ER20 Spindles need to know if theres any interest ...

[ktjwilliams]

Need to know if there is any interest ... A friend of mine is retiring, he owns and operates a NHRA racing shop. He is selling the contents of the shop.. So I asked if he had any ER20 collet holders in the sizes I used in the past to convert for the CW machine.. He has 10-15 and offered them to me for $ 30 each if I take em all .. So I thought I would get some if folks were interested and machine em on my metal lathe.. To make things easy for folks I would use his press and press on the big bottom bearing so you won't have to do that task and swapping spindles would be easy... Also I would have to purchase the wrenches for the Mini Nut to include with the spindles... The ER20 can handle bits from 1/16 upto 1/2 inch. Me, I just purchased 1/4, 3/16 and 1/2 collets.. I got my collets from SHARS.COM but cheaper ones are available on EBAY.. Never used the cheaper ebay ones so can't say how they function.. The shars ones are American and only run bout $6 last I bought em ... I figure by the time I do to machining, get the bearings and wrenches... The selling price would be in the $ 75 range... Just post here if interested so I can see how much interest there might be.. Cause like I said, I would have to buy em all and don't want couple hundred dollars of spindles sitting in my shop ...

[ktjwilliams]

For those who don't know what I'm talking bout ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3KgIAhHqso&feature=share&list=UURjTFRxA5-rw4BOaXd1aZMg

[lawrence]

just making sure I understand things... is this is a chuck replacement similar to the carvetight/rock? If so, it seems to be a cheaper price than either of those and several folks may be interested.

Lawrence

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Lawrence,, It's a spindle replacement... and you would just need to reuse your top bearing, so if you choose to swap out back and forth it's simple... But I never had a need to put back any of my other three spindles.. The ER20 can handle any sized bit from 1/16 to 1/2 shaft.. Added bonus of the ER is I can run projects on the best setting instead of Optimal and get very similar results with a big time saving...

[skeeterman]

My question is will it work for version c machine. I have version c with a rock chuck and the 1/8th cutoff bit has to be at a set length to us or get z axis stall ( very little leeway) and i canot use my 3/16 carving bit at all because of how long it is in the rock. have no prob with rock im my 2 A machines
steve

[bergerud]

The CT is only 1 inch long. That is, the bottom of the chuck is 1 inch below the bearing. This is almost 1/2" higher that the QC, Rock, and the ERs Kevin and I have been making. Any longer chuck, I presume, would have the same problem as the Rock does on the C machines if you use the CW bits with the CT adapters. With the ERs, however, you do not need the CT adapters and so can make the bits any length you want.

I have been looking into whether I could make an ER20M with the same "geometry" as the CT. I am really sold on the ER11M adapter idea and want to hold them with an ER20M. (It will not be easy. The ER20 collets themselves are over an inch long.)

[ktjwilliams]

What I did is put some shrink tubing on the shanks of my bits at the point I need them to be.. This keeps each bit at the exact same height every time I use it.. Also makes it easy when doin multi bit projects, the bits get set the exact same way for carving as they were for homing ...

[skeeterman]

I just hate that my c machine has limitations unlike my a machines, my 3/16 carving bit is in a pressed on sleeve so you are saying i can press 3/16 out of sleeve and use it with the ER spindle and i can adjust it to work with my c machine
steve

[bergerud]

I just hate that my c machine has limitations unlike my a machines, my 3/16 carving bit is in a pressed on sleeve so you are saying i can press 3/16 out of sleeve and use it with the ER spindle and i can adjust it to work with my c machine
steve

Yes, that is true. Without the pressed on adapter, you can adjust the bit to any length you wish.

Why do you not use a 3/16 or 1/4 shank 3/16 ball nose bit with a Rock sleeve?

[skeeterman]

With the c version the 3/16 bit sticks down to low with the pressed on sleeve

[bergerud]

I have decided to follow in Kevin's footsteps and go with the larger ER20M spindle. I always thought the ER20 was too big for the CW machine and have been happy with the smaller ER spindles. With the new ER11M adapter idea for the CT, my ideas have changed.

I was excited to set up a system using ER11M adapters and the CT. With bits already set in their own adapters, bit changes in multiple bit projects are as quick and easy as the old QC system was. I am not, however, impressed with the side clamping design. Such a chuck, no matter how well made, can only really hold a single sized shank accurately. The shank has to be the same diameter as the bore or there will be run out and balance problems. (The run out will be at least as much as the difference between the bore and the shank diameter.) The ER system, on the other hand, is not sensitive to variations in shank diameter. The collets adjust to center the shank and the system is always balanced.

So, I have designed an ER20M spindle which has the same geometry as the CT. Below are pictures of the first prototype.

I have sent the drawings to the Chinese manufacturer who is making the ER11M adapters to see how much he could make them for.

EDIT: He has replied with an estimate of $27 each.

I do not know if anyone would be interested in such a system. (A locking button (or just a hole for locking pin) on the truck is really essential for multi bit projects.)

[ktjwilliams]

Looks good Dan .... Keep up the good work ...

Kevin

[bergerud]

I got my first sample ER20M spindle from China. I am really impressed. It has a few trivial issues; the holes are small and the length is off by a millimeter but all in all, it is a good first pass. I had to promise I would buy 10 to get them to make this prototype. It will take a while to get these made, I am sure. (I am focusing on the ER11M adapters first.) I do not expect these to sell like the ER11M adapters, so I will buy the 10 and slowly send them out to members who want them at cost. Stay tuned.

[henry1]

I got my first sample ER20M spindle from China. I am really impressed. It has a few trivial issues; the holes are small and the length is off by a millimeter but all in all, it is a good first pass. I had to promise I would buy 10 to get them to make this prototype. It will take a while to get these made, I am sure. (I am focusing on the ER11M adapters first.) I do not expect these to sell like the ER11M adapters, so I will buy the 10 and slowly send them out to members who want them at cost. Stay tuned.
Keep me posted really interested just like your shoe for vacuum,, and the bearing on this do you use the one you take out

[RogerB]

Please put my Name on your list.

[bergerud]

Keep me posted really interested just like your shoe for vacuum,, and the bearing on this do you use the one you take out

The original lower bearing (NSK 6002VV) on the CW spindles has too small an I.D. (only 15 mm). A new lower bearing (6802) with 20 mm I.D. is needed. It has more, smaller balls which is apparently even better for high rpm. I have found a source for a fairly low cost ceramic version of the bearing. The top bearing is the same as the CW bearing.

[henry1]

The original lower bearing (NSK 6002VV) on the CW spindles has too small an I.D. (only 15 mm). A new lower bearing (6802) with 20 mm I.D. is needed. It has more, smaller balls which is apparently even better for high rpm. I have found a source for a fairly low cost ceramic version of the bearing. The top bearing is the same as the CW bearing.
the top bearing and were would get one do you a source for that one also

[bergerud]

The top bearing is a standard bearing (NSK 6000 DU) one can get anywhere. (The same as in the cut motor.)

[ktjwilliams]

Put me in Spanky.... I'll take one off your hands

[farmer]

Keep me informed I would be interested as well.

[bergerud]

Well, the spindles are finally made. I have paid him for 10 as I promised and so I should have them within a couple of weeks. My plan is to provide the spindles with nut, special wrench, and lower bearing. (The collets will have to be bought separately.) My cost will be about $33 each set and so I think we are talking around $40 including shipping. I have 7 people already on my list.

Let me remind anyone who is interested just what this spindle system is. The ER collet system is the CNC industry standard. The spindle is better balanced and runs truer than any other CW spindle system. The ER20 allows one to hold bit shanks of any size up to 1/2 inch for which you buy the collets. (I suggest buying 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, and 1/2 inch collets. Another $20 - $40.) The down side is that it is harder to switch out bits in multi bit projects. The QC and the CT have the advantage that bits with adapters switch in and out quickly and easily. With the ER system, one is stuck either using two wrenches or making some kind of spindle lock. I have designed the ER spindle with holes in it for the purpose of a spindle lock. One can make a simple spindle lock by drilling a 1/4 inch hole in the truck and then using a 1/4 inch pin. One has also to use stop collars when switching bits and even worse, switch collets if the shank diameters are different. The ER11 adapters are a solution to this problem.

The ideal system for multi bit projects is to have an ER20 spindle with a lock button and a high quality 1/2" collet which stays in the spindle. Bits are installed in their own ER11 adapters which are switched in and out with the bits.

I would suggest, for the initial use, that one simply uses the second wrench method. (It needs to be a thin 21 mm wrench. One can file a cheap 13/16" wrench to a snug fit.)

Installing the spindle is not as hard as one might think. I believe it is easier than switching a stuck QC. Drilling the lock hole, however, would require removing the z truck and using a drill press. I will come up with some pictures and instructions.

