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BrianandBessie Kesner
01-11-2014, 02:35 PM
Hi all,
We are seriously considering a carvewright system for our business. We are trying to cut out the middle man after various bad experiences with laser engraving businesses. Its taking two to three weeks minimum to get our product back and it is slowing us down. We know that the carvewright will expand our inventory line which is awesome. However we want to make sure that we understand the equipment and that it can help with our original product line before we invest. We make custom turkey and deer calls. Our biggest concern is how easily and accurately the equipment can handle our logo on our turkey pot calls. We are considering using the machine to completely carve out the inside of the pot as well. We currently do them on a wood lathe. Any idea how long this may take? We will be applying our logo as a vector image within a 1.8" circular space. Can the machine handle something that small with the detail we have legibly? Can we still use this logo but exclude just a little bit of the detailing if not? Any suggestions or advice? We appreciate any help or input!
Thanks,
Brian

bergerud
01-11-2014, 03:05 PM
I would say that the logo detail you need is pushing it. Can you post a logo vector image file? The machine, however, could probability make the turkey pot call itself. So, if you post more info on the call itself, we can see how the machine would make it.

SteveEJ
01-11-2014, 03:32 PM
I agree. If you left the text on but the image with the mountain and trees off you could do a light scribe with a vbit. It would be pushing it even at that.

Why not buy your own laser printer and print yourself? Should be easy to do and gives you full control. Business write off too.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-11-2014, 05:24 PM
We have looked into a laser engraver but are limited in our options and they run approximately 8K. Write off or not that's a bit ambitious at the moment. The business is new and small. If the carvewright can handle our current work load it opens us up to new work and possibilities that are more in line with what we want to offer. We are a sporting goods company. Carving and "rustic" applications are more in line with the vision that we have for the company. We don't yet have the logo reformatted in vector form. The original logo file was built in photoshop as a layered document. We have sent it to laser companies that have converted it but we were not given that file. We are a husband and wife team here. I (the wife) have a 12-13 year history in design and have worked in vector format but our software at home is not vector friendly that I am aware of. In the past I worked with Adobe Illustrator, Corel Draw and a Vinyl application program that came with the plotter that I ran. My intention is to upgrade some software when we get the machine and utilize the capabilities of the software that comes with the carvewright. Does Designer 2.0 have an option to vectorize graphics and then go in and clean up any unwanted messes that the rastered file left? I will include a gif file with this post of just our logo and can provide layered, pdf, or eps versions as well. We are willing to eliminate some of the detail and keep the original feel of the logo to aide the machine. We have also discussed enlarging the logo to fit the entire pot and let the holes that are there for sound purposes fall where they may (within reason) I will follow up with an image of how that would look.
66894

unitedcases
01-11-2014, 05:26 PM
What about a rotary engraver? I hear they are more reliable and much cheaper. And upkeep is easier as well. From what I hear.

bergerud
01-11-2014, 06:11 PM
Here is some quick mock ups of your turkey pot call. I have no idea how it is really made but here is what I threw together. This is what it would like in the Designer program. The machine would make pretty well what you see. (It is 3.8" in diameter.) The logo could look quite a bit better if it was cleaned up for this purpose.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-11-2014, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the mock ups bergerud. We have been working with our logo this evening against a turkey call and adapting it to hopefully suit the carvewright a little better. This is what we have mocked up. We want to maintain as much detail in the finished product as possible. The yellow areas would, if possible be completely cut out to let out sound rather than using the original sound holes. I am also including a png of the entire file. I'm posting the inside of the pot as well. Keep in mind that this pot has the original sound holes in it. Currenly on the wood lathe the calls are taking me about 45 min to complete. I was hoping the carvewright would give me a break off the lathe and do some neat stuff carving the logo sound holes and eliminating the cost of the laser work. I'm guessing it would also be a two sided carve if i use carvewright to do the inside hollowing.
669026690366904

bergerud
01-11-2014, 07:19 PM
The time for the machine to do it would be about the same if you choose the the highest quality carving. You could also make many at a time. Looks feasible to me. Let us know what you decide to do. We here on the forum just love to help out.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-11-2014, 07:25 PM
Thanks everyone for the peace of mind and advice. Just wanting to make an educated purchase here. One last thing... Would you guys recommend the 60 degree V-bit and centerline text for this logo work or could we get by without it for the time being?

dbfletcher
01-12-2014, 06:13 PM
Take a look at Full Spectrum Laser. They have 40 watt machines starting at about $2500 that could easily do what you want. I have owned the 4th gen laser from them and now I have a 5th gen laser. Looking forward to upgrading to a 90 watt tube sometime this year.

http://fslaser.com/

cestout
01-12-2014, 06:23 PM
When I demonstrate this machine, in my shop or at a show, I almost insist purchasers get Centerline and Conforming Vectors. The 2 together are very powerful. I usually use the default 90deg V bit but have and sometimes use the 60.
Clint
.

unitedcases
01-12-2014, 08:01 PM
That could open some doors. Here lately about every 3rd or 4th piece requires a metal plate and i have to go and get one made. It's a pain. Those look affordable as to the size they can engrave on. Al?

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-12-2014, 10:39 PM
Yes, we contacted Full Spectrum laser and you're right, it's the best deal out there. We wanted to grow the wood side of the business and thought if we had to buy one machine this winter it would be a carvewright. I guess i was hoping it would do both hollow the turkey calls and carve our logo with the same machine. The calls are seasonal and thought the carvewright would fill in some gaps. I'd love a break off the wood lathe also. I also thought for the deer grunt calls I'd wait for the rotary jig and do them also on the carvewright too. I just didn't know how much detail or small it would carve into the call surface being only 3.8" in diameter. Maybe i'm asking too much from just one piece of equipment and small detail for the carvewright to do the logo.

bergerud
01-12-2014, 10:55 PM
I think you should try to make your logo into a true type font. There are others here on the forum who do such things. The logo could then be cut on the curved surface as a character with a 60 degree bit and conforming centerline text. You might be happy with the result. One of us would certainly give it a try if you could make it into a true type font character.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-12-2014, 11:05 PM
The text Foggy Mountain Game Calls is a true type font , however the other graphics of the mountain,turkey, and trees are not true type font. Are you saying I can make the graphics (mountain,trees, turkey) true type and be able to carve it with detail?

bergerud
01-12-2014, 11:32 PM
Yes, I believe you can do that. I am not an expert on converting vector images to fonts. Maybe someone else here might have advice as to software and techniques.

DickB
01-13-2014, 07:08 AM
I think the logo has too much detail to work well as a font. But if you want to try there is a Tips and Tricks on the subject: http://www.carvewright.com/assets/tips/CarveWrightTips_and_Tricks_May09.pdf

I found two tools with free versions that I have used to do this: Scanfont 5 and TypeTool 3. Here is the method for these tools:


Convert image to black and white bitmap.
Launch Scanfont 5.
Tools - Options - Outline font editor, check Export outline font into VFB file.
Open the image.
Click Export - Automatically assign names - A_Z. Select a file name.
Launch TypeTool3.
Select File - New.
Open the VFB file.
Copy and paste the glyph to several character positions (some will be overlayed with a software logo, some will not and will be usable). (Left click on the new glyph, then right click and select Copy. Left click on character A, then right click and select Paste. Repeat for B etc.)
File - Info - Names and copyright. Enter a name. Select Style name - regular. Press Build Names. Select File - Generate font.
Install the font. Identify a letter that does not have the overlayed logo and use it in Designer.

