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jackh
03-30-2014, 04:03 PM
I am a newby, just got my CW machine this month and already I am causing trouble. Like we all do(oh for sure)I am reading the S/W Manual. I am sure that the manual has been written for version 1.--- of the CW S/W. In attempting to follow the manual and execute the instructions, there appear to be differences in the manual descriptions and what appears on my screen and what I am able to do. This, as a newby is very confusing. In fact several things that I did according to the manual caused my project to delete, the program to shut down and when I double clicked the short cut restart the program the program would not respond. To get it back I had to restart my computer. Now I know many of you are saying it serves me right for reading the manual its just not done. Now I note that there is a manual for the A and B versions of the CW machine and a separate manual for the C machine. Might it be a smart move to have a separate manual for the 2.--- S/W? I realize that it would be a lot of work, especially for something that is read by very few(yes it is true). If this causes way too much work, would it be practical to issue a suplement to the version 1.--- S/W manual denoting the Version 2.--- S/W differences on a page by page basis? This would be of great help to we newby's who were never familiar with the version 1.--- S/W. What do you think LHR?

THE NEXT THING THAT REALLY HACKS ME OFF IS THAT WHEN I SPEND 30 MINUTES TYPING A NEW THREAD, I AM TOLD THAT AM NOT LOGGED IN AND CAN'T POST. GUR GUR

FWMiller
03-30-2014, 04:31 PM
Yes, writing manuals is a lot of work. Probably the reason that the ones that are available are riddled with errors and not bothered to be maintained. Your best resource is to search the forum to get answers to any questions you have. Or read the tips and tricks posted online.

lynnfrwd
03-30-2014, 04:52 PM
Not to mention, the original word document can't be found as that person that wrote it is long gone from the company and it has to be totally redone. I just don't have the time. I've worked on it here and there, but it's still a long way from being ready.

jackh
03-30-2014, 05:10 PM
I am really sorry to hear that. It is almost a crime to issue S/W this complex with inadequate/incomplete S/W documentation. I can't imagine "loosing" the version 1.--- S/W documentation. In fact I don't even understand, is it not the case that you have the manual for version 1.--- under "CarveWright Software Manual" under "Support"? At least I thought that is what I have been reading.

jackh
03-30-2014, 05:16 PM
Sorry "It is almost a crime to issue S/W this complex with inadequate/incomplete S/W" documentation.

unable to delete this

lynnfrwd
03-30-2014, 05:38 PM
The PDF is there, not original word file. The newer software features are covered with videos, not written documentation.

jakab
03-30-2014, 05:43 PM
The PDF is there, not original word file. The newer software features are covered with videos, not written documentation.

There are lots of PDF to Word converters out there. Some even free. See: https://www.pdftoword.com

lynnfrwd
03-30-2014, 05:48 PM
I'm using one, but they don't keep formatting or images.

cestout
03-30-2014, 06:41 PM
Find a StartU member near you to talk you thru the machine. Once you understand how it works it isn't that bad. If you can't find help near you, contact me and I will help you by email or phone. You can PM me or go thru my web site. I definitely do not want you to get frustrated. For others reading this, the advantage of going thru a StartU member is that you don't have to start cold.

fwharris
03-30-2014, 07:02 PM
Sorry "It is almost a crime to issue S/W this complex with inadequate/incomplete S/W" documentation.

unable to delete this

A pet peeve for a lot and for quite a while...

mazing
03-30-2014, 07:24 PM
Hi Connie, who writes the software? I have no idea how it works elsewhere and that I am not talking about the same exact thing, but when I am hired to write code or even customize a pre-existing plug-in for a website, it is usually my responsibility to also create and supply the client with the user documentation. The reason I ask is if the software was outsourced, shouldn't they have supplied the user manual also?

ronboley
03-30-2014, 07:57 PM
Jackh: Like you I've been very disappointed by the outdated documentation or lack there of. My solution was to print out the software manual that IS available and ALL of the Tips and Tricks published, put them in some organized fashion in binders and spend lots of time studying them. Also posted lots of questions on the forum and got lots of input and some answers from other users . Still very frustrating that after spending about two years working thru so many issues, there still is nothing else available, especially for a new user. I'm currently slogging thru a "jog to position: question but that's another thread. Even though other users have apparently spent a huge amount of time and effort in the past to document this one question, there is still no clear document or source from the manufacturer that one could go to and get the answers one needs to use the machine.

