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View Full Version : About to take the plunge. Two pre-sale questions first.



Cavallo
03-11-2013, 09:11 AM
I'm planning to finally do it, and place an order this week. First, two questions which may have been hinted at elsewhere, but I need to ask anyway if for no other reason than to get me over the nervousness that comes with such an expense.





1) Is this website the absolute best purchase value for a new machine? I'm more than happy to order here, but am not wedded to it if I can get a better value elsewhere. This might seem a bit of a ballsy question to ask on LHR's own website, but I have to be practical.

2) I have a desktop and a laptop. Is the software allowed to be installed on multiple machines as long as they are mine? A lot of software is licensed this way, and it would be extremely handy for me.






Thanks in advance.

Dale
03-11-2013, 09:59 AM
Welcome to the Carvewright world. I don't know the answer to your first question but I do know that you can install the software on two computers.

Dale

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 10:11 AM
Thanks, Dale! Very helpful info.

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 10:20 AM
Also, I guess I have one more question. Extended warranties. In my head, I'm weighing the 'delicate' reputation this machine has against the awesomeness of this forum in helping people with troubleshooting. Is there a general consensus about warranties? Something like "OHMIGOD never get a CW without one," or "don't bother, not enough stuff is covered to make it worthwhile and anyway they charge too much shipping for everything," etc….

chebytrk
03-11-2013, 10:21 AM
I think that the web site is a good deal. I THINK that some people MIGHT get a little better if there is a Woodcraft Show close to you and there is a CW rep there. Sometimes they may have a "special" going. I also have a desktop and laptop that I keep both programs on so I can do work from either machine. I'll even share a folder between the both just to keep the same thing going from both PCs.

Digitalwoodshop
03-11-2013, 02:02 PM
I believe everyone should buy the 1st machine from LHR with the Warranty... That is the way I did it.... But in my case from Sears in 2007 when they sold them. Then once you have the machine down and all the In's and outs of project setup and PREVENTIVE Maintenance you will be very comfortable with the system. The Warranty will aid in learning the machine and make it much more cost effective.

So it will come a time that you want to add a 2nd machine, you can take advantage of the MANY used units that show up here and on eBay and Craig's List. By that time you will be a Professional Operator and Maintenance Person on the machine.

Other than a Cracked Frame Machine from Shipping Damage there is little that cannot be repaired. Even a "A" Series machine without the Frame Improvements of the "C" is a really GREAT Machine... As long as it has the FSC Cable upgrade known as the A907 I believe.... A 18 pin to 14 pin change to that big flat cable that carries the Z power and Data.

Last I knew you could have 2 computers registered for each machine you own... I have 4 and will be calling as I have 2 more back up computers and will find out first hand soon.

Finding and reading Tips and Tricks will do you more good than anything as many of the faults are what we call Pilot Error as in the crash was caused by the operator.

And the 'Delicate" Reputation has pretty much gone out the window... Many little improvements have turned this machine into a pretty impressive Hobby CNC. Spend some time reading the Troubleshooting Forum and look at the LACK of any serious problems... Sure if you look at 2007 posts it was different.... But Like the Actress Jane Fonda.... She will always be known as "Hanoi Jane" for going to North Vietnam and getting her picture taken on a Anti Air Gun and gave Notes passed to her by the POW'S to the NVA General.... No matter what she does as an Actress...

Good Luck,

AL

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 02:48 PM
And the 'Delicate" Reputation has pretty much gone out the window... Many little improvements have turned this machine into a pretty impressive Hobby CNC. Spend some time reading the Troubleshooting Forum and look at the LACK of any serious problems... Sure if you look at 2007 posts it was different.... But Like the Actress Jane Fonda.... She will always be known as "Hanoi Jane" for going to North Vietnam and getting her picture taken on a Anti Air Gun and gave Notes passed to her by the POW'S to the NVA General.... No matter what she does as an Actress...

What a great analogy. Seriously.

So, if the machines really are beefier now, I think that my plan is to rely on the 30-day warranty, my wits, and this forum to get me through, since that's $200 that could be put into the DXF importer. It seems mildly evil to charge extra for such a seemingly common feature, but then I'm used to print publishing where these shenanigans would not be tolerated. I get that vertical markets just work this way. I have a friend who does machine embroidery and the software in that market is much worse. At least LHR has a sort-of-almost-Mac version, even if it does rely on X-Windows. But I'm rambling.

