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bergerud
12-27-2012, 06:03 PM
I got a friend of mine to buy a C machine when they were on sale last year and so, I have had a chance to play with a Carvetight and have started to make him a dust shoe. The machine is awaiting a part and so the dust shoe prototype is yet untested. There are some differences from the dust cap I have been using. The dust shoe is a low profile dust cap. This low profile is required as the diameter of the CT with allen and washers is too large to fit into a cap. I have made a stationary bit plate which is not a problem except for 14" plus wide carving. This greatly reduces the number of parts. The bit plate could be made to fold up for those wide carvings. Even though the shoe does fit under the standard bit plate, the standard bit plate cannot swing into position without hitting the bulge of the out pipe. There are other prolems yet to be solved. For example, most of the classial bits will not fit through the hole.

Anyway, here it is so far. I will post a video when I get the machine fixed.

chief2007
12-27-2012, 06:48 PM
That looks great and would make an awesome addition to the Carvewright . If ever get to selling them let me know.

Carl H
12-27-2012, 06:55 PM
cool design, looks very promising

ladjr
12-27-2012, 06:56 PM
I agree with the chief, looks very professional. Please keep us update on your progress


Leo
Life is to short carve something today

henry1
12-27-2012, 07:51 PM
very professional I too would be interested keep us posted please

Digitalwoodshop
12-27-2012, 08:34 PM
I have been thinking about this topic too since I could better run my CW in my Laser Shop with one.... I have a bunch of FRP Plastic to cut but don't want to breath the dust... I love my metal collector but I have been wanting to change to a Shoe version.... I have a CPAP machine for Sleeping and have been looking at the MASK and Hose for a possibility.... Please post more pictures of the Bit Plate Shoe?

Thanks,

AL

b.sumner47
12-27-2012, 08:59 PM
The mine keeps working ! Looks good ! Thanks for sharing.


Capt Barry

chebytrk
12-27-2012, 09:42 PM
Count me in too. I would buy one as well.

lawrence
12-28-2012, 07:25 AM
love the concept... I have been meaning to make a version of your dust cap for some time now- that looks even better. Well done indeed

Lawrence

bergerud
12-28-2012, 11:32 AM
Thanks guys. I think this design is better for someone who uses only the carving and cutting bits (or any bit that fits through the 3/4 inch hole). The lower profile means that it is easier to see what the bit is doing under the shoe. We all like to watch. Also, the vacuum intake is closer to the board which should be better.

I have also found a way to get the hose out of the machine so that no permanent machine modifications are required.

I cannot wait for the machine part, I will find a way to test the shoe today. Video coming soon.

rcdages
12-28-2012, 01:06 PM
Looks to be a great design.

Looking forward to seeing more and I would be interested in one myself.

bergerud
12-28-2012, 03:08 PM
Here is the first test of the CT dust shoe. It seems to work! At least I did not see any dust for this shallow carve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dniOJU6JBUk

rcdages
12-28-2012, 03:12 PM
Very very nice.

ladjr
12-28-2012, 04:44 PM
Very nice. It seems to do a great job.

Sallen1215
12-28-2012, 05:15 PM
Count me in for one as well. love the concept

Digitalwoodshop
12-28-2012, 06:27 PM
Yes, Count me in for 2.... Impressive....

AL

chief2007
12-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Excellent results from what I see. Looks like a lot of interest as well.

wasacop75
12-28-2012, 09:28 PM
Like the concept.. Like the fact that it works so well. Always a need to clean up sawdust.... need a different way to do it..

easybuilt
12-28-2012, 09:46 PM
That is awesome and looks like it is doing a great job. I would buy two if you are willing to sell them.

Digitalwoodshop
12-29-2012, 02:02 PM
By George.... I think we have another "ROCK" Moment in CW History... Sure this Shoe has been developed in the past and refined to today's configuration.... I bet this would be a HOT SELLER as was the ROCK.... With LHR later expanding on it with say a Cast Aluminum Version with Acrylic...

I have always been a little "Touchy" about Static Electricity and Dust Collection... I wonder how this Shoe would do on a Litho of Corian? That would show any Static conditions.

