Poorman's Board Carrier

[bergerud]

I am working on designing a universal board carrier (another thread). I have come up with some interesting tricks which can be used in a much simpler board carrier. Get a piece of 40" X 10" X 1/2" MDF and make, what I call, the poorman's carrier. It takes the CW about 15 minutes to mark out the parts if you have a saw to cut it out and a router table to finish up the edges. (I have also included an mpc that the machine will totally cut out.)

This carrier is not universal, it only holds 3/4" thick boards. It will hold boards from 6" X 2" X 3/4" to 24" X 13" X 3/4". No extra wood has to be wasted to stay under the rollers. The machine directly measures the board and not the carrier. The thickness measuring routine also works as if the board was down on the belts.

The main carrier consists of two rails which run along the edges of the board. The board is held in place by head pressure against the sandpaper in the rails. The rail depth is only 1/2" and so a 3/4" board sits proud by 1/4". This is the trick that gets the machine to measure the actual board length. The rollers drop enough at the ends of the board to trigger the measuring process. The tops of the rails have black sections where the board sensor travels to measure the width. This is the trick which causes the machine to measure only the actual board width. The carrier also has touch spots for the bit so that the machine also measures the thickness of the board.

After the machine finishes the measuring operations, one slides two thin (a little less than 1/4" thick) strips on top of the carrier rails. These strips simply stop the rollers from dropping off of the ends of the board. This trick is what keeps the carve "under the rollers".

To make the carrier, you have to cut out the parts and glue them together. Each side is a sandwich of two parts. The touch spot which sticks out the keypad side needs to be undercut to clear the squaring plate. Router, saw, or grind enough clearance. You will need some grip tape from the hardware store. Stick it on the rails and trim off the extra. With some of the left over MDF from the cut out board, run off some thin strips. (You may need a few sets of these at varying thickness between 3/16 and 1/4 to go with boards that vary from being 3/4. It is nice if they have a friction fit.) Place some black electrical tape (or black paint or black felt pen) somewhere as I have on the rails.

To use the carrier, simply put a 3/4" board in it against the stops in the front of the rails. Squeeze the parts together and clamp in the machine so that the board sensor will be above the black areas of the rails. The machine will measure the board width and then the length. You must choose to center on board. (When you choose center on board, the machine will stop the board for the touches with the front edge just under the front roller. This is what lines up the touch spots. If you choose place on corner, you will have to jog to touch to line up the touch spots. If you do not, you will get a z stall when the bit misses the hole.) That is it, it should just carve away.

There are some details which we can discuss later. Things like thickness calibration. Limitations on jogging.

[bergerud]

I just realized that if the rails are the same width, one has more choices as to how the carrier is used. One can choose not to measure the actual board width but measure the sled width instead. In this case, it is nice to have the rails be the same width. The depth measurement would then revert back to using the machine touch points. More ways to use the sled the better.

I am sure you guys will come up with some more ways to further improve the thing. Feel free to make it longer, make the rails wider, change the thickness for different board thickness, and so on.

[PSQRD]

I'm stoked about this. There's been a few great designs to include on from one of my friends offline about it I just haven't taken the plunge or time to go buy the hardware etc but I have a bunch of mdf I got for free off craigslist some time ago already on hand. This would definitely save me from wasting wood in the interim! Thank you. I'll keep you posted on results going to try this week.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Very Nice !!!

What is the bump out with the shallow hole? A bit plate touch?

AL

[bergerud]

The bump with the hole is the brass roller touch. The two holes on the other side are for the sliding plate bob and touch. That way the machine thinks the board is all alone down on the belts and it actually measures the board thickness.

Here are some pictures after I narrowed the wide rail. Much happier with it.

[cestout]

I have good luck just taping 1" wide strips of 1/8" or 1/4" MDF to the bottom edges. They can and should be longer that the board because the little eye doesn't look there. Works good when you are hot gluing a 3 1/2" or 4" extender on your piece.
Clint

[bergerud]

The point here is that you do not have to tape or glue anything. The rails carry the board and fool the machine into thinking the board is all alone yet the rollers are also held up.