[ktjwilliams]

YEAH !!!!!!!! Dan if U don't get enough takers,, I'll take an extra one off UR hands ... Think U should charge a little more for UR troubles ...
Thx For the effort to do this ... Kevin :mrgreen:

[aokweld101]

bergerud, I have a question, when using the ER-11 is there a set length on how far the bit sticks out when running the ER-11 I had the machine telling me that the bit depth was wrong and to refined.

[bergerud]

bergerud, I have a question, when using the ER-11 is there a set length on how far the bit sticks out when running the ER-11 I had the machine telling me that the bit depth was wrong and to refined.

All you have to do is set the bit in the ER11 adapter so it ends up close to the length the CW bit would be. The machine cannot tell the difference if you match the length.

[chief2007]

Put me on the list. I have a truck with a CT that has a bad lower bearing. This looks to be a good answer for it

[bergerud]

Put me on the list. I have a truck with a CT that has a bad lower bearing. This looks to be a good answer for it

Ok. (That is the first I have heard of the lower bearing going.)

[RogerB]

bergerud Please put me down for one just PM me and let me know. Thanks Henry for the phone call.

[ktjwilliams]

I been using the ER11 and the ER20's without a problem... For purposes of homing and checking the bit what I did was used a piece of shrink tubing on the shanks of the bit... This way I always have the depth the same for homing and then for the second check when it's gonna carve, cut, rout ...


bergerud, I have a question, when using the ER-11 is there a set length on how far the bit sticks out when running the ER-11 I had the machine telling me that the bit depth was wrong and to refined.

[bergerud]

The 10 ER20M spindles have finally arrived. (The reason they took so long is that there was a mix up and they were tracked to Australia!) Anyway, I have them now and will check each one of them out. The lock holes were not drilled to 1/4" as I asked for twice but all else looks good so far. (I will have to drill the holes.) I will PM the ten people on my list when I have a chance to finish testing them.

[ktjwilliams]

All right Dan,,,, Thought they forgot about ya ... Good News !!!!

[bergerud]

I have sent out the spindles and should now try and explain how to install them.

One can switch spindles with the truck removed from the machine or one can switch spindles while the truck stays in the machine. (If you are experienced with taking the truck on and off the machine and have a large vise, it is probably a better way to do it. If you want to drill a lock pin hole in the truck, you will have to take the truck out of the machine.) I have done it both ways. I will stick to explaining how to do it with the truck in the machine.

1. Remove the Old Spindle

Remove the flex from the top hat and remove the top hat. With clip pliers, remove the circlip from the top of the spindle shaft. (Careful not to loose it!) Now one can try and punch the spindle out from above using a long brass or hardwood punch. This requires blocking the truck below with wood blocks. Clamp the machine down on a "base" block and size two small blocks to fit on the base block and under each side of the truck. It is important that the blocks support the truck but do not obstruct the lower bearing from coming out. The lower bearing is press fit onto the spindle and will come out with the spindle. Now try and punch the spindle down trough the top bearing. It is only the fit in the top bearing that holds the spindle. The bottom bearing in a tolerance ring around it comes out easily. How hard you have to tap on the spindle to punch it out of the top bearing may be different for different machines. Some easy, some harder. If you pound too hard, you will damage the top bearing. (Not a real problem since it is a standard 6000DU and is easily replaced.) It is up to you how far you are comfortable going. If it seems really tight and you fear damaging other parts, you can make a spindle puller. See the thread:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18052-Spindle-Puller&p=152135#post152135

(Before installing the ER20M spindle, you should work on making the second wrench. It will be important to have the wrench fit snugly on the spindle flats for two reasons: the wrench flats are small and it will be more convenient if the wrench "hangs" on by itself. The wrench flats are 21 mm which is just a little larger than 13/16". You need to cannibalize an old 13/16" wrench. A cheap, thin stamped wrench which you can file to a nice fit would be good. Note that the lower bearing on the ER20M spindle goes up inside the truck a couple of mm so the wrench must be thin.)

2. Installing the ER20M Spindle

Raise the truck up, insert the lower tolerance ring (if you took it out) and then insert the spindle from below. You should be able to align the top of the shaft into the top bearing before you push in the bottom bearing. Push it up as far as you can by hand. Put a block of wood under the spindle. Now push the truck down until the spindle hits the block. By pressing straight down from above on the truck, you should be able to finish pushing in the bottom bearing. The top bearing may have lifted up. Use an old bearing or washer and socket on top and a piece of wood to gently push or tap the bearing back down. Before the bearing passes the circlip slot, put on the circlip. Continue pushing the circlip down until the clip snaps into the slot. Make sure that the circlip is in the slot all around. It is important not to push the bearing too far. The wave washer under the top bearing is supposed to keep the bearings pressed "apart" with a slight side load. Now test the spindle to see how easily it turns. If it seems too tight, give it some gentle taps from above and below to "straighten" out the bearings in the tolerance rings. Assuming that the spindle spins ok, put the top hat on and flex back in. (Always test things as you go. For example, test that the flex end fits all the way into the spindle before putting on the top hat.)

I would now run the cut motor test for a few minutes just to see how it all sounds and feels. There will be a "break in" period where bearings will get hot. I would do some short, shallow carve projects and then recheck things.

3. Potential Problems

I worry about the spindle bearings being too tight. I had to turn another 1/2 mm off of the lower bearing shoulder because the spindles were too short. There was no room for the wave washer under the top bearing. It is nice to have this length close, but not too close. If you had trouble getting the clip into the slot and the bearings are too tight, you may have to take it apart and leave out the wave washer. It is close and I worry since I do not know how much the different truck castings might vary.

I worry about the lower bearing itself. I have been running a cheap one for awhile and have had no problems. I have some ceramic ones to try also. These bearings are not as beefy as the original CW bearing and so this is part of the experiment. Will a standard bearing work or will we need expensive, high tolerance or even ceramic bearings?

4. The Lock Pin

If you have a few machines and can just use the ER20M spindle for single bit projects, you may not want to bother with drilling a lock pin hole. (Drilling a lock pin hole may someday cost you that $40 core rebate!) If, on the other hand, you only have one machine and do mult-bit projects, you will want the lock pin hole. I suggest you test the spindle first and see how you like it. After you are hooked on it, think about the lock pin hole. Drilling the lock pin hole requires taking the truck out of the machine and ideally using a drill press. With the spindle installed, one can drill through the square hole in the back of the truck, through the holes in the spindle and on through the front of the truck. The truck has to be supported by blocks on the drill press table to keep it square. (After you are really hooked, you will want a lock button.)

OK, good luck. Let us know how it goes. Any extra tips welcome.

[ktjwilliams]

Got it today .... Looks good Dan and Thx for your work in getting these things .... I'll take another for my other machine when you get more or if you have any left !!!!
Again Dan Thx for going the extra mile on this,,,, Really appreciate it ...

Kevin

[zan29]

I'm I too late to get one Bergerud???

[bergerud]

I'm I too late to get one Bergerud???

I am not sure yet. I have not heard from everyone on my list.

[unitedcases]

Excellent instructions dan. Done in under 20 minutes. Forgot to pre order the collets though so waiting on those. Will post results once I can give it a go.

[bergerud]

Wow, I hope everyone else finds it as easy. That is great.

[unitedcases]

I am kicking myself for not ordering the collets already.

[ktjwilliams]

Took 10 minutes to install and Drill 1/4 hole for one hand bit changes ... Actually drilled it with a hand drill holding it in my lap ... The 1/4 bit went easily into the square hole in the truck then slid through 1/4 hole in spindle while running drill at very slow speed... after that drilled away through the front of truck... Gave it a run and all worked well.. The only problem was the wrench... When I installed a larger 1/2 bit the wrench didn't have enough clearance to get on the M nut .. I had a single pin wrench on hand from an old ER20 M nut which enabled me to tighten it... I think grinding off the last pin on the left side of the wrench would resolve this ... I'll let ya's know after I do it...

[bergerud]

Good to hear as well. I did not expect you to have any problems. Been there, done that! It is true the wrench can be annoying with a big bit close to the nut. Also remember that this chuck is higher than the ones we have made and so the bit has to stick out further. (This chuck is up 1/2" up above the board like the CT.) There are a few different types of wrenches. The flat type with the tines pointing inward might be better.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0T-fcNAmN2iQF9oOu2zo9kxucDD_pdpwrhlLOXtGB6Wcmqt8

[ekimnamyr]

Bergerud, I know its a little late but do you think that you could pull another one of those spindles out of your magic hat. Just read about them a couple of days ago. They sound like a great upgrade. Thanks,

[bergerud]

I only had 10. I will add you to my list. There may be one left or I may get more.