I would buy 2.....

Good Job !!!! And the Bit Plate Modification is very nice.....

AL

ntdiver
12-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Very cool! I would be very interested in buying one as well. Doug

henry1
12-29-2012, 06:54 PM
saqme here http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon1.png
Count me in for one as well. love the concept

ladjr
12-29-2012, 06:58 PM
If you need a tester I wood love to try it.


Leo
Life is to short carve something today

chebytrk
12-29-2012, 08:33 PM
yup...... Sounds like on ol' Rock chuck moment around here. I changed my mind.... I would buy 2 !

Alan Malmstrom
12-29-2012, 09:43 PM
Yes, it looks really cool. I only wonder about the vacuum. I wouldn't be able to connect my 4 inch dust collector hose to this. Which makes me wonder if there is a smaller vacuum that would have no trouble being run for long periods of time. Any thoughts on this?

lawrence
12-29-2012, 09:59 PM
The higher-quality shop vacs have motors that are built for continuous run- my festool will run all day and night without an issue (as will the fein and several other makers)

This being said, I hear plenty of stories of folks with low quality shop vacs running them for long periods without burning them up too....

By the way, I would probably buy 2 adapters as long as it worked with the rock....

Lawrence

ladjr
12-29-2012, 10:05 PM
I agree with Lawrence. When I first got my Dust Collector fo CW I used a shop vac and had no problem.

CNC Carver
12-29-2012, 10:07 PM
Looks great would love to have one. I'll be a tester or one of the first buyers just keep us posted.

Capt Bruce
12-30-2012, 09:35 AM
One more for the INTERESTED BUYERS list. Please keep us advised. And thanks for sharing.

jaustin
12-30-2012, 10:51 AM
i'll would be interested in one also.
Could you show your vacuum setup?

bergerud
12-30-2012, 11:07 AM
Some points I would like to make which I hope will answer some of your questions:


If you want one of these one, you will have to make it yourself. It is carved on the Carvewright; I am not going to make and sell them.
This is at the early prototype stage. It may be a few weeks before I am happy enough with it to post the mpc files.
The low profile design is specifically for the CT. Using the shoe for any other chuck would require a large top hole and due to the low profile, chips would probably escape. (I do not have a Rock to test but I will see if I can test the idea with my ER16.)
The shoe (as well as the dust cap) are designed to be used with a small shop vac. In my mind, it is one of the important features of the system. The Carvewright is a small hobby machine which, I think in most cases, is not in a shop equipped with a high volume dust system. I do not think that these high volume systems will work with the shoe. Higher vacuum with lower flow is what is needed. A $20-$40 mini vac does the job.
I am hoping, since the shoe is simpler and has fewer parts than the dust cap, that some of you members will carve it. It could be carved out of wood but the cast acrylic is very nice. Get some 1/4" and 1/2" thick cast acrylic from your local plastics store and experiment with it.

chief2007
12-30-2012, 11:20 AM
Sounds like a great carving experience! Look forward to giving it a try.

Capt Bruce
12-30-2012, 12:16 PM
We'll be standing by to carve when you can share the design MPC Bergerud. Thanks on behalf of everyone here.

bergerud
12-30-2012, 02:09 PM
By the way, I would probably buy 2 adapters as long as it worked with the rock....
Lawrence

How big would the hole have to be for the Rock (and allen head?) to fit through?

ladjr
12-30-2012, 05:41 PM
That is great that we can make it ourselves. Please keep us update on your progress.


Leo
Life is to short carve something today

CNC Carver
12-30-2012, 06:28 PM
Would it be better to have to port hole for the vaccum hose on the other front side to stay out of the way of the bit plate?

bergerud
12-30-2012, 07:16 PM
Would it be better to have to port hole for the vaccum hose on the other front side to stay out of the way of the bit plate?

I do not think it is possible to move the port hole even 1/16 of an inch from where it is. It is all very tight. The main challenge in making this thing is to squeeze it into the very small amount of free space. Look at the video and note how close the out pipe comes to the machine at the ends of travel.

CNC Carver
12-30-2012, 07:27 PM
Yes I see that now. Sorry I didn't think the keyboard side space restrictions out.