You can also download a trial copy of Designer to see how it would carve. It will take a little time to get and learn how to use these software tools, but you will get a pretty good idea if it will work or not without spending any money. If you generate the font, one of us would probably carve it for you to try.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-14-2014, 09:19 PM
Okay... We have an older version of Corel Draw that has been neglected for a while so I'm rusty but I was able to convert the file into a vector format using Corel. I was not able to export using Corel to a truetype font as it said that there were too many objects to export even after welding several of them together. That is with our original logo. I haven't tried the slimmed down version that we were considering without the trees and such. The surface that we are wanting to carve the logo into isn't curved. The portion of the pot where the logo would go is flat. I will convert the second file and post both. Would anyone be willing to see how it might take to their machine? We would greatly appreciate it! We are fairly sold on the idea of buying but we are trying to map out our limitations before we take the leap.
If anyone is willing please let me know which file format you prefer and I will be happy to provide it. Can I post vector in the forum or would I need to email the image directly? - Thanks again for all of your help.

fwharris
01-14-2014, 10:26 PM
Okay... We have an older version of Corel Draw that has been neglected for a while so I'm rusty but I was able to convert the file into a vector format using Corel. I was not able to export using Corel to a truetype font as it said that there were too many objects to export even after welding several of them together. That is with our original logo. I haven't tried the slimmed down version that we were considering without the trees and such. The surface that we are wanting to carve the logo into isn't curved. The portion of the pot where the logo would go is flat. I will convert the second file and post both. Would anyone be willing to see how it might take to their machine? We would greatly appreciate it! We are fairly sold on the idea of buying but we are trying to map out our limitations before we take the leap.
If anyone is willing please let me know which file format you prefer and I will be happy to provide it. Can I post vector in the forum or would I need to email the image directly? - Thanks again for all of your help.

I had a similar results in converting your original image to vectors with AI and importing into designer. What I saw was an issues was trying to reduce the logo down into your space needed on the call and getting a good clean looking carve detail. It looked great on a large scale though..

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-15-2014, 07:08 PM
Any suggestions to carve it 3.8 inches in diameter?

fwharris
01-15-2014, 08:12 PM
Here it is inside a 3.8" circle. Note that I did a LOT of clean up on the vectors by removing a large majority of them to clean up the look. The depth of carve is at 0.035"..

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-15-2014, 08:35 PM
Thank you for your help and picture fwharris. It looks doable. We really appreciate the time you put into it to help us figure that out. I had to do a little clean up work as well but was able to make some adjustments with the programs between Corel Draw and Trace to keep it from being excessive. I also adjusted some of the areas of the logo that I feared would give us the biggest troubles. I am attaching an gif made from the vector file that we will probably go with. I think we've been able to maintain the integrity of our brand and logo but hopefully find something a little more carvewright friendly. We plan on carving it with a 60 degree v bit with centerline text software. Any opinions?

66997

fwharris
01-15-2014, 08:47 PM
Let me work with the new logo to see what works. With centerline you do not have any control on the depth of carve so I would suggest trying use vectors so you can control the depth. On the picture I posted that was the 60* bit also...

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-15-2014, 09:05 PM
would you like me to email you the vector file to save you from having to fuss with it? I can save it as an illustrator file. If so message us your private email address. From what I can tell I am unable to attach an ai file in the forum. Thanks again

fwharris
01-15-2014, 10:33 PM
Here is the test vector. Again did some editing to remove some vector lines...

James RS
01-16-2014, 05:08 PM
Just a thought, could you make the words into a font and the rest a vector and put it all together in designer?


Here is the test vector. Again did some editing to remove some vector lines...

fwharris
01-16-2014, 05:10 PM
Just a thought, could you make the words into a font and the rest a vector and put it all together in designer?

I thought about that also and it could very well be done.

I moved out the game call text and replaced it with centerline text. Also after seeing the depth of carve on the centerline I raised up the depth to 0.016 from 0.050 on the rest. It does make a big difference in the over all look..

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-16-2014, 06:46 PM
Thanks, that looks very good James. I will have to drill holes or slots around the logo area to let the turkey sound out of the call but this looks great. So do you suggest getting centerline text software when we order the carvewright tomorrow?

fwharris
01-16-2014, 06:51 PM
Thanks, that looks very good James. I will have to drill holes or slots around the logo area to let the turkey sound out of the call but this looks great. So do you suggest getting centerline text software when we order the carvewright tomorrow?

I would suggest centerline and the conforming vectors software. The conforming vectors will allow you to do vector carving on a surface that is lower that the top board surface. To see the features view the tutorials in the support section on the CarveWright site..

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-16-2014, 06:57 PM
Gotcha! and a 60 degree v bit? I know i won't even plug the carvewright in until i get the dust collection hood.

DickB
01-16-2014, 07:08 PM
With a vector cut that shallow I would be concerned that a small error in bit finding or uneven placement of board surface might result in faint or no carving. I would look for an aftermarket 30 degree bit and cut deeper.

Digitalwoodshop
01-16-2014, 07:09 PM
FW,

That last one was Impressive....

Good Job !!!

AL

fwharris
01-16-2014, 07:29 PM
With a vector cut that shallow I would be concerned that a small error in bit finding or uneven placement of board surface might result in faint or no carving. I would look for an aftermarket 30 degree bit and cut deeper.

Agree that could be a concern and would expect several tests carves to get things fine tuned.

fwharris
01-16-2014, 07:31 PM
FW,

That last one was Impressive....

Good Job !!!

AL

Al,

Thanks Sir! Getting some good leaning and practicing of features! ;)

fwharris
01-26-2014, 07:15 PM
I've been helping Brian out with his turkey call design, making him a bit impatient waiting for his machine to arrive :-D, and have done a couple of carvings. First carve was with the drill holes and second with arc slots so that the logo could be enlarged for improved look to the design.

The first carve I did lowed the V bit after it started the carve as it seemed to start out a bit shallow and I set it to low. For the second carve I did adjust the depth in designer and let it run as designed.

racer
01-26-2014, 07:37 PM
They look great hope you get to try a call.

fwharris
01-26-2014, 08:50 PM
They look great hope you get to try a call.

I would love to give them a try for sure. We do have a lot of turkey out here but finding access to hunt them is the hard part.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-26-2014, 09:15 PM
Ohh no worries Floyd, we have something special for you soon. We will make you a gift pack and matched box set for all your help. We take copper and inlay the metal into the calls as well for a limited edition. I'll make sure you get one. You have been a wealth of knowledge for us. I really appreciate your help. You also have me staring really hard at a new work bench built just for the carvewright that is empty. :) I can't wait to start making chips. I run a manual wood lathe so cutting chips is what i'm used to, I'm not sure of the lingo for the carver. In any event the holy grail will be when we start making deer grunt calls with it too. I'm going to need a rotary carve for that. I'm not sure the rotary carver technology has advanced enough yet for that. Thanks again for your help.

bergerud
01-26-2014, 09:59 PM
Great work Floyd. Your contribution to this forum and its members is far beyond the call of duty. I hope LHR appreciates what you do as much as we forum members do.

easybuilt
01-26-2014, 10:42 PM
Nice job Floyd, I very impressed with your attention to detail.

fwharris
01-26-2014, 11:47 PM
Dan,

Dan,
Thanks sir for the recognition. Your contributions to the community are truly over the edge and always amaze me. Most times I'm thinking "now how in the hell did he think of that!"

I really do not see what I help out with as going beyond, just more like helping out the new carver so they can get off on the right foot and be successful. Some of the same help I received when I first got started. Plus there is that challenge of seeing those "A new design we have not seen before and being asked to help with"!

Brian,

Thanks for the generous offer on the box set. They sound almost to good to take into the field. Can't wait to get run out of the house learning how to scratch out a yelp! :D

Grunt calls, hmmm.....

fwharris
01-26-2014, 11:55 PM
Nice job Floyd, I very impressed with your attention to detail.

