Something a bit different

[unitedcases]

So, as most can imagine 99% of what I do is military related. An occasional name sign or lithopane, but military is my thing. I have started to get more requests for memorials and the VFWs. So I think its time to up my game a little and could use some advice. So here is the layout, a set of Naval Parachutist Wings, in the center a 0.000 carve region raised to reflect the shape of a ribbon stackup, but flat, no lines or grooves, going to have someone paint them. I no paint!!! Then a little wording. So my dilemma, having done a few big tiled projects for outside I find that no matter how much outside finish I soak these things in they just dont seem to last, at least the way I want them to. So what I was thinking of doing was the HDU stuff. However I cant find how to buy it. I need about 9 inches by 30 inches. ISH... I was thinking of shooting them gold, outdoor gold paint??? Then painting the ribbons and some lettering with outdoor paint. I feel over my head. Any help or fingers pointed in the right direction would be appreciated. I have scratched my head too much over this one project already, and I am barely thru day 2 of it. Many Thanks!!!

[fwharris]

Have you searched out any big sign companies in your area? Guessing if you have any close they would sell you some or maybe point you in the right direction.

[unitedcases]

We have some vinyl shops. Nothing really like that close by.

[fwharris]

I just did a google search... https://www.google.com/search?q=hdu%2C+north+carolina&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

[unitedcases]

I couldn't get that link to work. Is hdu the same as polyethylene? I found some of that thru McMaster Carr.

[fwharris]

No it is not the same type of stuff. on my search I just typed in "hdu, north carolina".

[tjl232]

johnsonplastics.com

[unitedcases]

What about the pvc boards they sell at Lowes? I assume they will carve just as well and they should hold up to the elements?

[fwharris]

What about the pvc boards they sell at Lowes? I assume they will carve just as well and they should hold up to the elements?

Yes they do, carves great. I had to special order the 12" wide boards because the widest they stocked in the store was 6".

[unitedcases]

They have the 9.25 ones here. I think I will give them a whirl.

[unitedcases]

Yes they do, carves great. I had to special order the 12" wide boards because the widest they stocked in the store was 6".
How about outdoor gold paint? Do they make that?

[JDPratt]

So here is the layout, a set of Naval Parachutist Wings, in the center a 0.000 carve region raised to reflect the shape of a ribbon stackup, but flat, no lines or grooves, going to have someone paint them. I no paint!!! Then a little wording. So my dilemma, having done a few big tiled projects for outside I find that no matter how much outside finish I soak these things in they just dont seem to last, at least the way I want them to. So what I was thinking of doing was the HDU stuff. However I cant find how to buy it. I need about 9 inches by 30 inches. ISH... I was thinking of shooting them gold, outdoor gold paint??? Then painting the ribbons and some lettering with outdoor paint. I feel over my head. Any help or fingers pointed in the right direction would be appreciated. I have scratched my head too much over this one project already, and I am barely thru day 2 of it. Many Thanks!!!

As you can guess, 99.99% of what I do is military realted as well since I run a shop on a military installation. I do a lot of carvings of badges and unit crests from very small (2" square) to very big (5' square), but I am not sure I understand what you are carving. is this going outside? is the parachutist wings part of a larger sign or carved into the sign?

[Alan Malmstrom]

Here's a url for the kind of hdu that I got: http://signfoam.com/distributors.html

[unitedcases]

As you can guess, 99.99% of what I do is military realted as well since I run a shop on a military installation. I do a lot of carvings of badges and unit crests from very small (2" square) to very big (5' square), but I am not sure I understand what you are carving. is this going outside? is the parachutist wings part of a larger sign or carved into the sign?
Just the wings. Going to overlay some stuff on it. Just need to figure out the gold paint.

[dbemus]

The website Alan sighted has a section detailing finishing and painting signs with HDU. Click on the "Learning Center" top menu. Very helpful.

[unitedcases]

That is a great help. But is there gold outdoor paint available? I need something that isn't going to fade over time. I need this to last.

[Alan Malmstrom]

easybuild was talking about metal finishes a while ago in this thread: http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?25932-Brass-finish

[mtylerfl]

How about outdoor gold paint? Do they make that?

