2nd side of carve didn't line up correctly. What happened?

[Underdog]

I put the Fletcher DC MPC on my card on normal with no changes. Then I carried it up the the shop, installed the 1/16th carving bit as asked, and started the first side carve. It went well despite a ton of sawdust generated. (My WORD! CarveWright folks how can you expect these machines to continue operating in that kind of environment! You ought to have an OEM dust collection system!) When it came time to flip the board, I made sure to flip it correctly. In these two pictures you can see that it's flipped correctly because the carve lines up correctly from edge to edge. It's off from end to end. So I'm puzzled as to what happened.

And odd thing did occur after the flip though. It asked for the 1/8th in cutting bit first. I thought perhaps I could choose the carving bit and get it to do the carve first so I didn't have to change bits back and forth... Nope. So I chose the 1/8 cutting bit, loaded it, and then the machine did a little dance back and forth doing nothing in particular (measured bit etc.), then it stopped, and asked for the 1/16th carving bit.... ??? So I loaded the 1/16th bit, and it commenced second side carve. Well it was about 50% finished when I checked on it again. (I'd been monitoring the cable heat every so often, so I wasn't worried about it.) That's when I discovered the holes didn't line up and just stopped it.

I can't figure out what went wrong...

6112961130

[ladjr]

are there any instructions with the file.how did you aline the boards. I always tell it to center on the boards

[Underdog]

I told it to center the board too. It didn't ask on the second side...

As for instructions, the only ones I found were here where it was posted:
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?17634-Fletcher-s-DC-carve-it-yourself

[badbert]

It appears to be slipping in the X drive. I would check head pressure. If it is good, put three strips of masking tape on the side of the board that is against the sandpaper belts. Also, is that 3 1/2" on the end of the board. You have to leave 3 1/2" on each end of the board (I leave 4").

[bergerud]

It may be the mpc. If you select all on the front side, you will see a line (for a tab) way off to the right off of the board (~6.5 inches off the end). I do not know if this is the cause but it is not right.

[fwharris]

Post your mpc so we can verify your layout...

On asking for the 1/8 bit on the front side,,, whit multiple bit projects it will ask to to install all of the bits to be used. Starting with the last bit to be used and ending up with the first bit to be used.

[badbert]

After reviewing the layout I am going to take a wild Al Guess! You flipped the board the wrong way. You flipped it lengthwise. The Circles on one end threw the carve off center in what looks to be, the same amount your carve is off. The easiest way to remember which way to flip the board. Is to click back and forth on the front and back icons. And watch which way the board flips in designer.

[bergerud]

This is the original file (now resaved by 1.186) found on the Fletcher DC thread which I assume Underdog was using. The last "line 1" on the front side is a tab way off of the board. It may be that this offset tab line did not affect earlier versions of the software but now does. It seems that such an object could change where the software calculates the center of the side.

[Underdog]

Didn't flip the wrong way. I made sure of that. If you look closely at the pix you can see that too.

Thnks for the explanation about loading all the bits before the actual run. That eliminates that. I do wonder whether the machine retains length tho.

I'm leaning towards the stray line being the prob.

I'll take the whole mess to Capt Bruce today at th Woodworking Show and see what he makes of it.

[Underdog]

As far as head pressure goes, it was about 75lbs. With brand new rubber belts I'm not sure that they slipped but certainly not a whole 1-1/4".

[lynnfrwd]

I'm sure Capt Bruce would be happy to try to help, but having done so many of these shows...he will be too busy to dedicate the time.

Also nearly impossible to know for sure.


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[eelamb]

I posted the MPC on this thread http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?17634-Fletcher-s-DC-carve-it-yourself&p=200473#post200473

[bergerud]

As I said in the other thread, I experimented and I do not think the stray tab is the problem. Sorry. I am at a loss to explain how the pattern could have been so far off. (You did not answer yes to any scaling questions did you?)

I would say: delete the tab, save the file, reformat the card, upload the mpc again. Use the machine to first measure the board. If the board measures right, give it another try.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I am leaning toward board FLIPPED end for end rather than ROLLED... If you bring the project up in designer and then select the Back of board and watch the screen the ROLL will be very apparent.... The Flip is actually a ROLL.....