[Sliverfoot]

Great design! I've been watching the thread for your other design and I'm not clear on exactly how that one works yet. But this one I get. I'll have to pick up some MDF and start cutting it out. Did you use a 1/8 cutting bit or 3'16?

Kim

[bergerud]

I just used the 1/8" cutting bit at a depth of 1/8" to outline the parts (just deep enough for the bearing on the router to follow). Cut it out rough with the band saw and then cleaned it up on the router table. I usually just let the CW cut out the parts when they are intricate. These have so many straight edges I thought I would use the router table. You can do either. You can also switch to the 3/16" cutting bit in the mpc if you want.

[mikemi]

Thanks so much Bergerud for sharing your plans. I noticed that the thickness of the MDF is 1/2 inch, does it change anything other than overall dimensions if 3/4 inch is used? I have a lot of it in my scrap corner.

Mike

[bergerud]

The thickness matters mainly because the board (assumed to be 3/4" thick) has to stick up 1/4" above the rails. 1/2" MDF leaves the 1/4". Also, the depth of the touch holes would have to be adjusted. Or, I suppose you could just use 3/4" MDF and then rip 1/4" off of the bottom of each piece. Same result in the end. (You could keep the bottom 3/4" but you would have to rip 1/4" off the bottom of the top pieces.)

Edit: The depths of the touch holes are measured relative to the plane where the bottom of the board rests (pretending to be where the belt would be). So, the bottom could be made from 3/4" with no change. The whole thing just goes up 1/4".

[James RS]

I'd love to see a video of this in action

[mikemi]

The thickness matters mainly because the board (assumed to be 3/4" thick) has to stick up 1/4" above the rails. 1/2" MDF leaves the 1/4". Also, the depth of the touch holes would have to be adjusted. Or, I suppose you could just use 3/4" MDF and then rip 1/4" off of the bottom of each piece. Same result in the end. (You could keep the bottom 3/4" but you would have to rip 1/4" off the bottom of the top pieces.)

Edit: The depths of the touch holes are measured relative to the plane where the bottom of the board rests (pretending to be where the belt would be). So, the bottom could be made from 3/4" with no change. The whole thing just goes up 1/4".



Thanks for the information. I may try it with the 3/4 inch and see how it comes out.

Mike

[ktjwilliams]

Interesting,,, very interesting ....

[bergerud]

Ok, here is a video of the measuring process. All that would be left to do is slide on the 1/4" thick rail shims. These can be slid on as the machine carves. As long as they are in before a roller tries to drop off a board end, its all good. (Better to be safe, press stop and put the shims in as soon as the measurement is done and just as the board starts to move.)

http://youtu.be/vjGF1g_qkoQ

Edit: One can put the keyboard side shim in as soon as the length is measured. I am not sure but this may be enough in itself to keep the rollers "up". I have not tried that yet.

[bergerud]

Since the distance from the belts to the sliding plate is different on different machines, one should set the depth of the sliding plate drill in the mpc to match their machine. That way, their machine will measure the same board thickness of a board in the carrier as it would if the board was on the belts. I measured the heights of my sliding plates on both my B machines and took the average for the mpc. One has rubber belts and the other has sandpaper and the numbers were quite different.

If you want to make your carrier drill hole accurate for your machine, here is what to do. Place a piece of the 1/2" MDF that you are using to make the carrier in the machine. Clamp it down with the bit touching the MDF. Now turn on the machine. Press 0 - 7 and arrow to the y z sensor data. They will both say 0.000. Move the truck over and touch to the sliding plate. That z number is now what you want to change the drill depth to in the mpc.

(I do not think the drill depth of the brass roller touch point is important for accurate measurement. It just tells the computer about where it will find the sliding plate.)

[ktjwilliams]

Another fine Danvention ... Guess I'll start mine soon ... Thx Dan

[mikemi]

Thanks Dan for the video. I think it should be a winner.
Also I thought my machines were the only ones that made all the moans and groans. Guess not. ;-)


Mike

[bergerud]

I have had another idea. (during the commute to work!) I do not like the shims. It is too much trouble to slide them in and keep them on straight.

If the board was to be only 1/8" above the rails (instead of 1/4"), the roller switches would be right on the edge of opening when the roller rolls off the end of the board onto the rails. One could carve in this situation and "stay under the rollers". If the head was raised just a little, the switches would open.

