Creating layers for segmented bowl pattern...again

[Durtdawber]

I posted this file a while ago and got some great help to get me to a point. I am now trying to make the segments bigger and place multiple segments inside of other segments when I carve them. I am trying for a few things here:

1. reduce the amount of waste wood by carving one inside of another.
2. be able to do this with version 1.187 with no addons, just the tools in 1.187.
3. figure out how to repeat this if you need to carve a larger bowl.

The over all effect will be to stack the segments on top of each other in order to create a stair step outside and sand to create a smooth inside.

79128

79127

Thanks,

Donnie

[Durtdawber]

I'm bumping this back to the top in case someone knows the answer but did not see this post.

I'm hoping that the end result will be a way for 1.187 folks to be able to create segmented bowls of different sizes that can be glued up.

By nesting the "rings" I'm trying to reduce the amount of waste.

Donnie

[oscarl48]

Is third party software allowed for this thought experiment?

My first thoughts of doing it without any add-ons is to use a picture. I think you can build a gradient tone cone picture that can be ported into designer to create the sides. Optimizing the ratios of the wall slope to overall bowl size will allow nesting the patterns. I'll try when I get home. I'm at work playing hookie for two seconds when I saw this.

[bergerud]

I am at work as well. I did work on this before but lost interest when it seemed you could really only make cones with feather. Also, double sided would be required to do both inside and out.

[Durtdawber]

When you have a chance, open the file I attached and look at how the nesting works on the ones to the right in the picture. I could not get the nesting to work when trying to nest 3 or more rings. That's where I'm hung up.

I was not trying to do double sided right now. The way the rings are sized the inside should match up to be smooth sloped but the outside would be stair stepped.

Donnie

[JLT]

Donnie,

Couple of (hopefully helpful) observations...


* Forgive me if you've already worked through this, but it seems like you're going to need at least two sets of rings to make a bowl... an "odd" and "even" set. One set of rings doesn't appear to do, because the top of the inner ring has to fit flush with the bottom of the next outer ring, and thus the inner ring has to partially overlap the outer ring. And since you're nesting rings, this can't be done. So you will need two sets of rings (at minimum), such that, say, the largest ring of set 2, will mate with the largest ring of set 1. Essentially and odd/even set, when stacking them together...


* When cutting the rings, they will have to be cut through to eventually mate to each other, but this poses a problem, as the inner rings will become loose once cut through. And this seems to apply whether you cut the insider first or the outside first. So, you almost have to carve the inside portion of the ring first, all the way through, then flip the project, cutting the outside of the ring *almost* all the way through, in order to have it held during the carve, and then finish with a cutpath to cut it out.


* Following the above technique for carving out a ring, you then might want to create your project with the two sets of nested rings, and then hide all but the innermost rings, cutting the innermost rings (one from each of the two sets) as one project. Then, hide everything but the next innermost rings, and cut those as a project, and so on...


R, Jon

[oscarl48]

My idea of using a gradient has already been thought of and documented back in 2008 by someone much smarter than me. This should be an exercise of math on getting the slope and angles to line up.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?6835-How-do-I-get-a-carve-section-within-a-carve-section&highlight=bowl

You will need a graphics program that can paint gradients but this should allow you to control the angle of the slope for the bowl. This amount of math makes my head hurt. Good luck.

[bergerud]

When you have a chance, open the file I attached and look at how the nesting works on the ones to the right in the picture. I could not get the nesting to work when trying to nest 3 or more rings. That's where I'm hung up.

I was not trying to do double sided right now. The way the rings are sized the inside should match up to be smooth sloped but the outside would be stair stepped.

Donnie

Here are two different attempts.

One with two piece "washers" to make the zero height rings. I like these as it makes things simple.

The other with groups. Much more complicated with Clip Exclusive used inside the groups as well as on the groups.

(There is no thought here about tabs or how it would actually carve. Just an academic exercise!)

[liquidguitars]

someone much smarter than me. That was Ken I was thinking what a fantastic artist and craftsman he was...

[aokweld101]

I understand what Dan is doing with the half inch feather and it's as Dan said a simple solution, JLT brought up a good thing about even and odd using two different patterns so they wouldn't fall inside one another I am having a problem with the outside of the bowl... The first circle is 10" then a circle at 9" and .5 feather and so on, if I used two patterns even and odd circles what would be the first circle on the odd numbered pattern be and would I make a sweep or feather to the outside to make the contour on the the outside of the bowl so it's not at a 90 degrees edge on the outside. Dan you know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.. because I didn't understand when I asked a while ago having all these programs I would think you could make a simple bowl. Thank you..

