Centerline and 90 degree bit

[Proctorw]

I carved a sign on Saturday for a friend who was moving. It came out great! I used Mahogany and planed it down to 9/16. I put it in a sled that was 1/2 thick. Worked perfect. Tonight I have been trying to carve a Prototype Plaque on 3/4 inch Particle Board, no sled. The first side it did was the back which was just a simple "Made By". The 90 degree air carved. I let it continue and turned it to the front. Again, the 90 Degree Air Carved. The Carving bit carved the symbol I had, but no letters. I checked the head and it slid up and down fine. I powered off, blew out the machine with my compressor at 70psi, oiled the tracks, tried again and nothing. I stopped it on the back side, slid the 90 degree down a bit and again nothing. This is a new machine 3 weeks old, with about 30 hours on it. I did the 25 hour cleaning prior to last weeks Mahogany sign. I am confused and would appreciate any help.

I uploaded the MPC, but I am pretty sure it isn't the problem.

Thanks !!!

[DocWheeler]

I looked at the mpc and found no text on either side, just the circles and cross-parts.

[Proctorw]

Uploaded the wrong file. Same name, different directory

61419

[DocWheeler]

It would seem that there was a problem with the bit-length from the firmware's perspective.
If the board is still intact and strong enough to recarve, try deleting everything except the text (saving in another name)
and carve that one while watching the bit touch the bit-plate and surface.

[Proctorw]

I watched the V-bit touch the plate each time. The third time I tried it, I paused the machine and lengthened the bit just a little (maybe 1/8 of an inch, couldn't really tell). I have the Carvetight chuck and the 90 degree uses the adapter with a small plastic sleeve. I guess I will call support in the morning. What I am wondering is if it worked on Saturday because I had a sled. Oh well, another learning opportunity.

[chebytrk]

Be sure to post what you find out from LHR cause I've had the same issue with my new CW. I also comoensate by pausing the machine & pulling out the bit by hand just a tad. That works, but I'm sure there is something going on because we should not have to pull out the bit.

[bergerud]

When do you lengthen the bit? After the bit plate touch or after the board touch?

[Proctorw]

chebytrk, is this with all the bits or the Centerline bits only? I noticed the first couple of passes on the carving bits sometimes just hit air, but after just a couple of passes, the carving bit will do its job. I just noticed I didn't have the "Conform" box checked for my text, so I am going to try that on a test cut this morning. I will post the results of my test cut and what I find out from LHR.

[Proctorw]

bergerud, I lengthened it after plate, board and even the first couple of missed carve passes.

[Proctorw]

Just tried a test cut with the "Conform" box checked. No difference the 90 degree just cut air (which it does really well).

[chebytrk]

Mine happens with all bits. I too do it after it touches the bit plate. I "eye ball it" and pull down the bit just a tad and start it back up again. I have 2 machines and it doesn't do this with my older machine (rock chuck), but only with my new CW. Does fine after that, just that I have to do this anytime I have to change out a bit of any type.



chebytrk, is this with all the bits or the Centerline bits only? I noticed the first couple of passes on the carving bits sometimes just hit air, but after just a couple of passes, the carving bit will do its job. I just noticed I didn't have the "Conform" box checked for my text, so I am going to try that on a test cut this morning. I will post the results of my test cut and what I find out from LHR.

[Proctorw]

OK, I will let support know when I posted this others have had this problem. Have you reported it to LHR? and if so what did they say?

Thanks!

[lynnfrwd]

Lay your board on a flat surface and place a level across the width. Is it higher on the edges and lower in the center? You were only carving .04" deep. Try 60 degree instead. It's more forgiving of variances in height of the board and carves deeper.


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[Digitalwoodshop]

And confirming that the bit touched the bit plate twice not 3 times and touched the actual board at least 2 times... I think you are going to say yes to 2 times bit plate and 2 or 3 times on the board as I read above. Because what can happen is a Speed bump in the Z can cause this... with the Z Reversing when hitting the speed bump... I have thought of making a insulated plastic and metal sensor mounted to the bit plate when the bit touched the plate a beeper would go off....