So, here is the idea: For the board measuring stage, one does not clamp the head down tight. (Tighten down on the board and then back off the handle 1/4 to 1/2 turn.) The roller switches will open when the rollers fall off the board ends and the board will be measured as before. When the machine asks for the bit, clamp the head back down. Now with the head clamped back down, the roller switches will stay closed and the machine will think all is under the rollers during the rest of the operation.

Here is a test to do with your machine. Clamp down on a board and lower the bit down to touch the board. Turn on the machine. Go to sensor data 0 - 7. (Notice that the z is 0.000) Go to the roller data. Raise the head slowly until both roller switches open. (Hopefully they will open very close to each other.) Now go back to the z sensor data, push the truck down and read off the change in z. If it is a little more than 1/8", this idea will should work on your machine as it does on mine.

If you have already made the carrier, try the technique with a 5/8" thick board. See if you can measure it with the head up a little and then see if you get a "clear sensor" error with the head down.

I am going to build this into the universal carrier that I am working on.

[bergerud]

I taped on some 1/8" strips to test the new measuring procedure. Seemed to work fine. Here is a picture of what I carved. So, the parts should be made of 5/8" MDF instead of 1/2" if you want to adopt this method.

(I did have to jog a little to get the touch points to line up. I should do more testing on this.)

[ktjwilliams]

Nice work Dan ...

[bergerud]

Thanks Kevin. You know that everything is an ongoing experiment! Here is my latest attempt. I changed to 5/8" MDF for the new measuring method. I also elongated the touch spots since I now realize that the machine may not always stop at the right place and one may need to jog to touch. I thought I would make the target a little bigger. (I have not made these yet myself.)

Edit: Actually, I am hoping someone else will take over the testing of this. I am back to thinking about the universal version. (The universal version will use the same basic procedure but will hold boards of varying thicknesses.)

[PSQRD]

I may give this a go at least with 3/4" material in mind. If I can get my machine back up and running smoothly. I'm more interested in the multi thickness concept as a whole. A lot of the work I do is on 13"/14" boards and vary thickness from the lumbar yard. My planer only handles 12". There's a few other concepts I've been meaning to try as well, I just need to make something happen.
Paul

[Mugsowner]

Now I will have to look harder. 5/8"mdf will be harder to find. I look to re-purpose things and the 1/2" is everywhere with all the Sauders furniture out there. I would think they used 5/8" somewhere. Gives me something to look for.

[bergerud]

I just made one out of 5/8 and Opps, I did not make the sliding plate touch hole deep enough. I should have added the extra to the depth. When I tested it I got board may be to thin 0.70/0.75. Here is the file again with a deeper hole, or better yet, calibrate it to your own machine. Go back and read post 16 (with 1/2" replaced by 5/8").

It is really nice not to have to deal with shims.

[James RS]

bergerud I'm a bit confused on what holds the sides together. Don't they split apart when the rollers start moving?

[bergerud]

Why would you think the rails would split apart? The board holds them together. There is sandpaper on the rails and at least one roller keeping the sandwich compressed at all times. Even if they are not parallel and or square, the whole unit would ride together on the belts. I do not think there even are any forces trying to split the rails apart. One does have to hold it all together as the head is clamped down, but once down, it is like one piece.

[PSQRD]

keeping this with the "poorman" mentality and just to make sure I understand (sorry if I'm asking too many questions) but he 5/8" mdf is used for a 3/4" board that will be in the carrier? I have a boatload of 3/4" mdf and since it's a glue up job I'm contemplating planing and gluing up the planned/porous surface. If I used the 3/4" mdf as is what size board would I be looking at using in the board carrier? I feel like I'm doing algebra. I can visualize some of the numbers but there is quite a few variables that I can't wrap my head around compounded with the fact that I tend to overanalyze.

[bergerud]

The only reason for the 5/8" MDF is so the 3/4" boards the carrier will carry stick up 1/8" above the rails. Make it out of 3/4" MDF and shave 1/8" off the bottom of the top halves of the rails and you will be good. The thickness of the rail bottoms does not matter. (You do have to shave off the bottoms of the rail tops or the depth of the touch hole, which is measured from the top down, will be wrong.)