Tom,

Thanks sir.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-27-2014, 07:19 PM
I think we have got the basic design down pretty well with everyone's help and especially Floyd's hard work. The only thing I will have to hammer out is a method to locate the call blank (4.75" squares) consistently every time on some sort of sled. The two sided carve, flipping the board has caused some alignment issues with the face of the call. The outer ring of the call surface in relationship to the inner ring of the slate step is not concentric. The attached picture shows the issue. One side of the call will be alil thicker than the other side, meaning a slight oval shape looking at the call.
Anyone have any suggestions?

67246

bergerud
01-27-2014, 08:28 PM
When I design double sided carves or mills, I try to do all important operations from one side. In your example, the milling can all be done from the same side I think. If you can carve the logo on one side and do all the milling from the other side, the project will not be sensitive to the line up. Out by a 1/16" would not be noticeable. Concentric circles have to be done from the same side. I have more elaborate "line up" techniques but I do not think you need them here. If you post the mpc, I will have a closer look.

fwharris
01-27-2014, 08:33 PM
It came out this way on both carves. One the first I thought it might have been the placement of the carving blank in the sled as it was a bit under sized for the pocket area of the sled. On the second carve I cut the blank the same width as the pocket. The offset or difference is in the Y direction, top to bottom of the design.

All of the design measurements are dead on as far as over all size and pocket cuts. The thickness of the narrow area is 0.13" and wide section is 0.20".

fwharris
01-27-2014, 08:37 PM
When I design double sided carves or mills, I try to do all important operations from one side. In your example, the milling can all be done from the same side I think. If you can carve the logo on one side and do all the milling from the other side, the project will not be sensitive to the line up. Out by a 1/16" would not be noticeable. Concentric circles have to be done from the same side. I have more elaborate "line up" techniques but I do not think you need them here. If you post the mpc, I will have a closer look.

As in 2 separate carving mpc projects? Brian had the same thought or instead of having the logo as the front and pocket cuts on the back reversed the design so it does the logo as the first carve (back side) and then do the pocket cuts as the front side.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-27-2014, 08:48 PM
I guess my thinking was if it cuts both circles meaning the outer OD of the call and the inner slate shelf with the same tool path mathmatically it has to be concentric if carved on the same side together.

bergerud
01-27-2014, 09:46 PM
As in 2 separate carving mpc projects? Brian had the same thought or instead of having the logo as the front and pocket cuts on the back reversed the design so it does the logo as the first carve (back side) and then do the pocket cuts as the front side.

It does not have to be two projects. As you are both saying. Put the logo on the back and then do all the milling from the front.

Why your two sides were so far out should be determined. Do you do many double sided carves? If not, the first test is to drill a hole in the center of a scrap board. If it is not in the y center, you might adjust the y offset. If it is in the y center, then I suppose the sled setup is suspect.

fwharris
01-27-2014, 10:02 PM
It does not have to be two projects. As you are both saying. Put the logo on the back and then do all the milling from the front.

Why your two sides were so far out should be determined. Do you do many double sided carves? If not, the first test is to drill a hole in the center of a scrap board. If it is not in the y center, you might adjust the y offset. If it is in the y center, then I suppose the sled setup is suspect.

I do a few two sided carvings and do see a small off set most of the times. Guess I should to the center drill test to find out if the Y offset is the issue.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-27-2014, 10:13 PM
So do you guys think by carving the logo side first, flipping the board over and then hallowing the inside/cutting the OD the problem should go away?

fwharris
01-27-2014, 10:16 PM
Well not maybe go away but not make the offset as noticeable to the eye as we talked about earlier. I will run a test on my machine tomorrow to see what I find out on the Y offset.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-27-2014, 10:21 PM
Thanks again for your info and experience. You have saved me hours of trial and error. The sled and locating the 4.5" square blank consistently every time is going to be important. One saw cut on the blank that's sloppy in accuracy will effect the call carving i would guess and make the offset worse. I have a pile of walnut and cherry in the shed that's just shy of 5" wide so i will have to make the blanks 4.5" squares.

bergerud
01-27-2014, 11:09 PM
I would make a carrier board out of MDF. Put screws in from the side to hold in the 4.5 X 4.5 square work piece. For the second side, you just flip the whole carrier board. I would think that with a new machine, you would get excellent results with this. Use the machine to cut out the carrier board. If the hole is centered (as it should be with a new machine), away you go.

liquidguitars
01-28-2014, 11:27 AM
The CW tends to offset x,y at every time during measuring. This means you can be as off as much as .1" on a carve per side.
LHR hopefully is investing a small amount of time on this error as it's a deal breaker once you start producing 2 sided products for the market.

Regarding the sled I found it better to use 4+ end blocks.

It comes down to locating the center of a two part MPC each time you run the part top and bottom every time without exceptions it will be off. transfer the moving center to the sled then flip the part and re center and hope your on. In some regards you have to be a little crazy to put up with this abstract.

Digitalwoodshop
01-28-2014, 12:42 PM
I also use the 4 inch rule and I also use Place on end. Remember if you use center on board every time, the machine measures the board twice. If you use Place on End and make your designer board length slightly longer than the 4 inches plus project opening, the machine will stop at that point leaving the rest of the sled under the roller.

You base everything off of the right side of designer and think of it as the brass roller on the top of the screen. I draw a 4 inch block on the right side of designer. In your case you could draw a rectangle the size of the opening and the first time make it a multi path cut path. After that remove the cut path and leave the rectangle to use for centering of the future artwork. Making many copies of that master in case you rename it so you won't loose it.

And lastly make the board width in Designer and the actual board as close as possible. If you have a board slightly wider, it will use Place on CORNER and that will give you problems when you flip the board since it bases on the flipped edge. It will be trial and error to get the width exact from too narrow and should I scale your project to place on corner too wide.

Reading over tips and tricks about the 7 inch rule of wood and Scaling before you make expensive firewood by making the wrong LCD Selection.

AL

fwharris
01-28-2014, 09:25 PM
I just did the drill center hole test and it was dead on center both width and length.

BrianandBessie Kesner
01-28-2014, 10:04 PM
You guys are having too much fun without me. I still have an empty work bench waiting for the machine. Maybe one more week.Floyd thanks for the call file. I learned alot from it. To hallow out the inside did you carve region tool, drill tool, or what method? I have been combing the forum and trying to take all the information in.

fwharris
01-28-2014, 10:18 PM
Well just a little bit of fun maybe! ;)

For the hollowing out it is a series of circles with the 3/16" and 3/8" straight bits assigned to them at the needed depth and how much each pass will cut at one time. (max pass on the bit input screen). I did also use the drill tool as well for the very center area.

To view each bit setting high light the circle and then either click on the "bit tool" icon or right click and select the the bit tool. It will what bit is used and the settings.

You might also want to open up the "carving list" window. go to "view" and at the very bottom is the carving list. Select it and it will open up a side window that will show each element that is placed on the design board.

bergerud
01-28-2014, 10:50 PM
I just did the drill center hole test and it was dead on center both width and length.

Well, that is good news. But then something must be off with your sled system or procedure.

fwharris
01-28-2014, 11:06 PM
Well, that is good news. But then something must be off with your sled system or procedure.

I am going to do a couple of other tests tomorrow. I just read the Y off set test and will see what that gives me. On this hole test I did flip the board just to see how it aligned up on the back side and it asked to "center" on length and "width" versus the front side it just asked to "center on length" so I know is saw the width different. Probably the board I used. I might re run it tomorrow using my sled also.

lynnfrwd
01-28-2014, 11:29 PM
View > carving list

fwharris
01-28-2014, 11:52 PM
View > carving list

Good catch! Thanks...

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 01:29 AM
I just did the drill center hole test and it was dead on center both width and length.