[bergerud]

... having all these programs I would think you could make a simple bowl.

It would be no problem to make a bowl with all the CW software. The exercise here was just to nest more than two rings with the Basic Designer. An "academic" exercise in dealing with overlapping patterns. That is all.

[aokweld101]

I know this was about nesting and a great exercise, I'm still trying to grasp the concept of making a bowl this post helped me alot, I'll do as you have told me in the past....I'll play with it...lol

[JLT]

Been dabbling with an advanced version of my "Radial Vector Generator", to incorporate height map stroking of vector paths. Still a long ways to go, but as a rough test, hard coded the parameters of the inside of the bowl, with the following assumptions:

* Wood thickness: 0.75"
* Base: 0.5" thick, with 2" radius.
* Rise of the sides beginning at 2" with x=0" at that point: x^2 (essentially a parabola)

The result is the attached 5 segments. When imported, "Uncheck Floor Edges". When including in project, "Invert", "Feather: None", Depth 0.75, Height 999...

Not sure how well these will carve, as the carving bit will have to "trench" pretty deep at times, without the benefit of the feather function...

[Durtdawber]

Someone earlier in the thread pointed out that you needed A / B type rings so that you had enough overlap so that each higher ring sat on the one below. That was dead on and what is reflected in the first file I posted in this thread.

Big thanks to bergerud on your examples. That allowed me to get past the block I was having in nesting more than two rings. I took one of your examples and created the "B" set that is offset by .5 inches. This should allow the inside feathers to match up as you alternate rings from the "A" nest and the "B" nest.

I've not carved this yet and will need to place some tabs before carving. As this was a class participation project, attached is a .mpc with the alternating nested ring sets.

Donnie

[bergerud]

You might try double sided carpet tape on a sled instead of using tabs. (I wonder how the piercing will work. You may have to razor the pieces apart.)

[Rocketman]

Been dabbling with an advanced version of my "Radial Vector Generator", to incorporate height map stroking of vector paths. Still a long ways to go, but as a rough test, hard coded the parameters of the inside of the bowl, with the following assumptions:

* Wood thickness: 0.75"
* Base: 0.5" thick, with 2" radius.
* Rise of the sides beginning at 2" with x=0" at that point: x^2 (essentially a parabola)

The result is the attached 5 segments. When imported, "Uncheck Floor Edges". When including in project, "Invert", "Feather: None", Depth 0.75, Height 999...

Not sure how well these will carve, as the carving bit will have to "trench" pretty deep at times, without the benefit of the feather function...

I'm interested in your methods of vector generation. Is this going to develop in a drawing tool for Designer users? I tried importing your image files into Designer and found they look great! I'd love to see a paint program even if just a simple one that would draw gray scale vectors like your images. As an example a pencil could have a drop down menu where line width would select different depth gray scale mapped shapes such as full round, half round, triangle, rectangle and maybe a dotted line represented by spheres. Drawing with one of the selected tools would produce nice clean edged shapes that could be saved as Png images and then imported into Designer as 3d shapes. Adding your radial tools would be icing on the cake! A guy like me can only dream but it looks like your very capable of making such a thing a reality.

[JLT]

RocketMan,


Am not sure how familiar you are with my "Radial Vector Program", but it essentially allows one to script the generation of complex line drawings that can be imported into designer. The concept is that (at least for me) it's far less tedious to set up a script, input the appropriate parameters, and have the script generate the vectors, than it is to try and create a repetitive number of vectors in Designer by hand. I'm trying to create a similar tool with stroke paths, such that a script, driven by parameters, can generate the necessary complex height map(s).


Whereas with the "Radial Vector Program" I used VB6, with the height map program, I'm using a much more modern tool set, namely HTML5 and Javascript. Somewhat surprisingly, Javascript is faster (at least on Chrome) than compiled VB6 ...


Still a ways to go, though, but the bowl example provides a good test case for me. Ie, the definition of the bowl can be parameter and script driven (ie, wood thickness, base thickness, base radius, and rise rate of the sides of the bowl), and the result will be a set of rings that can be imported into designer as PNGs. This can all be done in designer manually with the 2d/3d toolset, but like drawing a multitude of repetitive vectors, having to manually calculate all the factors and make the various height map sweeps in Designer is tedious...


R, Jon

[Rocketman]

I like your ideas. Another nice thing about HTML 5 and JavaScript is your not limited by any one platform. It's amazing how powerful and fast programs scripted can be.

There's an abundance of "on line" editors springing up. I still prefer to use most of them off line as I know I can access it when internet is not available and I don't have to worry about the site hosting it closing down for good as some have in the past.

Please keep up the great work.

Brad