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bergerud
03-21-2015, 05:37 PM
It seems that I just cannot help but post things prematurely! I am trying to design a different kind of sled. This is my first mockup. It has some interesting features (which may or may not be useful).

1. If the board is mounted 1/4" proud of the top, (as in the second picture) the machine measures just the board.
2. The board does not need to be clamped, taped, or screwed onto the jig. It just sits there.
3. The board can be removed from the jig without lifting the head off of the jig. I am hoping to use this feature for accurate double sided carving. It can also be used for mass production. Pieces can be swapped in and out without the machine having to remeasure. (This, I think, will require the sandpaper rails be flipped over. The board can slide out the front.)
4. Cutouts will not cut into the jig if they stay 3/4" away from the sides. (I assume larger tabs will be required but if a piece does fall out, at least it will not fall between the belts.)
5. Except for the need to use Jog to Touch, jig operation (for carving and cutting bits) can be the same as if the board was down on the belts.

My main motive is to develop a better method for double sided projects.

TerryT
03-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Very nice!

oscarl48
03-21-2015, 07:56 PM
Ditto. Can't wait to see the future awesome two sided carvings.

Mugsowner
03-21-2015, 08:03 PM
I like. I was think of a new sled and this gives me a few new ideas.

PSQRD
03-22-2015, 12:07 AM
I love the concept and design! Not going to lie it's a little above my head, I'm trying to figure out how the 7" rule comes into play.

RogerB
03-22-2015, 06:19 AM
Nice looking jig. Thanks for shaping . Only have 1 question what is the little piece of wood on the side for?

want2b
03-22-2015, 09:01 AM
Great concept and the 'exchangeable' board will be great. On first viewing it I like the others questions popping up. One that arises is with the project board being 1/4 inch proud and the carver only measuring the piece how can the piece be changed without raising the head? You've come up with another way of looking at sled issues, like the sandpaper grip strips.
Thx for sharing with us,
Rick H

bergerud
03-22-2015, 09:39 AM
I love the concept and design! Not going to lie it's a little above my head, I'm trying to figure out how the 7" rule comes into play.

Good question. I think the 7 inch rule can be broken. If the board is 1/4" above the sides, the rollers drop enough to trip the switches and the machine measures only the length of board as if only the board was in the machine. We do not want the rollers to drop later while carving else the brass roller data goes offline and the x tracking has to depend on the x encoder.

My solution to this is to have two strips of 1/4" thick wood which one slides in on top of the sides after the board is measured. Then the rollers will not drop during carving. (One would also need to initially place the board more in the middle of the carrier.) I plan to try that today.


Nice looking jig. Thanks for shaping . Only have 1 question what is the little piece of wood on the side for?

The little piece of wood moves up and down with the rail. It and the hole in the side are to fool the machine into thinking it is detecting the sliding plate. I was just experimenting. Without the piece of wood, the machine will bob a few times and ask about the sliding plate. It may not be so important to directly measure the width of the board. If it just measures the width of the carrier sides, the hole and the piece of wood would not be needed. I thought I would try and fool the machine into thinking it was just measuring the board on the belts.

The down side is that one has to jog to touch to line up the hole and piece of wood. I have another idea which might be simpler, or I might just scrap the idea of directly measuring the board width.

Iron Mike
03-22-2015, 09:43 AM
Very interesting - keep us posted please.

bergerud
03-22-2015, 09:56 AM
One that arises is with the project board being 1/4 inch proud and the carver only measuring the piece how can the piece be changed without raising the head?

For double sided, I was not going to have the board 1/4" proud, although, I think I could. My double sided procedure is to have a separate project for each side. After carving the first side, without lifting the head, I load the second side project. (It does not remeasure the board.) Just before it is about to carve the second side, I stop it and flip the board. The head can be lifted to flip the board. All that is really important is that the jig does not move. (One just has to press continue to clear the "possible board removed" error.)

(The 1/4" side shims I mentioned in the previous post could also be used and they would help in sliding the board out.)

It should be noted that if the 1/4" proud trick is not used, one has to use either place on corner or jog to position. The place on center requires the trick. (Unless the board happens to be the same length as the jig.)

bergerud
03-22-2015, 11:12 AM
Another idea is to turn it into a vise. As it is, the minimum board length is 6 inches as is for the CW machine. At least one roller must be applying pressure at all times to hold the board. I cannot, for example put a 4 inch long board in the carrier as it will have no downward force on it when it is between the rollers.

A long threaded bolt or two which squeezes the sides of the jig together could clamp the board independent of the roller pressure. The length of the board would not matter. (This would also allow boards to be slipped in and out without raising the head.)

bergerud
03-22-2015, 11:45 AM
Success. The strips work well. I made them a little thinner than the 1/4" so they are easy to slip in and out. (I also used the strips when measuring the width.) Goodby to the 7 inch rule!

PSQRD
03-22-2015, 02:05 PM
I've broken the 7" rule in the past- placing carving on end and not "keeping under rollers" leaving about an inch from the side to not cause too much vibration during cutting. I found that occasionally it results in a line step down in my carves - pretty sure it's from that (the duration of time carving not under the roller. Haven't 100% confirmed it but something to keep an eye out for.. Having trouble uploading image from phone

Digitalwoodshop
03-22-2015, 02:09 PM
Very Nice !!!

bergerud
03-22-2015, 02:38 PM
Thanks Al.



I've broken the 7" rule in the past- placing carving on end and not "keeping under rollers" leaving about an inch from the side to not cause too much vibration during cutting. I found that occasionally it results in a line step down in my carves - pretty sure it's from that (the duration of time carving not under the roller. Haven't 100% confirmed it but something to keep an eye out for.. Having trouble uploading image from phone

That line in the carving is because the roller pushes the board down changing the carving depth a little. That is not such a big deal. My jig will not do that as there is no change in roller pressure on the jig when the roller rolls off the end of the board onto the strips.

The big deal is when cutting. When the board is tracking back and forth as the bit cuts, the brass roller has to keep correcting for the slippage and for the back lash involved in changing directions. If a roller drops, the brass roller goes offline. Precise tracking control is lost and bad things happen. The brass roller can also, I think, be also screwed up from the vibration of cutting. I am hoping that my jig can eliminate both of these problems.

TerryT
03-22-2015, 06:25 PM
Sooooo... What cost are you looking at for the hardware? I may need to build three or four of those. That is the best carrier board I've seen yet.

bergerud
03-22-2015, 07:16 PM
Sooooo... What cost are you looking at for the hardware? I may need to build three or four of those. That is the best carrier board I've seen yet.

Thanks Terry. The parts are pretty cheap. Some furniture bolts and T nuts. I used a T slot router bit on my router table for the two slots in the base. I was thinking of using aluminum slots in my next one. So either buy T slots or a router bit (if you have a router that is). It can be made any length but, out of MDF, it is heavy. Maybe birch plywood would be better.

I think I will try another one out of MDF and then think about making a nice one.

henry1
03-22-2015, 07:41 PM
Like that berg and can save on lumber and bergarud would you share the measurement, and the jig you made, how big of wood or long was it made for

DickB
03-22-2015, 07:53 PM
I like the trick about fooling the machine into thinking it is hitting the sliding plate. My go-to sled has a 3/4" base and I have to enter the depth on cut through projects because it can't find the plate. If I extended the base beyond the far rail of my sled and undercut it say 1/4" to clear the sliding plate, I believe the machine would touch the base and register the correct board thickness without the bobbing and my need to enter it. Sweet.

bergerud
03-22-2015, 08:14 PM
The sliding plate thing is tricky. If one measures the actual board width, then the bob which would go through the hole in the sliding plate goes into the side of the jig. That is why the hole is drilled in the side. But then one has to jog to touch to line up the hole. One would need a few holes for different length boards (jogging can only go so far). I think I will have to give up measuring the actual board width. It is not worth it. If instead, I just measure the jig width, I can have a rail along the side to copy the sliding plate.

I have been working on being able to slide the board out in the middle of a double sided carve. I flipped the sandpaper rails over and added a clamp. With the shims a little higher than the board, I can easily unclamp the board and slide it out without moving the head. In my few tests, the x always lined up perfect. (My y offset has reverted to the default again and so the y was not so good. I have to recalibrate again.)

PSQRD
03-22-2015, 10:17 PM
You know that point in math where you think you understand the problem and the next step comes, then you return to being completely lost? Yep that's me right now. While I'm following that little balloon in the sky, I'm probably not going to completely follow until it hits the LZ. I'm hoping you'll be doing an in depth explanation when you've got it completely figured out. Maybe then that dim little light above my head will turn on. Looks awesome regardless, keep it up!

DickB
03-23-2015, 03:20 PM
If instead, I just measure the jig width, I can have a rail along the side to copy the sliding plate.That is my thinking.

bergerud
03-23-2015, 03:35 PM
What I do not understand is why the machine bobs for the sliding plate after it fails to touch at the brass roller. Why air bob at the sliding plate when you know you cannot reach it? It makes sense to me to just ask for the board thickness after failing the touch at the brass roller.

mikemi
03-23-2015, 08:40 PM
What I do not understand is why the machine bobs for the sliding plate after it fails to touch at the brass roller. Why air bob at the sliding plate when you know you cannot reach it? It makes sense to me to just ask for the board thickness after failing the touch at the brass roller.

I am like PSQRD, The bulb isn't at it's brightest yet. There is just a couple of things I don't totally understand but if you end up doing an in depth instruction sheet, maybe with photos, that would be awesome. I think it is great that you have shared as much as you have so far.

Mike

bergerud
03-24-2015, 08:38 PM
Not only can we say goodby the the 7 inch rule, we can also say goodby to the 6 inch minimum board size. Here is a carving on a 4 inch board. (My first try with the 1/32" carving bit.)

There is a slight trick to it. I first put in a 10 inch piece of MDF and used the machine just to measure it. I loaded the project, answered all the questions. When it asked for the bit, lifted the head and swapped the MDF out for the 4" oak board (and the 1/4" rail tops). Lowered the head, enter, enter, and away it went.

Bait and switch.

lynnfrwd
03-24-2015, 09:59 PM
We only ever said you couldn't go less than the minimum without a jig. This is a jig...pretty cool jig, but a jig.

SteveNelson46
03-24-2015, 10:19 PM
Not only can we say goodby the the 7 inch rule, we can also say goodby to the 6 inch minimum board size. Here is a carving on a 4 inch board. (My first try with the 1/32" carving bit.)

There is a slight trick to it. I first put in a 10 inch piece of MDF and used the machine just to measure it. I loaded the project, answered all the questions. When it asked for the bit, lifted the head and swapped the MDF out for the 4" oak board (and the 1/4" rail tops). Lowered the head, enter, enter, and away it went.

Bait and switch.

As a distraction, What is the dinosaur having for lunch?

BTW A very nice and useful design.

bergerud
03-24-2015, 10:29 PM
We only ever said you couldn't go less than the minimum without a jig. This is a jig...pretty cool jig, but a jig.

True, but I did not have to make a special jig for it. No tape, no end pieces, no screws,....




As a distraction, What is the dinosaur having for lunch?

That was a graphic I was making with Sculptor for a man cave sign. Girls who enter may be eaten!

bergerud
04-05-2015, 01:12 PM
I am onto mockup three now. It can hold boards up to 18” X 14” X 2” as if they were under the rollers. It would not be hard to extend it for longer boards since it does not have the heavy base plate of the previous mockups. (I also think it can be tweaked to hold 14.5” wide boards since the sliding plate can be put between the sides.)

Once the board and carrier are in the machine, its operation is the same as the poorman’s carrier. This mock up holds board thickness form 1/4” to 2” with its movable rails. The bit touch points on each side are connected to rail bolts and so move up and down with the rails. The two sides could be used separately the same as the sides of the poorman’s carrier, but, the high sides make it a little awkward to hold in place as one cranks the head down. The purpose of the ready rod in the front and rear is to keep the sides from moving around and make the carrier easier to handle. One might want to have a few sets of different lengths.