It is possible to from above see the head reverse directions.... But not actually touch the plate... This is due to the head going down further without the sled into un charted territory.


AL

[t147]

Connie,

My new C machine is doing the same thing. I attempted to carve The LAST SUPPER this morning. The machine did not set down far enough to carve the faces with the carving bit. I used the same pattern with my A machine two days ago and it worked fine.

Thanks, Ted Richard

[phxdatadr]

I have had the same thing happen

[Proctorw]

I could tell that the bit touched the plate twice because I could see the plate move. As far as the board, it appeared it did touch, but I can't be certain. This carve was done on MDF that was flat. I checked it out. I did report this to LHR and they are researching it now.

[phxdatadr]

I haven't tried the 60 degree yet. with the ninety degree bit it just carved a few thousands deep and did not work coorectly

[lynnfrwd]

I could tell that the bit touched the plate twice because I could see the plate move. As far as the board, it appeared it did touch, but I can't be certain. This carve was done on MDF that was flat. I checked it out. I did report this to LHR and they are researching it now.

The project is being carved now.

[Proctorw]

Thanks! I have been very impressed by the CarveWright Staff and how quickly they respond!

[phxdatadr]

I just did a carve w/ the 60 and the same thing

[lynnfrwd]

Ok...on the proctor project.

We carved it and had no problem (except the "cliffs" of the cross lead to excessive chip out).

There is a signature on the back of the project that is carved with the 60 degree v-bit.

When you flip it to do the front, it asks if you want to REFIND or CONTINUE. You must select REFIND to remeasure the height of the board. The springs in the head of the machine can place it at a different position than before.

The 90 degree v-bit should really be changed to the 60 for such small text.

Can you verify whether or not you are selecting REFIND?

[bergerud]

Ok, I am sorry, but that does not make sense to me. When the board is flipped, the whole measuring process restarts with no memory of bit lengths or board heights from the back side. What you are saying implies that the length of the bit was remembered from the measurements on the other side.

(I would carve this myself but I believe this is a C machine problem.)

[lynnfrwd]

What you are saying implies that the length of the bit was remembered from the measurements on the other side.

Yes, if you do not select refind.

[Proctorw]

OK, I am going to try it now. Point of clairification, on my project, both Front and Back were defined as 90. I have readjusted to 60. I will post my findings. I do remember it asking to refind my board height which I did as 3/4. Actually I have yet to have a project where it didn't ask me to specify the thickness. I just thought this was normal. Anyway, I will go start it now. Thanks!

[bergerud]

Yes, if you do not select refind.

Is that only on the version C machines?

[lynnfrwd]

Joe is going to go redo it again and make sure he can post exactly what the prompts are. (one of our techs carved it earlier and I was relaying the message)

[jlovchik]

ok, I've run the tests. First, there is no difference between the Versions of machines when it comes to the control code. It's all the same, so this isn't anything related to what version machine it is. Second, there was some confusion about bit refinds and such. The bits will always re-find after flipping a board. There is no message asking you if you want to re-find. It does it automatically. Third, I was able to recreate the problem with the 90v bit. On the Cross project, it did the rout on the back side, but very shallow. Then after flipping it, the 90v air carved just barely over the board surface. When the test was done with the 60v, all worked fine. I am having the software engineers take a look into the bit offsets to see why this is happening. Unfortunately, since it is late Friday afternoon, we'll have to resume this next week, but we'll get it fixed.

[bergerud]

there is no difference between the Versions of machines when it comes to the control code. It's all the same, so this isn't anything related to what version machine it is.

I did not know that the control was the same for all machines. I really thought that the measuring routines for the C machine were different than for the A and B machines. I thought that the C machine was more finicky about bit lengths. Nice to know it is not. Thanks, that information will really make a difference in trouble shooting these types of problems.