[ekimnamyr]

Thanks much, I appreciate that. Mike;

[ktjwilliams]

OK Dan, I'm not seeing much on the feed back on the spindle .. I had mine installed and running in bout ten minutes ... Since I have been using these for some time now, I already had the collets maybe that's what folks are waiting for ... In any case this one runs great and I was saved the trouble of making it myself like we have done in the past.. I have one more machine to add this to and all my machines will have either an ER 11 or ER 20 ... If you get more I am interested ... Like I said I have one more machine that I would convert over... And Thx much for doing this for us ... These things are great !!!!

[bergerud]

Has anyone else had a chance to install and test the spindle? I expect reports! Are you all just waiting for collets?

[unitedcases]

Waiting for collets here. The user tests were promising. Sounded good.

[earlyrider]

Have collets in hand now. Just need to put z truck in working machine. Should have something to report this next week.

[RogerB]

Sorry just have not had time. Will try soon I hope.

[blhutchens]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1pcs-1-2-ER11-28L-Straight-collet-chuck-and-3pcs-ER11-collet-1-4-3-16and1-8-/281142871145?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item41756bc469

will this work for keeping CT in tact and just using it for small bits.

[chief2007]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1pcs-1-2-ER11-28L-Straight-collet-chuck-and-3pcs-ER11-collet-1-4-3-16and1-8-/281142871145?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item41756bc469

will this work for keeping CT in tact and just using it for small bits.

Yes that is what I use with my Carvetight and it works great. I purchased several so I do not have to change the bits during use. Have the preloaded before the project starts. No problems at all and I have at least 150 carvings hours using them.

[blhutchens]

thanks, I thought they would work just wanted to make sure before I bought em.

[unitedcases]

Carving has commenced. Things to note so far...cut motor doesnt sound nearly as labored as before and the machine seems a touch quieter. Loading a bit was very simple. The hole in the spindle really does make it easy. Very impressed so far.

[unitedcases]

My first carve with the er20 spindle has finished. Very clean and very impressed. To me the machine was quieter and didnt seem to labor at all. To those that have bought one get it on there and use it. You will be truly impressed. I acquired the actual er20 collets to use with it and they were well worth the investment. Thanks Dan.

[bergerud]

My first carve with the er20 spindle has finished. Very clean and very impressed. To me the machine was quieter and didnt seem to labor at all. To those that have bought one get it on there and use it. You will be truly impressed. I acquired the actual er20 collets to use with it and they were well worth the investment. Thanks Dan.

That is great. Thanks for the update. Keep us posted of any developments. Ok, where are the rest of you guys?

[unitedcases]

I plan on keeping it as my primary carver for the week. I will add I was able to stand over the machine while it was running and didnt have to scream too bad to hear myself.

[unitedcases]

Ok. Another update. And I think I am the only one using this new chuck. I just did a 10hr carve and I dont think I am going to have to put more than 5 minutes into it for sanding. You guys really need to take the 5 minutes to install this chuck. I was able to hold a conversation with my 13yr old over while it was running. And you know how hard it is to keep a teenagers attention.

[henry1]

That is nice to hear can wait to put mine on now

[blhutchens]

anyone considering putting these things together as a kit with the bearing, collets, wrenches and installation instructions? I would definitely buy two. i don't have a machine shop so it would be hard for me to buy em and turn em. Also wondering about the square hole in top is that a hand file job.

[bergerud]

anyone considering putting these things together as a kit with the bearing, collets, wrenches and installation instructions? I would definitely buy two. i don't have a machine shop so it would be hard for me to buy em and turn em. Also wondering about the square hole in top is that a hand file job.

These are already made. I had to tweak them a little before I sent them out as the first ten were not quite right. I am trying to get the Chinese manufacturer to send me some more which I hope will be right.

I am also waiting for more reports to come in from the ones I sent out.

(All the prototypes Kevin and I made did require hand filing the square hole by hand.)

[earlyrider]

Mine works fine, although a little noisier than the original. The spindle slid almost too easily into the top bearing (not quite the press fit as the original). I haven't tried replacing the top bearing yet. I had thought of a little light knurling of the spindle if the new bearing isn't a little tighter. Don't know if it really is a problem, as the final product turned out with good detail.

[bergerud]

It is strange to me that you find it noisy. These things are very well balanced and quiet. I wonder if something is wrong? Do you feel any play in the bearings? There is supposed to be side load created by the wave washer in the top to take out the slack between the bearings. Maybe a bearing is bad.

Maybe a little blue loctite would snug up that top bearing.

[earlyrider]

Yeah, I'll try a new bearing first, then if necessary, try the loctite.

[ekimnamyr]

Loc Tite Has a product called retaining compound for that purpose, It's number is 609, It says it will take up to .015 slop . I have used it on other applications with great sucess. I am using it currently on the Y axis motor gearbox assy, Bearings. Has not been done long enough to give a success or failure results report.
Just an FYI.

[unitedcases]

Loc Tite Has a product called retaining compound for that purpose, It's number is 609, It says it will take up to .015 slop . I have used it on other applications with great sucess. I am using it currently on the Y axis motor gearbox assy, Bearings. Has not been done long enough to give a success or failure results report.
Just an FYI.

Forgive me. I know you said on the bearings. Where exactly. Between the y shaft and the bearings?

[ekimnamyr]

Between shaft and inner race of bearing, It makes a bond so that the bearing will do its job and turn ,thus preventing shaft from turning insidethe race causing shaft to wear undersize

[bergerud]

unitedcases has reported the lower bearing on his ER20 spindle went out after 60 hours. I do not know if it was just a cheap bad bearing, if the tolerance ring fell out, or what. I hope it is not an indication that the lower bearing is not big enough. We may have to use higher quality bearings, maybe even ceramic bearings. I have put over 100 hours on my bearing which was the cheapest (for the sake of testing) bearing I could find ($1). Test for play once in awhile. Remember, this is an experiment, keep your eye on the bearing.

If you think the bearing is loosing its grease and heating up, you may want to change it out for one like:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7500

Note also the $25 ceramic one.

(I bought the $51 ceramic one for my machine when all the testing is done.)

[unitedcases]

To add to what Dan was saying I do mostly 8+ hour carves. It is possible it got too hot. I am going to buy the next stage up bearing, quality wise and see how that works. I will note the time as well. I don't know how close that 60 hours is, if anything it is a low estimate.

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Dan ,,, just FYI..,,, My truck has been getting pretty hot ... I noticed on my last carve that when I went to change the cutter, I couldn't even touch it ... But didn't make any noise or have any play ... I always keep a variety of bearings around so I'm just gonna change it out ....

[bergerud]

I think the bearings I sent out are no good. They have 13 balls instead of 14 and, I think, poor seals and grease. (They we advertised as ABEC-3 motor quality.) I was going to send out extra 6804ZZ bearings when I sent out the spindles just in case. I did for Henry and Roger. Everyone should switch out the bearing to a 6804ZZ:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7500

(OMG, a recall notice!)

[henry1]

I think the bearings I sent out are no good. They have 13 balls instead of 14 and, I think, poor seals and grease. (They we advertised as ABEC-3 motor quality.) I was going to send out extra 6804ZZ bearings when I sent out the spindles just in case. I did for Henry and Roger. Everyone should switch out the bearing to a 6804ZZ:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7500

(OMG, a recall notice!)
Do I have to order some bearing , and change my bearing out Bergerud or meant you already sent one to me and roger

[ktjwilliams]

What about these Dan ... I've used this places bearings in the past and they seem pretty good... Plus there like $ 6.00 cheaper ... I usually order 10 cause I use them for other things... So you get a bigger discount on 10 or more ...
http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-1780/6804-dsh-2RS-6804-dsh-ZZ-Radial-Ball/Detail

[aokweld101]

The 6804zz, is that the existing bearing or the bigger bearing for your modifitions ? (I also received today the new cutting bits today that you suggested) thanks a bunch...

[bergerud]

The 6804zz, is that the existing bearing or the bigger bearing for your modifitions ? (I also received today the new cutting bits today that you suggested) thanks a bunch...

It is a smaller bearing (smaller balls) than the original CW bearing. The 6804zz is the same size as the one I sent out with the spindle. It seems that one I sent out cannot handle the rpm. I think the grease gets out past the cheap seals. The 6804zz is rated for 22,000 rpm.

[bergerud]

I have done some tests on the bearings that I sent out with the spindles and have found out that, at high rpm, the seals spin. The seals do not fit tight enough and get dragged by the viscus grease. The more they spin, the looser they get. Either the seal eventually falls off or becomes so loose that the grease all leaks out.

For those that have these bearings, you need to replace them with a higher quality bearing. The 6802ZZ referred to in the previous posts should be fine.