The ready rod can also be used across the rails to clamp boards from the side (through the two slots in the middle). One can flip over the rails (sandpaper down) so that boards easily slide in and out the back when unclamped. This is useful for operations independent of the rollers. For example, smaller boards which would not be held down by the rollers can be slipped in and clamped. Also, boards can be slipped in and out for mass production or accurate double sided operations with out the need to lift the head and remeasure.

More experimenting needs to be done, but like I always think, this could be close.

PSQRD
04-05-2015, 04:50 PM
Damn it man you're on a roll! While I still can't wrap my head around the non - re measuring and sliding boards in, you're hitting the nail on the head at least for majority of my carves. I really like the ability to adjust the base for board height even though I still don't get why the board to be carved has to stand proud of the carrier. I know you still have more experimenting and based off of other things I wonder if you'll find a stopping point or just decide when you're done tweaking? lol I know the feeling. My main questions are 1) how much of this is done with mpc's on the carvewright 2)what hardward are you using specifically 3) whatever can't be done on the carvewright what's needed for it and how's it done and 4) with the adjustable base, is there still a need for a specific thickness mdf did that go out the window? I know it's a work in progress and you're probably apprehensive of putting the mpc's out currently because it's not "done"- but if you're game to share (and I can get my machine to stop being special) I'm more than willing to give it a shot and share results. Unforunately I'm the very "cradle to grave" type needing things explained barney style to get it - but once I get it, IT'S ON! Thanks again for sharing thus far, i you weren't so far away I'd plan a visit for sure!

liquidguitars
04-05-2015, 06:07 PM
What I do not understand is why the machine bobs for the sliding plate after it fails to touch at the brass roller. Why air bob at the sliding plate when you know you cannot reach it? It makes sense to me to just ask for the board thickness after failing the touch at the brass roller.

I think this is in error as to the Firmware in the last few builds and needs to be fixed this is based on the max size in z defaults to 5" now if you run ANY sled with bottom your effected and you have to input a number adding work to the operator.

bergerud
04-05-2015, 06:28 PM
I still don't get why the board to be carved has to stand proud of the carrier. 1) how much of this is done with mpc's on the carvewright 2)what hardward are you using specifically 3) whatever can't be done on the carvewright what's needed for it and how's it done and 4) with the adjustable base, is there still a need for a specific thickness mdf did that go out the window?

The reason the top of the board has to be proud of the carrier has to do with how the CW measures boards. When measuring a board length, the board sensor waits until a roller drops before it looks for the edge of the board. The roller switches tell the machine that the edge of the board is coming. Usually, in sleds, the machine has to measure at least one end of the sled as the rollers do not drop until they fall off the end of the sled. With this carrier, the rollers switch when the rollers pass from the proud board to the lower carrier. The machine then sees and measures the edge of the board. Later, the head gets clamped down tighter and the rollers do not switch when they pass from board to sled. The operation then proceeds as if the board were longer and is staying under the rollers. (Without this trick, at least one end of the carrier would have to be measured and then the carrier would have to have an "end" for the board sensor to measure.)

1) I think most all of it can be made on the CW. I did not make it all on the CW. I used a router table, band saw, and drill press as well as the CW.

2) The hardware is just furniture connecting bolts, T nuts, 3/8" ready rod, nuts and washers.

3) I used my router table to make the bob hole in the top of the right side. One could use a drill press and chisel? (Maybe the CW could do it after the carrier is made.)

4) I suppose one could use 3/4 MDF. I used 1/2 and 5/8. There are reasons why I used these sizes. MDF is so cheap, I do not think it is worth the trouble to change the design for 3/4.

bergerud
04-11-2015, 10:29 PM
I finally got a chance to play with the carrier and two sided projects. I thought I would try to cut from each side and meet in the middle. I made a cutout star on a 3/8" thick Designer board (actually two stars - front and back) and cut them from both sides of a 3/4" board. I figured the points of the star would really show how well the line up was. Worked out ok. Not perfect but I do not think we can hope for much better. The method could be used to do a 2" thick cut out.

The method was to put 1/8" shim strips under the board in the carrier for the measuring stage. After the board was measured, I slid the board out the back and removed the shims. I found I could do it without tripping the roller switches. (It does not really matter about the roller switches, just have to hit continue.) Clamped the head down, tightened the side clamp, and let it cut the front. After side one, I just loosened the side clamp, slipped the board out and flipped it. After it was done, I slipped in another board in and made a second star.

There was no clean up on the parts. I wanted a picture of just what came out of the machine. You will notice the tabs in the middle of the cuts. (The machine thought it was 3/8" thick and put tabs down at 3/8" from each side.)

Really cool to be able to slide boards in, cut them, and slide them out without having to measure them. Also, it is nice to know, after board one, exactly how board two will cut. Repeatability.

chebytrk
04-11-2015, 11:20 PM
any chance on a pdf file with all board cuts, sizes and hardware needed to build this puppy?

bergerud
04-12-2015, 12:12 AM
It is still in progress. Here are the files needed to make what I have so far. The sides layout is for a 33" X 13" X 5/8" board and the rails layout is for a 26" X 7" X 1/2" board. I would just use MDF. I just band sawed out the parts and cleaned up the edges with a straight, bearing bit on my router table. One can easily change the outlines to cutouts if one wants the CW to do all the work. The hardware is all simple stuff I have described before and you can see in the pictures.

James RS
04-12-2015, 07:37 AM
Any chance of a video of setup?

bergerud
04-12-2015, 09:55 AM
Sorry, but I am running out of gas. Lately I have posted files, instructions, and videos for a dust collecting rotary jig, a table saw dowel maker, and the poorman's board carrier. I thought these things were cool and, at least a few people, would want to make them and experiment with them. So far, I do not think anyone has built anything. Maybe no one wants to waste time making prototypes and would rather wait for the final product. Maybe it has to cost money before it is worth building.

Sorry to rant but all this posting and explaining ceases to be any fun for me if it is all just talk. I need to be inspired by seeing something actually get built!

Mike58
04-12-2015, 10:09 AM
NO!
I for one have read this and been following your thread with much interest. I am sorting through just beginning using my CW after it sitting unused for over 7 years. I am wrestling with learning hardware (had a few issues, but it seems DC has cured most of them along with CarveTight chuck) and software learning curve. I am trying to create something myself to sell, and so far on second trial carving and still more changes needed to satisfy me. I am very interested, but don't want to put more on my plate till I work through what I am on now.

You live here!:p

Every time I get on here you are here too. You appear to be part engineer (we are a lot alike) and I find you have a much greater understanding of the nuts and bolts literally than anyone else. Figuring out ways to do things and creating things and processes I find intreging following along at the stuff you have engineered and worked through. Frankly your work shows a passion and get to the bottom of things that is inspiring to me.

Thank You for posting and sharing your discoveries and patterns. You have saved the rest of us untold hours trying to follow along. I spent the better part of last Saturday making and tweaking my first jig to save wasting material carving some honor ribbons for Real for Life fundraiser. I was wasting almost as much material as needed for ribbons and a jig just seemed to be the idea solution. I spend a great deal of thought and time designing and making things in order to make them the best I can see to and easiest to use and work with. That rarely works out to be quick and easy on the front end but pays good dividends in the using it part. You know exactly what I mean.

James RS
04-12-2015, 10:15 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am loving your idea. I just get Con fused when reading is all. Sorry


Sorry, but I am running out of gas. Lately I have posted files, instructions, and videos for a dust collecting rotary jig, a table saw dowel maker, and the poorman's board carrier. I thought these things were cool and, at least a few people, would want to make them and experiment with them. So far, I do not think anyone has built anything. Maybe no one wants to waste time making prototypes and would rather wait for the final product. Maybe it has to cost money before it is worth building.

Sorry to rant but all this posting and explaining ceases to be any fun for me if it is all just talk. I need to be inspired by seeing something actually get built!

bergerud
04-12-2015, 10:44 AM
I get confused as well. There are many different ways to use this thing. The only way to really figure it out is to build it and play with it.

PSQRD
04-12-2015, 01:00 PM
bergerud - I have to agree with both Mike and James - I get motivated, inspired and excited every time I see one of your builds and want to see you keep inspiring others. I inquire a lot for a few reasons, most I have already mentioned in terms of being confused and not completely understanding. As of late my machine has been down due to the X drive gears being on backorder and trying to make do with a boogered up but not completely lost spare set extra I have on hand. I've been using a utility knife to get the small issue fixed. Enough about that - long story short as far as I'm concerned which I'm sure you could agree, making something new can be intimidating at times and many people would not admit it or maybe view it that ways but wait for a final product in hopes of avoiding failure. You Sir do what many are afraid to - stepping outside your comfort zone in pursuit of making things better not only for you but everyone. I said I am going to give a go at your carriers and I full intent on doing so and will post results here and your other thread as soon as I do hopefully providing aid in filling up that tank of gas that's running out. Sorry if this was long winded but Keep on keeping on!

bergerud
04-12-2015, 01:51 PM
Thanks, Mike, James, and PSQRD. I just need to see something built!

Show me the project! (To be sung to the tune of "Show me the money")

DonCP
04-12-2015, 02:22 PM
Bergerud,

I am truly inspired by your work, you sound a little discouraged that others have not jumped in. Well, give us newbie's a chance, I am so overwhelmed with trying to make Carvewright firewood I am just starting to look into jigs. If you need any help to have me build something, test something please just contact me. Heck, I am retired :) You have already helped me, you need to give us mere mortals a chance to catch up with the King .

mtylerfl
04-12-2015, 05:00 PM
...Maybe no one wants to waste time making prototypes and would rather wait for the final product...

Yes, I think most people want a turn-key device (or MPC) that has been fully tested and all (or at least most) of the 'bugs' worked out before investing their time or money.

I also think everyone greatly appreciates your efforts and tenacity in developing solutions and products to increase enjoyment and productivity with our machines. But again, the majority of folks will want a ready-to-go product that doesn't require much (if any) extra effort on their part to be able to use right away.

Please don't stop! Also, please be open to selling your MPC's and/or products so you can get paid for all the time you put into R&R. Quickest way to lose heart is to not get any compensation for hard work. You can only go so far on compliments and kudos. You deserve to get $ - you do NOT have to do all this work for free!

ladjr
04-12-2015, 05:41 PM
Bergerud,

Please don't take any lack of response as no interest. I'm currently working on your Rotary Jig. I'm just running a few projects behind. I really appreciate your ideas and when I get Rotary Jig working I will post. I just never posted because you are always on to a new one by the time I figure it out.

I have given your Rattle Snake to many elected individuals. I make sure the Republicans get the one that won't turn right and the Democrats get the one that won't turn left.

bergerud
04-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Thanks Michael. I have thought many times about becoming a vender and trying to sell my projects on the Carvewright website. I think this board carrier system would be a perfect candidate for this. It is trivial to make (would be basic) and extremely useful. It is something that every user can use. Most of what I would be selling, I suppose, would be instructions on ways to use it.

I think I will take your advice Michael and see if I can get this all up and running for the coming conference. Maybe I can get a "finished" model to the conference for display.

bergerud
04-12-2015, 06:08 PM
I'm currently working on your Rotary Jig.

Cool, I cannot wait to see it. (Funny about the rattleback.)

blhutchens
04-12-2015, 06:27 PM
I'm in the same boat as Leo. As soon as you sent me the files my phone started ringin and I got busy.
Trying to make a living takes priority.
I am anxious to build both the rotary and the sled.
Have had the bearings for the rotary a couple of weeks, just no time to carve it.
I will be in the shop tomorrow and will probably build at least one of each.

bergerud
04-12-2015, 06:55 PM
Alright! I think (hope) you will really like the rotary jig.

PSQRD
04-14-2015, 12:29 AM
75504Told you I wasn't bsing. Finally got around to getting the ball rolling. Nuts and bolts added up to more than I expected but I was also gestimating the specific sizes and bolt types etc. it's late now and preparing a wall to wall inventory for the when the brass rolls through to inspect as far as work is concerned. Hoping to get my first one made (crossing my fingers it's not a failed attempt) by the weeks end. I'll keep you posted with the results!
-Paul

bergerud
04-14-2015, 01:15 AM
That does seem like a lot to pay. Did I see stainless?

