Y Gear Box Modification

[bergerud]

I have been thinking about the Y gear box bearing maintenance problem for quite some time. Take a look at the mpc for the basic idea that I have for adding a bearing to the front by the belt. It will require turning a spot for the bearing on the gear and grinding the CW casing a little for clearance. I could not think of an easier way. The dimensions of the mpc are not yet tuned. It is just at the initial concept stage. I would make it out of cast acrylic. What do you think?

[fwharris]

Very possible I guess. One thing I've found that not over tightening the Y belt plays a big part in the life of the bearings and gear shaft.

[henry1]

I have been thinking about the Y gear box bearing maintenance problem for quite some time. Take a look at the mpc for the basic idea that I have for adding a bearing to the front by the belt. It will require turning a spot for the bearing on the gear and grinding the CW casing a little for clearance. I could not think of an easier way. The dimensions of the mpc are not yet tuned. It is just at the initial concept stage. I would make it out of cast acrylic. What do you think?

I am with you on that one berg I will be following you on that one for sure

[DocWheeler]

Dan, I think that it is a good idea, however, I think that LHR should make those mods to their product.
Possibly selling the parts with instructions, both for a small fee, to address a weakness in their design.

[henry1]

I don't agree there , they've know about it for a while and would off made a mode by now

[bergerud]

Dan, I think that it is a good idea, however, I think that LHR should make those mods to their product.
Possibly selling the parts with instructions, both for a small fee to address a weakness in their design.

That would, of course, be nice. With a new gear design and a smaller bearing, the mod would fit in the machine without having to grind out some clearance. It could also then work for the z gear box. I always hope that is kind of effort will help inspire LHR to make mods.

For those who use the machine for other than "hobby" use. This type of mod may be worth the trouble.

Floyd, I would like to have my belt tighter. I have had some y slips and am tired of trying to keep the right balance between too tight or not tight enough. The belt also pulls the gear into the motor gear and makes the gear adjustment difficult. This mod will make those adjustments independent and stable.

[fwharris]

Dan,

I'm not saying there shouldn't possibly be some improvements to the Y gear box but more of a statement that over tightening the Y belt does/will lead to early failure of the bearings and shaft.

[bergerud]

Dan,

I'm not saying there shouldn't possibly be some improvements to the Y gear box but more of a statement that over tightening the Y belt does/will lead to early failure of the bearings and shaft.

I hear you. But do you mean the tensioning spring is too strong and you ease off the belt a little? I have had to add a little tension to my belt to stop the slipping at the bit plate. Now with the deep carving bits, the poor y bearings are really going to get a beating. It is clearly a weak point. I think making a simple cover to hold a bearing can make it a lifelong part. The y and bearings should last as long as the z gears and bearings last.

[fwharris]

I hear you. But do you mean the tensioning spring is too strong and you ease off the belt a little? I have had to add a little tension to my belt to stop the slipping at the bit plate. Now with the deep carving bits, the poor y bearings are really going to get a beating. It is clearly a weak point. I think making a simple cover to hold a bearing can make it a lifelong part. The y and bearings should last as long as the z gears and bearings last.

Since the last conference I've been following Chris Rawl's advice to loosen the screw, move the truck back and forth and then just re tighten the screw. Before that I would add more tension to the belt, probably way more than what was needed. I did one bearing change and when I pressed the bearings out they fell apart.

With doing aggressive/deep carves that does put a lot of tension/force on the Y axis and having a bearing out closer to the pulley would help with reducing the tension on the bearing inside the gear box.

[CW-HAL9000]

Dan, I think that it is a good idea, however, I think that LHR should make those mods to their product.
Possibly selling the parts with instructions, both for a small fee to address a weakness in their design.

The only problem with that is that a small fee to them is $200. Everything is priced at $200.

[bergerud]

I have the main parts together for the Y gearbox cover and bearings. I just have to put it together and grind out the CW so the part of the cover with the bearings can fit through. This is not the best solution since it requires modifying the CW casting and because it requires a lathe to turn the gear for the bearings. I also turned the part of the cover which protrudes through the casting. I think this will work for me and will be the end of Y bearing problems.