SO lets say I am WRONG on this.... I have been Wrong before..... Then the next FLAG that pops up for me is the "NEW RUBBER BELTS".... There has been a number of users reporting that they experienced X Axis "ISSUES" after changing to the Rubber Belts... A "FEW" Users reported back here that to solve the problem they made the mounting holes for the BRASS ROLLER OVAL so they could move the Brass Roller further away from the Rubber Belt.... I am betting that like a Radial Car Tire, the Rubber Belt BULGES at the roll over near the brass roller and TOUCHES the Brass Roller causing the ERROR in X... Only seen when the board is Cranked Down and then you really CAN'T see it...

And Lastly.... The Remaining Material on EACH SIDE of the top side Carve Region is VERY THIN and that raises a ALARM in my mind that IF the Head was NOT LEVEL and HIGH on the Brass Roller Side of the Board, then a RELEASE in PRESSURE due to the Head out of level it could shift....

The following were some WAG's.... Wild AL Guesses.... Remember I can only take the clues from the posts and give possible reasons for the problem and WHY I think it could have happened.... That is why they are called WILD....

AL who

[Underdog]

I repeat. I did not flip the board the wrong way. I "rolled" the board as people have repeatedly suggested I do. So I did.

I did NOT flip end for end.

So the problem is something else.

One thing we noticed at the show is that both carves, front and back, are not lined up in the correct position- ie. as if there were an extra 3-1/2" on each end of the project.

My money is still on the stray tab. I'll just have to format the card, delete the tab, and retry. This time I'll probably run a test before committing to good wood... Might even use a sled.

[liquidguitars]

Ues a slead and " place on corner" does the trick.

[Underdog]

Ok. So I'm making a sled 27" L x 5-1/2" x 3/4" thick. It's basically just the board I tried to use last time. Now I've got a 20" x 5-1/2" x 3/4" piece of Poplar that I want to put in the center of the sled, and then cap the ends with some scrap 3/4" wood.

How do I set up this MPC now? Make it 27" long and 1-1/2" thick, and just flip my Poplar board over for the second side? How do I get the circles to cut only 3/4" deep? And what do I do with the carving front/back that is "pierced"?

[lynnfrwd]

Don't make it to the sled size. Make it to the poplar size.


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[Underdog]

What about the thickness?

Is there a tutorial somewhere about using a sled?

[liquidguitars]

Don't make it to the sled size. Make it to the poplar size.

Or you can do it like i do and make the designer project sled size I go about 10" longer than your finished parts size, place 4" blocks on each end and use " keep the same" the trick is to add the 4" and a extra 1" for screws for a total of 10" on your designer project.... here is a excample:

61284

[lynnfrwd]

Brandon gave us a great workshop at last years conference on the different ways he uses them.

There is also a Tips n Tricks that Michael did under Support.


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[Underdog]

I remember someone posting a link for me, to double sided carves or the use of sleds, but I can't seem to find that post in any of my threads...

[bergerud]

What about the thickness?

Is there a tutorial somewhere about using a sled?

I do not understand why you think you need a sled to carve out the Fletcher dust hood. It looks like a simple, double sided carve on a single board. The only reason for a sled would be if the carve interfered with the machine or you do not want to waist the ends of the board. I think that the others that carved the dust hood just carved a single board.

I have altered the mpc to just carve the hood centered on a 22 inch board. Forget the ring for now. I suggest you try and carve the attached mpc on a a little longer and wider board. If you get that x shift again, then there must be a problem with your machine.

[lynnfrwd]

Tips & Tricks are at www.carvewright.com under SUPPORT > TUTORIALS > TIPS & TRICKS

To answer your question, you make the height of the project to not include the sled thickness.

[Underdog]

I do not understand why you think you need a sled to carve out the Fletcher dust hood. It looks like a simple, double sided carve on a single board. The only reason for a sled would be if the carve interfered with the machine or you do not want to waist the ends of the board. I think that the others that carved the dust hood just carved a single board.

I have altered the mpc to just carve the hood centered on a 22 inch board. Forget the ring for now. I suggest you try and carve the attached mpc on a a little longer and wider board. If you get that x shift again, then there must be a problem with your machine.