PSQRD
04-14-2015, 08:06 AM
Soke pieces yes. The t bolts, and wing nuts they only had in stainless (around $3 ea or pair) and the furniture screws they didn't carry anything close to what I saw in the picture besides grade 8 bolts. After sifting through for about an hour me and the wife finally decided to just get what was available and move on. Couldn't find any 5/8 mdf. Thinking of doing the mpc you mentioned for the 5/8 on my 3/4 pieces I already have but assigning a carve region. It any thoughts come to mind let me know, I have some a decent # of 14" carvings to do w a cutoff date, intent is to use this jig to get them done. To side step waste of materials and time. Thanks again.

bergerud
04-14-2015, 10:20 AM
I am not sure you can use 3/4" MDF for the sides if you want to hold 14" wide boards. You may have to go with 1/2". With 1/2" , the touch hole may be a weak spot. (I suppose you do not even need the touch stuff for 14" wide boards.)

I thought those furniture bolts were everywhere. (Just Google furniture bolts). I just thought they were handy. Low profile, wide heads and the CT Allen key fits. Really, any bolts will do. There are many ways to make the thing besides what I did.

aokweld101
04-14-2015, 10:41 AM
Dan, I have all intentions to build your rotary jig, I am to set my piorities I have a water leak somewhere between the house inlet and the street I have the yard tore up trying to find it and going inbetween the rain drops has'nt been easy....and having one leg to get around on... but as soon as I can I am going to build it..

blhutchens
04-14-2015, 12:35 PM
I have one assembled. Just not sure about where to put the black marks and witch holes to use on the little touch blocks (if they drill without a tracking issue). What height are they supposed to be, as in 1/4" higher/lower than the inside rails?

bergerud
04-14-2015, 12:53 PM
Just use some black electrical tape about where I put it. It is not to important where as long as you put the black under the board sensor when you first clamp it down. On the touch blocks, there are two holes. One goes through for the bolt, the other is a blind hole for a dowel stub and it goes on the bottom. The higher block is for the sliding plate side. You may want to later tweak the heights of these blocks to match your machine.

blhutchens
04-14-2015, 01:36 PM
Thanks Dan,
I will work on it while carving first litho on your rotary.
I am thinking of slotting the bottom and using downdraft.

bergerud
04-14-2015, 01:48 PM
Do you mean down draft on the rotary? I do not think that will work. The rotary shavings are long and stringy and will surely glog the slots. There is also vacuum loss between the bottom of the jig and the belts as well as under the belts.

Easy, however, to try if you already have a downdraft system.

blhutchens
04-14-2015, 02:32 PM
I have a down draft set up but never use it for the reasons you just mentioned.
On the CW I will just take the GROUNDED 4" hose off and stick it in loosely to get some of the shavings. Yours at least keeps them contained.


Here is the sled ready for testing, rotary and first litho.

bergerud
04-14-2015, 02:41 PM
Sweet. You have made my day!

blhutchens
04-14-2015, 02:48 PM
Sweet. You have made my day!

Have some of the parts for the dowel maker but no bearings that size. I may rework the mpcs to rig some thing up. I don't really want to try it without bearings though.
I have done it in the past with just a screw and a hole in the board, but that scares the hell out of me now, and would be better for more than a one time use.

bergerud
04-14-2015, 09:52 PM
I notice that you do not have the touch hole in the top of the rail.

As an experiment, see if you can get the CW to cut the touch hole. Put a mark on the rail center above the first rail bolt slot where the hole will be made. (3.25" from the front corner of the board in the carrier.) The machine has to measure the width of the carrier rails (not the board this time), so put any old board (proud 1/8") in the carrier and do not line up the board sensor on the black. (You may need aluminum tape on the carrier rails if your board sensor is not strong.) You will need to both jog to touch and jog to center. It will bob a few times at the squaring plate and then ask for the thickness. Key in more than 1. For the jog to touch, go near where the hole will be and touch the rail on the inside (next to the board edge). For the jog to center, line up on the mark.

My dry run worked ok and it was air cutting in the hole.

Edit: I should mention that you can give the carrier a test without the touch hole as long as the project has a depth less than 1/2". In that case, the firmware will not bob for the sliding plate.

PSQRD
04-16-2015, 11:44 PM
Wish me luck. I may have to take a blade and a few drill bits to it to compensate for the hardware size but I think it'll buff out. Decided to go w 1/2" all the way around, I'll keep you posted.75574

bergerud
04-17-2015, 12:46 AM
Good experiment. 1/2" all around should be good.

bergerud
04-17-2015, 01:09 AM
I thought I would try a six sided carve with the new carrier. I made a carrier board for the carrier to hold a 3" cube. It was a little tedious to get it set up. Once I did have it carving on center, I could repeat the carve six times. The x and y line up was prefect. Really worked well. I would slide out the carrier board, flip the cube and slide it back in without lifting the head or moving the main carrier in the machine. The depth was not quite deep enough but it was really an x y experiment and all carves were the same. I could not finish the last bit of the sixth carve since it fell out. Hmm. I guess I will do some sanding and see if these rings deserve to be made of better wood.

(Sorry but the mpc is Designer 2 - deep carving.)

CNC Carver
04-17-2015, 08:52 AM
That is amazing! You are moving things forward with your thinking!

bergerud
04-17-2015, 09:09 AM
I have done six sided carves before. (a sphere in a cube was one: http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?20030-Fun-Weekend-Project&p=174426#post174426) They, however, required their own elaborate jig. This "slip out the back Jack" routine is going to be quite useful.

Here are some pictures after breaking the links apart. It was difficult as the carves were not deep enough.

CNC Carver
04-17-2015, 10:11 AM
You're giving me more reasons to upgrade to 3.0

mtylerfl
04-17-2015, 10:36 AM
Pretty Cool, Dan!

Sliverfoot
04-17-2015, 03:50 PM
Amazing! Very, very nice work!

DocWheeler
04-17-2015, 04:28 PM
Actually, more than cool Dan!

bergerud
04-17-2015, 07:15 PM
Thanks a lot you guys. More cool things are possible if the machine can accurately repeat operations.

I am starting to think of this thing as a base. I see no reason to carve anything down on the belts anymore (if it will fit on the base). From now on, even jigs I make will be made to fit on the base. (I am not sure but it may be that the base also beats the tracking problems many of us have had down on the belts. Uneven boards and cutting vibrations are kept away from the tracking roller and that may be all it takes.)

carrothers
04-17-2015, 10:27 PM
This really whets my appetite...Dan if you would come to the conference this year and demonstrate this I think it would be a major attraction. I for one would definitely be there.

bergerud
04-17-2015, 10:42 PM
I will not be going to the conference but I may send a carrier base for others at the conference to play with. I am hoping to have a "final" model by then with some kind of instruction manual.

PSQRD
04-17-2015, 11:38 PM
I notice that you do not have the touch hole in the top of the rail.

As an experiment, see if you can get the CW to cut the touch hole. Put a mark on the rail center above the first rail bolt slot where the hole will be made. (3.25" from the front corner of the board in the carrier.) The machine has to measure the width of the carrier rails (not the board this time), so put any old board (proud 1/8") in the carrier and do not line up the board sensor on the black. (You may need aluminum tape on the carrier rails if your board sensor is not strong.) You will need to both jog to touch and jog to center. It will bob a few times at the squaring plate and then ask for the thickness. Key in more than 1. For the jog to touch, go near where the hole will be and touch the rail on the inside (next to the board edge). For the jog to center, line up on the mark.

My dry run worked ok and it was air cutting in the hole.

Edit: I should mention that you can give the carrier a test without the touch hole as long as the project has a depth less than 1/2". In that case, the firmware will not bob for the sliding plate.

Carrier together and I just took your advice posted. Some adjustments need to be made if 1/2" material is solely used and also based off of what hardware used. Nothing that a little elbow grease couldn't help though. I was iffy and discouraged ready to quit at one point mainly because things weren't lining up (bc the size difference) I got over myself and pushed through and re read this forum close to 20x I'm sure. The rail touch hole I was afraid of destroying the carrier I just built but decided to dive in and followed directions to a T. It WORKED!!! 75599755987560175600 Now on to first test carving.

bergerud
04-18-2015, 12:07 AM
That is great. If you are going to be using 14" wide boards, you may not need the touch stuff. Does it try the touch with 14" wide boards?

Good stuff. Let us know how it goes.

P.S. Glad the touch hole milling worked. I never actually tried it myself!

PSQRD
04-18-2015, 12:47 AM
I just popped in a 13" piece left over from the half inch sled to test carve. I gotta be honest, the measuring width process still confuses me. I have the elec tape there. cranked all the way and it said check board sensor, back off until i heard a click, still said the same, kept playing with it and it just worked and measured correctly.. weird? Then it measured length and asked where to place, I couldn't remember where to jog to position if i was supposed to so I left it to place in center. then it measured thickness, never bobbed on the sliding plate side only on brass roller side but still prompted me for thickness - thoughts? tweaks? I'm really excited about this and thank you. I have 7 plaques I need to finish by wednesday and was debating between getting to it or giving this a shot in hopes to use it on those plaques, I'm glad I gave this a shot.

bergerud
04-18-2015, 01:40 AM
Place on center is ok. It does not bob at the sliding plate unless the carve depth is greater than 1/2".

When you first start a project, don't clamp the head down at all. After you say no to stay under the rollers, it will ask you to load the board (because the roller switches are open). Slowly crank down the head until the display says press Enter to Proceed. When it gets to load bit, then crank the head the rest of the way down.

You should make some 1/8" thick shims. They are useful to get the right board height. Place them on top of the sides beside the board edge and lay a piece of scrap across the board and the shim. Squeeze the rail and the scrap with your hand and the rail will move up to the right height. Do one end then the other and then tighten the middle. That is how I do it.

There are two kinds of jogging: Jog to place and Jog to touch. It is the Jog to touch that you may have to use if the touch is going to miss the touch spots. For that, you just press STOP when you see the bit finding the board in the wrong spot.

If your carves are less than 1/2" deep or boards are more than 14" wide, you will not need to worry about the touching.

DickB
04-18-2015, 09:26 AM
Thanks a lot you guys. More cool things are possible if the machine can accurately repeat operations.

I am starting to think of this thing as a base. I see no reason to carve anything down on the belts anymore (if it will fit on the base). From now on, even jigs I make will be made to fit on the base. (I am not sure but it may be that the base also beats the tracking problems many of us have had down on the belts. Uneven boards and cutting vibrations are kept away from the tracking roller and that may be all it takes.)Another potential issue with two-sided machining is that the board or jig can drift away from the keypad-side rail. I almost always use a sled. I've been thinking about adding some kind of spring-loaded rollers to the far side of the machine to keep a sled up tight against the keypad-side rail, but haven't come up with anything yet. The sliding rail does not do a good enough job in my opinion.

bergerud
04-18-2015, 10:18 AM
I do not think I have ever had that problem as long as the board has a straight edge. Even in these operations where I run the jig back and forth many times it seems to stay against the squaring plate.

You must have mentioned this before because I remember thinking that the roller would not be able to stay in contact with the board during the whole measuring or carving operation. It would have to roll over the ends and that would be a problem. With this carrier base idea, a single roller in the middle would work since the base only moves far enough to measure the board. The base is always on both belts.

Interesting, I will watch for this drift. Even if I do not have it, others might. A spring loaded roller attached to the sliding plate could work.

PSQRD
04-18-2015, 10:57 AM
It would be something that would definitely help. I can say personally that my table saw isn't the best and has been a little less than accurate at times, that combined with the few times I have tried carving 2x4's resulted in binding in the machine. The slight warpage or off center that couldn't always be noticed by the naked eye would have been compensated for with a spring setup, the current one isn't as forgiving. If you leave the plate to far away in that instance, you get drift, too close and say goodbye to your x drive gears. Side note, test carving was a success! I used a smaller speed square from harbor freight to adjust height to 1/8 of an inch. Found out this morning that the scrap from the rail cutouts yielded one 1/8" strip that can be used for a shim - food for thought. Thanks again. 756057560675607

bergerud
04-18-2015, 11:32 AM
Nice work. I have not used the carrier for something that wide yet.