[fwharris]

I had a local carver call me the other day asking about this same issue "90* bit air carving".
Only thing I could tell him was that I have seen a few posts about it.

I has seen it also on occasion with my A machine but not on every carve..

[t147]

My C machine air carves every time regardles of software, bit,
or project, flipping sides ??? same thing. The machine has less than 15 hrs. because I can't use it (purchased the first week of Jan. 2013). My old refurburished Craftsman A is working great.

Help! Would the rubber belts upgrade be a factor????

Thanks,

[lynnfrwd]

So that is what? 5 with the same issue? Ok. Is everyone happening on two sided carves or both. As much detail as possible will help the engineers figure this out. We haven't had new firmware in a while. How long has it been happening? Anyone with anything other than a c machine seeing this? What version of the software? Bits from only LHR? Or does it matter? Stop collars new or old?


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[bergerud]

I gave it a try on each of my B machines. Single sided, double sided, bit high in CT, bit low in ER. All worked fine. I could not get the 90 V to anything but work just fine.

[t147]

I am seeing this only on my C machine (less than 15 hrs.) purchased in early Jan. '13. I have not tried two sided carves, because of the problem of air carving. I have the carve tight spidle and upgraded rubber belts. I have only used the LHR carving and cutting bits. I have on both my C and A machines firmware 1.186. I hope this info is helpful.

[chebytrk]

Mine (C machine) does it with any bit & I have only carved 1 sided projects. Started happening approx 3wks after purchase. Using 1.85 software. I manually adjust the bit by pulling it down after the bit touches the kick plate.

[bergerud]

I just tried the 90 V bit with center line on my friends C machine and it worked fine. No air carving.

[phxdatadr]

So last nite i had a plaque to deliver for this morning. i carved the plaque and then it asked for the v grove. i put in the 60. it went thru it's dance. then ite prompt said routing figure. I stopped the machine , Open the door and then moved the bit down abot 1/8 in and restarted the text rout. it carveed it. , but only after lower the bit a 1/8 of in.

Beats me! Connie plz let us know what you guy find at LHR
Jim in phoenix

[lynnfrwd]

Will do.


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[henry1]

sorry to hight jack I had a dell teck work on my dest top now I cant use the program to carve can you help

[Old Salt]

I had a new user tell me he was having this with his new unit .
had no fix for him had not run into it yet
Add me to the list.
gary

[Proctorw]

So last nite i had a plaque to deliver for this morning. i carved the plaque and then it asked for the v grove. i put in the 60. it went thru it's dance. then ite prompt said routing figure. I stopped the machine , Open the door and then moved the bit down abot 1/8 in and restarted the text rout. it carveed it. , but only after lower the bit a 1/8 of in.

Beats me! Connie plz let us know what you guy find at LHR
Jim in phoenix

I did the same thimg and it worked fine on my MDF board. Tomorrow I am going with the "Good Stuff". I am going to use a sled. My dilemma is, do I expect the same result and should I drop the bit down, or will it act differently being on a sled. The base of the sled is 1/2 MDF. I am assuming I still need to drop down the bit. I may use a sled but put a piece of 3/4 MDF first to see what happens. I will keep you posted. One more note, when LHR said the carved the back side of my original project and it worked fine, I had no success with either side without dropping the bit down after the message "begin Routing". I played with the length of the bit from the start, but still carved air. The only way to get it to work was dropping it down after the "begin routing" message.

[jlovchik]

I've run some more tests, and have found the solution for the air carving problem we saw here. In going through all the steps of troubleshooting anything with the machine, I always start with the basics. Check the head pressure and clean the machine. I found the head pressure was reading really low, so I cleaned my posts and adjusted the head pressure back to where it should be. Now, it seems to be carving the project fine. If the head pressure is too low, it can throw the bit offsets off and cause the air carving we were seeing. So, check and adjust your head pressure and I think you'll have the problem solved.