Like many other products on the market CW's documentation of their product and how to use it is way below the standard of the product itself. Maybe all manuals are written "in America by expert".

In the same vein...AutoCAD is a billion dollar level company and their software comes with almost no documentation as well...but it is for a "professional" user that is supposed to be educated and trained specifically for that software....I use AutoCAD for Dummies...

SteveNelson46
03-30-2014, 08:36 PM
Jackh: Like you I've been very disappointed by the outdated documentation or lack there of. My solution was to print out the software manual that IS available and ALL of the Tips and Tricks published, put them in some organized fashion in binders and spend lots of time studying them. Also posted lots of questions on the forum and got lots of input and some answers from other users . Still very frustrating that after spending about two years working thru so many issues, there still is nothing else available, especially for a new user. I'm currently slogging thru a "jog to position: question but that's another thread. Even though other users have apparently spent a huge amount of time and effort in the past to document this one question, there is still no clear document or source from the manufacturer that one could go to and get the answers one needs to use the machine.

Like many other products on the market CW's documentation of their product and how to use it is way below the standard of the product itself. Maybe all manuals are written "in America by expert".

In the same vein...AutoCAD is a billion dollar level company and their software comes with almost no documentation as well...but it is for a "professional" user that is supposed to be educated and trained specifically for that software....I use AutoCAD for Dummies...

At least you can buy 3rd party books.

SteveNelson46
03-30-2014, 08:38 PM
Sorry "It is almost a crime to issue S/W this complex with inadequate/incomplete S/W" documentation.

unable to delete this

I agree!!!

lynnfrwd
03-30-2014, 08:39 PM
We write the software in-house.

Besides the START U members as suggested, there are also lots of tools to learn the software including Step-by-step tutorials, videos, AskBud, tips and tricks. Look under Support > Getting Started.

SteveNelson46
03-30-2014, 08:41 PM
Connie,

It's a shame that responsibility falls in your lap. I don't know how you find the time to do the things already do.

Oak Tech
03-30-2014, 08:54 PM
Sorry but there is no excuse for not having up to date manuals on all software products and releases. I was a professional programmer before I retired and had spent untold hours writing documentation for the programs that I wrote. I really can't believe that updated manuals are not provided. It is a real pain in the butt, however it is a necessary evil. Management is responsible for this.

Bob

lynnfrwd
03-30-2014, 09:38 PM
Like I said, the new features are covered by videos, which many people (not all), may prefer. Some people have trouble reading and comprehending the information. Some ppl learn by doing, that is why we came up with the step-by-step tutorials. I realize some ppl prefer written, but right now, that is not available beyond the basic.

aokweld101
03-31-2014, 08:16 AM
I bought my machine in Sept. 2012, I've had no experience in a CNC machine just did know something about the x,y,z and that was from being a welder I was always next to a machine shop, I was impressed when the add for carvewright said, "JUST PUSH AND CARVE" I had no concept of the learning curve it would take to carve a project, I went though a lot of wood and I mean a lot of wood..... as I have learned to take care of the machine, I had to learn the programs.. after this amount of time and reading the tutorials and a lot of help here on the forum....In the time of distress.... I feel confident enough do what I want to do with the machine and programs if I'm doing something that I don't know, I ask or look at one of the tutorials referring to what needs to be done. This forum has been a lifeline and a lot of great people. I agree that it needs to be done...The magic wand is still eludeing me but I'll get it...

mazing
03-31-2014, 08:37 AM
Actually, I am a visual learner and very much appreciate and prefer video tutorials. While earning my degree, I had used video tutorials on a great deal of subjects and find that they can be a great source of learning. I have also taken a good amount of CBT (computer based training) development courses during my studies. In many cases, seeing something done in action accomplishes just what cannot not easily and clearly be conveyed in writing--even with static pictures and illustrations. When learning some new software or even attempting to acquire further insight on what I use day-to-day, I always search out videos before any written materials.