PSQRD
04-18-2015, 01:59 PM
I thought I would try a six sided carve with the new carrier. I made a carrier board for the carrier to hold a 3" cube. It was a little tedious to get it set up. Once I did have it carving on center, I could repeat the carve six times. The x and y line up was prefect. Really worked well. I would slide out the carrier board, flip the cube and slide it back in without lifting the head or moving the main carrier in the machine. The depth was not quite deep enough but it was really an x y experiment and all carves were the same. I could not finish the last bit of the sixth carve since it fell out. Hmm. I guess I will do some sanding and see if these rings deserve to be made of better wood.

(Sorry but the mpc is Designer 2 - deep carving.)
Just to be sure I understand. top board is the sub carrier for the wood block, i'm guessing the slits in the top board create a spring loaded tension on the wood block dropped in when tightening down the center threaded rod? I want to give your sphere in a cube a shot with this jig if time permits after I finish these plaques

bergerud
04-18-2015, 02:10 PM
Just to be sure I understand. top board is the sub carrier for the wood block, i'm guessing the slits in the top board create a spring loaded tension on the wood block dropped in when tightening down the center threaded rod? I want to give your sphere in a cube a shot with this jig if time permits after I finish these plaques

Exactly. You got it. I am going to work on trying to find the best "line up" procedure. I use a few different ones. The better ones are complicated.

Maybe I will get one figured out by the time you want to make the sphere in a cube and you can give it a test.

PSQRD
04-18-2015, 04:33 PM
Maybe im pushing its limits a bit much .. What's your take? Re attempt w zero carve region? The stop block side lifted upward slightly out of the carrier causing an error. I think the I tightented the threaded rod on the bottom down a bit much .75609never mind, I think I know what I did.... I need to build a longer carrier for something like this which is why the machine started acting crazy. I think the carrier left the back roller compounded by the offset angle made everything go south..

bergerud
04-18-2015, 05:26 PM
The idea is to keep the carrier under the rollers. I guess you needed a longer one!

PSQRD
04-18-2015, 05:47 PM
Hahaha! Hindsight's 20/20- I guess that's what experimentation gives us, I know what mistake not to do again. I managed to do a zero carve on just the board - cleaned most up, I'm too worried about doing a cutout incase it starts in wrong place, will probably just do that on bandsaw. Started another plaque 13.5x14.5 .. Notices a real slight warpage diagonally. I'll post results. Or am I going overkill on this thread?

bergerud
04-19-2015, 10:04 AM
I was looking at your picture of the first wide board carving and it made me think. Would central support be useful? A third side down the middle for extra support on the thin wide boards?

henry1
04-19-2015, 10:21 AM
I was looking at your picture of the first wide board carving and it made me think. Would central support be useful? A third side down the middle for extra support on the thin wide boards?

Berg you have a private message

Wood Art 1
04-19-2015, 11:10 AM
Bergerud,
In light of PSQRD problem with board lifting out of fixture and unknown issues with thin carving stock, is the location of the clamping rod at the bottom of the fixture causing a flaring affect at the top. Thereby limiting the surface contact between the sides of the fixture and the edges of the carving board - allows for more possibility of board slippage. So, are un-parallel sides an issue?

Since, I am just starting to construct your fixture, I probably should have kept my mouth shut until I could proof this out on my own. You have been an inspiration on this project - lots of patience to put up with all the questions.

henry1
04-19-2015, 11:12 AM
I was looking at your picture of the first wide board carving and it made me think. Would central support be useful? A third side down the middle for extra support on the thin wide boards?
Ok here what I like to do cut out in the center of a plate room for a adapter fit for back of clock 2 1/4 X 2 1/4 so to use what ever bit to go down 3/8 deep

bergerud
04-19-2015, 11:26 AM
Bergerud,
In light of PSQRD problem with board lifting out of fixture and unknown issues with thin carving stock, is the location of the clamping rod at the bottom of the fixture causing a flaring affect at the top. Thereby limiting the surface contact between the sides of the fixture and the edges of the carving board - allows for more possibility of board slippage. So, are un-parallel sides an issue?


PSQRD's problem was because he did not keep the carrier under the rollers. The bottom rear of the carrier went into the gap between the belts while the top was still being forced down by the rear roller. The whole carrier tilted. I do not think he was clamping the board from the side.

The clamping from the side is an extra feature which is only needed if the rails are flipped with the sandpaper down. One would only have the sandpaper down if one was wanting to slide boards in and out. The clamping then just needs to provide enough friction so the board does not slide. No need to be too tight. No need to distort the geometry of the carrier.

Wood Art 1
04-19-2015, 11:34 AM
Thanks, for the super concept and all the proofing work. I will go back to work building fixture. See lots of applications where I will put a fixture in the fixture. Jerry

bergerud
04-19-2015, 11:45 AM
Ok here what I like to do cut out in the center of a plate room for a adapter fit for back of clock 2 1/4 X 2 1/4 so to use what ever bit to go down 3/8 deep

If you just want to mill a square pocket 3/8" deep, you could use any of the cutting bits. This is what I would do.

henry1
04-19-2015, 12:43 PM
If you just want to mill a square pocket 3/8" deep, you could use any of the cutting bits. This is what I would do.

That is what I want to learn how to,, is there a( how to ) or info how to get to that point

bergerud
04-19-2015, 01:05 PM
That is what I want to learn how to,, is there a( how to ) or info how to get to that point

I just try and copy what the drill operation does. With the snap grid on, start from the inside and wind out clockwise. Then make the last round of the path fit the pocket size.

There are some tutorials on pockets. Tips and tricks maybe?

But this thread is about the board carrier.

henry1
04-19-2015, 01:14 PM
I just try and copy what the drill operation does. With the snap grid on, start from the inside and wind out clockwise. Then make the last round of the path fit the pocket size.

There are some tutorials on pockets. Tips and tricks maybe?

But this thread is about the board carrier.

Sorry about hijacking the tread and thx for the help

PSQRD
04-19-2015, 10:30 PM
Dan,
Sorry I'm just now getting back to you. You are 100% correct on my other board being too long, suprisingly most of it carved out but that's besides the point. As far as the wide boards, I've carved (4) 13.5" boards so far with small variances in each. Here are my findings. First one, didn't clamp super tight but enough for it to be snug, on the cut operation with multiple passes the board shifted left (if you're looking at the keypad) fortunately not so much that it isn't salvageable. Second board, I clamped tighter - the board held in place but wanted to pop up (each one of these boards had a slight warp/twist diagonally across them as well). Third one I added center support and used the 3/16 cutting bit without multiple passes, did well but if you look head on at the carrier there was a bit of a V from the clamping pressure going on. I wonder if it'd benefit to add sandpaper strips to the top of the adjustable rails? may create issues when trying to repeat operations but you can probably ease up on the clamping. So far best thing to work for me is a very slight taper on the board carrier from tightening the board, when it's clamped down, it straightens out - I can't think of any other way to avoid slippage. Thoughts? Also another idea I had was the width adjustment threaded rods, maybe centering them more on the carrier as opposed to the bottom? Thanks!
Paul

bergerud
04-19-2015, 11:20 PM
Don't you have the grip tape on the rails? I only used the clamp for double sided carving or operations where I wanted to slip the board in and out. When I just carve normal single side, I do not use the clamp at all. The rollers push the board onto the grip tape and there is no slip (yet that I know of). The clamp is for when the board is below the sides and does not get any down force from the rollers.

Let me recap: The rails are supposed to have grip tape on one side and not on the other. I flip them over depending on what I am doing. For normal, board 1/8" above the sides, I use the rails with grip tape up. For operations where I want to slip out the board, I use the rails smooth side up and use the clamp to stop it from sliding.

You should not be even using the clamp.

PSQRD
04-20-2015, 08:21 AM
Maybe that's it, I saw a post later where the tape wasn't on the rails itself and thought maybe I was doing it wrong (putting in the wrong place) so I removed it. Didn't realize there was a rhyme or reason there. I'll keep you posted w the next results from tonights carving. Thanks again.

bergerud
04-20-2015, 08:47 AM
This is good. We are learning things. I guess the clamp is not good enough on its own for uneven boards. I was thinking of having a row of holes through the tops of the sides so one could use some screws in cases where the boards were not so perfect. If a board is not flat and is above the rails in places, it could shift under the roller pressure.

bergerud
04-20-2015, 09:05 AM
Just to be more versatile, I had thought to add these holes. They could be used for screws for uneven boards or pins to hold more elaborate fixtures.

Wood Art 1
04-21-2015, 11:14 PM
Dan, you are a genius. Just got the first piece out of the Bergerud fixture. Worked just as advertised. Building it was kind of like copying a recipe for aunt Mary's fantastic cake. You know, substituting baking powder for baking soda and wondering why it doesn't taste like aunt Mary's. Well I didn't have 3/8 rod - had 5/16, didn't have 1/2" stock - had 5/8 plywood. Went ahead anyway. As you can see from the picture, I still have a few things to fix. Had some knobs (fit the 5/16 rod), painted the tops of the rails black and added a tool to set the top of the carving board 1/8" proud. Got it working, now to learn all the things I can do with it. PS. Couldn' get it to measure a 5" L board - 6 1/2" L board was OK (under both rollers). I will have to follow these postings religiously to figure out all the possibilities. Thanks for your inspiration, hard work and patience.

bergerud
04-22-2015, 12:36 AM
Nice. You can only measure boards longer than 6". My trick was to measure a longer board and then switch in the shorter one.

Edit: it looks from the picture that you have the touch hole and blocks down at the opposite end as the design. You must have to do a bit of extra jogging.

I like the tool. I made (or had left over) 1/8" shims. I use them on top of the sides to set the 1/8" proud. I also, however, use them under the board when I am measuring a board I want to later drop down into the carrier. That is the trick to set up for sliding boards in and out.

bergerud
04-22-2015, 03:50 AM
The CW machine is really very accurate at what it does on a board. The inaccuracy problems come from the machine not knowing exactly where the board is. The process of measuring the board is not nearly as accurate as the cutting operations are on the board. This can be a problem for double sided carving. If one wants the sides of the carve to line up with the same accuracy as the cutting operations, one cannot rely on board measurement. The two sided mpc project where you flip the board and remeasure is not very reliable. Methods with two mpc and jogging to place the carvings on each side works a little better, but, it depends on eyeball - push button accuracy and the bit just never seems to return to the exact spot.

I have tried many different methods. Some of which I am trying with the carrier base. What I would like to do is prove to you that it can be done by explaining a process which does always work.

First design a double sided, two mpc project in Designer on the smallest possible board. Also, design a carrier board with a pocket which will hold the small project board. Put the board for the carrier board in the carrier base with shims under it. Measure it, take out the shims, lower the board below the sides, clamp it, and cut the pocket in the center. Next, slide out the carrier and put the project board in the pocket. Slide the carrier board in and carve side 1. Slide the carrier out, flip the board in the pocket, slide it back in, and carve side 2.

The accuracy of the whole operation does not depend on "where the measured carrier board was". The machine cut the pocket where it decided center was and it knows now exactly where that is. This means that the machine knows exactly where the project board will be. Since the carrier base does not move during the swapping in and out of the project carrier, both sides of the project will be carved with the best possible accuracy. The same accuracy that the machine cuts with.

Now, I am not saying that this is the only method. It requires a "sacrificial" carrier board. The method, however, does prove that consistently accurate double sided carving is possible.

bergerud
04-22-2015, 10:58 PM
Today I made a shorter, deeper carrier base. I think that maybe there should be a few sizes. This one will hold boards up to 12" long and 3" thick. (The first carrier held up to 18" long and 2" thick.) I was also thinking that a very long one would also be useful. One say which would hold up to 30" long and 1.5" thick.

Sliverfoot
04-23-2015, 03:15 PM
Dan
I've been following this thread almost daily and I'm hoping to have this weekend free so that I can make your carrier. I'm anxious to experiment with it. I have looked at both the local Menards and Home Depot and neither handles 5/8 MDF. I have plenty of 3/4 MDF around the shop, other than the extra weight does it matter if I use 3/4? Otherwise I suppose I could pick up one of those white wood or oak edge glued panels that the stores sell and plane it down but like you've said MDF is cheap.
I can only echo what others have said. Thank you so much for taking the initiative and designing this carrier. It looks like something that will be a regular whenever I run a project. I wouldn't have a clue how to start designing something like this.

bergerud
04-23-2015, 03:38 PM
You can use 1/2" or 3/4" MDF. I just like 5/8" because of some of the touch spots and it seems like the right size for strength. Give the 1/2" a try.