Now do the same test lets say 5 more times and give us the results. :)

bergerud
01-29-2014, 09:30 AM
Ok, I have been thinking about double sided carving and the place on corner thing. I know there is uncertainty and inconsistency in board sensor measurements which causes sides to not always line up. These errors, however, are small. In my experience, they are no larger than 1/16". The offsets some are reporting with this place on corner method are much larger. Floyd's machine seems calibrated, yet the double sided carve was way off.

Imagine a double sided carving placed on the center of a 6" wide Designer board. In the machine I put a board which is 6.1" wide. (We cannot ever really get the widths to agree so, in fear of the scale to size prompt, we make the real board bigger.) We choose place on corner and the machine measures 3" from the left (keypad) side and carves the back of the project there. Now we flip the board. The machine now must measure 3" in from the right side of the board (the software is written for the board to be flipped) and there it carves the front of the pattern, Since both 3" measurements were made from the same edge of the board, the carves line up. The fact that the width of the real board was 6.1" made no difference.

Now imagine what happens if you use a sled and just flip the work piece on the sled. (Suppose that the work piece is positioned exactly in the center of the sled.) All would go as above until we flip the work piece. The machine measures 3" from the right side of the sled and carves the front of the pattern there. Well, that is now off by the 6.1"-6.0" = 0.1" from the carve on the other side. The only way this method could work is if the Designer board and the real board as measured by the machine were the same size (good luck with that).

I do not think that placing on corner should be used on double sided sled carves. I almost always use center on board. Sometimes I flip the work piece and sometimes I flip the whole sled. My Designer boards are always small, just big enough to contain the pattern. The machine measures my sled and puts the pattern on the center. The work piece has to be dead center on the sled if I flip the work piece but the centering does not matter if I flip the whole sled. One just has to make sure that the y offset is calibrated accurately. I have little problem with the y line ups.

Others say they like the place on corner since the machine only measures one end and stays away from the inaccurate front end measurement. This makes good sense, and even more so for long boards. For double sided on a sled, not so good. It would be nice if the center on x and the center on y could be separated. Place on end for x but center on y would be a useful option.

Does this make sense?

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 10:56 AM
The " Place on corner" was The designer/owner of LHR's idea. The issue was the weather expanding and shrinking the sled to make them unusable three months down the road. If you set Designer to 10" in y the sled could shrink to 9.95 and you out of a job for the day $$$ . I am open to ideas but I have 30 or more sleds all designed to build just about any major guitars like the Les Paul. http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/LPSPLTR001.jpg

I decided to not use the CW on guitars anymore until LHR can help me it's been over a year now. instead of help we get the Rocks disabled.

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 11:07 AM
Yesterday I came up with a idea of attaching bars on each end of the sled like motorcycle grips that one could grab and push the sled back in place at the same time it runs.

bergerud
01-29-2014, 11:13 AM
The " Place on corner" was The designer/owner of LHR's idea. The issue was the weather expanding and shrinking the sled to make them unusable three months down the road.

Well, I do not really get that. If you place on center, the sled size does not matter. If you are carving out double sided parts, all that should matter is that the sides line up. Who cares where on the sled the part is or whether it is cut from the middle of the ebony piece? As long as the sides line up. What I was describing is a possible reason that the sides do not line up due to the place on corner option. Just give centering a try. Use a sled where the work piece is accurately centered and try a double sided carve with the center on board option. (First you might do the centered hole test just to make sure the y offset is good.)

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 11:16 AM
I noticed this is in a area for buying a new CW some of my post seem negative this is just the way I pass information.

note: if you are a new owner or about to buy a CW I highly recommend this machine.

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 11:21 AM
Well, I do not really get that. If you place on center, the sled size does not matter. If you are carving out double sided parts, all that should matter is that the sides line up. Who cares where on the sled the part is or whether it is cut from the middle of the ebony piece? As long as the sides line up. What I was describing is a possible reason that the sides do not line up due to the place on corner option. Just give centering a try. Use a sled where the work piece is accurately centered and try a double sided carve with the center on board option. (First you might do the centered hole test just to make sure the y offset is good.)

if you have 50 mpc's and none are 1:1 you never remember what project is set to what sled and what size blank at 100$ per board you be crazy to do this.

I am classically trained as a designer and my sled and my part will always be the same 1:1, if your cad cam is randomly sized forget about it for multiple designs.

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 11:27 AM
If I remember correctly your only option is to remove the board out of the sled,=. try that with a old warped *** reclaimed flamed maple board. :0

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 11:36 AM
I think I'll try on center using a sled. I plan on using the carvewright to cut the sled 4.5" square center of the sled. I will just have to cut my call blanks perfectly square to insert into the sled. Any slop between the blank and sled ill try to use screws to fine tune the alignment. It would be nice for the carvewright have the ability to do a 0 offset feature where you could shift center for two sided carves

fwharris
01-29-2014, 12:47 PM
The " Place on corner" was The designer/owner of LHR's idea. The issue was the weather expanding and shrinking the sled to make them unusable three months down the road. If you set Designer to 10" in y the sled could shrink to 9.95 and you out of a job for the day $$$ . I am open to ideas but I have 30 or more sleds all designed to build just about any major guitars like the Les Paul. http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/LPSPLTR001.jpg

I decided to not use the CW on guitars anymore until LHR can help me it's been over a year now. instead of help we get the Rocks disabled.

Brandon,

So you are actually doing 2 side carves using the place on corner concept?

bergerud
01-29-2014, 01:28 PM
I think I'll try on center using a sled. I plan on using the carvewright to cut the sled 4.5" square center of the sled. I will just have to cut my call blanks perfectly square to insert into the sled. Any slop between the blank and sled ill try to use screws to fine tune the alignment. It would be nice for the carvewright have the ability to do a 0 offset feature where you could shift center for two sided carves

Welcome to the forum Foggycarver. If you make the square hole right through, you can flip the whole sled. In that case, the centering of the piece in the sled is not important.

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 01:47 PM
Yes I agree, flip the work holding fixture or "sled" and not the call blank and it should be fine alignment. Another method if you had trouble on two sided carving is to create a sled and add a locating pin or slot to the sled that mates up with the workpiece. Placement would be correct every time if you pinned the part to the sled say for example a center hole.

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 01:57 PM
Brandon,

So you are actually doing 2 side carves using the place on corner concept?

All my projects are run this way, about 6 years now... overall I am happy with the system however I noticed a lot of slop in my measurement logic. compound this with user position errors and this can add up to a lot of errors that possible you will see in your parts project down stream.

DocWheeler
01-29-2014, 01:59 PM
Dan,

I'm not arguing with you one bit, just a clarification.

I would call what you are talking about to be a "frame" rather than a sled.
An earlier post of yours had me confused and I thought that others might be as "foggy" as me.

I always think of a "sled" as having a bottom or "carrier board".
You have to be clear when talking to us old-poops.

An example is what happened to me the other day.
The other day when I was ready to pay for my purchases of gun powder and bullets... The cashier said, "Strip down, facing me."

Making a mental note to complain to the NRA about the gun control whackos running amok, I shed my clothes just as she had instructed.

When the hysterical shrieking and alarms finally subsided, I found out that she was referring to how I should place my credit card in the card-reader.

I have been asked to shop elsewhere in the future.

They need to make their instructions to us seniors a little clearer!

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 02:01 PM
Ken, LOL .......

bergerud
01-29-2014, 02:47 PM
Ken, I guess we should adopt some consistent terminology. Sled should mean, as you say, an under supporting jig. Frame is a good term for a jig which allows access from both sides. I have been using the term carrier board for my jigs which include both cases.

In my description of what happens with place on corner when you flip the piece and not the jig was for a sled. A frame which flips with the piece would not cause the line up problem.

liquidguitars
01-29-2014, 02:51 PM
Ken, I guess we should adopt some consistent terminology. Sled should mean, as you say, an under supporting jig. Frame is a good term for a jig which allows access from both sides. I have been using the term carrier board for my jigs which include both cases.

