Instruction versus doing

[DickB]

I have been helping a fellow carver offline. As part of my response, I suggested the person also use the forum, and the person said they were a little afraid of the forum, because most respondents take the person's project and make changes without explanation of what was "wrong" or how the changes were made. I have been working more step-by-step and explaining why and how with this person.

This is a great forum - one of the best in which I participate. In many cases - such as a pattern request - the requester is happy with being provided a solution. They don't want to learn how to make the pattern; they are happy to have it provided, and others are happy to do it. That's great. But in other cases, the requester is really looking for information and wants to learn - such as how to make a pattern.

I think it would do us all good to think about if the requester is just looking for a solution, or looking for instruction as to what to do and why. This could be of great benefit. I know that this is being done by some, but I would ask all respondents to consider this as well.

[cestout]

I said about the same thing recently in a post. I always try to point out ways to fix a problem, I never fix it and send it back to them.
Clint

[oscarl48]

Gents, one of the complications in this discussion is that there are dozens of ways to make patterns. Even within a specific technique there are several ways to accomplish a specific end. The business model selected by LHR sells separate modules that only provide piece parts of the overall package. Nothing wrong with that but most users only have one or two modules which limits them to those areas so are again limited to what they can accomplish on their own.

There are third party software that can bridge those capabilities but there is usually a steep learning curve associated with those tools. I am still horrible with 2d tools.

Its taken 2+ years to teach myself a very small portion of the Blender 3d package. That was with a very strong computer user background. So far I am aware of only three or four folks on here who are attempting to learn this way (I am sure there are more). It is probably one of the harder ways to make patterns though in the end will open the door to create anything they want. That is only one tool. There are at least a dozen or more 3d packages that can be used.

For the basic LHR modules, they do a decent job with basic tutorials that can walk you through the basics. The advance stuff with them is beyond me since I don't use them.

When I have a question, I ask and usually get help. Both of you have assisted me in the past. I think persistence and asking questions go a long way.

[cestout]

Oscar, giving pointers and instructions to someone is what we try to do, and I have asked for help also. The point is, don't do it for them - help them learn instead. If I asked how to do something and someone did it for me with out telling me how they did it, I would be insulted. Our job, as old timers, is to help the young ones grow. And not just in CarveWrighting.
Clint

[oscarl48]

Clint, not disagreeing with you. My point was you also need to develop a small amount of relationship with the person you are trying to teach. Even if its only asking what tools they have. There are so many ways to make patterns and the tools available to folks are very different from person to person.

[fwharris]

I think Dick's statement was not so much specific to making patterns but more of a general statement for how things are done with the software features.

Now with the "pattern making" part as Oscar has stated it is not such an easy process to teach/tell about. Not all of our pattern makers use the same tools/software nor do most of the general CW users have the software. Most software companies have their own on line tutorials plus there are many YouTube instructional videos. I bet those who are doing the pattern making have spent many of hours watching these tutorials that are specific to the software they are using. It takes dedication and lots of hours in the saddle to make one even a novice at doing so. The most I would expect out of them would be to point out what software they use and point those who want to learn to the sources that they have found beneficial to their learning process.

For the CarveWright Designer and add on features I agree that we should be doing more than "is this what you want" by listing out our steps of how we did it. It is not only a good teaching point for the one making the request but also for others as well. Back when I first got started KenM810 would post a screen shot of a design with a small explanation about it. Our goal was to recreate the design and tell him how we did it. I've tried to search for some of the posts but have not been able to do so.

[DickB]

Yes, I was not referring to pattern-making only, or even primarily. I only cited patterns as an example where a requestor often just wants a pattern made, and is not so interested in learning how to make that specific pattern. No problem with that at all. I agree with Oscar, there are many different ways to make a pattern, and trying to detail a step-by-step answer to a question such has "How do I convert this photo to a pattern?" may be difficult to do in a forum setting.

But in many cases a short tutorial, rather than a solution, can fairly easily be given.

A better example than pattern help would be say a person has designed a project and is getting chipout on the text. Rather than taking that person's mpc, fixing the project, and reposting the mpc saying only "try this", instructing might include commentary such as (and certainly we I have seen these types of answers in the forum):

"Add some Draft to your text" (Good - what)

"Try adding Medium Draft to your text. Draft adds taper to the edges of the text, rather than creating a sharp edge, to reduce chipout. For the size and height of your text, I think Medium Draft is appropriate. You may need a different amount of draft for different sizes and heights of text." (Better - what and why)

And add "Take a look at these two screen shots with and without Medium Draft - see the difference?" (Best - what, why, and results)


In some cases it might be better to respond without posting an mpc, and let the requestor work through to the answer using only the instruction.

[SteveNelson46]

I think most of us learn by doing but seeing a finished example can be a good learning tool also. For example, it would be difficult to explain a sweep or an extrude without a finished example. The "learner" can then work backwards by altering shapes or turning features like the "Draft" on and off to see the effects. Then questions can be asked here on the forum about the parts that are not understood. This stimulates conversation and is beneficial to all.

Patterns are a different animal. A check box in the program to unprotect it and allow anyone to edit the pattern would be nice. Then the creator could choose whether or not to protect it.

[cestout]

Dick, I like your middle example - simple, suggests what to do and why to do it. About the level of a carver's software, I always assume the minimum unless otherwise indicated. That is the way I try to design my "Projects". My best selling project, still after about 4 years, is in large part a tutorial on layering patterns. My latest one starts with tricks I have learned to make carving the project easier and avoid frustration. I think the projects in the store and here on the forum are a good way for carvers to learn how to design.
Clint