Sliverfoot
04-23-2015, 04:02 PM
Ok I'll do that. I have some and both places carry it if I need more. I just thought that the 1/2 got a little thin for the touch hole.

bergerud
04-23-2015, 04:24 PM
I just thought that the 1/2 got a little thin for the touch hole.

True. But then with 3/4", the first board touch can miss the board. Hence the 5/8". The 3/4" problem can be fixed with an under cut so the keypad side fits 1/8" over the squaring plate. Others have already used 1/2" but you could go either way.

bergerud
04-23-2015, 10:55 PM
Today I made a long carrier base. It holds up to 34" long boards. It may be the most useful size for users who just want to carve one side of a variety of board sizes. I have a slightly different idea for using it. It is not too heavy but it is long. I was thinking that if one always put the board in the middle, it could be kept balanced. To this end I think I will make a few touch holes along the length. One would have to jog to the nearest touch hole. (If one wants to measure the board width that is. If one uses the carrier width, no touch hole is needed.) I have yet to experiment with it.

Here are some pictures of the different sizes.

edsingletary
04-24-2015, 02:36 PM
Just curious, I'm not yet advanced into carriers yet, but I will need to in order to carve on a board pre carved. But why are the ends angled, what purpose does it serve aside from looking cool.

bergerud
04-24-2015, 03:04 PM
Just curious, I'm not yet advanced into carriers yet, but I will need to in order to carve on a board pre carved. But why are the ends angled, what purpose does it serve aside from looking cool.

I did not want a sharp corner to catch when loading it into the machine. The top has to be longer to stay under the rollers but the bottom only has to stay on the belts and so that extra weight is not needed. Ok, it just looks cool!

(Actually, now that you made me think about it, the original design was on a base board. The weight of the base board was limiting the length of the jig. I angled the ends to minimize the size of the base board. No one saw that model. Then, after eliminating the base board all together, I liked how the angles looked and just kept them.)

edsingletary
04-24-2015, 03:10 PM
Cool, thanks, so when can I order mine.

bergerud
04-24-2015, 05:22 PM
Testing of the long carrier base is going pretty well. One has to have the out feed tables adjusted. They are also useful to roll the carrier in and out of the machine. Instead of sliding on sandpaper or rubber, the rollers make it easy.

Here is a picture of a carrier being made in a carrier. (Rise of the machines!)

bergerud
04-25-2015, 02:55 PM
Here is a video of the long carrier base being used to cut out some more parts. Just drop the board in and away it goes. When it is finished, just lift the board out. This changes the machine for me. Like the scanning sled, something like this should have been a standard accessory for the machine right from the get go. Now that I have it before me, it seems so simple. Why had we not thought of this before?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVVS6HOHK_E

Dale
04-25-2015, 04:50 PM
As mentioned before you need to make these plans available throught the PatternDepot so you can be somewhat reimbursed for your time and effort! Great job.

bergerud
04-25-2015, 05:49 PM
As mentioned before you need to make these plans available throught the PatternDepot so you can be somewhat reimbursed for your time and effort! Great job.

Thanks, Dale. I think that is what I will do. I think the plans as well as detailed instructions as to its construction and use would make a good project for the depot.

I welcome any forum member who can make enough sense out of my posts to make and use a carrier to do so. I would appreciate feedback and ideas as I work on a user manual. At this point I think there will be two models. A basic long carrier for the single sided projects and a shorter, more advanced model. The advanced model would provide a base for advanced carving techniques. Things like accurate double sided carving, replication, and precise pattern placement.

bergerud
04-26-2015, 02:19 PM
Here is what I am going to call the Advanced Carrier Base. I made this one out of 1/2" MDF and it seems ok. The only thing i did different was make the touch hole in the rail 5/16" instead of 3/8".

This is supposed to be the "Swiss Army Knife" version. It can just hold a board on the sandpaper rails or it can be used for more elaborate things. With the sandpaper rails flipped over, boards or fixtures can be slid in and out without lifting the head as it can be used as a clamp to hold boards without the need for the above roller pressure.

I plan on finding many uses for this thing.

PSQRD
04-26-2015, 02:42 PM
Well done! Just an fyi, I tried doing a 14.5" board last night with no luck. It kept telling me to clear board sensor, I played around with it a bit, still no luck. My thoughts are we can probably only carve up to 14" wide if you count the remainder of the inset of the carrier on both sides. Just to further explain, my carrier is 1/2" mdf all the way around which means the rails or at least the distance from the keypad is counted by the machine when it comes to measuring. Maybe 14 1/4? I'll make an attempt when I come back from this trip at something a slight bit less as wide and see what happens. I wasn't getting the error until the z chuck got to the far side of the machine. The current model looks pretty phenomenal, and on a side note you were right, the electrical tape did provide enough friction for the board not to move (even with one pass using a 3/16 cutting bit through 7/8 board), at least on a flat one, I haven't reattempted a twisted board again yet.

bergerud
04-26-2015, 02:50 PM
I was just playing last night with the 14.5" wide problem. I had 5/8" wide rails and I figured 14" was the best I could do even with under cutting to keypad side to go over the squaring plate. So, you may be right. I should give it a try again with the 1/2" wide sides.

bergerud
04-26-2015, 03:39 PM
I just tried the 14.5" width with my 1/2" wide sides and I could get it to measure if I moved the whole carrier 1/4" toward the keypad. So, if you under cut the bottom of the keypad side so the side fits 1/4" over the squaring plate, it should work. (I would try 3/16" first.) It can be done.

One could also just put a piece of electrical tape 1/4" onto the board on the right side so the machine measures 14.25". That way you can carve on the 14.5" board.

PSQRD
04-27-2015, 01:07 AM
I'm somewhat following. Can you include a photo or two to help understand what you're getting at? Like where the electrical tape would be placed or what you mean by undercutting it/moving it a 1/4" toward keypad? I'm trying to follow just don't completely understand what you mean.

bergerud
04-27-2015, 10:00 AM
The tape would be the easiest trick. The machine does not measure the sides of the carrier because they are black. If you let the tape creep up onto the right side of the board 1/4", the machine would measure the board to be 1/4" narrower. Since you are probably not going to carve on the last 1/4", it should not matter.

(There is another idea here. The rollers are 17" long, so, a 17" wide board could actually fit in the machine. The machine could not measure it but it would fit. You could put black tape on each side 14.5" apart and the machine would think it was a 14.5" board. You would only be able to carve on the 14.5" region but the board would be 17" wide. (I will have to experiment with this. There may be a problem with the brass roller bob.))

By undercut the left rail, I just meant to saw or router out the corner so it would fit over the squaring plate. I did it to one of my early prototypes.

PSQRD
04-27-2015, 01:26 PM
Copy all. Thanks! That would definitely help when it comes to lumber yard materials. Sometimes wider/thicker than what you prefer so options are to pay more per board for ripping and planing or do it yourself which sometimes would mean for me ripping to 12" and under, planing, then gluing back up. Anyways thanks for this. Quite a thread going on here. Haha! Rise of the Machines!

bergerud
04-27-2015, 02:28 PM
I believe I can perform a 14.5" wide carving on a 16" or 17" inch wide board with the sandpaper rails put right to the top of the carrier sides. Would this be of interest to you sign makers? (A little slight of hand may be required to deal with the bob at the brass roller.)

I will do an experiment tonight to see just how wide I can go and how centered the carve region can be.

Iron Mike
04-27-2015, 03:12 PM
bergerud (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5859-bergerud)

Following your sled project closely and looking forward to a final design that I will make. The 17" wide board is something I would like to see. I believe you could carve most of the 17" width for 'some' projects if you would first carve 14.5 wide close to the left edge, then rotate the board 180 degrees and 'rotate' the 'second' pattern to carve along the ~2.5" blank portion. Would work OK for text and such I believe . . . just have to work out position alignment etc. ????

bergerud
04-27-2015, 03:46 PM
Interesting idea. It might be more trouble than it is worth. I was just hoping to get the 14.5 inch wide carve in the middle of a bigger board.

bergerud
04-27-2015, 09:25 PM
Here is an example of a 15" wide project carved on a 17" wide board. It can be done! This was the first try at putting the sandpaper rails at the top of the carrier sides and having the board go across the carrier. Not the most exciting project, just an experiment!

Precise line up would be difficult. It would be tricky to just have the pattern centered. (Actually, I do not think it can be centered on a 17" wide board. See how the black tape needed to be off center. It could be centered on a 16.5" wide board.) One could also carve it and then trim the sides to center it.

bergerud
05-02-2015, 11:06 AM
I have been working on a write up for what I am calling "The Universal Carrier Base" (UCB). I plan to become a vendor and put it on the CW site as a project next week. I have no idea how this is going to go, this is all new to me. Here is my cover page so far. I have 6 or 7 pages for the write up. (I could have made 10 of these things in the time it takes to explain it all!) Not only do I have to explain how to make it, but I also have to explain how to use it.

I have gone with the 1/2" MDF as opposed to the 5/8" MDF which I prefer since the 5/8" MDF seems hard to find. Trying to keep it simple. The main model (UCB 24) is long enough to hold 24" long boards. I will also include a 36" model. I figured I would label this as an Intermediate Level Project.

I am pretty excited about this. See the sign I cut in the y direction with no waste.

Iron Mike
05-02-2015, 12:52 PM
Good for you, hope it works out!

Looking forward to building one.

THANKS

Dale
05-02-2015, 01:50 PM
Looking forward to it. I'll be one of your first customers.

peep
05-02-2015, 02:03 PM
Count me in! this is something I surly cold use!

mikemi
05-02-2015, 09:06 PM
I know I will be getting it. Thanks for your hard work and dedication on this project.

Mike

DonCP
05-08-2015, 12:57 PM
Went out and actually found and purchased the hardware locally from your cover sheet. Let us know when we can buy it. I can't wait.

Any recommended 5/16 Forstner bits? Amazon has slim pickens on that size. Will another size work?

Thanks for your idea and efforts.

As much as there is plenty of help in this Thread, prefer to work from your project from the start. That way could provide feedback.

bergerud
05-08-2015, 01:57 PM
The project was supposed to be up yesterday. Any time I guess. I will start a new thread when it does.

It does not have to be a Forstner bit. It is just that they are accurate to start, cut clean, and do not wander. I think we are stuck with the 5/16 hole since the side is only 1/2" and the bit bobs closer to the outside edge. (Maybe you could try making a drill guide from a piece of scrap. Test drill on a pieces of scrap and when it looks right, clamp the scrap above the side and drill through it into the side.)

bergerud
05-08-2015, 05:52 PM
The Universal Carrier Base project is now up in the Pattern Depot. I started a new thread:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?27444-The-Universal-Carrier-Base

carrothers
05-09-2015, 12:09 PM
got it downloaded...can't wait to get the hardware and start the project....

bergerud
05-09-2015, 12:25 PM
Can't wait to see you make it and try it!

edsingletary
05-16-2015, 04:44 PM
I got the carrier, not carved it yet, but looks like a project in itself. You say the Carvewright will find the edges etc and I don't have jog to a corner. I have so much trouble jogging to a corner and getting it exact.

bergerud
05-16-2015, 05:02 PM
I got the carrier, not carved it yet, but looks like a project in itself. You say the Carvewright will find the edges etc and I don't have jog to a corner. I have so much trouble jogging to a corner and getting it exact.

Sorry but I do not understand your question. Is it about cutting out the carrier itself or about how the carrier works with a board in it?

Dale
05-16-2015, 06:06 PM
Just finished my first carve using the carrier. Worked like as champ! No more taping pieces to each end of the board.
Thank you Bergerud.

bergerud
05-16-2015, 07:02 PM
Just finished my first carve using the carrier. Worked like as champ! No more taping pieces to each end of the board.
Thank you Bergerud.