I'm thinking the upgraded traction belts, and Scanning Probe will be necessary. I'm wondering about the DXF importer, however. I mean, being able to import vector art from Adobe Illustrator would be brilliant, but couldn't I just rasterize my art in Photoshop, and import raster height maps to carve? If I needed a cut path, could I use the built-in trace function to trace the raster into a vector and cut that, or is there a quality hit? Who is the CW software guru hereabouts?

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 03:18 PM
Wow! And within minutes of posting this, I found the free utility ai2mpc! As I was intending to work largely in Illustrator anyway, this is ideal, and probably just saved me $200, which now makes more sense to spend on the warranty. The author of this utility should be given some kind of medal.

lynnfrwd
03-11-2013, 03:18 PM
FYI on this warranty topic:

Most people on here paid $1899.99 for a machine with the one year warranty included. However, so many of them (including out of country customers) wanted an option without the warranty included. So, we lowered the price (significantly) and made it an option and even began offering a two year warranty option (also customer's request).

If you do the math, you are still getting a better deal even adding the two year warranty, you are back at $1899.99 or $1599.99 with the one year option.

You have up until 90 days after purchase to add a warranty, but both are $100 more.

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 03:44 PM
FYI on this warranty topic:

Most people on here paid $1899.99 for a machine with the one year warranty included. However, so many of them (including out of country customers) wanted an option without the warranty included. So, we lowered the price (significantly) and made it an option and even began offering a two year warranty option (also customer's request).

If you do the math, you are still getting a better deal even adding the two year warranty, you are back at $1899.99 or $1599.99 with the one year option.

You have up until 90 days after purchase to add a warranty, but both are $100 more.

Awesome info. Very helpful. Thanks!

Digitalwoodshop
03-11-2013, 06:14 PM
Centerline Text would be on the top of my list for a add on too... It just makes nicer text most of the time.

Good Luck,

AL

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 07:20 PM
Centerline Text would be on the top of my list for a add on too... It just makes nicer text most of the time.

Good Luck,

AL

Noted. I don't see myself doing a lot of text, however.

fwharris
03-11-2013, 07:29 PM
Then add "conforming vectors" if you have plans of importing vectors into your carvings. Great feature even with out the centerline...

Cavallo
03-11-2013, 09:06 PM
I know what Conforming Vectors does, but how does it do it? Does it carve the basic shape, and then cut the vectors into the carving as if they're still vector cut paths, or does it just convert the vectors and add them to the carving so the whole thing carves as one big carving? If the latter, I can probably just get the same effect with a grayscale image using layers in Photoshop to create a composite heightmap. I've already done similar things with the demo of Designer. It seems as if quite a lot can be done by just importing an appropriate bitmap.

fwharris
03-11-2013, 09:49 PM
I know what Conforming Vectors does, but how does it do it? Does it carve the basic shape, and then cut the vectors into the carving as if they're still vector cut paths, or does it just convert the vectors and add them to the carving so the whole thing carves as one big carving? If the latter, I can probably just get the same effect with a grayscale image using layers in Photoshop to create a composite heightmap. I've already done similar things with the demo of Designer. It seems as if quite a lot can be done by just importing an appropriate bitmap.

It is two separate carves. The raster/pattern carve will be done first and then it will ask for the Vector bit to be installed to carve the vector.

If you have the software knowledge to do such then it would be done in one carve. Not to sure how the final look would be compared the the vector cut but guessing it would be very close...

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 06:49 AM
If you have the software knowledge to do such then it would be done in one carve. Not to sure how the final look would be compared the the vector cut but guessing it would be very close...

If it would carve out the basic design before cutting the vectors anyway, there would be no time savings to using CV. The only thing I'd worry about is any possible quality hit. I'm glad to hear that it might be very close. I'd see for myself, but this is all still theoretical for me at the moment...

cnsranch
03-12-2013, 10:15 AM
Don't really know if I was one of the lucky ones on the past or not.....

I've had my machine 5 years (hard to believe) - I think it's a "B" machine.

Aside from upgrading to the CT chuck a while back (QC finally shelled out), and replacing the X gear (both of those issues were clearly Operator Error) I have had zero problems.

I bought the probe and centerline text with the machine, got conforming vectors when it came available. All must haves, IMHO.

I was one of those $1,899 purchasers, plus the add-ons - never paid that much for a tool in my life. As a result, I treated the thing like glass in the beginning - NEVER did anything with it unless I was positive I knew what I was doing. I spent more time here on the Forum than I did in the workshop - I picked the brains of these guys here (probably made them nuts), but I really learned the machine back to front (except for AW's knowledge of the electrical ends of the thing).