Having said that, some video tutorials are better than others. Not only in the actual video production and editing but in content and approach. I have not gotten to any of LHR's software tutorials as of yet but have found their maintenance videos extremely helpful. So although I cannot comment on their software tutorials, I do have some insight on tutorials in general.

I have noticed some of the major issues that make some of the "better ones" better and the short comings of the "not so good" ones. I feel that a big problem with some video tutorials is that usually for time considerations, they do not cover "everything" as is expected in a comprehensive written manual--often even when a video tutorial is on a singular topic or feature. Also, unless the tutorial is split up into small chunks either being individual videos or titled sections (with time stamps) for which an index is supplied, it is too time consuming to find specific information you may be looking for. But when done well, indexed properly, and with searchable hyperlinks that jump directly to a section, finding information in a video can be a breeze. I am talking not just a listing of the major titles, but a break down of the finer information within. Again, I don't know if that is something LHR utilizes with their software tutorials, but if it is not, it is something I would highly suggest.

jackh
03-31-2014, 09:18 AM
Connie, please do not take my comments personally, from what little I have seen, you are a hard worker who spends much more than reasonable time dedicated to the CW program. I see your threads all over the forum, even on weekends. In addition you have a full time job.

Neither do I want to be thought of as a complaining flake on this forum, so I offer some background. My degrees are a major in EE and a minor in applied math. I spent 25 years with a company that provided consultants to the U.S. Air Forces Space Systems Division space programs. About the time you were born I was writing guidance equations that placed the Mercury and Gemini astronauts into precision earth orbits. If we had handled our S/W development the way LHR does theirs, we might never have gotten the astronauts into orbit or worse yet lost some of them and never known why. Yes, I know this is not a life or death situation BUT doesn't LHR have a fiduciary responsibility to its customers? Please entertain my observations:
1. The "NASA engineers" that developed the CW system were H/W engineers and knew little about professional S/W development. There is a users manual for the CW A and B hardware and a users manual for the C hardware. There are also numerous H/W use videos.
2. There is no usable/modifiable S/W documentation/manual for the designer S/W either version 1.--- or 2.---.
3. The whole of the 2.--- S/W knowledge/use is given in a 13:26 minute video.
4. LHR does not maintain a S/W library, strictly control the S/W versions, or develop the CW S/W in a generally accepted professional manner.
5. Someone at LHR permitted the LHR employee that generated the Designer S/W manual for version 1.--- S/W to leave the company without assuring that the designer S/W and documentation were secure in a controlled environment, or library.
6. Connie, you state "We write the S?W in house". I assume that means all the S/W. Are there any controls and/or complete documentation on any of the S/W?

I do not intend criticism of LHR or it's hardworking employees, but to point out areas where small changes could make vast improvements in a product that we all respect and enjoy.

RMarkey
03-31-2014, 10:41 AM
I think one reason we pass the buck on our docs is that at one point, we spent hundreds of hours creating it only to find out nobody was reading it. We would get the same questions called into our tech support lines over and over again -- all of which was answered in the documentation.

So the forum was started, and other users could help answer repetitive questions, in a friendlier language. The "tips and tricks" was created, as real-world examples were much better than technical explanations. AskBud's videos led to our creating more instructional videos.

Hopefully a picture is worth a thousand words.

CW-HAL9000
03-31-2014, 12:30 PM
I still think some documentation is needed. I want to note that tips and tricks has also not been updated or added to in some time. I understand that people will often ask questions that are located in the documentation just as people will often come on the forum and ask questions that if they did a simple search they would find the question has been asked and answered many times. That does not relive a company of the responsibility to put out basic information on the use of the products it sells. You can not assume the level of competence of your purchaser especially when the product is sold as a hobby machine for the novice.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 12:44 PM
I tend to learn the software by using the software and when stuck look at the help files. I talked Chris a long time ago and he said documentation can take a PHD to compile.

Michel Taylor has done a excellent job on the tips and tricks with the exception of a few things I tend do different like board layout. The best way to learn is to visualize what you what to make then try it over and over until your happy, this also means using the machine and testing over and over until your on top of the grade.

jackh
03-31-2014, 12:59 PM
Mr. Metallus, of course your comments are true. The only time most of us read documentation is when we get stuck and no one is there to provide answers. Documentation is a dirty word to a S/W developer to be shunned at all costs. Been there done it myself. That is when the management must stand firm.