[unitedcases]

As usual out of the park Dan.

[CW-HAL9000]

What a great mind you have. This is a great modification. I only have a Jet wood lathe but I would think if I took it slow and light on the cutting it should work. I also have an older gear with a worn out shaft that I could use and not be totally distressed if I messed it up. Is the tilt feature a absolute requirement? I only have basic designer. If it is perhaps a ptn might work? Can you also give some details on the bearings and where you got them. Congratulations on a genius design. I see this as a feature in version D of a future carvewright design. You should file the patent and get your part of the future $200 upgrade fee. LOL.

[henry1]

I have the main parts together for the Y gearbox cover and bearings. I just have to put it together and grind out the CW so the part of the cover with the bearings can fit through. This is not the best solution since it requires modifying the CW casting and because it requires a lathe to turn the gear for the bearings. I also turned the part of the cover which protrudes through the casting. I think this will work for me and will be the end of Y bearing problems.

I don't have the tilt feature would you post the one I can download or what software do you need to do this,, the lath I have ,, and what bearing you used , would they be the same one for the dust collecting or send me an email

[bergerud]

Actually they are the same bearings as in the dust shoe (R1212 1/2"X3/4"X5/32"). Sorry about the tilt. I can make that a pattern. But hold on. This is the first attempt. The mpc could use some tweaking and I have not made it fit in the machine yet. Let me test it first!

[henry1]

Actually they are the same bearings as in the dust shoe (R1212 1/2"X3/4"X5/32"). Sorry about the tilt. I can make that a pattern. But hold on. This is the first attempt. The mpc could use some tweaking and I have not made it fit in the machine yet. Let me test it first!

That ok sounds like a plan ,, just let me know when you are finish and thx for the help

[CNC Carver]

Great work Dan. That should solve the Y bearing problem for good.

[chief2007]

Dan,

You never cease to amaze me. LHR should be hiring you for design improvements.

Now can you find a way to change the the cut motor to a brushless design?

[bergerud]

Now can you find a way to change the the cut motor to a brushless design?

Wouldn't that be nice. Quiet and maintenance free. My wife would buy in to that!

(I wish LHR would work some more on hardware improvements instead of just software improvements.)

[liquidguitars]

Wow that's cool beans.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Very Nice.... AL

[bergerud]

As usual, when I try to design something, I change my mind half way through. The gear box cover with the bearings on the front of the gear is not such a good solution. It requires turning the gear and grinding out the machine casing. I was ready to do it for my machine but that does not help many others.

The real problem with the Y gear box is that the bearings are too small. (I am amazed at how long they do last being so small.) The proper way to fix the problem is to machine a larger recess for a bigger bearing right behind the gear. Unfortunately, this is not possible to do without adding more metal to the casting. If you tried to machine a bigger bearing recess, you would go right through the casting. LHR should have the manufacturer add material to the rear of the casting and bore a bigger bearing recess for a bigger bearing.

So, my next idea is to make the whole gear box out of cast acrylic. This way, the gear and the machine need not be altered. No lathe or grinding required. I think I can design it so that all of the important milling is done from one side for accuracy. It will use different bearings. The back bearing cannot be made bigger since it is up against the motor. The back bearing will still be a 5X11X5 but with a flange (F685). (The flange is so the hole can be milled from the other side with everything else.) The front bearing will be bigger: 5X14X5 (605). I am hoping that a bigger bearing behind the gear is all that is required to solve the problem.

I will start milling some prototypes but I will have to wait for ordered bearings before I can really test it.

[Capt Bruce]

In a word Dan, WOW! Your mind amazes me weekly and we are in your debt again for leading the way on this improvement. Waiting anxiously to see the next step. Thanks as always

[Digitalwoodshop]

I am impressed....

Another thought I had was to drill out the mechanical stop in the middle of the frame that would let you install a long roller bearing. You would then need to drill and tap the frame in say 3 places for small set screws.... That would hold the bearing in place.