As far as the person who was having all their bits air carve, I need some more information. This could also be head pressure, but not enough info yet. Is this a new C machine and has it always done it since you got it? Have you verified that there is no obstruction on the z rails that is preventing the z truck from traveling all the way down to touch off the board? It could be a calibration issue that we can solve by restoring to some defaults and then doing a user depth calibration. Let me know the answers to these questions or call in to our tech line and we'll get it figured out.

[Proctorw]

I had just cleaned my machine with the 25 hour maintenance prior to this project. I checked the head pressure then 83lbs. Just checked again after running this project over the weekend and it is still 83/84 lbs. I don't believe that is the issue. The only way I got it to work over the weekend is after the bit touches the plate twice, comes back and touches the board is to raise the cover and lower the 60 degree about 1/8 of an inch. I also lubed the rails again this weekend just to make sure that wasn't an issue. Still not resolved.

[Digitalwoodshop]

IF you manually pull the Bit Flag out, does it look Level and not bent up of down?

AL

[gashawk]

When you invert a carve region within a carve region, you do the same as piling carve regions. This can change other carve depths.

[Proctorw]

IF you manually pull the Bit Flag out, does it look Level and not bent up of down?

AL

It looks level.

[phxdatadr]

What Proctor Said

[Proctorw]

Just had to abort the project. Was using a sled with a 1/2 base. The bit seemed to cut without any adjustment, but 20 minutes into it, I realized the depth was definitely wrong. Will Call LRH in the morning and let the know of the progress.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Had a strange thought... Check the machine head for level... Wide Board, Bit Installed, Cranked Down, Touch the bit to both sides manually while reading the Z Data on the LCD... IF the head was not level.... "Might" cause this.... Just a WAG... Wild AL Guess...

AL

[Proctorw]

Will check this out tomorrow. Too many folks are having this problem to be an adjustment. I have spent probably 20 hours since Thursday trying to get this carving finished for a dear friend. I will let you know what LHR has found out. They do agree this seems to be a software problem.

[bergerud]

They do agree this seems to be a software problem.

Is this not a problem with a run of new C machines? That does not sound like software. My bet is that there has been a run of some part which is defective. A part to do with the z encoder or controller. What effect would a poorly etched encoder disc have? What about bad EEPROM storing the z parameter data? I think some of these parts need to be swapped around to narrow down which hardware is causing the problem. Someone with this problem may have to send their machine in to LHR.

[gashawk]

I had a similar proplem with this carve: 61478 When the carving is done the carving bit cuts around the middle shell and around the drawers. So when I went tocheck the carve in the morning the cut motor was running and the x y z wern't moving. Having carved the pattern before I checked the difference. The center shell was an invert, I changed to a negitive merge ran the program again with no proplem.

[lynnfrwd]

LHR is looking at EVERY possibility to figure out what is causing some customers this issue.


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[Proctorw]

To back up what Lynnfrwd said, I have been on the phone with the Senior Engineers. They have asked me to perform other cuts to get more information. The last one I did on Monday. I was asked to cut a 2" or so square or rectangle 1/4 of an inch deep. I did this twice,removing the board, flipping it over for the second cut. Both times the depth measured 7/32. So engineering has this information. I will call and get an update sometime today. Funny how work gets in the way of my new fun....

[phxdatadr]

Thanks for your Work Proctor

[Proctorw]

Update - I have been working with Carvewright on troubleshooting. Today they sent me a reset program. I popped it in the machine, then ran some tests. I have sent CarveWright the results, but thought I would share them. We are making some progress. The support they have been giving is great. I know some folks would be irate having this issue with a less than 4 week old machine. That being said, I want to get this fixed, support has been great. They are just as anxious as I am as fixing it. I am not kissing up..just stating the fact that I need this problem fixed and it is easier to work with then fight with anyone who is helping you solve a problem. Enough Soapboxing, here is the email I sent:

Here are some more data points
Last night (Tuesday 9th), prior to the reset today, I carved a Cherry 9/16” board on a ½ inch sled as a test. It didn’t air carve, but again, it was barely 1/32. The same project air carved on ¾” MDF with no sled.