[bergerud]

Here is my first attempt to write up instructions for using the poorman's carrier:

1. Put the 3/4" thick board on the carrier against the front stops and slide the board and carrier into the machine until the black sections on the rails line up under the board sensor. While holding the system together and against the squaring plate, lower the head just enough to hold the system in place. (One could clamp all the way down and back off the crank 3/4 of a turn.) Move in the sliding plate.

2. Load the project. Say No stay under rollers. The machine will prompt "Please Load Piece" (since the head is not clamped down all the way.) Slowly crank down the head until it says "Press ENTER To Proceed".

3. Press Enter. No cut to size, … same old. (I suggest using Center on Board before experimenting with other options.)
Watch to see that the machine measures the actual board edges and not a carrier edge.

(If you get a clear board sensor error when measuring an end, the head is not high enough and a roller switch did not open. You have to start all over again.)

(If you get a possible board removal message, the head is too high and a roller switch did not close. You can crank it down a little and press continue. )

4. As soon as the machine finishes measuring the board length and asks to load the bit, clamp the head back down. Do not forget!

5. Load the bit.

6. If the touch holes are lined up, continue. If the touch holes are not lined up, be ready to press STOP when it starts the board touch and choose (3) Jog. Jog the x to line up the touch holes and then continue.

7. The project should now proceed as normal.

I have not tried all possibilities of project size, board size, project placement, or bits. If the touch holes do not line up and the opportunity to jog is missed, the machine will z stall into the top of the right rail. I suggest changing the user options: 0 – 5 - Jog To Touch to (ON). (Note also that the machine remembers the last jog to touch and will automatically repeat it (until powered off and on)).

[Mugsowner]

I would think that you could watch the sensers on the keypad as you raise and lower the head. This helps for us folks that don't hear that way we should, or if the area you are working may be to loud to allow you to hear the switches.

[bergerud]

You could initially look at the sensor data just to determine how much to back off the crank. 1/4 turn? 1/2 turn? I do almost 1/2 turn and it works most of the time.

[bergerud]

Even better yet. Leave the head up until it asks to load the piece. Crank the head down slowly until it says press Enter. Works like a charm. I will change the procedure.

Thanks Mugsowner for the idea of looking at the display. Any more ideas guys?

[Dale]

Bergerud I just finished making your poor man's board carrier and wanted to let you know it works great. Followed your instructions and it worked perfectly on the first try! Thanks for coming up with all of these new ideas.

[bergerud]

Great. Thanks for posting. It is great to hear when something works!

I am going to have a set of them. I am just now gluing up one to hold up to 30", 5/8" thick boards.

[zan29]

How do we get your plan Bergerud?

[CNC Carver]

Scroll down thread.


How do we get your plan Bergerud?

[bergerud]

See post 25 for the plan and post 30 for the procedure. The carrier is for 3/4" boards only up to 2 feet long. One can change the length. As is it only outlines the parts with the 1/8" cutting bit. One can change to full cutout and/or one can change to the 3/16" cutting bit.

[ktjwilliams]

Got a few things going on right now but I will be trying this soon Dan ..

[karossii]

I know this is super old, but I'm exploring using these for 1/2" stock (actual thickness varies from 0.425" to 0.525", depending on my source and if I have to plane it at all...)

Here's how I modified it. I haven't yet cut this out - I'll be doing that later today or tomorrow. I will come back and update with the success (or failure) once I have the rails made and then used them for a carve or two. My biggest concern is if I adjusted the depths for the three touch holes properly.

[bergerud]

Does post 16 answer your question?

[karossii]

I did use post 16 in setting the depths. Just hoping I got it right.

But I just tried to use them and I hit a bit of a snag... either I misdesigned it when I did the redesign, or I don't understand how to use it. The tab for the brass roller touch down - it is hitting the black plate that covers the roller and etc. at the keyboard side. How is it supposed to fit in the machine? Do I originally set it in so that tab is overlapping the brass roller? Does that not affect the clamping pressure?

[bergerud]

I had to cut some clearance so the tab would clear the squaring plate.

[karossii]

Gotcha. Did I miss that somewhere before, or was everyone else just able to figure it out on their own without asking, lol?

