makes sense to me.

[mtylerfl]

You're welcome!

[Digitalwoodshop]

Thank You MT... I learned something about how other CNC's handle the bit change and safety.

Jumped into a post over on the Facebook CW Page where a new user was having a close cover issue. Someone posted that he bypassed his switches and the new user made interesting comments about that being possible... So I had to jump into a 5 week old post and give much of the same logic I posted above... Not sure how she solved her switch problem but I did chime in with the "Seat Belt" fix 4 weeks ago.

I worry about the new users looking to us for advice and getting the impression that it is OK to bypass safety switches. That is why I never miss a chance to post why I don't think it is a good idea.

Posting on the Internet is FOREVER... Even Deleted Posts are still "Somewhere".... You just know that if a New User gets mangled up on a machine that they thought it was OK to bypass the Safety Switches... The Lawyer is going to ask... "Well, WHO told you it was OK to bypass the Switches?" And that is when the lawyers start making the BIG BUCKS.... And it won't be LHR who is on the hook...

AL

[lesuer27]

Thank You MT... I learned something about how other CNC's handle the bit change and safety.

Jumped into a post over on the Facebook CW Page where a new user was having a close cover issue. Someone posted that he bypassed his switches and the new user made interesting comments about that being possible... So I had to jump into a 5 week old post and give much of the same logic I posted above... Not sure how she solved her switch problem but I did chime in with the "Seat Belt" fix 4 weeks ago.

I worry about the new users looking to us for advice and getting the impression that it is OK to bypass safety switches. That is why I never miss a chance to post why I don't think it is a good idea.

Posting on the Internet is FOREVER... Even Deleted Posts are still "Somewhere".... You just know that if a New User gets mangled up on a machine that they thought it was OK to bypass the Safety Switches... The Lawyer is going to ask... "Well, WHO told you it was OK to bypass the Switches?" And that is when the lawyers start making the BIG BUCKS.... And it won't be LHR who is on the hook...

AL



I agree with you, but there is a but.

I don't have the safety swtich disabled and probably wont disable it, but even with the cover open while running its a helluvalot safer than a table saw, lathe, miter saw, and diving with sharks. I saw one guy get hit in the you know where while he was trying to cross cut an unsupported board on the table saw! I don't think the carvewright has done that yet :)

[msgtray]

I bought a second machine because my first was down so often (a long story) and I was simply unable to get the cover to engage the cut-motor cutoff switch correctly so, I bypassed it. This thread has me rethinking that decision. While the machine still has a second cover position switch which turns off the motor when lifted, I can see where a faulty condition could allow the motor to start or run with the cover open making it a recipe for blood staining a good piece of wood.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Remember the left switch wires can be put in 180 degrees out and that will give you a open cover all the time. But likely not a problem in your machine as you were able to bypass the switch and make it work so the wires must be plugged in correct.

Remember the seat belt idea to use tape to hold the cover tight to the switch.

And check and see if the switch is good by using sensor data and manually press it.

Switches have been known to go bad.

Good Luck

AL