Woo Hoo, great to hear!

edsingletary
05-17-2015, 08:15 AM
Sorry for being a little vague, my question was about the board in the carrier, once I get it done. When I place a board in the carrier, CarveWright will detect the edges and measure, I don't have to jog at all.

bergerud
05-17-2015, 10:12 AM
Sorry for being a little vague, my question was about the board in the carrier, once I get it done. When I place a board in the carrier, CarveWright will detect the edges and measure, I don't have to jog at all.

There are two types of Jogs.

The CW will measure the board on the carrier as if it was down on the belts. You then have the all same kinds of choices for placement of the project. Place on Center, Place on corner, or Jog to Place. I have suggested just using Place on Center at first just to keep it simple. You do not have to Jog to place the project.

One does, however, have to jog to touch. When the CW goes for its bob at the sliding plate, the carrier touch blocks have to be lined up in the x. One has to use Jog to Touch to do that. (There are cases where the CW does not do the bob at the sliding plate and, in those cases, you would not need to jog. For example, no bob if the project cuts under 1/2" deep into the board. No bob if the board is 14" or more wide. No bob , I have seen, with the deep bits.)

I hope I answered your question.

SteveNelson46
05-17-2015, 11:02 AM
Dan,

I am in the process of building the UCB so I haven't had a chance to experiment with it yet. How does it handle 2 sided carves with "Place on Center" selected?

EDIT: I think I should have put this message in the "Universal Carrier Base" thread.

bergerud
05-17-2015, 11:46 AM
The single project two sided carve using the UCB is the same as it would be down on the belts. The board has to get measured twice and therein lies the possible error. In my experience, the only way to get consistently accurate two sided carves is to have two separate projects for the front and back and measure only once. That is, the carrier has to stay fixed in the machine while the board is flipped.

This is what I am currently working on. I have tried many different ways to do this. I am trying to come up with a simple, bullet proof method. It requires an alternate clamping method and being able to slide the board in and out of the Carrier Base while the Carrier Base stays under compression.

bergerud
05-20-2015, 08:40 PM
Here is a double sided carve fresh out of the machine. My Department's name has changed from "The Department of Mathematics" to "The Department of Mathematics and Statistics". The old sign I made for the chair had become obsolete and a new one had to be made.

I had a piece of quarter sawn Garry Oak which was barely wide enough. (You have all been there, I am sure!) I cut up some strips of MDF to go under the board and beside the board. Under so I would not cut the rails of my carrier and beside the board so the machine would not "auto jig" and do a shallow cutout.

Anyway, this was a regular double sided carve with cutout done on the carrier. The machine measures the width twice on the first side of a double sided project and I was worried that it might not measure in the same place the second time. It did. Also, the question gets asked " Is the Board in a Jig?" to which you must answer NO.

SteveNelson46
05-20-2015, 11:42 PM
That carrier looks a lot deeper than the one that I made. It also has 2 extra knobs. Is this one of your experimental carriers or did you just modify the UCB?

bergerud
05-21-2015, 12:27 AM
This is my experimental carrier. It can clamp from the side and boards can be slid in and out without lifting the head. I was using it before for the six sided carves.

SteveNelson46
05-21-2015, 01:32 AM
I usually carve my signature on the back of most of my projects so it is nice to know that the carrier will handle 2-sided carves. Especially where both sides have to be aligned.

bergerud
05-21-2015, 10:19 AM
Double sided carves seem to work ok. I tried to do one by measuring the carrier width instead of the board. (Measured at a non black spot on the sides.) It seems like this could be useful. The second width measurement, however, lined up with the black spots and measured the board instead. I need to do some more experimenting with this.

In the past, I have had many projects (double sided and single) ruined by the cutout in the end. That uncertainty in the final outcome (and fear of breaking cutting bits) has made the cutouts a stressful operation for me and other users. So far, all of my cutouts with these carriers have come out perfect. I am starting to believe that the carrier beats the bad tracking problems. If this is true, it may turn out to be the most important benefit of using the carrier.

Time will tell. If anyone has any tracking issues with these carriers, I want to know.

bergerud
06-02-2015, 08:08 PM
I just finished a Board Carrier very similar to the UCB 24 and packaged it up to send to the conference. I really hope the people at LHR give it a good work out. At the very least, I hope they put it out on display at the conference. I figure just using it to measure boards would make for an interesting demonstration. It has a few tweaks and some extra features.

1. It has the extra slots for the side clamping. (For sliding boards in and out while the carrier stays in the machine.)

2. I found some propell nuts which seem better than T nuts. http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=40361&cat=3,43715,43727

3. I left out the stop blocks in the front and replaced them with removable dowel stops.

4. I put brass sleeves in the movable side to slide more easily on the ready rod. (Thanks to Steve Nelson for the idea.)

5. I added a new way to measure. Black on the left and silver tape on the right. You can use Place On Corner and not have to jog to a touch hole.

Anyway, if you have not made your own and see it at the conference, I hope you can play with it. If you have made your own and see it at the conference, you can show them how it works!

mtylerfl
06-02-2015, 08:13 PM
That's a beautiful jig! (and functional too, of course!!) Can't wait to see it in person.

bergerud
06-02-2015, 08:18 PM
That's a beautiful jig! (and functional too, of course!!) Can't wait to see it in person.

It's yours. If you can talk them out of it, you can have it. Take it home from the conference.

SteveNelson46
06-02-2015, 08:23 PM
Dan,

Do you plan to update the version in the Pattern Depot or do we have to buy it again to get the mods?

bergerud
06-02-2015, 08:57 PM
I do plan to update the project at some point. I have a bit of a problem here. I cannot update the project every time a new idea comes along. I would have to do many rewrites of the instructions. (Connie might not be too happy for the extra work!)

I think I have a work around. I believe that I can post a Pattern Depot protected file here on the forum and only people who have bought the original will be able to open it. I could post updates for anyone who has bought into the project. It would be like beta testing between releases. After enough changes and testing have been done, the project could be updated in the pattern Depot and then all buyers informed.

mtylerfl
06-02-2015, 09:19 PM
It's yours. If you can talk them out of it, you can have it. Take it home from the conference.

Thank You very, very much! I'll try to talk them out of it, but I imagine it might be difficult once they get used to it! I believe it is a great "must have" accessory - saves money and saves lots of wood.

bergerud
06-02-2015, 09:36 PM
Thank You very, very much! I'll try to talk them out of it, but I imagine it might be difficult once they get used to it! I believe it is a great "must have" accessory - saves money and saves lots of wood.

You are welcome. I know you would never have time to make it.

bergerud
06-03-2015, 11:33 AM
After sleeping on this, I have changed my tune a little.

If anyone who has bought into the UCB Project is interested in the carrier I made for the conference, here is the project file. It is protected by the licensing system and can only be opened if you have a license for the UCB Project.

This is a special carrier I have made for the conference and was not intended as an update to the UCB Project. It does have some trivial improvements that I plan to update the UCB project with, but it also has features which I plan to use in a new Advanced Carrier Base Project. The side clamping feature, for example, will be used for replication and double sided carving. My plan is to keep the UCB as a simple carrier and implement the more complicated "sliding boards in and out" operations with the ACB. I think the operation of the UCB, as it is, is complicated enough.

I would only be too happy to have members experiment with the more complicated carriers. To this end, I think I will post improvements and updates here in this thread. They will have to be protected files, and so, one does have to buy in to play.

(I hope posting protected files does not offend anyone.)

CNC Carver
06-03-2015, 12:40 PM
Thanks for using those who have purchased. I will be buying soon. Wife has given me the green light!

oscarl48
06-05-2015, 04:38 PM
Dan,

Thank you for your generosity for giving us access to the ACB. Just went out and picked up all the material to cut the jig out. It was killing me knowing I had the pattern and had to wait till the weekend to get at it. I really want to use it to test my double sided carving patterns.

Regards,
Oscar

DonCP
06-09-2015, 02:18 PM
Thank you for the design, I think it is great! Would like suggestions if you need to do cutouts. Put a board underneath and tape etc?
Saw a post were you used spacers. Just getting ideas.

Thanks

bergerud
06-09-2015, 02:36 PM
I have no problem with cutouts. The tabs seem to hold fine with the board in space. You could always add a few more tabs or make the tabs thicker. I do use support boards under wide, thin boards. I just use MDF the same size and tape the boards together around the edges. (I was thinking of making a support rib like a third side which could run down the middle of the carrier.)

henry1
06-13-2015, 07:22 PM
Well thanks to bergerud UCB got some of pattern done works great ,here are some clocks of NHL here another
one just finish

bergerud
06-13-2015, 08:04 PM
Looking good Henry. You have to help Suzanne make a carrier.

henry1
06-14-2015, 08:33 AM
Looking good Henry. You have to help Suzanne make a carrier.

I offerd but ,, she never got back to me , and now I have to many orders , don't have time now

Sliverfoot
06-14-2015, 12:18 PM
Great painting job! Well done.

aokweld101
06-14-2015, 03:03 PM
Dan, I went to the hardware store (Home Depot) and we had us a problem, we are still using inches or decimals instead of millimeters I guess we the united states are still in the stone ages I had to laugh at the gentleman that was helping us, I had no idea what the 30 or 40 millimeters was and neither did he. I was just wondering if you could use inches or decimals for us dummies here in the states. :rolleyes:

bergerud
06-14-2015, 03:11 PM
30mm -> (30/25.4)=1.18", 40mm -> (40/25.4)=1.57" 1" and 1.5" would be ok I bet.

Dale
06-14-2015, 03:36 PM
I got mine at Lowes and they were marked in MM's

Chip
06-14-2015, 07:58 PM
Great job Henry. Keep up the good work.

mikemi
06-14-2015, 08:24 PM
I got mine at Lowes and they were marked in MM's

Same here.

zan29
06-14-2015, 09:05 PM
Just being too busy with a store display. But on the other hand, I tried it again yesterday and it was perfect all the way so I'll probably be able to do my own. Henry could you help me put it together at least?? Oh please please please. Did you find everything at homedepot??


I offerd but ,, she never got back to me , and now I have to many orders , don't have time now

henry1
06-15-2015, 01:47 AM
Just being too busy with a store display. But on the other hand, I tried it again yesterday and it was perfect all the way so I'll probably be able to do my own. Henry could you help me put it together at least?? Oh please please please. Did you find everything at homedepot??

yes I did find everything at home depot and the instruction are all there and bergerud couldn't have made it any clearer

henry1
06-19-2015, 11:20 AM
Question on a 2 sided carve , how would you set it for the carrier to stay at same place so to turn the board around ??

bergerud
06-19-2015, 11:38 AM
Question on a 2 sided carve , how would you set it for the carrier to stay at same place so to turn the board around ??

That is a feature of the advanced carrier base I am working on. The rails have to be flipped so the sandpaper is down and you need the side clamping. One puts shims under the board to get the 1/8" for the measure and then slides the shims out and lowers the board just below the sides. That way the board can be slid in and out without lifting the head.

But, as I said, I am working on it.

henry1
06-19-2015, 11:58 AM
That is a feature of the advanced carrier base I am working on. The rails have to be flipped so the sandpaper is down and you need the side clamping. One puts shims under the board to get the 1/8" for the measure and then slides the shims out and lowers the board just below the sides. That way the board can be slid in and out without lifting the head.

But, as I said, I am working on it.
thx for the reply but I am experimenting with it also will let you know if it work for what I am trying

bergerud
07-09-2015, 01:34 PM
Just playing with the ACB. Being able to make double sided parts accurately is probability the most important thing I want the CW to be able to do. Here are two double sided carves which also fit together. Even the blocks of MDF they are made of line up. The carrier in the carrier base was measured only once and then all the four carves were made without any remeasuring. I would slide the carrier in and out while flipping the piece in it. Each side was a separate project.

Making prototypes seems to me to be a use of the machine which should be more popular. I love it.