I want to use a sled so I don't waste so much material. I prepped the Beech board thinking it would carve out right. Turns out it messed up- basically trashed the whole board. So I'm using a shorter Poplar board on top of the original board. It's just material I have lying around, but I still don't want to waste it.

[bergerud]

Ok, but you will have to flip it over on top of the sled. It would be better to make a sled with two long side rails and two 4" ends that all surround the board. That way, you could flip the whole sled. Such a thing can be all taped together.

[eelamb]

You do not need the end boards. Just wrap tape around the ends of the rails for the sensor to see the end of the rails. I have done this many time.
Have made boxes dry fitted with corners mitered, then used rails to carve the sides.

Use at least 1" tape.

[Underdog]

Finally a successful carve.. sortof.

I did notice that last time I didn't have the board on the brass roller correctly because the tracks from the roller were just barely on the taped edge. I remedied that this time by ensuring that the board was fully up against the zero plate. This time the tracks from the roller were fully on the board. Could be why I had trouble last time.

There were three problems I noticed with this carve.

I formatted the card, deleted the stray tab (no other changes), and resaved this MPC to the card. Then I mounted the 20" poplar board on the 27" beech board, with 3-1/2" scraps taped on the ends. Then I loaded the whole mess in the machine, made sure to keep it under the rollers and centered. When it came time to touch on the sliding plate, it couldn't reach due to the height (1-1/2") and asked what thickness the board was. I told it .75". I hope that was right... Then it carved the bottoms side of the DC in the correct place (mostly). Flipped the board over on the sled, continued carving the top side.

Problem one:
When I loaded the 1/8" cutting bit, it said there was a depth mismatch of some sort, and asked if I wanted to continue, abort, or refind. It couldn't refind the depth, so I just continued. It started out about 3/8" above the board and only cut the circle (and the drill holes) about 1/4" or 3/8" into the board. Otherwise those operations looked correct.
Problem two:
When it was all done, I noticed that the carved areas front and back weren't quite lined up in the y axis. The edge that will be closest to the dust port/lid was really thin, while the edge closest to the chuck/inside of the machine was too thick. Looked like the matching was off by about 1/8". Not sure what that would be since the board was exactly 5-1/2" wide.
Problem three:
The only other problem I noticed was that the carve didn't pierce through all the way on one edge (about 1/16") but did on the other. I wonder if having the board fully on the brass roller jacked it up some?

Pictures will help. I'll post some later today..

[Underdog]

Do please look at my previous post to see the problems enumerated. I attach some pix to this one to give you a visual.

Here you can see the completed carving. You can't really see it, but the paths for the 1/8" cutting bit didn't fully pierce the board. It only went in about 1/4" - 3/8". Other than that, the 1/8" bit did what it should. I can't figure out why it wouldn't go the complete depth.
61360


And here you can see the back side of the carving. It did well except for the placement. This back side should be shifted toward the hose side so the back isn't so thin. I built it up with some Bondo putty and shaped it so it would be stronger. But next time I think I carve this, I'll shift this over a bit.
61363

Here again you can see that it didn't drill all the way through, and the hose hole isn't lined up exactly. I wasn't sure it was the MPC file or something I did wrong. I took a look at the first carve and noticed it did the same thing on it as well.
61362

As far as the carving not piercing all the way through on one edge, it could have been the slightly warped board. I'll have to do a few more carvings before I can really see whether it's my inexperience or whether something else is wrong. I did have presence of mind to stick that board down on the sled...

[lawrence]

I'm not 100% sure what happened, but I do know that the pattern is a solid one as posted... I used pine for mine so I really didn't bother with wasting 7 inches though... 2 sided carves with a sled are tricky at best and I really do recommend getting very familiar with your machine before doing it (I've only done 4 2-sided carves in sleds and my first 2 turned out badly)

It is nice to see you with your machine up and running though- sorry I haven't piped up until now but you've certainly got a lot of good advice from folks here already.