[ktjwilliams]

6802zz or 6804zz


I have done some tests on the bearings that I sent out with the spindles and have found out that, at high rpm, the seals spin. The seals do not fit tight enough and get dragged by the viscus grease. The more they spin, the looser they get. Either the seal eventually falls off or becomes so loose that the grease all leaks out.

For those that have these bearings, you need to replace them with a higher quality bearing. The 6802ZZ referred to in the previous posts should be fine.

[unitedcases]

Going to jump in blindly. I bought the 25 dollar one from vxb and it seems to be working well. Did a 9.5 hr carve with it the other day and it didn't get too warm. I want to say 6804zz. If that's the 25 dollar one.

[bergerud]

6802zz or 6804zz

Right you are: 6804ZZ.


Going to jump in blindly. I bought the 25 dollar one from vxb and it seems to be working well. Did a 9.5 hr carve with it the other day and it didn't get too warm. I want to say 6804zz. If that's the 25 dollar one.

The $10 one at VXB is the 6804ZZ. You bought a more expensive $25 ceramic one.

[FWMiller]

Are you going to have any more of these spindles manufactured? I've been thinking of trying one if you do.

[bergerud]

I just got five more. All the alterations I hoped for were not made, so just like the first ten, I have to tune them up. They are mostly spoken for already but I could send a few out to serious testers. I regard this operation as more of an experiment than me providing a product. I have had very little feedback from all the ones I sent out before. It seems as if only two members installed them. My hopes that forum members and eventually LHR might realize the benefits of these things is a little low right now. (In my dreams, the CX machine should have been equipped with an ER20M spindle.)

[FWMiller]

If you end up having an extra I'd love to test one and share my results. I've used the ER11 in my carvetight with ok results but the bits don't seem to center well. When I put in a 1/16th bit I get a cut path that is about 3/32 wide.

[bergerud]

Try a small piece of Scotch tape on the side of the adapter opposite the CT paw. The CT paw pushes the adapter (er11 or CT) to the side converting any clearance into run out.

[ktjwilliams]

Dan,,,, I'm surprised to hear that the feedback has been limited ... And yes LHR should added this far superior ER spindle ...

[FWMiller]

The gap is to small to fit anything. It fits just about as snug as the carvetight adaptor. That's why I'm surprised to see so much run out. I do notice that on some bits it's hard to get the threads to grab on the adaptor as the collet fit is almost to tight. I'm wondering if the collets are the problem. Same ones that came with the adaptors.

[bergerud]

Ok, that does not sound right. Could it be that you are not using the collets correctly? The collet has to fit into the nut before you put the bit into the collet. Then the nut, collet, and bit then thread onto the adapter. (The slot in the collet has to first fit into the eccentric circle in the nut.)

[FWMiller]

Ha!! You sure do have a knack for identifying operator failure. Now I really feel like a DA. Amazing how well things work when you do it right. Thanks.

[ktjwilliams]

Ah !!!!! Success !!!!

[55president]

Are there any more of the ER20M spindles? would like to get one......

[bergerud]

Are there any more of the ER20M spindles? would like to get one......

Sorry I had not responded yet to your email. I could send out one more. I can only send the spindle and nut. I am out of wrenches and the bearings were not good enough. I am disillusioned with the operation. Of all the spindles I sent out, only ktjwilliams and unitedcases gave me any feedback. The idea was to produce some unbiased forum feedback on whether or not these spindles were the way to go. Without the feedback, my motivation has waned. Unlike the ER11M adapters which were made right and sold by the manufacturer, the ER20M spindles were not quite right. I have to fix them and mail them out myself.

The cheapest bearing you should use is: (I like the ceramic bearings.)

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7500

Below is a list of the places I have bought collets from. From cheapest to most expensive. I would buy the cheap ones. (I have not noticed any real difference between the cheap and expensive. I switch them around and the run out does not seem to change.)

http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-309/FULL-ER20-COLLET-SET/Detail
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-349/ER20-SAFETY-WRENCH-SPANNER/Detail

http://www.shars.com/product_categor...h/?search=er20

http://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-C..._62/index.html

(The instructions are in post 31 of this thread.)

[unitedcases]

Haven't spoke of the er20s for a while, my apologies. Currently sitting in the room with 3 machines going, all with er20s, and the noise difference is incredible. No whining out of the machines at all. The only time they get a little loud is when I am actually cutting something. Plus I grabbed enough er11 kits to outfit them all so I don't have to switch collets in the er20s at all. Those of you that haven't tried yours yet should. And those of you that have decided against using it let me know, I will buy them from you. If you want to sell them that is.

[55president]

Dan - when you say you were disappointed with the bearings, are you saying they can't handle the job or they are not heavy duty enough or they will wear out quickly?

[unitedcases]

Dan - when you say you were appointed with the bearings, are you saying they can't handle the job or they are not heavy duty enough or they will wear out quickly?
from my standpoint, just jumping in here, the bearings couldn't handle the long carves. much of what I do is 10 to 12 hours and we ended up using the ZZ type bearings. they seem to be holding up well.

[55president]

Just ordered a ceramic bearing for this application. I also do long carves sometimes running 24 hrs. I guess tiime will tell....

FXP

[unitedcases]

Just ordered a ceramic bearing for this application. I also do long carves sometimes running 24 hrs. I guess tiime will tell....

FXP
wow. what are you carving?

[bergerud]

Dan - when you say you were appointed with the bearings, are you saying they can't handle the job or they are not heavy duty enough or they will wear out quickly?

I was disappointed with the original bearings I sent out with the spindles. I noticed the rubber seals starting to spin with the bearing cage at high rpm. The seals ended up failing for a few people. After that I recommend only using bearings that were explicitly rated for 20,000 rpm. It may very well be that the lower bearing is a weak point in the design. The jury is still out on that. Cheap bearings are certainly not good enough. The grease goes and then the bearing. I believe that zz bearings in the link (as unitedcases says) are good enough. Time will tell whether we need the expensive ceramic bearings.

I am running a cheap zz and a ceramic in my machines but I do not do the long grueling carves that unitedcases does.

Also, in one of my machines, I "glued" in the tolerance ring with Loctite. One day I caught it working its way out. They do come out with other spindles as well so I do not know if it means anything. Just as well glue them in.

[55president]

unitedcases -- I carve blocks for wood block printing, but they are actually a vinyl surface. I rubber cement composition vinyl tile to a 1/2 piece of plywood and
carve out long sections then glue them together. then epoxy hte small cracks and hand carve the joints so it becomes a uniform piece.

I'll post a couple of pics of some of the larger blocks.


I carved a long block the other day that was a 24 hr carve -- I'll post a pic.

[unitedcases]

unitedcases -- I carve blocks for wood block printing, but they are actually a vinyl surface. I rubber cement composition vinyl tile to a 1/2 piece of plywood and
carve out long sections then glue them together. then epoxy hte small cracks and hand carve the joints so it becomes a uniform piece.

I'll post a couple of pics of some of the larger blocks.


I carved a long block the other day that was a 24 hr carve -- I'll post a pic.
Please do.

[ktjwilliams]

Hey All .... Wouldn't trade my ER20 for anything else ... As noted the original bearings weren't up to snuff,, but since replacing em no problem.. As united said this noise level is so much quieter then any other system out there.. The way they run and carve is fantastic,,,, I can us normal setting and get a nice carve .. There is no need for me to use Optimum at all anymore ...

Kevin

[rjgreen761]

I am waiting for the new bearing to arrive. As soon as it shows up I am going to install this. I am looking forward to better and quieter carves. I do shorter carves, so far nothing over 3 hours.

[unitedcases]

Hey All .... Wouldn't trade my ER20 for anything else ... As noted the original bearings weren't up to snuff,, but since replacing em no problem.. As united said this noise level is so much quieter then any other system out there.. The way they run and carve is fantastic,,,, I can us normal setting and get a nice carve .. There is no need for me to use Optimum at all anymore ...

Kevin
Are you I sing normal kevin, or best?

[ktjwilliams]

I use normal most of the time even with my 3/16ths carving bit ...



Are you I sing normal kevin, or best?

[unitedcases]

I have still stuck to best, but have noticed that projects are a lot easier to clean up.

[rjgreen761]

When I get this installed I will be using the standard carving and cutting bit. Can anyone tell me how much of the bit should stick out of the collet? I have the QC now and I measured about 3" from the tip of the bit to the bottom of the truck. That is the distance I planned on using unless someone has a better Idea.

[unitedcases]

When I get this installed I will be using the standard carving and cutting bit. Can anyone tell me how much of the bit should stick out of the collet? I have the QC now and I measured about 3" from the tip of the bit to the bottom of the truck. That is the distance I planned on using unless someone has a better Idea.
The overall spindle is shorter so you need not worry about it being too long. I usually just put the bits in right up to where the threads start.