In my description of what happens with place on corner when you flip the piece and not the jig was for a sled. A frame which flips with the piece would not cause the line up problem.


Not that I can use "rails" how can this be if the home cords are not the same per side.

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 02:53 PM
I do appreciate everyone's help. Everyone on the forum has different experiences and background knowledge that led me to purchase the carvewright last week. I haven't got it yet but learning from you all. My day job I work in a machine shop using G Code to program so going from metal to carving wood is different but some machining/milling principals are the same or universal. The sled is my last piece of the puzzle for the double sided game calls. The forum has made me think and listen to many options. Thanks

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 07:40 PM
Dan,
I like the idea of the "frame" type sled for the call blank. Like you stated earlier i could use screws to secure the blank by using screws from the sides The problem will be after carving 200 calls the "frame" type sled will be ruined with taking screws in and out securing the blanks. I was thinking about using metal threaded inserts on the sides of the frame and just using machine screws to hold the call blank. I might have to grind the ends to sharpen them some so it grips the blank better. I hope there isn't too much tool pressure causing the call blank to move. I see alot of you guys use tape to hold things which tells me there must not be much tool pressure.

fwharris
01-29-2014, 07:59 PM
Dan,
I like the idea of the "frame" type sled for the call blank. Like you stated earlier i could use screws to secure the blank by using screws from the sides The problem will be after carving 200 calls the "frame" type sled will be ruined with taking screws in and out securing the blanks. I was thinking about using metal threaded inserts on the sides of the frame and just using machine screws to hold the call blank. I might have to grind the ends to sharpen them some so it grips the blank better. I hope there isn't too much tool pressure causing the call blank to move. I see alot of you guys use tape to hold things which tells me there must not be much tool pressure.

Yes your sled will eventually need to be replaced. That is why using MDF would be the material of choice. Less cost! Even the sleds with bottoms will eventually need to be replaced. Doing the cut outs will chew up the base as the bit does penetrated below the carving board surface.

For me masking tape has worked very well if you tape all exposed sides. Just do not try to re used the tape strips a second time. If your carving blanks fit snug enough into the pockets there will be very little movement.

Digitalwoodshop
01-29-2014, 08:00 PM
The Machine Screw idea would be good as would be the wood screw idea. Just some food for thought for the future.... Your machine will likely be a production machine and run for hours and hours.... You will find posted in the troubleshooting area some users having the machine start carving in the wrong area in the Y axis. This is usually one of 2 things.... The 2 little 685ZZ Bearings in the Y gearbox go bad and the servo motor and the actual output gear slip some teeth. This makes the Y carve closer or further from the Brass Roller and not in the actual area. OR the Y Encoder either gets dust inside or the clear disk spins free on the servo.....

So here is where the food for thought part comes in with this long winded post.... Sparks.... If the Bit hits a metal part when it is running and gets off axis... the sparks and the dust collection system could make for a Hot Time in the Shop.... You can find a outide metal shop picture from last summer where the guy left the machine running and went to the store.... Got back as the Fire Dept. was leaving.... The fire started near the machine but He did not know why....

So this is a long shot.... But Brass Hardware as in Wood Screws.... Non Sparking Screws.... On a Railed Sled I use Wood Wedges facing each other to PINCH the blank in place and Masking Tape to hold the 2 Wedges together....

Good Luck,

AL

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 08:24 PM
Those are good points and well taken. A fire in the shop isn't good. I am used to machining metals so i tend to want to use metal alot. Machining metal also there is alot of tool pressure and breakage so I keep thinking I have to really hold onto the work piece solid. When i saw tape was holding parts pretty well for you guys I was pretty taken back by that. Yes the machine will be a production machine and plan to follow the maintenance schedule to the T. I would think MDF won't have issues expanding and contracting like other woods also. What does a railed sled look like?

fwharris
01-29-2014, 09:08 PM
A railed sled it just two same sized strips of wood to hold the carving piece with two end blocks for staying under the rollers

Digitalwoodshop
01-29-2014, 09:21 PM
A railed sled is one with a base and a solid set of rails on each side to support the rubber rollers. The down side it that they can't be much higher than the actual wood insert heigth or the bit can "Trip" over the high rails and snap...

Here is one I played around with turning Quilt Rack Rails into Fishing Rod Holders... Just cut slots.... for fun with the CW.

I use a PVC Board Sled or Carrier Board for the plastic tags I cut. Love it... I did put strips of tape on the bottom since the PVC board is pretty slick.

You should also consider a Vacuum Sled.... One that has a internal area with ports to suck down the board blank using a Veneer Vacume Pump to hold the parts... I am making one to hold the tags. It will make for quicker cleanout...

A Vacume Sled for your part, you could hold down the board by the outer areas and run 2 files, cut one, flip board insert, cut 2nd file...

Or even like the Nested Santa's... A whole board full of the Calls.... Let the tabs hold it... Do both sides....

AL

I see FoggyMountainGameCalls.com is still avaliable....

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 09:39 PM
That's a good idea, one call at a time could slow me down considerably otherwise. A whole board full of calls would be ideal but i was afraid of alignment issues doing that many and flipping the board. The lumber we get at the saw mills can be alot of work getting perfectly straight square lumber. Side note don't let the wife see Christmas ornaments, she's an artist and loves to hand paint them. She'll steal my machine at Christmas. :)

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 09:52 PM
If i use a 1/4" MDF base and 1/2" side rails and end blocks this should work for my 3/4" thick blanks? The side rails are glued or screwed on i assume?

bergerud
01-29-2014, 09:57 PM
If you can design a jig that can stay in the machine yet allow you to flip and/or switch call pieces, the process can be made faster and more consistent. The problem is that there is only enough space to get 4" long pieces in and out from inside the machine. The jig can be up to 5" thick, however, allowing space to get the piece in and out from underneath. See the trefoil knot jig:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?17945-A-Five-Sided-Carve-A-Trefoil-Knot&p=150966#post150966

Others have talked about having the sled long enough so that the piece can be delivered out the front of the machine while the sled stays under the rollers.

I am sure there are ways to make mass producing more efficient. An interesting challenge.

Foggycarver
01-29-2014, 10:04 PM
Well i've done them for years one at a time on the wood lathe, at least now i get to watch the machine do it.

bergerud
01-30-2014, 08:58 AM
How about a frame on sled? A frame like the one I posted on a sled with side rails. The rails slightly higher than the frame so the rollers only pinch the rails. The frame with the call in it can pull in and out the front like a drawer.

Digitalwoodshop
01-30-2014, 06:42 PM
If you designed a sled to insert blanks and get the flipping of the blanks worked out another thick posted above is to make the sled have a dead area so the machine finishes cutting and then does one more cut, just somethng like a shallow hole in the end of the dead area. The machine would stop with the finished product sticking out the right side of the machine as you face the keyboard. The slight drill hole or cut in the dead area would move the sled to the right.

You could now load the new blanks and without turning off the power or cranking up the head.... If you now select the project again... It will start up without measuring the sled... a HUGE time saver.... And if I was doing this... I would design and use a wide sheet of Fiber Board and carve out rectangles in two or three rows. The rectangles made to accept a cut blank held by masking tape on 4 sides.

I would do this as 2 projects... One project mpc for the front and one for the back... With the sled sticking out waiting for you to either flip or install a new blank... The Sled would never be removed... Just flip blanks or install a new set... 2 mpc's.....

At some time you will likely get a power company, power failure... IF you designed a sled with say 12 blanks... It would be easy to make a FIX mpc to only carve the blanks that were not cut yet... OR do the Zero Carve Region over the done blanks...