[bergerud]

Gotcha. Did I miss that somewhere before, or was everyone else just able to figure it out on their own without asking, lol?

I cannot remember!

[carvingbyme]

I'm trying to use the poorman sled and it measures beautifully, however when it comes to measuring thickness, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. It doesn't automatically go to the cut out area to measure and I recall reading something about using the "jog" feature - but I have no idea how to use that. I usually say for it to just center on board. Can someone explain the proceed to me? Thanks!

[bergerud]

There are two different jog features at the machine. One is jogging to show the machine where to carve a project and the other is jogging to show the machine where to bob to touch the surface. It is the jog to touch the surface that one uses to line up the bit with the touch holes on the carrier. When the bobbing to touch the surface routine starts ("Finding Surface" on the display), press STOP. You will get three options. Press 3) Jog. Now use the x arrow keys to move the carrier to line up the bit with the touch holes in the carrier. (You can also arrow the y if, for example, you want the bit to touch in the middle of the board but it is only the x which really matters.)

[mwolfe]

I was reading the original post about Poorman's Board Carrier from 2015. If I understand that and the Universal Carrier Board (UCB) design, then I have some questions. I think the reason for the black tape or marker on the rails of the carrier are to fool the optical sensor into not measuring the rail width as part of the board width. I think the reason for the touch spots on the carrier is that the machine will look for the touch spots relative to the edge of the board, not the edge of the rail+board. I think the reason for the rails being 1/8" shallower than the board is so the compression rollers will find the ends of the board, not the ends of the rails.
So, the questions: What if I make the rails so they are the same height as the board in the middle, and 1/8" lower beyond the middle, and make the rails the same thickness (and why not?). Do I still need the black marker? The optical sensor will measure the width of the rails+board, but I will be centering the pattern on the board which will be the same as rails+board. With the rails matching the height of the board in the middle, will the machine to sense the rails and the board together when measuring the width? For the length, with the rails shorter beyond the board length, the compression rollers will still find the ends of the board. Will this also remove the need for the touch spots on the carrier, since the machine will be measuring the rails as part of the board width? Perhaps it can use the normal touch procedure. [I haven't tried this yet, but will sometime in the next week or three.]
Finally, one could imagine a software modification to make the machine more jig-friendly, where it would measure the board width with the jig in place, then measure the length of the board using the optical sensor, ignoring the compression rollers or the brass roller unless it runs off the end of the machine. Then it would be easier to make simple jigs by adding a carrier board and rails, or as in the Poorman's Carrier, rails that carry the board by themselves.
Comments welcome.

[Mugsowner]

I think you may be on to something here. I do not have a UCB, but from what I have learned about these machines your assumptions should be correct. Let us know what you come up with. How do you plan to fixture the board to be carved? As far as needing black marker, when the board sensor sees black it assumes there is nothing there. You will see this when using darker colored woods for carving.

[want2b]

Not an expert on the UCB, do have one I made but not a frequent user . You're correct on the black on the edge being to stop the width measurement. I agree eliminating it will just change the width to your board plus rails and if centering the carve the result would be the same but only if that was the only part of the measuring process. The machine also does a depth check using the plates on both sides of the board, normally using the touch plates and the tabs on the UCB as you noted. The machine expects them to be at a specific distance past the edge of the board and within a reachable depth. I believe the thickness of the UCB presents a problem with the depth measurement. I've only carved a thick board a couple of times but always end up with the machine questioning the thickness.
I believe the board is measured by the optical sensor for length, that is how a board that is shorter than the UCB will measure correctly. The pressure rollers seem to warn it to slow down the feed before it can run out the end.
The brass roller is a measuring tool to allow the machine to track its position to ensure starting carves in specific places , especially with multiple items in the same MPC. It also warns when the carver loses track of its position. I have several other carrier boards I made before the UCB existed which work well with 3/4 thickness boards, the carriers are fixed width and length which makes securing the board a pain. I use double sided tape to attach, trick the machine with black tape for length, use center for the carve and make sure I center the board on the carrier. Then Jog to position to measure the depth.
Waiting to hear the results of your tests, always wanting to learn more about the machine. There are several pros who could give better responses to your questions.