Many professional sign makers use the Modern Masters brand gold metallic paints as a substitute for real gold leaf. A friend of mine, Roger, is a professional sign maker in Canada and discovered what he feels yields the most realistic gold leaf appearance. He does real gold leaf for customers who want to pay the $$ for it, but for those who don't, he uses the following two products:

• Apply one or two coats of Modern Masters #ME660 Pharaoh's Gold (Semi-Opaque) metallic paint over a pre-primed surface
• Allow that to dry, then apply a coat of Modern Masters #ME194 Iridescent Gold (Sheer) metallic paint over the Pharaoh's Gold

I bought those paints myself, but have not used them yet. I went out to the workshop to get you the color models and names.

I've personally seen three signs Roger made...two of the signs used the Modern Masters paints in V-Carved lettering, and one he used real gold leaf in the lettering. From about two feet away, it was very difficult (pretty much impossible) to tell which were paint and which was the real gold. Only close inspection revealed the real gold one. The paint is not cheap. I paid $11.99 for each 6 oz. jar at a paint store in or near Columbia, NC when I attended a CNC conference a couple years ago.

[Capt Bruce]

Many professional sign makers use the Modern Masters brand gold metallic paints as a substitute for real gold leaf. A friend of mine, Roger, is a professional sign maker in Canada and discovered what he feels yields the most realistic gold leaf appearance. He does real gold leaf for customers who want to pay the $$ for it, but for those who don't, he uses the following two products:

• Apply one or two coats of Modern Masters #ME660 Pharaoh's Gold (Semi-Opaque) metallic paint over a pre-primed surface
• Allow that to dry, then apply a coat of Modern Masters #ME194 Iridescent Gold (Sheer) metallic paint over the Pharaoh's Gold

I bought those paints myself, but have not used them yet. I went out to the workshop to get you the color models and names.

I've personally seen three signs Roger made...two of the signs used the Modern Masters paints in V-Carved lettering, and one he used real gold leaf in the lettering. From about two feet away, it was very difficult (pretty much impossible) to tell which were paint and which was the real gold. Only close inspection revealed the real gold one. The paint is not cheap. I paid $11.99 for each 6 oz. jar at a paint store in or near Columbia, NC when I attended a CNC conference a couple years ago.

I wanted to follow up on this thread regarding outdoor gold paints. I took Michael's recommendation and ordered the Modern Masters Pharaoh's Gold and their Iridescent Gold to try on a set of 9 large outdoor signs I am creating. I also ordered a nautical gold enamel paint highly recommended from Jamestown Marine. These signs have 3" tall Arial text carved 1/8" deep

Having now tested both on signs the Modern Masters gets my vote for brilliant gold color and ease of application since it is a thick bodied acrylic paint with great coverage. Here is the first sign painted but not yet top coated with the sprayed urethane spar varnish (high UV resistance) that should do the overall weather sealing. It really is close to true gilding and I have not yet applied the Iridescent Gold final coating to the letters.

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The name Benton in the 1st photo has 2 coats, while House has only one coat. Being an acrylic it is dry in less than 1/2 hour for re-coating.
In the next two photos in bright sunshine you can see the metallic effect from different angles again very much like a real gilded surface. I am going to try this as well on some V carved Centerline lettering and I expect it will be spectactular.

Just a little report for The Good Of The Order.

[mtylerfl]

Thank you for the photos and follow-up, Bruce. The sign looks fantastic!

Is the wood Purple Heart or stained to look like it? (I have some Rust-Oleum Cabernet color that gives me a good purple heart apperance). Either way, the sign looks rich!

Thanks again.

[DocWheeler]

Gold leaf lasts and lasts!

[ktjwilliams]

I prefer real gold leaf,,, theres nutting like the real deal n it lasts ... I've also use imitation gold metal leaf ,,, looks good but will tarnish over time. If I'm painting gold I use " 1shot "professional sign painters paint. The one thing I found to be very important ... which ever you use ,, the surface under the gold must be primed or painted red.

[mtylerfl]

Well, doesn't everybody prefer the real thing? In lieu of real gold leaf, the Modern Masters works well and doesn't tarnish over time as readily as the big box store cheap metallic paints or the "new formula" OneShot paint the pros used to love.