[bergerud]

The ER20M spindles have about the same geometry as the CT. It is up about 1/2" higher. The bit lengths are not crucial. If you look at the CT bits with their adapters, they are quite long, but as unitedcases says, you can put them in shorter. I think that as long as the truck does not bottom out before the bit gets to the bottom of the carve, you are good.

If you are going to use the deep bits, check that they clear the bit plate. They should but it is worth a check because it is close.

[rjgreen761]

The ER20M spindles have about the same geometry as the CT. It is up about 1/2" higher. The bit lengths are not crucial. If you look at the CT bits with their adapters, they are quite long, but as unitedcases says, you can put them in shorter. I think that as long as the truck does not bottom out before the bit gets to the bottom of the carve, you are good.

If you are going to use the deep bits, check that they clear the bit plate. They should but it is worth a check because it is close.

OK Thanks, I am looking forward to this. It will be nice to rest my hand on the machine and not feel a vibration buzz.

[edsingletary]

What bearings are we discussing here. Where do order these super bearings and for what part of the machine will it go. Actually changing things in motors worries me, I never did it, guess I need to get familiar.

[bergerud]

What bearings are we discussing here. Where do order these super bearings and for what part of the machine will it go. Actually changing things in motors worries me, I never did it, guess I need to get familiar.

We are talking here about the lower spindle bearing in the truck being used for a custom ER20M spindle. This bearing has a larger ID and smaller balls than the standard CW bearing and so has to be of high quality. There are only a few members experimenting with this custom spindle.

[edsingletary]

So if I understand correctly I would need a different spindle as well. I'm not familiar with this aftermarket stuff. I will wait till something is needed. Does anyone know about how long this newest machine goes before any type of breakdown. I keep everything very well lubed as out per video and clean it after each project. I use a dust collection as I bought from CW. I have 23 hours so far. Should I expect a problem this soon. It seems so delicate almost to the point of absurdity. Maybe I'm just reading to much into all the posts here.

[FWMiller]

How long before it breaks down? That's a loaded question. How lucky do you feel?

[edsingletary]

It just seems to me someone builds a machine that carves wood and runs for an hour or 2 it should have some ruggedness built it. For what I paid and continue to pay it should go a while before it crisis. The warranty is in 100 hour increments so I figure just past 100 something is bound to fail. CR cornered the market on the software stuff. Always buying a license for something. Uhg.

[55president]

United Cases -- here are a few images of blocks of the longer carves I've done 69994699956999669997. THe eagle is about 54 inches tall -- 3 blocks 54x14 inches glued together, the moon is cut on my other cnc, it's 36x36, the paprus block is a little taller 60 x 42 inches. The eagle block took about 14 hrs per block so 42 hrs, plus guleing it together and proofing and tweaking it to look right.

I have some 8 foot blocks that did take 24 hrs , but they are hard to photograph as there is no contrast in the relief.

[CNC Carver]

55president
Can you show an example of the tile you cement on the plywood? Why wife has a scrapbook store and this would be a great way to make personal stamps for people. those block printing turned out wonderful
Jeff

[55president]

Jeff -- it's just the armstrong vinyl kitchen tile ( 12"x12") you can get at home depot and Lowes. My criteria for block material is that it has to be readily accessable and cheap! Glue it down on plywood with rubber cement , not the waterbase kind, the nasty acetone kind. Key word when using this stuff - get adequate ventilation.

Tile -- Make sure you get the armstrong variety as it's close to 1/8 or .125 in, carve down .08 in to get your relief. I'll post a picture of all the stuff when I get to the studio.

Francis

[CNC Carver]

Thanks Francis, I'll need to give this a try.

[ktjwilliams]

To make sure I get things right on a multi bit carves, I use a piece of heat shrink tubing on the bits to insure they go in the same depth every time.




70016

[kcc2012]

I would like to get one of these spindle systems you have created if it's not to late to get put on the list.

Ambrose

[unitedcases]

To make sure I get things right on a multi bit carves, I use a piece of heat shrink tubing on the bits to insure they go in the same depth every time.




70016
Another option Kevin is the er11 kits. Once you have the bit set in them they are spot on. I ended up with six sets to accomplish 3 machines running full blast.

[bergerud]

I would like to get one of these spindle systems you have created if it's not to late to get put on the list.

Ambrose

I am sorry but I just sent out my spare and am out. It is possible that I could get more from China but they were not made quite right and require some extra lathe work. I am not in it to make any money by taking on another job, I was hoping that the Chinese guy could sell them on ebay like he does with the ER11M adapters. He does not seem able to fix them himself and do that, so, I guess it is over.

[unitedcases]

I am sorry but I just sent out my spare and am out. It is possible that I could get more from China but they were not made quite right and require some extra lathe work. I am not in it to make any money by taking on another job, I was hoping that the Chinese guy could sell them on ebay like he does with the ER11M adapters. He does not seem able to fix them himself and do that, so, I guess it is over.
There has to be an alternative way to get these and not off your back. I myself would like 3 more. At minimum. Do we need to take what we have to someone to make?

[kcc2012]

Those are really cool. I haven't quite figured out how to split up a pattern for doing multi wood carves.


United Cases -- here are a few images of blocks of the longer carves I've done 69994699956999669997. THe eagle is about 54 inches tall -- 3 blocks 54x14 inches glued together, the moon is cut on my other cnc, it's 36x36, the paprus block is a little taller 60 x 42 inches. The eagle block took about 14 hrs per block so 42 hrs, plus guleing it together and proofing and tweaking it to look right.

I have some 8 foot blocks that did take 24 hrs , but they are hard to photograph as there is no contrast in the relief.

[kcc2012]

I guess the old saying is accurate in this case. If you snooze you loose. I kept seeing the subject matter of the thread and for some reason automatically thought of the lathe inserts so I ignored it but today decided to look at it as I was trying to troubleshoot another problem. This sounds like something that I would be very interested in purchasing if you ever decide to do this again. Thank you for the quick response and for the creative juices. Are there other after market things I can do to the CarveWright that would help or enhance it's ability?


I am sorry but I just sent out my spare and am out. It is possible that I could get more from China but they were not made quite right and require some extra lathe work. I am not in it to make any money by taking on another job, I was hoping that the Chinese guy could sell them on ebay like he does with the ER11M adapters. He does not seem able to fix them himself and do that, so, I guess it is over.

[bergerud]

There has to be an alternative way to get these and not off your back. I myself would like 3 more. At minimum. Do we need to take what we have to someone to make?

There must be around 80 of these just sitting in China. (I asked him to make 10 and he made 100. Some were bad.) If some machinist wanted to take over the project of fixing and selling them, I bet they could be bought cheap. I think a complete truck assembly with the ER20M, collets, and a lock button would be a lucrative thing to sell. Anybody out there with machinist smarts want a job?

[unitedcases]

There must be around 80 of these just sitting in China. (I asked him to make 10 and he made 100. Some were bad.) If some machinist wanted to take over the project of fixing and selling them, I bet they could be bought cheap. I think a complete truck assembly with the ER20M, collets, and a lock button would be a lucrative thing to sell. Anybody out there with machinist smarts want a job?
I have very good machinists that I can get for these. As I need more I would be willing to spearhead. How can I help?

[bergerud]

I have very good machinists that I can get for these. As I need more I would be willing to spearhead. How can I help?

It would be nice if someone wanted to buy all of them and machine them. Get them all for a good price. If not then I am sure you could buy some from the guy and have them fixed yourself. Lets wait a little while and see if there is a machinist among us would like a hobby. We would not want to make the Chinese guy think there is a demand by making inquiries!

[unitedcases]

It would be nice if someone wanted to buy all of them and machine them. Get them all for a good price. If not then I am sure you could buy some from the guy and have them fixed yourself. Lets wait a little while and see if there is a machinist among us would like a hobby. We would not want to make the Chinese guy think there is a demand by making inquiries!
Probably a good idea. Whoever does this just know I am in for three more as of right now.

[FWMiller]

I'd buy one if they were to become available. Still holding on to my old QC truck just in case.

[rjgreen761]

I ran a 13 minute test carve. The spindle worked great. Less vibration and better quality. I measured the spindle temperature at the lower bearing and it was around 120 degrees. I don't know if that is normal or if it will cooler as it wears in. Big improvement over the QC.

[unitedcases]

Mine started about 120. Mellowed out to about 100. Room is pretty hot right now. High 80s and low 90s. I would say that's good. I am using the ZZ type bearings. I did get a bit of a rise back up over 100 when I cut something out with the 3/16th cutting bit.