I started searching for such a bearing but could not find it.

AL

[bergerud]

The first acrylic carve. It is getting close. I went for an even bigger bearing. 5X16X5 (625) The mpc is just to look at. It still has 3d stuff in it.

[Digitalwoodshop]

WOW... Impressive....

AL

[bergerud]

I also thought about drilling out the hole so it could hold three bearings. Then I thought the middle bearing would do nothing until the one beside it went. Then it would have more of a load than the one that just went because of more leverage on it. Have you seen (I know you have!) how small the balls are in these 685 bearings? I am amazed they last at all. I am hoping that the 685 in the back will be ok if the front bearing is bigger. I assume that the front bearing, which is under more than twice the load as the back bearing, is the one which always goes first. There is no room for a bigger back bearing so this is the best that I can do using the original gear parts.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I am thinking Roller Bearings as in no balls but pin rollers....

AL

[bergerud]

I have searched and searched for the right size needle bearings. The only ones I found which would fit would have to roll on the shaft itself. There does not seem to be enough room for outer casing, needles, and an inner insert. I am not sure the shaft is hard enough to handle it. I have to agree, needle bearings are the right bearing for this application, they should have been in the original design. If I was going to start from scratch, I think I would have a fixed shaft and put needle bearings in the gear body.

[CNC Carver]

Another great idea.

[henry1]

The first acrylic carve. It is getting close. I went for an even bigger bearing. 5X16X5 (625) The mpc is just to look at. It still has 3d stuff in it.

I can't carve it your using advance 3D but nice can't wait to try it guest gona have to buy the 3D

[bergerud]

I will convert the 3d to patterns when I feel like it is done. I only posted it so you could have a look.

To carve it, you will need some 3/4" cast acrylic. Also you will need a 5X11X5 flanged bearing (F685) and a standard 5X16X5 (625). I do not think the type of seals matters. I have yet not been able to find a reasonable American source for the F685. (The reason for the flanged bearing is so that both bearing holes can be milled from the same side. The rear bearing needs the flange to hold the shaft and bearings from pulling out through the front.)

[henry1]

I will convert the 3d to patterns when I feel like it is done. I only posted it so you could have a look.

To carve it, you will need some 3/4" cast acrylic. Also you will need a 5X11X5 flanged bearing (F685) and a standard 5X16X5 (625). I do not think the type of seals matters. I have yet not been able to find a reasonable American source for the F685. (The reason for the flanged bearing is so that both bearing holes can be milled from the same side. The rear bearing needs the flange to hold the shaft and bearings from pulling out through the front.)

The bearing we got from http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/318/12-x-34-Rubber-R1212-2RS-bearings.html doesn't have these bearing 5X16X5 (625). or F685

[bergerud]

The bearing we got from http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/318/12-x-34-Rubber-R1212-2RS-bearings.html doesn't have these bearing 5X16X5 (625). or F685

They have the 625 but, you are right, they do not have the F685. VBX does but they are ridiculously expensive.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit13945

[henry1]

They have the 625 but, you are right, they do not have the F685. VBX does but they are ridiculously expensive.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit13945

Hear ya but in the long run it will pay off , if its going to save the Y truck I will pay it,, what you call expensive

[bergerud]

Henry, I have some ordered some flange bearings but they may take awhile. I hope to finish tweaking the gear box mpc this weekend.

[henry1]

Henry, I have some ordered some flange bearings but they may take awhile. I hope to finish tweaking the gear box mpc this weekend.
Thx berg man if this work that would be a great improvement now let hope we just can buy just the gear

[bergerud]

Thx berg man if this work that would be a great improvement now let hope we just can buy just the gear

Yes, Henry, that is an interesting point. If we cannot buy the gear, it will be difficult to use the new gear box. One could switch to it when their bearings go. But, if they wait too long and ruin the gear, they may be out of luck.

Any news on whether we will be able to just buy the gear again Connie??

[henry1]

Yes, Henry, that is an interesting point. If we cannot buy the gear, it will be difficult to use the new gear box. One could switch to it when their bearings go. But, if they wait too long and ruin the gear, they may be out of luck.