So, was I lucky, or did I make my own luck? Not really sure, but I can tell you that I have never regretted buying the machine, and I use it in almost each project I do any more.

If I knew how it was going to turn out, I wouldn't have bought a warranty (no choice back then) - of course, the guy who's selling you the warranty is betting you that nothing will go wrong, and the guy who's buying it is betting that it will.

Warranties are gambles, any way you look at them.

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 10:35 AM
I've always looked at warranties and insurance the same way myself. My intent is to do much as you describe - treat the thing like glass initially, and thoroughly research everything I ask the thing to do before I do it. I also plan to make/acquire a dust collector and moly-lube the shaft before I even turn the thing on. I'm a programmer/IT guy by trade. I tend to be analytical about absolutely everything. It has stood me in good stead so far.

cnsranch
03-12-2013, 10:48 AM
Even in the early days most of the issues were Operator Error - guys would get frustrated, and bitch about the machine.

Case in point - a few years back I had two pieces of 8'x8"x2" thick Maple my son wanted carved for the sides of his mantle. I tried to keep them natural as possible to preserve the thickness of the wood. We had error after error while the machine was trying to measure the boards - tracking roller errors, front and back roller errors, on and on. My engineer son was bitching about the piece of crap machine when all along we were trying to use boards that didn't have good edges along the tracking rollers, and not enough support on the infeed and outfeed sides. I knew what was wrong, I just didn't want to plane the boards anymore than I had to.

But I had to, and once we had the boards square, parallel, and enough support, the projects went through without a hitch.

Someone new would have had the attidude that the machine was no good when it was clearly Operator Error.

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 10:59 AM
Someone new would have had the attidude that the machine was no good when it was clearly Operator Error.

Wow, good anecdote. I'll definitely be doing long boards at some point, so I may pick your brain about supports. Fortunately, I'll be handling the CNC end of things, and my dad the lifelong woodworker will deal with the other things, like firing up the planer to get things forensically square.

cnsranch
03-12-2013, 11:06 AM
Support is just common sense - when you have a long, heavy board, and the machine needs to measure the entire length, think about what happens when all but 3.5" of that board is sticking out of one end or the other - waaay too much weight for the machine to handle. The end comes off the tracking roller, compresses the back or front roller too much, etc. So, you put a couple of rollers about three feet or so from each end to keep the board level through the machine.

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 11:16 AM
Kinda like what dad does with the planer. I was just wondering about the minutiae. "Three feet or so from each end" is a huge clue, thanks. Is there some type/brand of roller that works best? I'm sure dad knows, but since I have your attention… :)

myshop1044
03-12-2013, 11:29 AM
Cavallo you also should know about the weight of the board, I think the limit is 20 lb. I have done 6' and 8' boards
but they are 3/4" thick, so the weight is not there. I have 2 roller stands that I use in my shop, I place them about 3' to 4'
from each end of the machine and make sure they are level with the machine, this should take care of your needs
for long boards.
Perry B.

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 12:16 PM
But, with rollers used properly, the weight wouldn't matter, right? I could carve a 12-foot ironwood plank...

myshop1044
03-12-2013, 12:50 PM
t's not the rollers persay it is the weight of the board, the machine has to push and pull the baord
back and forth.

Perry B.

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 02:19 PM
Aha. Linear momentum. I blame Newton.

Digitalwoodshop
03-12-2013, 03:40 PM
Watch a NORMAL board carve or Vector Cut or even Centerline Text, the Whole Board needs to be moved in the X Direction. A Ironwood Board could max out the Weight Limit... Add to that if you don't have a Dust Collector and Sawdust built up between the Rollers in the Bit Area are like driving through Sand or Snow... Much Harder...

For a Bigger Plank Sign think of making letters that Attach to the Plank... Make them of the same Wood and PLAN for Expansion in Width in your mounting of the Letters to prevent Cracking Letters. Make sure the Grain of the Cut Letters is the same as the Base Substrate... I am a big FAN of PVC Signs... Since the Expensive PVC can be purchased in 4 x 8 Sheets.

I had a request to carve Business names in Oak Planks used on Dump Truck Side Protection boards.. Other than cutting a Template to use a manual Router... That was the only option... I mention this as if your Ironwood has letters you could cut hardboard Templates and use a Bearing Bit to cut the actual letters. And for stuff like the inside of the O or A you can attach that center piece with double stick tape and your handheld router will float over it no problem.