[rjgreen761]

Mine started about 120. Mellowed out to about 100. Room is pretty hot right now. High 80s and low 90s. I would say that's good. I am using the ZZ type bearings. I did get a bit of a rise back up over 100 when I cut something out with the 3/16th cutting bit.

Good to know. I am using the ZZ bearing also.

[rjgreen761]

The ER20 spindle worked great. I did a 2 hr 40 min carve. It was quieter and smoother than the QC. The flex shaft ran almost 10 degrees cooler than with the QC. I am really pleased with the results.

[unitedcases]

The ER20 spindle worked great. I did a 2 hr 40 min carve. It was quieter and smoother than the QC. The flex shaft ran almost 10 degrees cooler than with the QC. I am really pleased with the results.
That's awesome. Good to hear.

[ktjwilliams]

Me N Dan been tellin you guyz N girls this for a couple years now !!!! LOL ... It was a great idea from Dan ....

[bergerud]

The ER20 spindle worked great. I did a 2 hr 40 min carve. It was quieter and smoother than the QC. The flex shaft ran almost 10 degrees cooler than with the QC. I am really pleased with the results.

Good to hear.

[rjgreen761]

Now I need another one for my other machine.

[unitedcases]

Now I need another one for my other machine.
And the fever has spread...I am running all of mine pretty hard but if I ever have a bit of down time I do plan to visit my resident machinist with one in hand.

[bergerud]

And the fever has spread...I am running all of mine pretty hard but if I ever have a bit of down time I do plan to visit my resident machinist with one in hand.

Here is the original and the revision I sent to China if you want your machinist to have a look. (The red in the revision is what has to be done to the spindles from China.)

[SteveNelson46]

Bergerud,

If you use a propane torch to heat and remove the pressed on sleeve from the LHR long bits and use them in the ER20, how deep of a cut can you make?

[bergerud]

Bergerud,

If you use a propane torch to heat and remove the pressed on sleeve from the LHR long bits and use them in the ER20, how deep of a cut can you make?

The ER20M spindles are the same geometry as the CT and so, it is the same. I keep the CT adapters on the deep bits and use 1/2" collets. (It is better than overtightening the 1/4" collets.)

[SteveNelson46]

The ER20M spindles are the same geometry as the CT and so, it is the same. I keep the CT adapters on the deep bits and use 1/2" collets. (It is better than overtightening the 1/4" collets.)

I guess I could search the threads to answer this question. However, is it still possible to get one and if so, how much are they?

[unitedcases]

Here is the original and the revision I sent to China if you want your machinist to have a look. (The red in the revision is what has to be done to the spindles from China.)
That's what I needed Dan. Many thanks. It will take me a while but I will get him on it. Like you I am not going to try and make money with this bit I am sure he won't do them for free. Everybody get ready to chip in for a case of beer. Jarheads will do anything for a case of beer...

[SteveNelson46]

Dan,

I did go back and read the posts in this thread and now I see. If anyone decides to take on the endeavor of re-machining and ordering, please count me in. If money is needed in advance just let me know.

[unitedcases]

Dan,

I did go back and read the posts in this thread and now I see. If anyone decides to take on the endeavor of re-machining and ordering, please count me in. If money is needed in advance just let me know.
Just beer money...

[kcc2012]

Definitely count me in. I'll gladly chip in. Just let me know.

[unitedcases]

I have the drawings, the problem may be the example. I don't think I can shut down one of my machines for an example. I am sure he can do it off the drawings but I would feel better if he could lay eyes on one.

[bergerud]

Just see what he says when he sees the drawings. Compare fixing the China ones to making them from scratch. The ones from China are also heat treated.

[unitedcases]

Just see what he says when he sees the drawings. Compare fixing the China ones to making them from scratch. The ones from China are also heat treated.
So you can still get those. as is?

[bergerud]

So you can still get those. as is?

I would think so. The guy is sitting on more than 80 of them. He was going to sell them to me for $27 each with nut and wrench when he thought they were good. I told him they needed to be fixed before they could be sold. He does not seem able to fix them. I could try and get a deal from him. (He owes me one for all the money he has made on the ER11M adapters!)

Talk to your machinist friend and see what he thinks. What would they be worth? I had a quote from Maritool. He would have made the spindles for $138 each for 12. It is not an easy, from scratch, machine job.

[unitedcases]

I would think so. The guy is sitting on more than 80 of them. He was going to sell them to me for $27 each with nut and wrench when he thought they were good. I told him they needed to be fixed before they could be sold. He does not seem able to fix them. I could try and get a deal from him. (He owes me one for all the money he has made on the ER11M adapters!)

Talk to your machinist friend and see what he thinks. What would they be worth? I had a quote from Maritool. He would have made the spindles for $138 each for 12. It is not an easy, from scratch, machine job.
I will talk to him. I always like having spares. For that initial price I would be willing to buy 10. I will try to make my way over there tomorrow.

[55president]

I have some of the components now to put it together. How tight a fit are the 6802zz bearings?, I bought the ceramic type about $25.00. Is this a press fit? it seems real tight ,
I have yet to measure it.

[bergerud]

It is a press fit. Not too tight. You do need to press it on. I use a vise with a piece of hardwood behind the threads and a short piece of pipe (around 1.5" long, 3/4" I.D.) to press on the inner race.

[ktjwilliams]

I used a wood vise and a socket to press it on ...

[unitedcases]

I used my fingers.

[bergerud]

I used my fingers.

Stong fingers! Some bearings do seem to push on easier. A ten thou here or there makes a difference. I would use some Loctite if it goes on too easy. It will expand when it gets hot.

[unitedcases]

They definitely don't go in easy by any means. I should have said I just about stand myself up on the truck when I do it...and grunt a lot. I have had no problems with them yet. Matter of fact I have to go over to the squadron next door to quote some officers on a job and plan to visit the machinist. Wish me luck.

[rjgreen761]

I love this ER20 spindle. Another long carve set to normal and it came out great. Flex shaft ran very cool. I need to get another for my other machine. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

[unitedcases]

I love this ER20 spindle. Another long carve set to normal and it came out great. Flex shaft ran very cool. I need to get another for my other machine. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
I have had no luck with a machinist.

[rjgreen761]

Can anyone tell give me a good source for an ER20 shaft as a starting point to machine one myself?

[unitedcases]

Wait for Dan to get back to you.

[bergerud]

I am on a road trip now. I am away from all my machines and resources. When I get home in a week, I will see what I can do.

[kcc2012]

I'm interested as well. I haven't tried to find anyone yet but I have some friends who are machinist. One of them actually uses a CNC machine as part of his metal fabrication. I'll have to see if he can or will do it and see if he feels its worth his time to make more.

[unitedcases]

Monday I am supposed to drop the plans off with my last ditch effort machinist. Cross your fingers.

[rjgreen761]

Any news on possibly getting more of these?:D

[unitedcases]

Any news on possibly getting more of these?:D
I am afraid I am at a loss. Which is bad because I need to outfit 3 more trucks.

[bergerud]

We can buy the spindles from the manufacturer but they need to be fixed by a machinist.

There are three problems:

1. The lock pin holes are too small for a 1/4" pin (not a major problem)
2. The shank is not quite long enough and a little has to be turned off of the shoulder of the large bearing journal. (Otherwise there may be no room for the wave washer under the top bearing.)
3. Many spindles have excessive run out and need the taper re-turned. (This is requires a precise setup.)

It would be much easier to buy these spindles and fix them than it would be to make them from scratch. We need a machinist member to take on the project.

Unfortunately, the demand for these spindles is not as high as I expected it to be. Only a few members have realized how good they are. Of all the spindles I sent out, I think few were even used. If these members would just resell their spindles to the members who want them, the demand problem could be solved (at least in the short term). (PM unitedcases if you want to sell your spindle.)

[rjgreen761]

How do we get more of these that need rework from the supplier?

[bergerud]

The supplier is the same person who sells the ER11M adapters on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1pcs-1-2-ER11-28L-Straight-collet-chuck-and-3pcs-ER11-collet-1-4-3-16and1-8-/281142871145?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item41756bc469

He quoted me the bare spindles (no nut or wrench) at $13 each. He knows they need work. (They were $27 for me with nut and wrench when he thought they were good.) Send him an email. Ask him about the ER20M CNC spindles which were made for Bergerud.

[unitedcases]

The supplier is the same person who sells the ER11M adapters on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1pcs-1-2-ER11-28L-Straight-collet-chuck-and-3pcs-ER11-collet-1-4-3-16and1-8-/281142871145?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item41756bc469

He quoted me the bare spindles (no nut or wrench) at $13 each. He knows they need work. (They were $27 for me with nut and wrench when he thought they were good.) Send him an email. Ask him about the ER20M CNC spindles which were made for Bergerud.
I'm pretty sure you have asked dan, but is it worth asking him for a price to make the adjustments you cited?