However your argument does get rather thin when one realizes that you have documented user manuals for the A & B machines and another documented user manual for the C machine as well as providing action videos. I bet that as many people were/are not reading the H/W manuals as would not be reading the S/W manuals if they existed and that there as many calls and wasted hours explaining the H/W workings as there are explaining the S/W workings. HOWEVER that fact did not stop you from documenting and providing user manuals for the H/W.

lynnfrwd
03-31-2014, 01:00 PM
Changing the medium of the documentation from written to visual does not mean a company has relieved themselves from their responsibility. Personally, I don't feel there is a lack of documentation. I almost think the amount is overwhelming.

A manual might be fine for defining features, but it does not show you how to combine them to create a project, as many are. That is why there are Step-by-Step tutorials that take you through a project build. I do, also, agree with LG. Start playing with the software. Click on this button or that button to see what it does. It doesn't mean you have to carve it.

Anyone wanting to contribute a new Tips & Tricks (written or video format), like others have done, are welcomed to send them. I may have a template somewhere or at least the logos for you to use.

FYI - I have added descriptions to several of ASKBUD's videos. Still working on it, as he did a lot of them.

One of my customer service techs is now working on some written documentation for Designer 2.00+. It will not be a comprehensive look, but a general description of the new features.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 01:16 PM
However your argument does get rather thin when one realizes that you have documented user manuals for the A & B machines and another documented user manual for the C machine as well as providing action videos.

Not understanding this, the machines are overall same.


I bet that as many people were/are not reading the H/W manuals as would not be reading the S/W manuals if they existed

Again I not sure what your saying the software manuals are available in a few forms. have you updated to 2.005? do you have all the plugins? Conform, STL,DXF?

I think pointing out hiccups is importing but I not getting the overall issue you having especially with someone with your background in Computer science.

jackh
03-31-2014, 01:17 PM
WOW! that certainly was not our approach when putting men in space. I know this is not the same, but your approach can be a huge wast of my time and resources. In fact it is a huge waste of time and resources of all those that use the CW machine.

As far as Chris's comment is concerned, are PhD's writing the H/W documentation? If so then they are on staff and can be made available to document a S/W user manual. When developing S/W the programer has many problems to solve and in general only he/she knows the path that was taken. After the fact if the path is not documented the programer can forget, leave the company(as in this case), be transferred, etc. and the chosen solution lost until; an unsuspecting user runs into it, ruins the project and has to start over.

jackh
03-31-2014, 01:24 PM
"One of my customer service techs is now working on some written documentation for Designer 2.00+. It will not be a comprehensive look, but a general description of the new features".

Connie, that makes me very happy! I believe it is a step in the right direction. Please continue in this path.

RMarkey
03-31-2014, 01:27 PM
Documentation is a dirty word to a S/W developer to be shunned at all costs

I've quit jobs because of lack of documentation. Most of mine is internal. I still release individual docs on specific functionality. I choose to take the time to do it.

They are scattered throughout the website. Some are hardware manuals, some tutorials, calibration, troubleshooting, error messages, etc. I only document the firmware, although I manage about 15 different projects not seen here in the forum.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 01:28 PM
WOW! that certainly was not our approach when putting men in space.
Jack I been in the LHR's owners office and i never seen so many awards issued from NASA to one person in my life. Truly impressive. Chris needs a bigger office just to place all of his bling. I kid you not.

With respect I think your eclipsing something that possibly your don't have a clue about when talking about LHR and Space.

lynnfrwd
03-31-2014, 01:31 PM
WOW! that certainly was not our approach when putting men in space. I know this is not the same, but your approach can be a huge wast of my time and resources. In fact it is a huge waste of time and resources of all those that use the CW machine.

Who are you talking to?



As far as Chris's comment is concerned, are PhD's writing the H/W documentation? If so then they are on staff and can be made available to document a S/W user manual. When developing S/W the programer has many problems to solve and in general only he/she knows the path that was taken. After the fact if the path is not documented the programer can forget, leave the company(as in this case), be transferred, etc. and the chosen solution lost until; an unsuspecting user runs into it, ruins the project and has to start over.