Good Luck,

AL

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 06:29 PM
I was just using ironwood as an extreme example of dense wood to try and work. I get what you're saying, though. But again, I don't see myself doing much in the way of text or signage. My uses would likely be more furniture/architectural. I could see wanting to do maximum possible lengths of complex moulding, for example, and maximize production by doing multiple strips at once. For that, I may want to do, say, a 12' long oak plank. I'll just have to mind the weight limit. Although, I can envision a way around the problem without suspending the laws of physics. I'll have a lot of experimenting to do.

Digitalwoodshop
03-12-2013, 07:08 PM
With that thought in mind... Doing say a group of 3 or 4 on a 12 foot board would take many hours.... A better way in my opinion would be to make a light weight sled with side rails out of thin plywood and have a 3 inch wide blank Hot Melt Glued to the sled in the center.

The method to the madness here is it is going to take pretty much the same time cutting 4 sets in width along a 12 foot sled. 4 times as along with a single strip. You will thank me when you get a power glitch or power failure in a 60 hour carve and will need to Air Cut back over the previous cut stuff again..... Some help can be had by making a new mpc and putting a Zero Depth Carve Region over the carved stuff... If it was a single carve you could always make a new mpc and pick up close to where it ended.

And you should never let this machine run un attended.... I listen in the next building 20 feet away with a wireless intercom with a Smoke Detector over the machine. Cutting a VERY Long Carve has been known to cause the Flex Shaft to fail from lack of lubrication. Where with shorter single carve I ALWAYS check on the machine and "Pet the Snake" as in feel for a Warm Flex Shaft and know that when it finished I put a dab of Chain Lube in the center of the core before it cools off.

Never let the machine run un attended over night... A guy posted last summer where His machine was left running in a outside un attached Shop and came back to find the Fire Department just leaving....

And you will want to plan on getting some kind of Dust Collection... A few threads on that.

I have had 2 almost fires with my carving machine.... One right after a repair and the flex shaft was real soft from sitting in the hot sun and I whipped it off the table to install in the machine and KINKED the inner damper spring. First Carve the kink rubbed with the center core and my smoke detector went off as I was 10 feet away.. Black Smoke from the Rubber.... 2nd the lower Bearing Damper came out of the Z Truck... A Corrugated piece of metal around the lower bearing designed to take up shock. The flopping bit almost caught the wood on fire. Here is a picture of it... I have had a few come out, all when using the QC that was worn most likely... The one time it was doing a cut path when it blackened the wood slopping around.... Didn't sound right and I ran for the machine caught it in time.

Good Luck,

AL

Cavallo
03-12-2013, 07:54 PM
Hmm. 60 hour carve. I see what you mean. That may not be practical. The dust collection was a given from the beginning. I found that out in my initial round of research. Also, molybdenum lubricant for the shaft.

I had also read about the potentially fiery problems of an unattended run. Somewhat as you describe, I had thought about remote monitoring. A wifi webcam could help. The smoke detector is a good idea. I might even be able to cobble together a cutoff with a thermistor to directly monitor the shaft temperature. Has anyone gone that far? I'd hate to reinvent the wheel.

gapdev
03-13-2013, 01:40 PM
I might even be able to cobble together a cutoff with a thermistor to directly monitor the shaft temperature. Has anyone gone that far? I'd hate to reinvent the wheel.

Yep. I'm working on such a system. It will be Arduino controlled, will monitor the Flexshaft temperature and be wired into a smoke detector. If the Flexshaft gets above a certain temp, it will pause the machine and then alert you via an Xbee wireless system and maybe even via text message via WiFi.

By pausing instead cutting power to the machine, you have the opportunity to inspect the shaft, let it cool, or whatever, and then resume the carve.

Kenny

Cavallo
03-13-2013, 03:01 PM
That sounds wonderful, and something like that had occurred to me. However, I thought something more like this could be highly functional if primitive;

http://www.pepiusa.com/modjc.html

or

http://www.pepiusa.com/modfc-m1d.html

I get that this would not allow you to resume the carve, but if protecting the machine is the primary goal, then a simple cutoff achieves most of the goal with a fraction of the expense.