I reset the machine this evening (I believe) with your program. Here are my results –


No air carving. I used the same type of MDF as I did earlier (Apples to Apples) and the machine did not air carve. That being said, It didn’t carve quite deep enough. The lettering had no tapering at all on it and was 1/32 of an inch deep. If I was to try to paint then sand, I would probably sand off the lettering. Not sure how deep the 60 degree should carve, but 1/32 is not enough.
I cut a small square, about a 2 x 2 “, 1/4 deep. Prior to the reset, I ran the same test and the results were 7/32 deep. Now after resetting, the depth is ¼”.


In summary, the reset did have a positive effect. I didn’t have time tonight to cut another 9/16 Cherry Plaque (which I really need to get done tomorrow as I need it for Saturday evening), but will do it tomorrow night. I may have to hand adjust, but running out of time for this Plaque.


Please let me know what else you need. I will call in the morning, between 9:30-10:00 or between 10:30-11:30

Thanks,

Wayne Proctor

[t147]

Thanks Wayne,

I will wait to contact Carvewright until I hear of your next results. My C machine has approximately 15 hrs.

Ted

[phxdatadr]

Wayne , I think we got our machine about the sametime. We Can ask Connie she will know. How do I get the reset program?

[lynnfrwd]

I've got a list started and you're on it. Not sure if it has to be individual files or if software version will fix it. (Not totally sure what IT is except maybe a firmware recalibration)


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[phxdatadr]

Can you let me know what is going on with this?

[phxdatadr]

I mean to say Connie :)

[lynnfrwd]

Engineers have provided Wayne with some additional steps to take. I'm assuming it will be this evening, again, before he can get to it.

[t147]

Connie,
I followed Joe's suggestion to check the head pressure. Sure enough it was low. I cleaned, lubricated, and realigned. I then did a simple project using only the carving bit. There was a definite improvement, but it was still off. The project called for a .640 depth, but only .625 was accimplished, thus several surface areas were uncarved.

Thanks, Keep working on it.

Ted

[lynnfrwd]

Have u tried the user recalibration? Watch the video under Support > Maintenance.


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[Proctorw]

I did the manual re-calibration of depth and re-carved the test board. It was OK, but not great. I then tried to cut my plaque which was 9/16" cherry on a 3/4" sled. It is working fine. I also learned something from Connie that if you mouse over the "Centerline" text it will show you the depth it is going to cut, even though you can't adjust it. I widened my letters and the plaque is over 60% carved. It looks good. It appears to be a combination of a number of items.
1. The original text was quite small.
2. The machine, once it was re-set with the software sent to me, Air Carving stopped. Carving wasn't deep enough, but progress.
3. Expanding the size of letters caused the carve to go deeper.
4. Carving on a sled that was 3/4". Not sure if that had an effect.
The plaque is fine (I think, not all the way through the process yet).
Thanks to Connie for her help with this.

[Underdog]

Is the air-carving just happening with v-bits on engraving (centerline) cuts? Or has someone experienced it happening with other bits?

I had an air-carving experience with my 1/8" cutouts on my dust collector carve. It started above the surface of the 3/4 board (on a 3/4 sled), and only cut halfway through. I had a "depth mismatch" message even after I told it to refind the depth. I still haven't figured out what happened there.

[lynnfrwd]

It may be happening with every bit. It's just more obvious with the v-bits because they are already so shallow. (particularly with Wayne's project.. .05 or so deep).


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[Proctorw]

Just finished the Plaque. It came out perfect. No adjustments needed once I completed everything Connie and team had me do. I feel like the software reset had the biggest impact.

Thanks,

Wayne

[lynnfrwd]

Awesome!! Now don't forget to post a photo of that project for us.