Any news on whether we will be able to just buy the gear again Connie??
Just talked to LHR I guest just the gears are on back order good sign and were did you get the flange bearing I will order some for me

[bergerud]

These are the ones I have coming:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/390574896468?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

[henry1]

These are the ones I have coming:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/390574896468?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Just ordered some thank you they will go to NY P,O box I might get them faster let hope

[lynnfrwd]

We received a shipment of parts on Monday. The Y/Z Drive Gear/Pulley Combination Assembly part A2073 is now available in the store.

[bergerud]

Now there is some good news.

(product link removed)

[lynnfrwd]

(I wish LHR would work some more on hardware improvements instead of just software improvements.)

There are several hardware improvements in the works and some almost ready to announce. It just takes us a little bit longer to actually produce them.

[henry1]

Now there is some good news.

(product link removed)
good news is right just ordered 5 of them Now I can fix 2 machine now

[lynnfrwd]

good news is right just ordered 5 of them Now I can fix 2 machine now

LOL, massive run on y gear/pulley assemblies...good thing we got them in stock.

[henry1]

LOL, massive run on y gear/pulley assemblies...good thing we got them in stock.
You wouldn't believe how that help thx Connie

[ktjwilliams]

These seem a bit pricey but ....
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/CeramicBallBearings/Kit8250
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/CeramicBallBearings/Kit8427

[ktjwilliams]

Or
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit8525
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit9045
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7470
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit9390

[cestout]

I got the bearings for $1 each a while back. Got the link here on the forum. I hope I saved the link, going to need some soon.
Clint

[bergerud]

Here is the Y gear box. All the 3d stuff is converted to patterns and it is in 1.187. I made it from a 3" X 4" X 3/4" thick piece of cast acrylic. It could be made form other material like phenolic. Most of the important milling is done from the front side for accuracy. The motor mounting hole is done from the back side and may vary a little depending on how the sides line up. The mounting has a little adjustment built in so, the line up only has to be close. The bearing holes as milled on my machine give a nice press fit. If your cutting bit wobbles, the holes may be made larger. I only converted the 3d stuff to patterns. The tilt and the trusses. Everything else can be tweaked if you need. Do some test carves out of MDF or wood first. This is another untested Bergerud project with no guarantees! I only ask that you post your results.

I carved it using a carrier frame with a pocket right through. Carrier is cut with place on center onto a piece of MDF slightly larger than 5X12.

I press fit 3X4 the piece. Double sided carve placed on center. Flip the whole carrier. Requires only the 1/16 carving bit and the 1/8 cutting bit.

You will need two bearings: 5X16X5 (625) and a special flanged 5X11X5 (F685). Also, you might want to find some screws for the motor that are just a little longer.

[ktjwilliams]

Dan ,,, Neither file would open for me ... Forget it dan Got it !!!!

[unitedcases]

Here is the Y gear box. All the 3d stuff is converted to patterns and it is in 1.187. I made it from a 3" X 4" X 3/4" thick piece of cast acrylic. It could be made form other material like phenolic. Most of the important milling is done from the front side for accuracy. The motor mounting hole is done from the back side and may vary a little depending on how the sides line up. The mounting has a little adjustment built in so, the line up only has to be close. The bearing holes as milled on my machine give a nice press fit. If your cutting bit wobbles, the holes may be made larger. I only converted the 3d stuff to patterns. The tilt and the trusses. Everything else can be tweaked if you need. Do some test carves out of MDF or wood first. This is another untested Bergerud project with no guarantees! I only ask that you post your results.

I carved it using a carrier frame with a pocket right through. Carrier is cut with place on center onto a piece of MDF slightly larger than 5X12.

I press fit 3X4 the piece. Double sided carve placed on center. Flip the whole carrier. Requires only the 1/16 carving bit and the 1/8 cutting bit.

You will need two bearings: 5X16X5 (625) and a special flanged 5X11X5 (F685). Also, you might want to find some screws for the motor that are just a little longer.