AL

liquidguitars
01-30-2014, 08:42 PM
You could now load the new blanks and without turning off the power or cranking up the head.... If you now select the project again... It will start up without measuring the sled... a HUGE time saver.... And if I was doing this... I would design and use a wide sheet of Fiber Board and carve out rectangles in two or three rows. The rectangles made to accept a cut blank held by masking tape on 4 sides.

this could work.. with my stuff Designer and the sled have the same ID... We need it to to cut the phantom rest location last for sure tho.

fwharris
01-30-2014, 09:12 PM
Talk about some new cool sled concepts



Talk about some new cool sled concepts! The do sound very workable but just hope we are not getting Brian to confused/mind boggled.

I did do 2 test carves today using the "place on corner" concept. One using the original layout with pocket cuts on the reverse side and the other switching the layout to pocket cuts on front side.

I first set up my sled and had it cut the 4 1/2" pocket hole for the carving blank. Using the same mpc I then transferred the design layout where the pocket cut was for both designs. Trying to get everything set up and aligned correctly on the original was a challenge as the only real reference point I had was the vertical center (I am sure I'm missing something on this) and ended up being more of an eye ball. It was still offset but not top to bottom so I know my eye ball was not good enough:p.

The reversed layout was much easier to do and there was no offset as expected. Highly recommend this concept for any and all projects that are similar in design. Thanks Dan for pointing out the obvious!

One thing I did notice using place on corner was that the pocket was not centered on the width of the board. Is that to be expected using this feature?

bergerud
01-30-2014, 10:16 PM
One thing I did notice using place on corner was that the pocket was not centered on the width of the board. Is that to be expected using this feature?

Assuming the pocket is centered on the Designer board, using place on corner would only center the pocket on the width of the board if the Designer board and the real board (as measured) were the same width.

Something to watch out for with place on corner and double sided carves is that the back is placed relative to the keyboard side back corner whereas the front is placed relative to the sliding plate side back corner. Is that obvious?

Did you flip the sled with the call piece in it or did you flip the call piece in the sled? If your pocket was not centered and you flipped the call piece in the sled, the line up should have been off by twice the offset of the pocket.

I think place on corner should only be used if you have a frame sled which you flip. Otherwise, use center on board with a centered pocket. Actually, I see no advantage to place on corner for small double sided carves.

fwharris
01-30-2014, 10:45 PM
Assuming the pocket is centered on the Designer board, using place on corner would only center the pocket on the width of the board if the Designer board and the real board (as measured) were the same width.

Actual board was just a hair wider than the design board, so that does make sense.

Something to watch out for with place on corner and double sided carves is that the back is placed relative to the keyboard side back corner whereas the front is placed relative to the sliding plate side back corner. Is that obvious?

Now it does ;)....

Did you flip the sled with the call piece in it or did you flip the call piece in the sled? If your pocket was not centered and you flipped the call piece in the sled, the line up should have been off by twice the offset of the pocket.

I flipped the piece and not the board. I did not see any obvious offset what so ever but will take a better look tomorrow. If there was an offset I would think that the logo (reverse side carve) would of been off center but did not seem to be.

I think place on corner should only be used if you have a frame sled which you flip. Otherwise, use center on board with a centered pocket. Actually, I see no advantage to place on corner for small double sided carves.

Makes sense to me!


See comments in the quote box...

Foggycarver
01-30-2014, 10:46 PM
I understand what your saying Dan, very similar to the 5 cut method for aligning a table saw sled fence by the 5th cut it really multiplies the offset. Flipping the entire sled without ever moving the call blank is the trick to good alignment. I am "Foggy" about all these ideas but it's comming to me. I went tonight and got some MDF for sleds and some birds eye maple. Success is failure turned upside down, I have never used the machine yet but as i learn how it operates I'm hopeful the muddy water clears. To be cost effective and efficient I need to get up to about 4 calls at a time and I'll be happy at this point in my learning curve. Pictures help :) I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I promise i'll never forget once i learn. Dan I like your concepts about center and Al your ambition for multiple call blanks. You have me thinking, but I'm about a week out from getting the machine. Brian.

Foggycarver
01-30-2014, 11:18 PM
One of the things I have to keep in mind finding birds eye maple, walnut, and other select woods i can only buy it from our saw mill at best 6" wide. It's real hard to find wider maple, or walnut wider than that. I usually buy it 1x6 and work it down.

liquidguitars
01-31-2014, 10:47 AM
Assuming the pocket is centered on the Designer board, using place on corner would only center the pocket on the width of the board if the Designer board and the real board (as measured) were the same width.

not really, you can offset center a board say 6" on a 14.5" wide board its called " nesting". it's not relay possible to have a sled the same size as designer if the sled expands. remember why when building raised panels on a shaper or router? " you need .1" free or the door will warp. "sorry I had a c6 cabinet and mill licence when i was young " this is why "place on corner" is necessary for production.


Something to watch out for with place on corner and double sided carves is that the back is placed relative to the keyboard side back corner whereas the front is placed relative to the sliding plate side back corner. Is that obvious?

Most production parts would be split up into 2 mpcs and you never use just one MPC for two sided work.

fwharris
01-31-2014, 11:03 AM
After doing the couple of test carves with place on corner I do have to agree with Brandon and Al that it does save a lot in the measuring sequence. When I place the board in the machine I had it with the majority of the length to the left of center so that when it got to the end it knew there was plenty of board to do the carve.

liquidguitars
01-31-2014, 11:16 AM
Using Mach 3 say you have 3x4 table with 20 Turkey parts all nested in the 3x4 area. The table size has nothing to do with centering but place on the corner does.

the parts just need to be in the right place 100% of the time without any error in measuring home 0,0,0 unlike the CW that changes position when indexing.

Digitalwoodshop
01-31-2014, 11:18 AM
So I am thinking about this.... If I would start fresh with a MDF board with the same thickness of the blanks. Let call the blanks 4 x 4 inches for example. I would use a 12 inch wide MDF blank or what ever the shelf blanks width are. I would make twelve 4 x 4 cut paths centered set to even numbers from the right side of Designer, call it every 6 inches 2 wide. Cut a sheet of thin plywood to cover the bottom. The 4 x 4 blanks will not just drop into the 4 x 4 holes. They can be secured by 4 strips of masking tape. Some Thumb Holes around the outside of 4 x 4 squares might aid in pulling out the blanks.

In this version, the sled would never be removed from the machine, you just either flip the blank and run the back program mpc or install new and run the front program.

Easy...

AL

liquidguitars
01-31-2014, 11:33 AM
I think we need a x prize for the best method of centering two MPC's. using " place on corner" and wide warped lumber as part stock lets say 9x16. I be willing to donate a Electric Violin to the winner... :)

I need this tho:

Sled and Designer are the same in design but the sleds can be .50" bigger all around more or less.

sled can have 4" or 6" or bigger end blocks/tails.
sled needs .75" thick bottom for drywall screws.
sled opening for the parts can be offset like nested parts would be. Think more than one part cut at the same time.
sled rails next to the brass roller can't be larger than .60" if use on guitars, smaller make more room for guitars tops at 13.1" finished.
Designer must cut the opening or layout id for the part blank location.
sled should be one part one sled concept. Designed for just the part and not universal. ie big and bulky.

Foggycarver
01-31-2014, 11:56 AM
Al, I like your idea but I'm not sure i grasp it all because i have never ran the machine to see how it works. The 4x4 inch blank would waste less lumber because of the way i buy it. The OD of the call cut out is 3.9" So i would have a program or file for the front and a separate program for the back? Treat it as two separate operations? What would happen if you had say an 1/8" play or slop inside the pocket between the sled pocket and blank? Would that create an offset alignment issue front to back when you flipped the blank over ? Maybe you could center it all by eye and wouldn't matter in the pocket.