[bergerud]

I'm pretty sure you have asked dan, but is it worth asking him for a price to make the adjustments you cited?

I do not think he can make the adjustments. I tried, he said he would, but then he sent the same ones. I think he is just a middle man who had his manufacturer run 100 off (I told him to only make 10). The manufacturer did a poor job and he got stuck with them. It was partly my fault for not knowing exactly what to specify to bypass the language barrier. Anyway, I think having them fixed might not be worth it for him. It would be cheaper just to have new ones made. Without an exciting market (like the ER11M adapters), I doubt he would be in to it. If I said I wanted 100 fixed spindles, I am sure I could get it 100 good ones made.

I think what he now has is 75 or 80 spindles that he cannot sell on ebay and is ready to let go at or near his own cost. I think that is all we have at this point.

[unitedcases]

I do not think he can make the adjustments. I tried, he said he would, but then he sent the same ones. I think he is just a middle man who had his manufacturer run 100 off (I told him to only make 10). The manufacturer did a poor job and he got stuck with them. It was partly my fault for not knowing exactly what to specify to bypass the language barrier. Anyway, I think having them fixed might not be worth it for him. It would be cheaper just to have new ones made. Without an exciting market (like the ER11M adapters), I doubt he would be in to it. If I said I wanted 100 fixed spindles, I am sure I could get it 100 good ones made.

I think what he now has is 75 or 80 spindles that he cannot sell on ebay and is ready to let go at or near his own cost. I think that is all we have at this point.
So maybe the best course is to buy the raw ones off of eBay and at least that way we have them? Then search for someone to make the adjustments? I looked at his listings. He has a ton. Does he have those specific ones listed Dan?

[bergerud]

These spindles are not listed on ebay. It never got to that stage because I did not give him the green light like I did with the ER11M adapters. If you want to buy them from him you have to deal with him directly.

[unitedcases]

We can buy the spindles from the manufacturer but they need to be fixed by a machinist.

There are three problems:

1. The lock pin holes are too small for a 1/4" pin (not a major problem)
2. The shank is not quite long enough and a little has to be turned off of the shoulder of the large bearing journal. (Otherwise there may be no room for the wave washer under the top bearing.)
3. Many spindles have excessive run out and need the taper re-turned. (This is requires a precise setup.)

It would be much easier to buy these spindles and fix them than it would be to make them from scratch. We need a machinist member to take on the project.

Unfortunately, the demand for these spindles is not as high as I expected it to be. Only a few members have realized how good they are. Of all the spindles I sent out, I think few were even used. If these members would just resell their spindles to the members who want them, the demand problem could be solved (at least in the short term). (PM unitedcases if you want to sell your spindle.)
Thanks for the shout out Dan. I will definitely buy them if people aren't using them. And probably pay double what you originally paid. Just send me a pm if you aren't using yours and want to sell it.

[papawbummie]

Was wondering if any new update on Mr. bergerud dust collecter? Thanks Bert

[55president]

Just finished putting in the new spindle -- Quiet.

Thanks

[ktjwilliams]

Glad to hear u like it.. yes they are very quiet and pretty much no vibration or run out. U can get optimal carves using the lower setting saving lots of time.

[rjgreen761]

I have one of these spindles, and it works great. I need another one for my other machine. If there is someone that got one of these and do not plan on using it I would be happy to buy from you. please let me know I need to get another one somehow. I am running my machine with the QC right now and can hear it running from my family room. When I run the machine with the ER20 spindle I can not hear it running from this spot.

[ktjwilliams]

I know I haven't made any in a long time, Dan made some last year and quickly dispensed them .. So right now the only folks that may have 1 are the folks that got them from Dan and decided not to use em .. I have been considering making a couple according to Dan's new modifications but am not sure if and when I will have the chance to do it .. And like Dan, they will only cost what they cost, no profit ...

[unitedcases]

I've been holding this info but I have a machinist. Don't anyone get crazy yet but it would be a good idea to know how many people want one. I know I'm in for about 5 more. I'm supposed to have his first one end of next week. I'm going to end up being a middle man so if you want one chime in. Or 2 or 3 or whatever. This will be just the spindle. I'll post again when I have the first one and give where to order the nut and wrench and collet. I have found all of those on ebay but I am trying to find all 3 from the same seller. Then I am going to barter with that same seller.

[blhutchens]

I've been holding this info but I have a machinist. Don't anyone get crazy yet but it would be a good idea to know how many people want one. I know I'm in for about 5 more. I'm supposed to have his first one end of next week. I'm going to end up being a middle man so if you want one chime in. Or 2 or 3 or whatever. This will be just the spindle. I'll post again when I have the first one and give where to order the nut and wrench and collet. I have found all of those on ebay but I am trying to find all 3 from the same seller. Then I am going to barter with that same seller.



I'm in for 2 of them.

[SteveNelson46]

I've been holding this info but I have a machinist. Don't anyone get crazy yet but it would be a good idea to know how many people want one. I know I'm in for about 5 more. I'm supposed to have his first one end of next week. I'm going to end up being a middle man so if you want one chime in. Or 2 or 3 or whatever. This will be just the spindle. I'll post again when I have the first one and give where to order the nut and wrench and collet. I have found all of those on ebay but I am trying to find all 3 from the same seller. Then I am going to barter with that same seller.

I'm in for 3 of them. Please let me know if you need cash in advance.

[FWMiller]

I'll take one.

[unitedcases]

Preliminary talking, I would probably send PayPal invoices to all who want one, that way there is a receipt.

[kcc2012]

I'm very interested in getting one or two. Just let me know how much and who to pay.

[farmer]

I would be in for 2!

[ekimnamyr]

Put me in for two of those. Let me know where,when,who to pay.
I've been holding this info but I have a machinist. Don't anyone get crazy yet but it would be a good idea to know how many people want one. I know I'm in for about 5 more. I'm supposed to have his first one end of next week. I'm going to end up being a middle man so if you want one chime in. Or 2 or 3 or whatever. This will be just the spindle. I'll post again when I have the first one and give where to order the nut and wrench and collet. I have found all of those on ebay but I am trying to find all 3 from the same seller. Then I am going to barter with that same seller.

[blhutchens]

What about the bearings? Are the same size as the factory ones? Do they offer them from Carvewright

[unitedcases]

The bearing part numbers have been posted before but I will find them and post them.

[unitedcases]

So just now I got a pm from someone telling me how many and their email address. That's probably the way to go. But keep in mind I don't have a price yet and haven't received the first one either.

[unitedcases]

To everyone that has sent messages. I got them. To everyone else, send me a pm. That's going to be the simplest way for me to keep these categorized and organized. I need your name and email so when a price is available I can just send you an invoice. Also, I am being told that the first spindle will be done this week and I should have it in my hands by next week so don't get too excited yet. I, like most of you, haven't slowed since Christmas so this will be a challenge for me. But I'm sure you will all love these things once you get them installed on your machine.

[Rocketman]

That leaves $14 dollars to re-work it, purchase a nut and purchase a wrench. The spindle run out required is less than a half thousandth so that means to re-work it would require each one to be dialed in using an indicator and a collet spindle and then there may not be enough excess metal to be able to true it up and keep the rest of the piece within tolerance. There's not enough skin in the game for even a poor broke machinist with a cnc lathe sitting right next to his carvewright like me, to take on that can of worms. We would be better off getting another 100 made at the original price.

Brad


The supplier is the same person who sells the ER11M adapters on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1pcs-1-2-ER11-28L-Straight-collet-chuck-and-3pcs-ER11-collet-1-4-3-16and1-8-/281142871145?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item41756bc469

He quoted me the bare spindles (no nut or wrench) at $13 each. He knows they need work. (They were $27 for me with nut and wrench when he thought they were good.) Send him an email. Ask him about the ER20M CNC spindles which were made for Bergerud.

[bergerud]

Actually he was going to give me the spindle and nut for $13 if I bought 20. I was ready to pay him for 20 but he never replied. Anybody want to put up the money to buy 100? Not me. I fixed and sent out 20 or so already for just my cost. It is not something to make a living on!

[bergerud]

I just put some full ceramic bearings on ER20M spindle on my main machine. The spindle spins quite freely. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

[ktjwilliams]

Full Ceramic .... Cool ,,, Literally ... I looked at em before but there so pricey .... Where did you get these ??