Cavallo
03-13-2013, 03:13 PM
Incidentally - back on topic. I placed my order today. Soon, this will all be a lot less theoretical for me.

badbert
03-13-2013, 03:16 PM
That sounds wonderful, and something like that had occurred to me. However, I thought something more like this could be highly functional if primitive;

http://www.pepiusa.com/modjc.html

or

http://www.pepiusa.com/modfc-m1d.html

I get that this would not allow you to resume the carve, but if protecting the machine is the primary goal, then a simple cutoff achieves most of the goal with a fraction of the expense.

If it is just a thermal switch, you could install it on the left cover switch circuit. Then it would throw a close cover error and pause the machine.

fwharris
03-13-2013, 03:47 PM
Incidentally - back on topic. I placed my order today. Soon, this will all be a lot less theoretical for me.

Looking forward to seeing your creations! ;)

CNC Carver
03-13-2013, 03:48 PM
Cavallo I think you will have fun once it arrives. I look forward to your input to this forum. You have raised a few good ideas without having machine.
THANKS!!

Cavallo
03-13-2013, 04:44 PM
Badbert - that's a fantastic idea! That would mean the switch wouldn't need to carry full line voltage and could be much smaller. Once my machine arrives, I'll investigate this. All that remains is to work out what a reasonable cutoff temp would be.

fwharris - Thanks for everything! Looking forward to the dust control you'll be providing.

CNCCarver - I think it'll be beyond fun. I'm hoping it'll enable and facilitate a great many projects that friends and I have kicked around forever but lacked the time/skill/hardware to accomplish. I have loads of ideas. I hope the machine can keep up.

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. I must say - this forum was a huge factor in the purchasing decision.

mtylerfl
03-13-2013, 05:44 PM
... I might even be able to cobble together a cutoff with a thermistor to directly monitor the shaft temperature. Has anyone gone that far?

Howdy,

No, I don't think anyone has gone that far. :D

I've lubed the flexshaft cores on both my machines, twice in six years. They never get hot. But I pay attention that I am installing the flexshaft properly (not a hard thing, by any means). Most "meltdowns" that folks have reported to me personally, have been found to occur from improper lube (or lack thereof) and/or the user caused a kink like AL described.

Once you have your machine and get accustomed to it, I think you will find how simple it is to keep in tip-top shape. Do read the Tips & Tricks, though, so you can avoid the 'newbie' mistakes. ;)

EDIT: Just to add...I place my palm on the flexshaft at least twice during a long carve, just to be sure it is not hot. Eventually, I'm sure I'll need to re-lube, but 'by golly that Moly' lasts a l-o-n-g time!

Cavallo
03-13-2013, 06:57 PM
Good to know. Heeding the cautions here, I have no intention of letting it run completely unattended, but I'd like to be able to multitask at least a little while it's running. If nothing else, I at least need to feel as if I can go to the bathroom without something disastrous happening. :D

mtylerfl
03-13-2013, 07:07 PM
Good to know. Heeding the cautions here, I have no intention of letting it run completely unattended, but I'd like to be able to multitask at least a little while it's running. If nothing else, I at least need to feel as if I can go to the bathroom without something disastrous happening. :D

That's normal. I was the same way when I got my first machine. I didn't go potty for a week. :)

PSQRD
06-02-2014, 06:58 AM
You mentioned that it's $1599.00 with a one year and $1899.00 for a two year. I'd be more than happy to pick it up at that price. Unfortunately when I am looking at piece mealing it together it's showing me $1600.00 with an additional $200.00 for a standard one year and $500 additional for the two year. Not trying to harp on the active duty military card, but I am currently active in the Marine Corps trying to expand a side business for one day when I hang up my uniform whether it be retirement or due to downsizing and I'm looking for the most cost effective route as possible with the limited savings I have set aside. Please advise. Also, If anyone here has any recommendations on any do's and don'ts from a business owners standpoint for an up and coming entrepreneur trying to start a business I'd really appreciate it. Nice to see how many current and prior military members are involved with the CarveWright as well as it's forums and how helpful the rest of the community is - I feel welcomed and look forward to becoming a part of it.
-Paul


FYI on this warranty topic:

Most people on here paid $1899.99 for a machine with the one year warranty included. However, so many of them (including out of country customers) wanted an option without the warranty included. So, we lowered the price (significantly) and made it an option and even began offering a two year warranty option (also customer's request).

If you do the math, you are still getting a better deal even adding the two year warranty, you are back at $1899.99 or $1599.99 with the one year option.

You have up until 90 days after purchase to add a warranty, but both are $100 more.