Digitalwoodshop
01-31-2014, 01:21 PM
Al, I like your idea but I'm not sure i grasp it all because i have never ran the machine to see how it works. The 4x4 inch blank would waste less lumber because of the way i buy it. The OD of the call cut out is 3.9" So i would have a program or file for the front and a separate program for the back? Treat it as two separate operations? What would happen if you had say an 1/8" play or slop inside the pocket between the sled pocket and blank? Would that create an offset alignment issue front to back when you flipped the blank over ? Maybe you could center it all by eye and wouldn't matter in the pocket.

I believe small wooden wedges that would be used to force the blank to one common corner, tiny wedges backed up by masking tape to hold the position.

You could make the first function that the machine does is put a dot in a section of the sled that has a flush dowel pushed in with tape on top. You would watch this very first function as a first carve and look at the location of the touch of the bit as in marking a .001 deep hole with the carving bit.

This would tell you the machine was going to cut the whole project in the correct position. If you saw the hole was off, you coud at that time just stop the machine and turn off the power and let it re establish home and bit position again and let it place the hole again. If correct, off you go...

This would check 2 very critical things... X/Y Position as in marking in the center of a flush cut dowel that can be replaced.... and the 2nd would be the Z Heigth... Two weeks ago I was cutting a project in my very cold shop and I thought the Board Touch of the Z was high.... By about a 1/2 inch... And it did it twice... SO I let it go thinking I was wrong... I get the project carving done then the cut path and the Cut Path had not cut all the way through... So I did see a problem and could have started the machine over and corrected it... So what I did was do the Carving of the 2 pockets again as in runing the project again but stopped the machine and cut the Cut Path on the band saw. Worried about pinching of the 1/8th inch bit...

So the Dowel that you can replace acts as a Quality Control check.

And once you make the 12 block MPC you can then make duplicate files of 10, 8, 6, 4, and 2... and even 1..... Just delete the un needed cuttings.... Used to fix a problem or just run one or more parts.... I have a few memory cards and have one with just all my Tag Sizes that I leave in the Wood Shop.

AL

Foggycarver
01-31-2014, 01:38 PM
Yes , that might work if you pushed each blank up tight against a specific corner each time to locate the blank in to the sled. At work we have a square fixture bolted to the mill table and each part is pushed up tight into the square corner. It doesn't matter if the part is round or square just push it up tight into the corner of the square and it works. I might make alot of firewood starting off :) I will do one at a time first,then work up to 4 and see how that goes.

Digitalwoodshop
01-31-2014, 01:56 PM
I would also invest into a Wireless Intercom to listen to the machine and a CCTV Camera inside the cover looking at the carving area... I listen into my machine next door in the Warm Laser Shop. Two things I still want to add is a remote Stop switch by using a relay to open the cover switch from the laser shop and wire the video camera. I have the coax ran just have not done it. Some tried the RF Cameras but the sparks from the Cut Motor Brushes cause problems.

Considering a carve can take an hour, doing a 1, 2, or 4 carving might be better...

AL

Foggycarver
01-31-2014, 03:11 PM
whooa ! alot to think about. Alot of ideas on how to do it i guess there is more than one way to skin a cat so we say here in WV. I guess my personal last idea was to treat the carve as two separate carves. Lets call it the front side which is hallowed out. The second side has a logo carved and slotted to let sound out.
I would cut 4 blanks at a time 4" square blanks. The sled would be simple 4" square holes cut out 3/4" MDF. I would hallow out the call in this operation and cut it free from the blank.
The second operation would be another mpc file and sled. The sled would be 4 round holes 3.9" diameter just a reverse carving of the hallowed part meaning the call would press fit onto the sled to carve the logo and slots.That would keep it from moving and alil tape. What do you guys think?

DocWheeler
01-31-2014, 03:50 PM
You are right, there is a lot to think about.
I have not commented on your project yet, but now feel the need.
I do not want to add to your burden of thoughts, but...

If you are going to produce many of these, I'd definitely suggest that you at least use a 10" X 32" frame.
That way you would carve 10 calls at a time. Thirty-two inches works pretty well without additional support.
With a 10" wide board, you would need dust collection on the top (like Floyd's) rather than the normal downdraft.

I scanned this thread trying to find the reason for cutting the slots from the other side.
I would think it would save time to do all the carving/cutting from one side - must have missed something.

Have you thought of using a "branding-iron kinda thing to burn-in your logo?

fwharris
01-31-2014, 03:54 PM
If I was doing this I would keep it as a 2 sided carve. Have the front side of the design as the hollowing out steps and the back side for the logo. Using one sled as you describe in you first set up.

Foggycarver
01-31-2014, 04:06 PM
Yes we have tried the branding iron and you loose alot of detail in branding. We also are the only call company who can inlay copper into the carving grooves. We actually take copper filings and the process is and inlay into portions of the logo. It makes it unique. Carving is perfect for this. We don't share that process but you can find alot of call makers who have their "signature" in their work. We plan to sell over a couple thousand easily a year. This year i had to stop orders at Christmas because i couldn't keep up on the manual lathe. We don't advertise either or promote. We just try and do good work and give back to local communities. I might have to get you guys to help carve or buy more machines if things go well.

fwharris
01-31-2014, 04:29 PM
You are right, there is a lot to think about.
I have not commented on your project yet, but now feel the need.
I do not want to add to your burden of thoughts, but...

If you are going to produce many of these, I'd definitely suggest that you at least use a 10" X 32" frame.
That way you would carve 10 calls at a time. Thirty-two inches works pretty well without additional support.
With a 10" wide board, you would need dust collection on the top (like Floyd's) rather than the normal downdraft.

I scanned this thread trying to find the reason for cutting the slots from the other side.
I would think it would save time to do all the carving/cutting from one side - must have missed something.

Have you thought of using a "branding-iron kinda thing to burn-in your logo?

Ken,

Glad you joined in on the conversation. always great to get your input sir.

If you asking about the order of doing the logo as the front side vs back side it was found that doing the hollowing out and final cut out as the front side design gave a much more uniform look. It showed no offset of the small ring outer lip that I got doing the hollowing as the back side design. It takes away the issue of perfect placement of either the blanks in the sled or how things lined up when flipping the board. The logo is well with in the diameter of the call and any offset would not be noticeable like it would be with the rings on the back.

The total carve time for one call is right at 40 minutes +/- depending on how long you let the machine set between steps and bit change overs. This will probably be Brian's decision point on how many he would want to set up to be carved at a time would be my guess. And yes he does have one of my dust collection attachments going his way.

DocWheeler
01-31-2014, 05:11 PM
I guess I missed a lot of what was going on, especially the bit used to create it!
Have you considered using a 3/8" bit to hollow-out the insides rather than the 1/16"?
(doing routing rather than carving) Maybe a quarter-inch ball-nose using vectors.

With a thousand calls, that would save weeks!

fwharris
01-31-2014, 05:37 PM
I guess I missed a lot of what was going on, especially the bit used to create it!
Have you considered using a 3/8" bit to hollow-out the insides rather than the 1/16"?
(doing routing rather than carving) Maybe a quarter-inch ball-nose using vectors.

With a thousand calls, that would save weeks!

Ken,

For sure using the 3/8" and 3/16" bit with vectors (circles) for the hollowing out. I did not even consider doing it as a carve region.

DocWheeler
01-31-2014, 06:14 PM
Floyd,

And it took 40 minutes with vectors?
Maybe the logo took longer than I thought.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, updating my security software.

fwharris
01-31-2014, 07:29 PM
Floyd,

And it took 40 minutes with vectors?
Maybe the logo took longer than I thought.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, updating my security software.