The bearing boss on the reverse side has zero depth, is that correct?

[bergerud]

The bearing boss on the reverse side has zero depth, is that correct?

Yes, that is right. Gets it up to the surface.

[unitedcases]

Just checking. Going over the files now. Just happen to have a machine not doing anything tomorrow and a piece of poplar not doing anything tomorrow. Will post results.

[unitedcases]

Ooops, one last thing. Didnt see any tabs at all. Did it work for you this way Dan?

[bergerud]

Ooops, one last thing. Didnt see any tabs at all. Did it work for you this way Dan?

The tabs come with the cut path. They will be there.

[unitedcases]

Sounds good. Excited to try this. May not sleep well tonight.

[racer]

All I can say is THANK YOU for all the work you do to Help The forum and the CW. John

[henry1]

Here is the Y gear box. All the 3d stuff is converted to patterns and it is in 1.187. I made it from a 3" X 4" X 3/4" thick piece of cast acrylic. It could be made form other material like phenolic. Most of the important milling is done from the front side for accuracy. The motor mounting hole is done from the back side and may vary a little depending on how the sides line up. The mounting has a little adjustment built in so, the line up only has to be close. The bearing holes as milled on my machine give a nice press fit. If your cutting bit wobbles, the holes may be made larger. I only converted the 3d stuff to patterns. The tilt and the trusses. Everything else can be tweaked if you need. Do some test carves out of MDF or wood first. This is another untested Bergerud project with no guarantees! I only ask that you post your results.

I carved it using a carrier frame with a pocket right through. Carrier is cut with place on center onto a piece of MDF slightly larger than 5X12.

I press fit 3X4 the piece. Double sided carve placed on center. Flip the whole carrier. Requires only the 1/16 carving bit and the 1/8 cutting bit.

You will need two bearings: 5X16X5 (625) and a special flanged 5X11X5 (F685). Also, you might want to find some screws for the motor that are just a little longer.
nice one berg just want to say thank you also the the little plastic behind the cover that clips in the motor guest we have to drill that one out so the black plastic fits back in just asking

[bergerud]

nice one berg just want to say thank you also the the little plastic behind the cover that clips in the motor guest we have to drill that one out so the black plastic fits back in just asking

You may have to cut a little off the end of the tab on the black plastic piece. I did not want to make the hole go through to help keep the grease in.

Edit: I am not sure what the black plastic piece even does. I guess it just stops the heat sink from moving around on the motor.

[henry1]

You may have to cut a little off the end of the tab on the black plastic piece. I did not want to make the hole go through to help keep the grease in.
Were did you find the longer screw for the motor did you already have them they are metric right and your right I will cut it off so to keep the grease in

[bergerud]

Were did you find the longer screw for the motor did you already have them they are metric right and your right I will cut it off so to keep the grease in

I found them in my box of screws! Doesn't everyone have a box of screws? (I save everything.)

[henry1]

I found them in my box of screws! Doesn't everyone have a box of screws? (I save everything.)
LMAO yap I do also but those are real small quest I will be looking// guest what I found them under miscellaneous screw I be dam

[fwharris]

I found them in my box of screws! Doesn't everyone have a box of screws? (I save everything.)

Problem is you have the find the right box of screws that screw is in! ;)

[bergerud]

I just carved a gear box out phenolic and it was tough. Broke a Chinese cutting bit on the last cut out. I changed the max cut per pass on the last cut out. You might want to use this latest file instead of the one posted earlier. I do not want any broken bits!

[RogerB]

Man that is some hard stuff to be carving .I made my router table out of 1 " even used tap and die set for the holes . Not too many people use phenolic. Nice to know it can be carved with the CW.

[ktjwilliams]

Thx Dan,,, Ya know I'm on it !!!! LOL ... Did the bearings fit good in the piece ??? Do you need the flange or would non flanged work as well ????