(There is no way anyone would guess what this is going to be!) First try on the table, second on the carrier. After a few more MDF carves, and I will carve it out of cast acyclic.

want2b
07-09-2015, 03:38 PM
Making a bubble gum machine?
Rick H

Gary Koval
07-10-2015, 07:02 AM
I know what it is, it's a prototype for a "Dyson" vacuum. The "ball" type. Lol.

blhutchens
07-10-2015, 07:07 AM
Just playing with the ACB. Being able to make double sided parts accurately is probability the most important thing I want the CW to be able to do. Here are two double sided carves which also fit together. Even the blocks of MDF they are made of line up. The carrier in the carrier base was measured only once and then all the four carves were made without any remeasuring. I would slide the carrier in and out while flipping the piece in it. Each side was a separate project.

Making prototypes seems to me to be a use of the machine which should be more popular. I love it.

(There is no way anyone would guess what this is going to be!) First try on the table, second on the carrier. After a few more MDF carves, and I will carve it out of cast acyclic.


Its a Tesla turbine to hook up to your dust collector!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome!!!!!!!

rickroy
07-10-2015, 07:33 AM
Here is a double sided carve fresh out of the machine. My Department's name has changed from "The Department of Mathematics" to "The Department of Mathematics and Statistics". The old sign I made for the chair had become obsolete and a new one had to be made.

Also, the question gets asked " Is the Board in a Jig?" to which you must answer NO.
BEAUTIFUL sign professor! And I appreciate your firming up the "No" response to the jig question. Some things we learn by trial and error, and error, and error ... so having another like minded solution is a wonderful thing. Thanks for your pursuit of a great sled.

DickB
07-10-2015, 10:31 AM
Being able to make double sided parts accurately is probability the most important thing I want the CW to be able to do.Is the machine locating the board (carrier) with the optical sensor? If so, it must locate the y edges symmetrically for your parts to align properly. It appears that it is doing that well.

bergerud
07-10-2015, 11:31 AM
Is the machine locating the board (carrier) with the optical sensor? If so, it must locate the y edges symmetrically for your parts to align properly. It appears that it is doing that well.
Yes, in this case, I was using the y centering from the board sensor. However, I do not take it for granted. The carrier has a, y centered, pin mark on it which was made at the same time the pocket was cut. I first run an alignment mpc with a sharp pointer to check. Then I run the rest of the projects.

bergerud
07-16-2015, 02:16 PM
I have been working on making rails for the ACB which "Pop Up". It would eliminate the shims and make it much quicker to get the board set up.

Here is my first attempt, which is really a failure. It is just too complicated and too dependent on machine accuracy to make.

The idea is to have rails which can hold the board up the 1/8" for the measuring stage and then let the board drop down flush with the carrier sides for the carving. My first thought was just pins which would pop up. I may go back to that. It has to be simple to make.

zan29
07-16-2015, 02:41 PM
I guess I'll wait some more before buying the project.........simple is what I'm looking for........:p

bergerud
07-16-2015, 03:30 PM
I guess I'll wait some more before buying the project.........simple is what I'm looking for........:p


This is the Advanced Carrier Base, not to be confused with the "simple" Universal Carrier Base!

zan29
07-16-2015, 05:07 PM
I didn't even know there was two of them!

sunmiztres
07-19-2015, 12:16 PM
I guess I'll wait some more before buying the project.........simple is what I'm looking for........:p

I wouldn't wait for the UCB, if you buy the UCB which is simple then you get access to the advanced. It is very easy and works very well. Cuts the loading time of the project almost 50% and I have never had a tracking issue since I have used it. Best 25$ I have Spent. Dan is also there for you if there is a problem which is usually machine related as every machine is a bit different.

lynnfrwd
07-19-2015, 01:43 PM
I wouldn't wait for the UCB, if you buy the UCB which is simple then you get access to the advanced.

How is that supposed to work?

bergerud
07-19-2015, 01:58 PM
I posted a more advanced carrier base file in this thread which only people who have bought the UCB can open.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?27235-Experimental-Board-Carrier&p=247053#post247053

I invite anyone who has bought into the UCB to help me experiment with the ACB prototypes. In that sense, I guess, they get access to some ACB features. In the end, however, I hope to put up the ACB as a new project in the pattern depot.

For example, I am on my third try at making pop up rails. If they work, will post them here for UCB people to try.

sunmiztres
07-19-2015, 05:36 PM
Where did you get the knob for the clamps on the ACB? I have the ACB made except for the clamps as I ran out of nuts and don't have the knob.

bergerud
07-19-2015, 06:52 PM
Where did you get the knob for the clamps on the ACB? I have the ACB made except for the clamps as I ran out of nuts and don't have the knob.


Gee, I do not remember. Home Depot?

aokweld101
07-19-2015, 10:03 PM
I do my shopping at Lowe's for the knob and drawer pulls... home depot doesn't carry the knobs.

bergerud
07-19-2015, 10:09 PM
Canada is probably different even for the same stores. The knob is for 3/8" course thread and may not be that easy to find. Most knobs are for 1/4" and 5/16".

Mugsowner
07-20-2015, 05:49 AM
Around here I would be heading to Ace hareware, as they have a better hardware selection. One other place to look would be McMaster-Carr, which is online. Pricey, but they will have what you need.

aokweld101
07-20-2015, 07:34 AM
Where I'm from is a tourist town, when I first had gotten here 23 yrs ago, at that time you had to go to the store and order even a crescent wrench... we came a long way over 23 yrs to get knobs.....

bergerud
07-20-2015, 08:47 PM
Third try is the charm. I finally have a design for pop up rails which works.

With the UCB, one mounts the board 1/8" above the carrier to trick the machine into measuring the length of the board. With the ACB, one puts shims under the board to get the 1/8". After the board is measured, the shims are removed and the board lowered into the carrier. The board ends up slightly below the carrier sides and is held in place by side clamps (instead of the sandpaper rails and rollers like the UCB). The reason for this is so that the board can be slid in and out of the machine without lifting the head.

The new pop up rails eliminate the need to use shims. One sets the rails, as before, so the board is just below the carrier sides. Then one pops up the rails instead of using shims and tightens the side clamps. The board is now 1/8" above the carrier. Alter the board is measured, one releases the pop up rails, releases the clamps, and cranks down the head. The board sinks down into the carrier, one re-tightens the clamps and the set up is done.

The main problem with the pop up rails is that they have to release while under some roller pressure. My first attempts involved sliding parts which froze under the pressure. Too much friction. This last attempt beats the friction problem. I think, however, to be dependable, they will have to be made of hardwood.

I know it looks complicated with many parts but the machine can cut then all out!

A little more tweaking and a hardwood model is next.

oscarl48
07-20-2015, 10:25 PM
That doesn't look complicated at all. lol. It is though, a very ingenious and good looking tool.

Nicely done.

henry1
07-21-2015, 06:01 AM
Now that is nice, can't wait to try it don't look complicated at all like Oscar said, a very ingenious and good looking tool

CNC Carver
07-21-2015, 06:56 AM
That looks like it will work wonderful. Nice work again!
Jeff

henry1
07-21-2015, 08:03 AM
With the UCB the new one will you putting in the CW for sale ,, forgot to ask what would be the thickness of wood for this project

aokweld101
07-21-2015, 08:29 AM
Dan, I have say you have helped a lot of people along the carvewright trail that is one kool idea your thinking is outside the box. The things that you have contributed the carvewright is awesome of all the jigs that you have thought of in the last 2 yrs the dowel maker, rotary jig, ucb, and now the ACB, that is a lot of thinking for one man. I have concluded that I have to build shelves in part of the shop dedicated to you and I'll call it Dan's corner...lol

aokweld101
07-21-2015, 08:47 AM
As a little side joke to to Zan29..This is the new and SIMPLE board carrier !! ;)

zan29
07-21-2015, 09:13 AM
Thanks John........I am all about simple......well I think! :p

bergerud
07-21-2015, 10:05 AM
With the UCB the new one will you putting in the CW for sale ,, forgot to ask what would be the thickness of wood for this project

I am not sure. I like 5/8". Maybe I will have versions for both 1/2" and 5/8". It will take me awhile to get this done. The write up is going to be long. First I should update the UCB with a few small changes and add the roller shims to the project.


Thanks John........I am all about simple......well I think! :razz:

I too am all about simple. Simple is elegant. I tried and tried to think of a simpler way to have the rails pop up and down. This is the simplest I have come up with so far. Even though they are a bit complicated, they make the operation of the ACB simpler. (They would also make the operation of the UCB simpler but I want to keep the UCB as simple a project as possible.)

bergerud
07-21-2015, 10:11 AM
Dan, I have say you have helped a lot of people along the carvewright trail that is one kool idea your thinking is outside the box. The things that you have contributed the carvewright is awesome of all the jigs that you have thought of in the last 2 yrs the dowel maker, rotary jig, ucb, and now the ACB, that is a lot of thinking for one man. I have concluded that I have to build shelves in part of the shop dedicated to you and I'll call it Dan's corner...lol

Thanks Aubrey. You should see my pile of failures and prototypes!

henry1
07-25-2015, 12:13 PM
This is the Advanced Carrier Base, not to be confused with the "simple" Universal Carrier Base!

well berg all done and sue is getting the one here are some pic now that is different waiting for your reply

bergerud
07-25-2015, 12:42 PM
Looking good Henry. I think I have just come up with a new way to setup for double sided carves. Get one or two cross clamps and get ready to experiment.

henry1
07-25-2015, 12:49 PM
Looking good Henry. I think I have just come up with a new way to setup for double sided carves. Get one or two cross clamps and get ready to experiment.

Just wondering about the 3 rd mark I pointed to why are they there

bergerud
07-25-2015, 12:55 PM
The marks on the keypad side are just to help line up the x when you jog. The marks are right across from the touch holes.

You will need 4 1/8" thick shims (3 or 4 inches long) to go under the board during setup and you need a pointer. The pointer should be something sharp you can hold in the chuck like a bit.

bergerud
07-25-2015, 09:18 PM
The board in the ACB is held by side clamps (instead of roller pressure and sandpaper as with the UCB). The board setup and measurement process is more complicated. It, however, only has to be done once and then identical sized boards can be slid in and out at will without having to remeasure. The following is from procedures I am writing for the ACB.

Whether one is carving copies of a project, a double sided project, or a multi sided project, one has to first go through the board measuring procedure.



Adjust sides of the carrier (as with the UCB) to match the width of the board.
Adjust the rails in the ACB so that, instead of being 1/8” above, the board is slightly below the carrier sides. Use something like a box cutter blade on top of the board as a spacer to adjust the height. (The reason for the board being slightly below is so it is not pinched by the roller and can slide out.)
Decide where you want the touch point to be on the board and line it up with one of the touch holes on the carrier. Put a stop block in the rear left of the carrier side to set the board’s x position.
Lift the board up in the carrier and place the ends of 1/8” shims under the four corners of the board. Leave enough of the shims sticking out so you can pull them out later.
Tighten the side clamps. (If the clamps are deemed sufficient to hold the board in position under light roller pressure, the shims can now be removed.)
Place the board and carrier into the machine so the black marks closest to the desired touch point are under the board sensor.
Lower the head until the rollers just touch the board.
Load the project and answer NO to stay under the rollers.
Now lower the head slowly until the display changes from “Load Board” to “Press Enter”.
Press Enter and let the machine measure the board.
If the shims were not removed in step 5, now remove the shims from under the four corners of the board. (remove the front ones first and then the rear ones when the carrier moves backward to load the bit after you answer No to “Cut to Size” and Yes to “Center”.
When the machine asks to load the bit, simultaneously lower the head as you release the side clamps. The board will push down into the carrier and then be free to slide. Clamp the head down as usual.
Make sure the board is up against the stop block and retighten the side clamps. (This is the end of the measuring procedure.)
Load the bit, jog to touch, carve the project.
Once the project is finished, loosen the side clamps and slide the board out. Do not lift the head.
Slide in the next (or flipped) board up to the stop block and tighten the side clamps.
Load the project (same one again or another one) and answer the display questions as before. The board will not be measured again and the project will be carved in exactly the same position. Even the jog to touch will be remembered and automatically be repeated.
This may be repeated as many times as desired as long as the machine is not turned off, the head is not lifted between projects, or a project is not aborted. If any of these things occur, the measuring procedure has to be started all over again.

diane
07-25-2015, 10:17 PM
Will you have the ACB model with the pop up rails available to try for those of us who purchased the original "simple" model? One of the major issue with the original model for me was in getting that height set exactly right - without some additional help to hold everything in place. Would really appreciate trying the "pop up" rail model. Also the ability to remove the board and flip it will be a terrific improvement! You are truly a genius with this design!

bergerud
07-25-2015, 10:46 PM
The pop up rails are complicated and do not serve any really new purpose except convenience. All of the carriers have the same type of procedure to set the rail heights. The pop up rails will be no different. If you have trouble setting the rail heights, you could try flipping the whole thing over on a flat surface. With four shims under the sides, just push down on the rails and tighten them.

henry1
07-26-2015, 07:08 AM
Like berg said the 1/8 shim is the same as 12" square is exactly 1/8 thick

bergerud
07-27-2015, 02:27 PM
Still working on the pop up rails. Changed the design a little adding push buttons on the front and back. The buttons on the back pop them up. These are pressed before the carrier is put into the machine. The front buttons let them down. These are pressed with the carrier in the machine after the board has been measured.

henry1
07-27-2015, 07:02 PM
Still working on the pop up rails. Changed the design a little adding push buttons on the front and back. The buttons on the back pop them up. These are pressed before the carrier is put into the machine. The front buttons let them down. These are pressed with the carrier in the machine after the board has been measured.
Man that look very cool can't wait to try it if at all possible , that is a good ideal

bergerud
07-27-2015, 10:37 PM
I am not sure about these pop up rails yet. I think I may just include them as an option in the ACB project. I really would like to come up with a simpler design.

