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dehrlich
11-23-2013, 12:55 PM
So I'm wondering if anyone else does this. Do you ever go into someplace, perhaps with your wife/girlfriend where there are products made by other woodworkers, and examine their work, pointing out all the flaws?

This last week my girlfriend and I made a trip to a new craft shop to show some of my products. Was a great trip, sold over $400 worth of product with the promise of more in the future. On the way back we stopped at a large store called "Kansas Originals" which has only products made in Kansas. There were lots of various products and I found myself looking at some of the stuff and making comments like "that is a terrible job of finishing" or "They should have sanded that better". I spotted a small shelf that was made from a beautifully figured piece of maple, which is a shame in itself. That board should have become something more elegant. Anyway, the builder had not sanded it enough to take out some of the "planer rash" (tear-out), and it looked like they had only sprayed on one light coat of finish so there were dull spots. And there were exposed fasteners that looked like decking screws. For shame!!! In addition I found cutting boards and rolling pins made with oak?? Big no no! My girlfriend bless her heart tells me that the fact that I'm so picky is what makes my products a step above. I feel that if I am going to put my name on something it better be as good as it can. I don't want my stuff showing up at Antiques Roadshow in 100 years and them saying it's worthless because I was just an average craftsman LOL.

On another note, there were countless violations of the college logo copyright laws. I know a couple of schools for sure that require a sticker fixed to every product, and there were all sorts of products with no sticker in sight. Makes me wonder why I worry about getting licenses when nobody else does and they get away with it. Also makes me feel that I should make mention of it to the company that administers those licenses. Anyway... who else does stuff like this? Or is this my own brand of crazy? HEHE

Dale
11-23-2013, 01:07 PM
Yeah I have a tendency to do that also but I usually keep it to myself. I am much more critical of my own work. My wife gets upset with me when I point out areas that did not come out as good as I would have liked.

myshop1044
11-23-2013, 01:11 PM
Like Dale I too keep it to myself, they may be doing the best they know how to do.
there is old saying "when you point a finger at someone ,remember there are 3 fingers pointing back at you".
Perry B.

peep
11-23-2013, 01:18 PM
Me too, but worse, I often say......how did he do that!

brdad
11-23-2013, 02:43 PM
People make items at their ability (and wallet), but also as soon as it it a marketed item they make the item to be at a price and profit margin that will sell. If you want to make a profit you can't put 10 hours of build and finish time into a $25 product. I always see items built different than I would have done - it does not mean whoever did it is less of a craftsman, it only means their reasoning for making the item the way he did was different than mine might be.

Most of my work involves building construction, and it is upsetting how many in the business are always badmouthing other people's work. On a few occasions I have seen contractors totally bash a job only to have the homeowner state it was his work or even worse, that of a deceased parent.

In other words, be careful how and why you judge other people's work...

Digitalwoodshop
11-23-2013, 06:33 PM
So I'm wondering....

On another note, there were countless violations of the college logo copyright laws. I know a couple of schools for sure that require a sticker fixed to every product, and there were all sorts of products with no sticker in sight. Makes me wonder why I worry about getting licenses when nobody else does and they get away with it. Also makes me feel that I should make mention of it to the company that administers those licenses. Anyway... who else does stuff like this? Or is this my own brand of crazy? HEHE

On the Copyright issue... Especially Sports stuff... I always imagine the lights going out in the County Jail and "bubba" wispers in your ear... "Tell me again why you are here....?".... LOL... I worked at our County Jail for 3 days and QUIT....

aokweld101
11-23-2013, 07:04 PM
I occasionally vend on the weekends and am around a lot of woodworkers the thing is none of us do the same type of woodworking one might do scroll saw work another does chain saw carvings, one makes wood furniture, and another does bowls, and I of coarse do woodworking with the carvewright. If not a Blanton eye sore it is not something that I might not mention. you don't want to say something bad about anyone. rule of thumb is on that matter is nothing said...nothing can be said...

fwharris
11-23-2013, 09:42 PM
I think it is something that probably something that most people who are skilled in a certain area or works in a certain medium usually does when viewing out people work. It is not done with the intent to find the imperfections or mistakes but they are noticed if you know what your looking at.