You are making assumptions here.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 01:32 PM
As far as Chris's comment is concerned, are PhD's writing the H/W documentation?

Your going to have to read my post. I said years ago.
Do you have a direct question you failed to answer any of mine. :)

lynnfrwd
03-31-2014, 01:55 PM
This thread has gone into outer space.

Anyone is welcome to send us their resume.

jackh
03-31-2014, 02:00 PM
Not understanding this, the machines are overall same.



Again I not sure what your saying the software manuals are available in a few forms. have you updated to 2.005? do you have all the plugins? Conform, STL,DXF?

I think pointing out hiccups is importing but I not getting the overall issue you having especially with someone with your background in Computer science.

I apologize, I had no intent to be subtle or obtuse. My first comment was intended to point out the fact that much time has been spent on H/W documentation and little time spent on S/W documentation. As a matter of fact the H/W is useless without the S/W to drive it.

My second comment points out that people will call in with H/W questions also and yet time was spent to document the H/W. So it is a weak argument to say that because people call with S/W questions it is a wast of time documenting the S/W.

Yes, I have updated to 2.005 and I do have 6 of the 9 S/W packages. I also have the rotary jig. As an aside and because you ask if I have upgraded to 2.005, there is no 2.005 S/W documentation.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:06 PM
Most of the 3D software like Maya or Softimage have third party books out on how to use the software " I co authored one on 3D studio back in the 80's you can buy for 2 bucks today.

Linda.com has videos by the same people. I not sure if it warrants this but you could potently make some money... :)

CW-HAL9000
03-31-2014, 02:11 PM
Anyone wanting to contribute a new Tips & Tricks (written or video format), like others have done, are welcomed to send them. I may have a template somewhere or at least the logos for you to use.

It just seems odd that LHR relys so much on its customers to sell its product (StartU members), Show its product (woodworking shows are staffed by volunteer customers), Answer questions for its customers (the forum), supply documentation (create tips and tricks newsletters), teach customers (ask bud videos and the forum). And then when someone questions any of this the company reaction is defensive and sometimes threatening. I think its totally valid for customers to ask for more documentation and help on a machine that is clearly sold as an easy to use hobby machine.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
I have upgraded to 2.005, there is no 2.005 S/W documentation.

I think this is good to point out. I need to look at the help files to see how far back they go.

In the mean time most of the guys and girls here are able to help Like Dan, MT, Connie, Floyed and the rest of us. Even Mr.Metallus as long as you don't keep him away from the cool stuff he working on.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:26 PM
and sometimes threatening.

I never seen this in the 7 years i been here so your choosing your words i guess. I have seen Trolls tho and that would require a little straight talk understandably.

CW-HAL9000
03-31-2014, 02:32 PM
I never seen this in the 7 years i been here so your choosing your words i guess. I have seen Trolls tho and that would require a little straight talk understandably.

Examples exist in forum posts but I don't want to post them as this usually causes posts to get deleted and warnings issued (the threatening is usually not public) . I also am going to discontinue this line of posts as I do not want to get off the topic of the fact that I do agree that more documentation is needed and a better FAQ for both machines and software. I will leave it at that.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:33 PM
It just seems odd that LHR relys so much on its customers to sell its product

This is a good thing it's called customer referrals, I use them all the time to sell my wares I feel lucky to be able to do so.

jackh
03-31-2014, 02:34 PM
This thread has gone into outer space.

Anyone is welcome to send us their resume.

Yes, it has, Connie and in my opionion justly so. It is an important subject. It appears that you have taken the ball and S/W documentation is being considered.

You won't hear anymore from me on the subject. My job here is done.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:35 PM
I do agree that more documentation is needed

Yes the point is LHR does have documentation and it sound like more is one the way for you.

liquidguitars
03-31-2014, 02:48 PM
Some bad language at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7u1VBhWCE

lone star
04-08-2014, 09:55 PM
[QUOTE=liquidguitars;225452]Some bad language at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7u1VBhWCE[/QUOTE

Funny video. That being said- I would love a software manual. I prefer this way of learning. It's so much easier to "rewind" a written document for me than the video. I love to highlight important information that I will need again- so easy. I certainly appreciate the help here but would appreciate an organized written manual even more. Just my opinion, for what it is worth. No criticism of anyone intended.