I am guessing it is about split 50 50 for each side. For the vectors it is set up for a max pass of .200 going around .500 depth. Also part of the clock time does include all of the pre start checks for the bits and time to turn the board over.

Bit check on this project was a funny routine to. Since I am using the 3/16" for both a vector carve and drill function it asked to install it twice. The same for the 1/8" bit, doing the arc cuts plus the cut out. Very redundant to say the least.

bergerud
01-31-2014, 08:42 PM
Another thing is that separate circles for the route outs will have the bit exit and reenter for each circle. Some kind of spiral will keep the bit down, be faster, and give a smoother bottom. Since drills come after bit paths, the 3/8" could clear out the wood above the drills so that the drills are single pass. Just some more ideas!

Foggycarver
01-31-2014, 10:06 PM
Dan,
If I make a sled 6" wide and 24" long with three 4.5" squares cut out. I use screws like you said and flip the sled not the blanksfor the second side carving do you see any alignment issues doing 3 calls at a time vs. one at a time ?

bergerud
02-01-2014, 12:17 AM
I do not see any problems with that.

srfliny
02-01-2014, 01:32 AM
I would design a sled type jig that would have a rotating block on each end to flip the part in the case of cutting a long single item on both sides... make the sled extra long and program a dead point on the left end so the entire part sticks out of the machine and you can rotate it 90 or 180 for cutting two and four sided parts... Probably would work well for a guitar neck... sort of like a blank in a lathe...

srfliny
02-01-2014, 01:45 AM
I use a sled jig to cut wall plaques and I don't even use tape to hold the piece in most times because it is a tight fitting 12 x 8 piece of walnut... This allows me to turn the part long ways and carve with the grain... Not sure if that dulls the 16th inch carving bit faster or not but the work comes out neater... The lions holding up the Kung Pow Chicken were all cut at the same time... Four lions two sided all done in a jig in one job.. so if each lion would be a call I had no problems at all. They were placed in the jig 2 by 2 x x
x x
6732567326 67324

bergerud
02-02-2014, 10:22 AM
Dan,
If I make a sled 6" wide and 24" long with three 4.5" squares cut out. I use screws like you said and flip the sled not the blanksfor the second side carving do you see any alignment issues doing 3 calls at a time vs. one at a time ?

Consider this idea. The rails on the base sled would be a little higher than the frame sled so the frame sled would slide out the front of the machine without having to lift the head. The base sled could be made of hard wood pieces (I did mean for it to be made on the CW. I just used Designer to draft a picture.)

The advantage of such a system is that the machine will not go through the whole measurement procedure each time and the results would be very consistent. You could even, I think, have a few frame sleds and separate operations with different bits into different mpc's. Save on the bit changes. For example, after cutting the backs of 9 pieces, you do a run of just 9 logo carves.

DickB
02-02-2014, 12:45 PM
I like this sliding sled idea.

fwharris
02-02-2014, 01:27 PM
Consider this idea. The rails on the base sled would be a little higher than the frame sled so the frame sled would slide out the front of the machine without having to lift the head. The base sled could be made of hard wood pieces (I did mean for it to be made on the CW. I just used Designer to draft a picture.)

The advantage of such a system is that the machine will not go through the whole measurement procedure each time and the results would be very consistent. You could even, I think, have a few frame sleds and separate operations with different bits into different mpc's. Save on the bit changes. For example, after cutting the backs of 9 pieces, you do a run of just 9 logo carves.

Very workable for sure. You just have to make sure with the bit is finding the surface you jog it to the carving area and not let it tough on the higher rail. If you do not the the carve would be shallower than your design or not cut all of the way through for cut outs.

I have been doing some piece work for a guy and the sled rails are about 1/16 to 1/32 higher than the piece. On the first few I would stop the surface find and then jog to the surface. I was a bit slow on one piece and when I was about to press the stop button I noticed that the head was already over the piece so I let it continue. The rest that I did that day on a continuous run went to the piece surface. Wondering if it memorized what the new touch point was???

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 01:40 PM
Wondering if it memorized what the new touch point was???
yea that's new i think. probably for something LHR is selling in the future.

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 01:46 PM
Consider this idea.

I few things that stick out " no pun intended" is that you have the tail waste on the part and not on the sled end , I place a 4 or 6" tail on the sled to save cash.

Also for a layout perspective having to keep track of the sled size and the part size as different MPC's would be a fiasco let say one year from now when you forgotten what MPC does what and with what sled..

bergerud
02-02-2014, 01:53 PM
I few things that stick out " no pun intended" is the you have the tail waste on the part and not on the sled end , I place a 4 or 6" tail on the sled to save cash.

Also for a layout perspective having to keep track of the sled size and the part size as different MPC's would be a fiasco let say one year from now when you forgotten what MPC does what and with what sled..

The parts are the three squares. Place on center removes all need for memory!

bergerud
02-02-2014, 01:55 PM
The machine does memorize the touch spot. It can be a nuisance on double sided when you would like the regular touch on the second side.

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 01:58 PM
The parts are the three squares. Place on center removes all need for memory!

Ok if you say so...

fwharris
02-02-2014, 02:04 PM
Ok if you say so...

Staying firm as always LG! ;) :D

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 02:09 PM
I would center suff but my sleds would be off once the weather changed.

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 02:14 PM
How you guys make production parts without the sled reference in Designer is very odd to me. But to each their own i guess.

DocWheeler
02-02-2014, 02:20 PM
Actually, "centering" would be the only way to maintain accuracy if temperature and humidity changed the sled dimensions.
Your 4-6" ends would change dimensions and your stock would also change dimensions, so it would not matter much except
which dimensions you want to be off. The only way for your "center" to be centered would be the one you seemed concerned about.

Just my thoughts.

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 02:26 PM
Actually, "centering" would be the only way to maintain accuracy if temperature and humidity changed the sled dimensions.

No I don't see it like that I need to make parts to make money.

Lets say my sled is 10" and Designer is 10" WYSIWYG but the sled shrinks .1" I would receive the scale to size error right? This never happens with " Place on end or corner.

like i said it relay up to the machinist center or not center Mach 3 for the larger CNC likes to " Place on corner"

bergerud
02-02-2014, 02:46 PM
My Designer boards are almost always just big enough to surround the pattern. Never even near the size of the real board or sled I will use. I center it on the board and it gets put in the middle of whatever sled I am using. I usually make the Designer board the same size as the piece of material I am going to use. The minimum size required to get the carve out of without cutting into the sled.

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 02:49 PM
My Designer boards are almost always just big enough to surround the pattern. Never even near the size of the real board or sled I will use. I center on board and it gets put in the middle of whatever sled I am using. I usually make the Designer board the same size as the piece of material I am going to use. The minimum size required to get the carve out of without cutting into the sled.

Yes I know odd. In the old days using a T square we set one point as reference. I defer to Chris L. " the designer of the CW" and Al.

DocWheeler
02-02-2014, 03:51 PM
Dan, I do that design like that also; however, my stock may vary from my Designer board.

Brandon, What kind of material are you carving that does not change size for the same reasons the sled changes?

liquidguitars
02-02-2014, 07:41 PM
Brandon, What kind of material are you carving that does not change size for the same reasons the sled changes?

Ok sure, once cut the sleds are the work horse they contain everything i need for said part " thickness, and size " when i place the card in the CW it also tells me what sled to use 10 x 20 6 x 5 no guessing like you guys have to and they last for a year two I do not need to alter them, however the stock that fits in the pockets can be off as much as .20" without any issues. Luther's tend to cut part in whats called " bolts" and then store the bolts for use down the road if by chance they don't fit in the pocket of the sled just trim them down.

Just the other day someone here had to place a piece of tape on their sled to pad for contraction, I will never have this issue anymore thanks to " place on Corner"