Lawrence

[dcalvin4]

My guess is about the miss alignment carving after the flip and we will have to have the masking tape king chime in [AL] dOES IT MAKE A DIFF. USING REGULAR OLD FASHIONED MASKING TAPE OR IS USING THE BLUE STUFF TOO SLIPPERY.......I have nothing concerning the holes
denny

[Underdog]

As the error in question was on the Y axis on both carves (sled and no-sled), I doubt very seriously whether the blue tape on the X axis had anything to do with it. It would be interesting to see what results someone else got from the posted MPC file.

As for the cutting bit operations, there was a "depth mismatch" error on the sled carve (I didn't let the first no-sled carved complete) for the 1/8" cutting bit, and the thickness was actually 1.5", but I keyed in .75" when prompted... I keep wondering what exactly happened there.

[bergerud]

If you have an error in the y centering, you may want to check into the y offset calibration. To test your y centering, simply drill a hole in the middle of a piece of scrap and measure how centered it is.

As for the depth thing, I am not sure what happened. When the machine bobs at the sliding plate to check the depth and cannot hit the plate, it will ask first if the sliding plate is set and then ask for the board thickness. I think it wants the total thickness and not the project thickness. At least that it what I give it in these situations. I figure it just wants to know why it could not touch the sliding plate. I have never given it a smaller number and seen the effect.

[Underdog]

How do you set up drilling a hole in the middle of the scrap? Create a project and output to the scrap? Or is there (I can't remember) a command on the machine?

[bergerud]

Simply drill a hole in the center of a board. Use, for example, the attached mpc with any old board (good edges though) more that 8 inches long and more than 3 inches wide. Choose to center on board. Measure how well the hole gets centered.

[lynnfrwd]

It could be that your squaring plate is off...?

Check this document for information on adjusting the square of your machine: http://www.carvewright.com/assets/service/Manuals/CO2_dragster_manual.pdf

C (http://www.carvewright.com/assets/service/Manuals/CO2_dragster_manual.pdf)onnie

[Digitalwoodshop]

With Blue Tape, it is possible that the machine thinks the inner edge of the blue tape is the edge of the board? Causing the error in Y.

You can make a project board and place a drill hole in the center of the board in Y and X like posted above. Then Copy the Hole. Then FLIP the board and select PASTE and NOT move the Hole. It should be in the Center Y and Center X.

Run the project. The back will drill first then flip the board and let it drill the front.

Should match as a hole in one.

Other things that can throw a wrench on the works is using Restraints.... As in the numbers are YELLOW. Right click on the numbers and select Remove restraint.

I always use a Drill Hole in the TOP of the board to aid in positioning the back side carve region.

AL

[Underdog]

Thanks Connie. I'll take a look at that. Could be the plate is off after X axis upgrade belt replacement, even though I made sure to keep the little indicator in the exact same place with the tape as advised....

[Underdog]

With Blue Tape, it is possible that the machine thinks the inner edge of the blue tape is the edge of the board? Causing the error in Y.

Wouldn't that mean it would be off by at least and inch (the width of the tape)? If so, it's not off by that much. It's only off by 1/8" or so...



You can make a project board and place a drill hole in the center of the board in Y and X like posted above. Then Copy the Hole. Then FLIP the board and select PASTE and NOT move the Hole. It should be in the Center Y and Center X.

Run the project. The back will drill first then flip the board and let it drill the front.

Should match as a hole in one.


That's definitely something I should draw up as a stock test and try.




Other things that can throw a wrench on the works is using Restraints.... As in the numbers are YELLOW. Right click on the numbers and select Remove restraint.

I always use a Drill Hole in the TOP of the board to aid in positioning the back side carve region.

AL

That's good to know. Lot's to learn here! Thanks all!

[bergerud]

Thanks Connie. I'll take a look at that. Could be the plate is off after X axis upgrade belt replacement, even though I made sure to keep the little indicator in the exact same place with the tape as advised....

This is easy to test. Just measure a fairly long, straight board. If the board stays up tight to the squaring plate during the whole measurement process, the plate must be square.

Edit: do not push the sliding plate up againest the board!!

[lynnfrwd]

Edit: do not push the sliding plate up againest the board!!

Yep, might loose some teeth that way on your x-drive gears.