Now for me most times it is "Oh yes that is what I should of done!"

unitedcases
11-23-2013, 09:46 PM
Thats what I was thinking floyd. I definitely critique myself harder than I probably should. To each his own I suppose.

badbert
11-23-2013, 10:42 PM
I made a box for a friend to give as a present. I screwed up the depth of carve! It was different side and front. So the inside of the miter joint, the fronts were deeper than the sides... It was a highly figured Walnut Burl. There was no starting over. I resawed and planed down the left over piece and mitered them, and made "insert spacers for the sides". My wife was amazed! I was devastated! To be honest it really came out almost perfect. When I tried to point the seams out to my friend, I look up and she is wiping tears away... She couldn't have seen that seam if she had tried! I truly don't think she could have been happier. But I learned from that lesson! LOL I've learned to please my wife. If it pleases her it is good!

TerryT
11-23-2013, 11:43 PM
On another note, there were countless violations of the college logo copyright laws. I know a couple of schools for sure that require a sticker fixed to every product, and there were all sorts of products with no sticker in sight. Makes me wonder why I worry about getting licenses when nobody else does and they get away with it. Also makes me feel that I should make mention of it to the company that administers those licenses. Anyway... who else does stuff like this? Or is this my own brand of crazy? HEHE

Google this;
coalition to advance the protection of sports logos

Then take a look at this
http://hamptonroads.com/2013/01/chesapeake-man-must-pay-10k-over-fake-sports-gear

Read some of the other stuff, it's pretty scary. That is why I have resisted the temptation to do sports logos.

CW-HAL9000
11-24-2013, 12:23 AM
I do a lot of flea markets, craft shows, and farmers markets. The booth costs me 25 to $50 and in order to make sure I make my booth money I have a lot of little quick to make items, crosses , signs, boxes. These sell for $5 to $15 these pay the booth and get me started. In order to sell for that price they are carved in bulk, designed to carve quick, little sanding, using cheap cull lumber pine from the big box stores and even scrap wood and pallet wood. I apply some quick spray stain, quick spray lacquer ( I spray 10 or more at a time).

Then I have $25 to $100 items that I put more time and attention to details. Box joints, dovetails, nice paint and stain with better lacquer or poly finishes, even spar urethane if it may go outdoors. If you look at my cheap stuff closely you could criticize all day long. I hope my higher end items are better but I still have to keep in mind hours vs what I can get for an item. Family gifts and personal items, commissioned items get even much more attention to details. I have paid for my carvewright a few times over and I make an average of a few hundred on a Saturday or Sunday. If you are doing this part time but to help pay the bills then you have no choice but push the stuff out the door. My big items attract attention and get me more orders for later or commissioned pieces where the work is longer but the profit is larger, while the little quick stuff is the bread and butter. I see pen turners, bowl turners and others who are there weekly and do the same thing and then I see people who only do high end stuff and while there stuff is well worth it they are often disappointed with their sales.I have seen those come and go.

Ton80
11-24-2013, 09:49 AM
I look at it this way.. There is always someone that does better work than you so I try to never be critical of others work. I am a professional finish carpenter and I see some real hack jobs out in the field. I always bite my tongue, especially with a homeowner because you never know who you are insulting. Like yer momma used to say, " if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all."


Of more interest to me is the licensing issue. First off, I would never call to report someone. You are talking about local craft people that are probably struggling and while it might be technically illegal to infringe on a registered trademark, is it really your obligation to do report them. And how much harm would you be causing that persons family as opposed to the harm that person is doing to a sports organization.

PLEASE! Don't read anything into my comments because I know there are probably a few people that are going to.

What I would like to know is how do you obtain a license, what would that license cost and is it scaled on how many items you an on producing? I will admit to copying trademarked logos on one-off projects at a customers request. I imagine most woodworkers have done the same Technically illegal. I also imagine that if I paid for a license for that one project the customer would have turned away due to the cost and I would have bills that went unpaid. So, I'm not condoning my actions or others and I would like to learn a bit more about just what it would cost for a very small business to license a trademarked image for extremely low numbers.