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[phxdatadr]

Proc Said
2. The machine, once it was re-set with the software sent to me, Air Carving stopped. Carving wasn't deep enough, but progress.

will you send it to me please...Have to Carve this week end

[lynnfrwd]

Firmware Lord is working on it now.

I will have one for you, too, Jerry.

Connie

[t147]

I hope I'm on the firmware list. Behind on projects.

As always Thanks

[t147]

I used the recalibration for depth this A.M. twice. Each time on the same project as last night there was more air carving than before. This last time there were twelve air passes before the carving bit touched the wood.

Help and Thanks for continuing to help.

[lynnfrwd]

t147

Have you run the file that I sent you? I didn't think you had it until this afternoon at 4PM.

Connie

[Proctorw]

Connie,

Mine is carving fine. Thanks for all of the help. I will post a picture tomorrow once the stain dries.

Thanks again for all the help,

Wayne

[lynnfrwd]

Awesome news. Now if we can get these others going.


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[Proctorw]

One more note. After I finished the Plaque, I cut another cross/crown of thorns I had picked up on the forums. I made about 9 of these prior to Easter and after each one, I had to cut the cross from the board on my scroll saw as the cutting bit never actually cut all the way through the board. The cross last night came out perfect. It cut through the board and I didn't need the scroll saw. So we have success Thanks again.

[bergerud]

So, can we get a debriefing from LHR on this? Was it a problem with the factory calibration? A loss of stored calibration data?

[phxdatadr]

running my test now

[phxdatadr]

head pressure was at 110 with hd belts ...not sandpaper. so i had to lube the clutch plate.. gonna try another carve on centerline....36"

[Proctorw]

So, can we get a debriefing from LHR on this? Was it a problem with the factory calibration? A loss of stored calibration data?

I believe for my machine, It was never calibrated correctly. The first project I cut was the cross with crown of thorns. And as I stated earlier, it never cut all the way through. Now it works fine. I am noticing more detail in my carves, although my friends couldn't tell. That being said, I am very grateful for the support I have received. I know I paid good money for this machine, but I have been in similar circumstances with different purchases and have never had this kind of concerned, professional support I have had from LHR.

[phxdatadr]

I am carving correctly... No recal

[Proctorw]

Final Product. Was able to get it before our Priest left to go home to Nigeria. He really liked it. After I presented it to him, I had folks asking me if I could "Make This or That"...I cant Believe my 4 week old machine already has 52 hours of carve time. Thanks again to CarveWright for helping to get my machine carving correctly!
61665

[Bigtyme]

Well done, Proctorw...I can see why your Priest liked his gift and why your machine is busy...You do nice work.

[SharonB]

Very elegant! Your gift is sure to be treasured for years to come.

[rcdages]

Proctorw,

Very very nice.

I am sure Fr. will hold this gift close to his heart.

[chebytrk]

Just to let you know that my CW is carving fine now too. Sorry it took so long to get back with results, but work has been keeping me really busy. So.. after I loaded the file as instructions stated everything started working just fine. No more air carving. Thanks for your help Connie. :D


Awesome news. Now if we can get these others going.


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[lynnfrwd]

Good to hear. It seems to be the correct fix for this issue. I think some others with the new C machine may have it, but unless they are using Centerline (which carves shallow anyway) they may not realize it.

[Proctorw]

For new users to check right away, I would suggest what the engineer had me do. Cut a Square 1/4" deep and then measure afterwards. Mine was 7/32 instead of 1/4". And I did it a couple of times on a couple of different boards to make sure it wasn't a board problem.

[liquidguitars]

Stop roll and clean-
I get a air carve once in a blue moon and it normally is a clue that my bearing are dirty " even z pack" and a overhaul in needed for the z truck. if you think about the issues they tend to be with the shorter bits this could the Z truck bearing getting sticky as the truck drops lower than normal for the smaller bit like th v 60.

The shorter the bit the more the truck can be effected with some dirty bearing.