In any case, they are not needed to experiment with the modified UCB you have made. (The ACB is actually shorter and the rails I made would not even fit the UCB.)

What kind of double sided projects are you planning on making?

henry1
07-28-2015, 02:10 AM
the double side is my clock,, and spoon and fork I make for the highland games I am trying to save on the 8" add on or the old jig I made 3/4 thick with 4 " at each end but no worry I will keep on doing like I was before

CNC Carver
07-28-2015, 07:03 AM
Wonderful idea you are making this great!
Jeff

Still working on the pop up rails. Changed the design a little adding push buttons on the front and back. The buttons on the back pop them up. These are pressed before the carrier is put into the machine. The front buttons let them down. These are pressed with the carrier in the machine after the board has been measured.

bergerud
07-28-2015, 09:49 AM
Wonderful idea you are making this great!
Jeff

Thanks. I just wish it was all easier to make and use.



the double side is my clock,, and spoon and fork I make for the highland games I am trying to save on the 8" add on or the old jig I made 3/4 thick with 4 " at each end but no worry I will keep on doing like I was before

The clock does not require much two sided accuracy. As long as you drill the hole from the front. You can do this as a two mpc project on the UCB. The spoon and fork, on the other hand, could use the two sided accuracy of the ACB.

bergerud
07-28-2015, 10:37 AM
For something like your spoon fork, I would make a carrier board like this. (I do not know the size of the spoon fork so this would require resizing.)

These are the types I have been making and using. The clamps of the ACB do a double duty. They hold the carrier and hold the board in the carrier. (One does have to have a snug fit of the board in the carrier. I use my band saw to make it so.)

Here is a fail safe procedure to make a run of spoon forks. I call this the "sacrificial carrier" method. The carrier as well as the projects are all done at once.

First you make the carrier board in the ACB. You just choose center on board. Do not worry whether or not it is really centered, it does not matter. Wherever the machine decides the center is is now the center "by definition". When the carrier project is finished, slide out the carrier, clean it up, fit in the first project board, slide it back in to the stop block, clamp, and load the spoon fork back mpc. Just use center on board each time. When it is finished, slide out the carrier, flip the board in the carrier, slide back in, and load the spoon fork front mpc. Repeat as many times as you want to make a run of spoon forks.

As long as you do not lift the head, turn off the machine, or abort a project, the machine will be exactly calibrated to carve centered in the pocket. If you do loose the calibration, you can either start again by remaking the carrier or you can take your chances that the machine will measure the carrier the same as it did before. (The latter method can work but a pointer and a method to check the alignment may be more trouble than just to make a new carrier. MDF is cheap.)

sunmiztres
07-31-2015, 12:24 PM
I thought I had subscribed to this thread but I guess I didn't as a lot has been going on. I really like the pop up sides idea. I have been using the ACB with great success on 2 sided carves and repeated carves. Keep up the great work. Your a brilliant man.

bergerud
07-31-2015, 01:21 PM
Thanks. Good to hear that the side clamp method is working for you.

I am afraid, however, that I am confusing people as to what carrier is what and what changes have been made. Let me try and clear this up.

The UCB is the basic, simple carrier with sandpaper rails. It is meant only to hold single sided projects. When I get around to updating the project in the pattern depot, I will remove the front stop block and add the shim set we came up with.

The "modified" UCB that I made for the conference has the front stop block removed and has the ACB side clamping feature. Anyone who has purchased the UCB can also make it, but, it is not the ACB.

The ACB is different. The sides are higher and it is shorter than the UCB. Its use is for smaller, possibly thicker, double sided, multi sided, or repeated projects where accuracy is important. It is this carrier that I am working on. I am trying different methods and experimenting with things like the pop up rails.

Sliverfoot
10-04-2015, 10:52 PM
Dan I've purchased the UCB from the pattern store but since I'm interested in doing two sided carves I then downloaded the modified UCB and I'm gluing it up now. I was just wondering, when building the modified version do I follow the same directions as the standard UCB? For example do I use the same measurements for drilling the touch holes and making the black areas? Also I've noticed on some of the photos posted that there are touch holes in the small touch blocks. Lastly, when using the carrier I follow the directions printed in the UCB project description NOT what was posted earlier as Advanced Carrier, correct?
Thanks for offering this as a project for us to purchase and use, I followed your threads on carriers for quite a while and to be honest, got a little confused as to what was what. putting it up on the pattern store was a big help.

bergerud
10-05-2015, 12:17 AM
Dan I've purchased the UCB from the pattern store but since I'm interested in doing two sided carves I then downloaded the modified UCB and I'm gluing it up now. I was just wondering, when building the modified version do I follow the same directions as the standard UCB? For example do I use the same measurements for drilling the touch holes and making the black areas? Also I've noticed on some of the photos posted that there are touch holes in the small touch blocks. Lastly, when using the carrier I follow the directions printed in the UCB project description NOT what was posted earlier as Advanced Carrier, correct?


The modified USB is the same as the standard one except for the clamping holes and slots in the sides. (The stop blocks in the front were also eliminated.) Gluing together, drilling, and marking is the same. Depending on how it is used, the rails would be sandpaper up or sandpaper down. Sandpaper up for normal USB single sided carving (no need for side clamping). The rails would to be flipped over with sandpaper down for double sided carving.

Please do not hesitate to ask any questions. I was working on a set of instructions for different double sided carving methods for the ACB but have not gotten back to it.

Edit: the "touch holes" in the touch blocks are not holes. I put ebony plugs in them just for fun.

Sliverfoot
10-05-2015, 10:26 AM
Got it. Thanks for the explanation.

200k
10-07-2015, 05:22 PM
Making prototypes seems to me to be a use of the machine which should be more popular. I love it.

(There is no way anyone would guess what this is going to be!) First try on the table, second on the carrier. After a few more MDF carves, and I will carve it out of cast acyclic.

It's quite obvious that you are carving a prototype housing for a retroencabulator!
(ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k9x2gUHbQs )
200k

mtylerfl
10-07-2015, 07:03 PM
It's quite obvious that you are carving a prototype housing for a retroencabulator!
(ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k9x2gUHbQs )
200k

That is hilarious!

TerryT
10-07-2015, 09:45 PM
I think that company is in my stock portfolio. Maybe I will rethink that one!

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 07:37 PM
I was using my EBC for the first time and well, I must be doing something wrong. I put the board into the carrier, raised the board up an 1/8 of an inch, and put the carrier into the CW. I lined up the black marks (the center most ones) with the sensor, and lowered the carrier so that the rollers just touched. Followed the directions after it asked to load board and when it came time for the carrier to go through and measure the board, the carrier moved through and I got this message. "Measuring Board Clear Board Sensor". I hit enter again and got the same message. When I hit stop I got a "Edge detection failed".
What did I do wrong?

bergerud
10-11-2015, 07:58 PM
Did you lower the head just enough to change the display from "Load Board" to "Press Enter"? The idea is to lower the head just until the roller switches click.

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 08:28 PM
Yes, It went from load board to "enter?' I hit enter and the carrier moved through one way and displayed the "Measuring Board Clear board sensor"

bergerud
10-11-2015, 08:34 PM
Was the board under both rollers when you lowered the head?

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 08:35 PM
I have to say I'm not sure.

bergerud
10-11-2015, 08:38 PM
Also listen to hear both roller switches click. (Nearly at the same time is good.)

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 08:40 PM
I'll go out to the shop and try it again.

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 09:05 PM
It's carving!
Before trying it again I moved my project board more towards the front of the carrier, so that when lining up with the board sensor I was sure to have the board under both rollers. Don't know if that was what made the difference or not but that's all I changed and it's working now.

bergerud
10-11-2015, 09:09 PM
I think that was it. From the picture, it looks like the board was back too far.

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 09:21 PM
Great, lesson learned. Thank you.
One quick question though. Do I have my touch holes drilled in the wrong side?

bergerud
10-11-2015, 10:05 PM
Darn, you do. I did not even notice. If you carve a project more that 1/2" deep, it will go through the depth find and you will need the holes on the other side. No hole = z stall.

Sliverfoot
10-11-2015, 10:40 PM
Ok, yea I though so. I didn't catch my mistake until I was using it this first time. I'll try to VERY CAREFULLY drill holes into the other side and close the wrong ones up.

Sliverfoot
11-22-2015, 08:06 PM
Today I was going make an Oreo and I modified the pattern to include cutting them out. I loaded the board into the carrier and answering all of the prompts when it came time to begin the carve I received a message "ensure sliding plate set, retry/abort"
I checked the sliding plate and it was tight against the inside of the carrier side. I then aborted took the carrier out put it back and tried again with the same results. could this have anything to do with doing a cutout? I've used the carrier successfully on other projects and never ran into this?

bergerud
11-22-2015, 08:29 PM
Today I was going make an Oreo and I modified the pattern to include cutting them out. I loaded the board into the carrier and answering all of the prompts when it came time to begin the carve I received a message "ensure sliding plate set, retry/abort"
I checked the sliding plate and it was tight against the inside of the carrier side. I then aborted took the carrier out put it back and tried again with the same results. could this have anything to do with doing a cutout? I've used the carrier successfully on other projects and never ran into this?

This is the message you get if there is no touch block on the sliding plate side of the carrier. After touching the block on the keypad side, the machine expects to touch the sliding plate on the other side. My first guess to what went wrong is that you have the touch block on the left but not the one on the right.

(Note that the sliding plate message has nothing to do with the actual sliding plate when using the carrier. We are fooling the machine with the touch blocks.)

Sliverfoot
11-22-2015, 08:52 PM
Ok, if I understand correctly the bit needs to touch the touch block on the far side of the carrier.
When going through it's touches, the bit dipped into the hole on the far side then moved outside the carrier to touch the touch block. it went down but was about an 1/8 of an inch short of touching. Could it be that I have my board set in the carrier incorrectly? I just put a board in without adjusting the height because the last time I used it I was using the same thickness board. Maybe I need to check my set up?

bergerud
11-22-2015, 09:16 PM
Do you have the blocks on the right sides? The lower block goes on the keypad side and the higher block on the sliding plate side.

If your previous projects did not carve deeper than 1/2", the machine would not have gone through the board thickness - sliding plate touch procedure. That may be why this project is different.

Sliverfoot
11-22-2015, 09:36 PM
I had to run out to the shop and check. Yup, that's it. :oops: oops.
Don't know what to say other than I didn't read the instructions properly.
Thank you.

Dale
11-22-2015, 10:46 PM
Don't feel alone, I did the same thing.

Sliverfoot
04-13-2016, 10:14 AM
Dan
All of my previous times using the carrier were on a machine with rubber belts, I would like to start using another machine that I have that has the sand paper belts.
Are there any problems with doing that?