[bergerud]

I only have a few hours on them. Spindle sure spins free. They say "self lubricating". I oiled them anyway.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/6804-Sealed-...item19fe877762 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6804-Sealed-Full-Ceramic-Zirconia-Oxide-Bearing-ZrO2-20x32x-7mm-Self-lubricating-/111644473186?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fe877762)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6000-Sealed-...item19fe87776f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6000-Sealed-Full-Ceramic-Zirconia-Oxide-Bearing-ZrO2-10x26x-8mm-Self-lubricating-/111644473199?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fe87776f)

[unitedcases]

Can you post how you oiled them? Probably a silly question.

[bergerud]

Carefully lift or pop off a seal (the one which will be inside the truck) and drop in some oil.

[bergerud]

Ceramic bearing update. Was working great until the plastic ball cage pushed off the lower seal and flew out. This Chinese version is no good. I am onto a hybrid ceramic. The $50 one from VXB.

[unitedcases]

Wow, talk about timing. I was about to buy them.

[bergerud]

Good, I was worried! Maybe a more expensive ceramic would be ok. They are supposed to handle the heat so it makes no sense for the cage to melt. Just a cheap plastic cage I think.

I may steal a cage out of another bearing and try it again.

[unitedcases]

Machine #3 isnt happy right now. Running a bottom bearing which is a VV, but the top is a cheap one. Stiff. Keeps getting hotter than hot. Going to change the bearings in it tonight to both VV and see how it does tomorrow.

[bergerud]

I have high hopes for the VV bearings. Let me know if any of those fail. If the VV fails, then I will have to admit this as a serious weakness in my spindle design.

[unitedcases]

I am running two 6 hour carves in it today. I hope to change the bearings tonight. If I have any gas in the tank left. But more than likely they wont get changed til tomorrow. But hopefully I can immediately run something in it.

[unitedcases]

Well #3 for some reason had both "Z" style bearings. I dont remember doing that but maybe thats all I had when I built than one up. Going to load a short carve to break the "VV" ones in, 6 hours...

[Rocketman]

Ceramic bearing update. Was working great until the plastic ball cage pushed off the lower seal and flew out. This Chinese version is no good. I am onto a hybrid ceramic. The $50 one from VXB.

It's been about seven months since you reported the bearing failure. How's the replacement working out? I've had my old quick change style chuck spin loose on my Carvewright and figure as long as I'm fixing it I may as well upgrade it to the er20 design. I'm just in need of a bearing that will last.

About that ceramic bearing, how did you go about pressing it into place? Are they fragile? Has anyone looked into an angular contact bearing?

Another thing, is it possible yours got too hot because you lubed it? The Teflon is self lubricating and should have been able to withstand the heat. Maybe the lube provided too much resistance at high speed causing excess heat?

I still like the design and if the bearing problem can't be solved maybe we should be thinking of a new Z axis truck design that will either support larger bearings or some kind of cooling if heat is the problem. Liquid cooled? Air cooled? Maybe design in the dust collection in the new truck to the vacuum can provide the cooling for the bearings? I've never been a fan of after thought style dust collectors. Just a little food for thought.

I'll be ordering a bearing or two in the next couple of days as my machines are both down. A few of my Christmas gifts are going to be a little late this year.

Brad

[bergerud]

I am quite happy with the hybrid ceramic. It is a high quality bearing and I think it will last. Also, I think the VV bearings last ok as well. This is a case where one cannot go cheap.

I have also thought about designing a whole new truck with better bearings. I do not see, however, how to get the hose out for on truck dust collection.

[unitedcases]

The VV bearings have worked great for me. The only thing I would note is as we tested the different bearings I did have a couple tolerance rings go. I believe from taking bearings in and out so much. But other than that solid.

[Rocketman]

Did you go with VXB bearings again? One of my complaints with their site is they leave so many bearing specs out of the information. Heat ratings? RPM ratings? Those two factors are quite important to our applications. Any special requirements pressing those ceramics onto the spindle other than keeping things squared while applying pressure?

I'd really love to try an angular bearing but most of them are unsealed and won't work for our application.

I was thinking of a tube inside of a tube design for the vacuum problem. Think of the head and block of an engine with the water ports channeling water around the internal combustion sections of the motor. It may have to extend further out of the slot in the top of the Carvewright to allow a manifold or port to separate the drive shaft from the vacuum. The trick is to keep it compact and light. The closer we can get to the source of the chips the less vacuum we need and that helps to keep the hose diameter small. But you already know all that. Your dust collection designs make that clear. If we increase the diameter to move chips we can also build thinner and end up with the same strength. One of the limits will be side clearances within the machine itself.

Another possibility is a lightweight composite such as carbon fiber for dust collection around the central bearing supports which could remain aluminum to maintain keeping things rigid. I think the design could also be simplified by making the top and bottom bearings the same size. The downside of the composite structure is making things more complicated to manufacture. I'd rather start with a rough sand casting of aluminum machine it to size from there. A light weldment of chrome moly 4130 tubing as a starting point prior to machining may also be a possibility.

[unitedcases]

Bought them on ebay. That way I got a little more bang for my buck. I'll try to find the item numbers.

[Rocketman]

Your probably carving the longest carves on a regular basis and that says a lot. What VV bearing did you use?

[unitedcases]

I'll need to look them up. Just to be sure I don't misquote. And your right. I do 12 hour carves weekly. At least one or so. I have one machine that is all it does. Then another just for the short ones. The other two just sit as backups.

[Rocketman]

I'll need to look them up. Just to be sure I don't misquote. And your right. I do 12 hour carves weekly. At least one or so. I have one machine that is all it does. Then another just for the short ones. The other two just sit as backups.

I read somewhere that the vv was a brand specific code that NSK uses. I found a 6804 vv bearing on ebay for $21.00 dollars American and ordered that to get me up and going again.

I also ran across an "Enduro" brand "ZEROceramic" part number: C0 6804-VV Zero Ceramic Enduro Bike Bearing 20 x 32 x 7 that looks promising. My only concern is most bikes don't have the spindle speeds we do. The price would have been about double as it was listed in euro's. Still not a bad price if it proved to work for any length of time.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I am quite happy with the hybrid ceramic. It is a high quality bearing and I think it will last. Also, I think the VV bearings last ok as well. This is a case where one cannot go cheap.

I have also thought about designing a whole new truck with better bearings. I do not see, however, how to get the hose out for on truck dust collection.

I was thinking Rectangular Metal Pipe.... Thought of grinding flat the front of the current truck to the top hat bracket and the bottom close to the spindle with a slide down after homing piece... since you mentioned it...

AL

[bergerud]

I was thinking Rectangular Metal Pipe.... Thought of grinding flat the front of the current truck to the top hat bracket and the bottom close to the spindle with a slide down after homing piece... since you mentioned it...

AL

The thing I cannot figure is how to get out of the top cover. The flex takes up the whole slot as it moves from far left to far right.

[Rocketman]

The thing I cannot figure is how to get out of the top cover. The flex takes up the whole slot as it moves from far left to far right.

I'm not sure but I thought it was you that had tried the smaller diameter tubing out of the top for dust collection in the past? Since that proved you have room for a single hose on the side; why not put one on each side of the truck to double your air volume?

Al mentioned the rectangular tube idea and that's valid room for exploration for those of us without the old quick change chucks. We don't need the finger grasp area to remove our tools and I too think that area can be used for dust collection. Combine the side space with the milled off front space and you have quite a bit of room for vacuum. The top hat could easily be changed into a manifold design to port everything and still allow the spindle to exit the top.

I still thinking about carving out a rough styrofoam pattern for lost sand casting. The Carvewright could make the foam core. The video link here was picked as an example just because the tool used to carve the foam is much like the carving tool we use in our machines. There are tons of better examples on you tube for this casting process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYVQ8ypHss
I could then use either the cnc lathe or mill depending on the design to machine the rest of the casting to hold the spindle and bearings.

While I don't have a furnace, I do have a ceramics kiln that I could use to melt the aluminum. Too many projects at the moment but it's been on my "someday down the road" list for awhile now.

Brad

[bergerud]

It might be Dick's experiment that you remember. http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19310-Dust-cap-modifications&p=163934#post163934

I thought he would have had to cut the top cover for extra clearance to get a hose out, but maybe not.

[Rocketman]

It might be Dick's experiment that you remember. http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19310-Dust-cap-modifications&p=163934#post163934

I thought he would have had to cut the top cover for extra clearance to get a hose out, but maybe not.

Thanks for the link, it's been awhile since I read that thread. If I sift these threads long enough it will save me a lot of design work down the road since you guys have already found many of the obstacles we need to navigate around to get to an improved product.

The one I'm thinking of used a small flexible tube kind of like the feed line on those cheaper air pencil grinders sold by Harbor Freight. I think I read your inside elbow diameter was 3/8 or something and you were still able to make it work. It sounds like we don't need much suction, we just need to get it in the right place.