I'm told the pros have abandoned OneShot due to the new formula not holding up as well as the original formulations did. I blame California for starting this reformulation of just about any coating that used to last a 'thousand' years. My friend Roger (the pro sign maker I mentioned earlier) says, "If it won't kill you, it's no good." There might be some truth to that!

I've done real gold leaf and you are right. Traditionally, you want to paint a base coat of red. However, that is not the case with the high-end metallic gold paints. A plain primer will be fine as long as the gold overcoat is heavy enough to cover it well. But, Roger primes his signs with a yellow/orange color mix (something that kind of matches the shade of gold paint he will use as the overcoat).

Real gold leaf is translucent and that's why we paint red under it, to enhance the gold tone. The gold paint doesn't work the quite the same way. Having said all that, you may recall my Christmas sleigh project I did a few years ago. The sled rungs are painted bright gold (krylon brand I think it was). Out of habit from doing real gold leaf, I painted a rust (reddish) colored primer as the undercoat, then applied the gold spray paint. Old habits are hard to break!

EDIT: Oh yes, don't even think about using the fake gold leaf. It tarnishes faster and worse than cheap gold spray paint!

[Capt Bruce]

Michael,

I agree that when the customer wants real gold leaf gilding then that is what we supply and they pay the cost for the real thing.

But when costs must be contained somewhat we go for a solution that provides the most realistic appearance possible.

72096 72094 72095

First:All nine signs painted but not yet top-coated. Second: The initial coat of high UV Resistant Urethane Spar Varnish sprayed over the stain and gold paint. Third: Two coats of Spar Varnish and ready for scuff sanding before the final smooth cover coat.

Again just for what it is worth as a test of the Modern Masters. I'll report over time how these hold up in the GA sunshine and weather, but I'm a fan now. Thanks again Michael.

[mtylerfl]

Wow! Those are beautiful and I can see you have been VERY busy.

(I hope my own Modern Masters paints don't dry up before I get a chance to use them!...I need to get busy too.)

[smurfjeep]

Is that plywood you are using on those signs?

[Capt Bruce]

Thanks Michael,

If they have been sealed tight they should be good. Hoping to get these all installed this coming week.

Smurfjeep,

Yes the signs are made with 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood cut into nine 9" x 45" sign blanks.

[Capt Bruce]

Hi Team,

Thanks for the messages I've received on my technique for the gold (paint) lettered signs. I thought I would wrap this report up with a few photos of the finished product installed south of Atlanta. Three sets of signs installed on each of three entrance road stonewalls to the Newnan Lakes community.

72282 72283 72284 72285 after opening a photo click it again for the full size view

The only difficult part of the installation proved to be getting the corroded steel screws out of the aluminum mounting brackets so I could mount these signs on top of each old sign.

[mikemi]

Looks very nice Capt Bruce. Are the Newnan Lakes letters made from wood or metal?

Mike

[Capt Bruce]

Hi Mike,
A little earlier in this thread I mentioned the method used. The letters are 3" high Arial text carved 1/8" deep into the face of the 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood signs. I used a 3/16" carving bit for the raster carved letters.
I stained the plywood with Minwax Red Mahogany and then painted two coats of Modern Masters Pharaoh's Gold acrylic paint into the letters. Final step was spraying three coats of Helmsman Spar Varnish on all surfaces.

This close up should make it clear. The first shows one coat of gold in Benton and then two coats on Benton and one on House. The build up is clear.

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Just in case you were instead asking about the freestanding Letters on the top of the wall, they are fabricated of Aluminum. Hope this helps Mike

[SharonB]

Your project came out great. Congratulations on getting them mounted.

[mikemi]

It was the freestanding letters on top that I was asking about. Thanks
Mike


Hi Mike,
A little earlier in this thread I mentioned the method used. The letters are 3" high Arial text carved 1/8" deep into the face of the 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood signs. I used a 3/16" carving bit for the raster carved letters.
I stained the plywood with Minwax Red Mahogany and then painted two coats of Modern Masters Pharaoh's Gold acrylic paint into the letters. Final step was spraying three coats of Helmsman Spar Varnish on all surfaces.

This close up should make it clear. The first shows one coat of gold in Benton and then two coats on Benton and one on House. The build up is clear.

72299 72311

Just in case you were instead asking about the freestanding Letters on the top of the wall, they are fabricated of Aluminum. Hope this helps Mike