[bergerud]

For me, the bearings were a nice press fit with the acrylic. The phenolic was a different story. I think the bit was bending as it cut. I had to ream the holes out by hand. The rear bearing is so tight, it needs no flange. There may need to be some hand tweaking on this thing. Motors may be a little different and the clearance between the motor and the small bearing boss is close. Make sure you get the motor sitting square. Make sure you use the last mpc posted. Download again.

[unitedcases]

So now just a plain 625 and 685 bearing? No need for the flange? Carving the back side of this thing now. Pretty excited. Making parts for the machine with the machine. Found a piece of aspen i am trying. On optimal.

[liquidguitars]

I just carved a gear box out phenolic and it was tough.

Cool could you use the 3/16 end mill They work relay well. Also how well did it index? did you use the " keep in sled" idea?

[bergerud]

So now just a plain 625 and 685 bearing? No need for the flange? Carving the back side of this thing now. Pretty excited. Making parts for the machine with the machine. Found a piece of aspen i am trying. On optimal.

I would not trust not having the flange. I suppose one could glue in the bearing or a stop ring behind the bearing. Make sure you use the latest mpc when you carve something harder. (I changed some max passes after the phenolic experience.)

[unitedcases]

Using the latest upload. Will definitely use the flange ones then.

[bergerud]

Cool could you use the 3/16 end mill They work relay well. Also how well did it index? did you use the " keep in sled" idea?

Good idea to use 3/16" for phenolic. The stuff is tougher than I though. The front to back line up worked ok for me. Center on frame and flip the whole frame. Carved 5 now and all lined up.

[liquidguitars]

Center on frame and flip the whole frame. Carved 5 now and all lined up.

cool I will try this...

[unitedcases]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/03/4ydehyma.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/03/y5edutuq.jpg

My shot at it. Ordering the cast acrylic and bearings shortly. Well done Dan. Well done.

[bergerud]

Looks good. Line up looks good. (You can tell by how the bearing hole in the back is centered in the boss.)

[unitedcases]

I was a little worried. I carved it on my machine that is usually a touch off. Pretty impressed with this design. I think I am going to make a real one and put it on my machine that has the beefed up er20 on it. Maybe I will just make that one my beta parts testing machine.

[bergerud]

Here is my phenolic attempt. Just needs some grease and ready to go. Made a new plastic cover without the brass gear hole. You may have noticed that I moved the motor back a little stopping the brass gear from sticking out. Now the grease can better stay in and the saw dust can better stay out. (You may also have noticed that my plastic gear is the one I turned for the outside bearing before. I now need a normal one.)

[unitedcases]

Ok, so 3 holes in the new cover, 1 for the sprocket and 2 for the outboard mount screws. Then a stupid question. The flange bearing in the back?

[unitedcases]

And...did you use anything special for the new cover? Plexi?

[bergerud]

Yes, flange in the back (if I had one). For the cover I just used a piece of packaging plastic.

[liquidguitars]

I just ran the part and i having some aliment issues on the back I used " center" and flipped the sled.

Since I can't relate to the small non WYSIWYG random part board size most of the " center people use" I decided to place your y box part in the sled MPC you gave us so we are 1:1

for my old machine i think it best.

[liquidguitars]

I took the liberty and changed it only use the 1/8" mill.

[bergerud]

It only used the 1/8" mill before. How did the carve turn out?

[liquidguitars]

It only used the 1/8" mill before. How did the carve turn out?

Right, i decided not to use the 1/16" carving bit and just used the 1/8 mill for it. turned out well but off a little on the rear side.

[bergerud]

I finally got my fanged bearings and put my phenolic Y gear box together. Greased it up and installed it. Added some thin flat washers under the lock washers. Works fine.

I had to grind a little flat spot on the side of the rear bearing flange for motor clearance. Otherwise it all fit.

(It was important that the carrier board and the piece were 3/4". If the material you use is less than 3/4", you may have to make a spacer to go under the flange.)

[Digitalwoodshop]

Question? Does the CX address the Y Bearing iussue?

AL

[ktjwilliams]

Of course not or it would-a been another talking point !!!! The Chinese can't handle to many changes at one time !!!!



Question? Does the CX address the Y Bearing iussue?

AL