dehrlich
11-24-2013, 07:32 PM
Ton80... in response to your questions about the licenses, it depends on the school. I have a license for Kansas University, they do their own. It is $50 to get it, plus 10% of your sales with the logo... and the $50 goes towards that so you get your first 500 for free basically. Several others are the same. The problem comes when you have a school that is part of the big College Licensing Group. To get one for one of those schools, you have to first have product licensing insurance.. part of a business policy. Then its $200 application fee, send in a sample, maybe other fees, and then 10% of your sales. I know it sounds like a pain in the a**, but around here this stuff is big money. I'm working on getting Kansas State first because I am an alumni, and because you basically can't have one school without the other. All I was saying is it doesn't seem like it's fair for me to go through all this just because I want to do it right, and I don't want to share a cell with Bubba, when others get by without doing it. And if it was just like something that Grandma sewed I wouldn't care, but it's stones and metal art and others... stuff that requires machines that aren't cheap. I'm sure these people know what they are doing, they just figure they won't worry about it as long as nobody says anything. Just bothers me that people don't have the integrity. Not to mention the more people that do this, and I know there are lots, the harder it makes it for those of us that do bother to get the insurance and license etc. and have to build it into our price. By the way, i'm a disabled veteran and disability doesn't pay very well. Personally it's not worth the risk of a 10K fine or more just to make a few bucks.. that's why I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Also, don't take what I say to heart, just trying to make my point. Just a friendly discussion here ok guys...

fwharris
11-24-2013, 11:53 PM
Darrin,

That is how I took your initial post on this topic, you were just seeing if others do look at and evaluate other peoples work. I think you were just seeing if it was just you or do others do sort of the same thing. I am sure when you did notice the things you spoke about the only one you probably pointed it out to was your wife and then to use when you were ask in for feedback.

Ton80
11-25-2013, 12:09 AM
Ton80... in response to your questions about the licenses, it depends on the school. I have a license for Kansas University, they do their own. It is $50 to get it, plus 10% of your sales with the logo... and the $50 goes towards that so you get your first 500 for free basically. Several others are the same. The problem comes when you have a school that is part of the big College Licensing Group. To get one for one of those schools, you have to first have product licensing insurance.. part of a business policy. Then its $200 application fee, send in a sample, maybe other fees, and then 10% of your sales. I know it sounds like a pain in the a**, but around here this stuff is big money. I'm working on getting Kansas State first because I am an alumni, and because you basically can't have one school without the other. All I was saying is it doesn't seem like it's fair for me to go through all this just because I want to do it right, and I don't want to share a cell with Bubba, when others get by without doing it. And if it was just like something that Grandma sewed I wouldn't care, but it's stones and metal art and others... stuff that requires machines that aren't cheap. I'm sure these people know what they are doing, they just figure they won't worry about it as long as nobody says anything. Just bothers me that people don't have the integrity. Not to mention the more people that do this, and I know there are lots, the harder it makes it for those of us that do bother to get the insurance and license etc. and have to build it into our price. By the way, i'm a disabled veteran and disability doesn't pay very well. Personally it's not worth the risk of a 10K fine or more just to make a few bucks.. that's why I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Also, don't take what I say to heart, just trying to make my point. Just a friendly discussion here ok guys...

OH, yeah I agree.. friendly indeed ;) I understand your thoughts on this, especially being in an area where college sports is basically big business. I surely didn't mean to infer any harshness towards you and I hope it wasn't taken that way. I know that it is difficult to do the right thing and pay all the fees/taxes and then to have to compete against prices that don't have those expenses factored in. In a sense I sometimes feel the blame falls on the licensing expenses being too high as to be seen as acceptable to the woodworker. As an example, like I mentioned, I've built cabinets for people that wanted a college logo or professional team logo across the front. These are one-time purchases and I only build the one ordered. If I was to go through with getting a license that required me to pay $200+, then send a sample and 10% then I just don't see anyway to make that work. It's impossible to make those costs up unless I mass produce an item. Looking at this through my point of view, I want to do the right thing but it just doesn't compute. Am I taking a chance, I suppose I am and when I sit and compare my outlook to yours, mine does feel hard to justify to you. Legally, there probably is no justification for my view but morally, I feel like the big business practices of imposing such high fees across the board, regardless of volume output from the woodworker, are wrong. They hurt the very small business that is commissioned to build one-off projects for an individual and basically tell me they don't want me to be able to exist unless I scale my business up to a level that I can't, or don't want to be at. Regulations like this should have some sort of sliding scale that starts at near zero and only climbs after you are producing a certain number of product.