JLT
12-31-2012, 06:52 PM
How big would the hole have to be for the Rock (and allen head?) to fit through?

I have one of the original Rock's (1/4" shank size). With calipers, I measure 1.05" diameter for the base. With the allen head tightened on the carving bit, I measure just shy of 1.10" across, so the allen head sticks out 0.05". So with the allen head, the spin diameter would be 1.15"...

bergerud
12-31-2012, 08:00 PM
Thanks JLT. I guess the hole would need to be 1.25" to have some clearance. That is big.

lawrence
12-31-2012, 08:52 PM
Thanks for responding JLT- I am under the weather and just didnt' get to it today...

Lawrence

bergerud
12-31-2012, 11:03 PM
Here is a test of the shoe with a 1 inch hole in the top. As you will see in the video, there are quite a few large chips shooting out the hole. It still gets most of it. I think it looks worse than it is. The larger hole not only provides more escape directions, but it also causes a decrease in air velocity. A small hole has a higher velocity flowing in. (I have not seen these large chips escaping form the CT shoe with the small hole, but I also have not carved much with it yet.)

I disconnect the vacuum part way through so that one can see what is actually being removed.

http://youtu.be/2lmrt363Ra8

b.sumner47
12-31-2012, 11:50 PM
Quite a difference when you withdraw the suction ,works good. Thanks for sharing.


Capt Barry

Sallen1215
01-01-2013, 12:24 AM
Do you have any corian or cast acrylic so we can see a demo of a Litho to see the ultimate in dust and static cling test?

bergerud
01-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Do you have any corian or cast acrylic so we can see a demo of a Litho to see the ultimate in dust and static cling test?

Ok, here is a cast acrylic carve. It is actually the out pipe halves being carved. I have never carved corian.

Again, I removed the vacuum so one can see that there really is stuff to vacuum! (Make sure and watch it once and a half so you can really compare with and without vacuum and do not finish with that last messy image in your mind!)

http://youtu.be/Nxzi8O_SIE8

easybuilt
01-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Thank you so much, it looks great!!
I am looking forward to your final design for use with the rock. Stan and I am going to make three for our users group to try out.

Sallen1215
01-01-2013, 01:21 PM
Thank you Bergerud for the video of acrylic, i think it works great and cant wait to try it out

Digitalwoodshop
01-01-2013, 06:03 PM
Excellent Videos... I was wondering if....

1. A Iris type upper ring could be designed into the top that would act like the round shutter on a old Film Camera..... That would let you select the Iris size depending on the bit.....

2. Different size Round Inserts with different size center holes depending on the bit and chuck....

3. Could paint brush like fingers be fashioned around the top hole to slow down the chips exiting and let in air... Even 3 sided to let the Bit Plate Tang make it without bumping....

Thinking out loud..... I love the concept... I need to bring one of my machines into the Laser Shop and start by making a Plastic Bit Plate TANG.... Then work on some similar ideas for the shoe....

Any chance of pictures of your bit plate tang and how you mounted it....

I guess the first step for me is to Zero out the Z with a bit in the chuck at top dead center or up against the top Z Pin. Then measure down to the Bit Plate and get that number and use that number to design the location of the bit plate tang in Z.

This is Exciting...

AL

bergerud
01-01-2013, 07:14 PM
Here is the bit plate Al. It is sort of a press fit into the casting and on the pin which holds the original bit plate. I press it all the way up (timming may be necessary) as for as it will go and then use the original washers and clip to hold it on. It is slightly higher than the original plate but I do not think it matters. The C machines, I think, may be more sensitive to this and that is why I cut it a little lower.

The bit plate is not retractable and so one can only do 14 inch wide carves instead of 14.5 . (It could be made to fold up.) If you do not ever do the 14.5 wide carves, the bit plate may be a good replacement for the standard one even without the shoe. Always there - no thwacking.

As for the removable top, that is what I have on the Dust Cap. This CT Shoe is sort of the poor man's Dust Cap. Small bits and no scanner.

It is really important to have either a small top hole (or a hole that fits the the chuck as in my Dust Cap) and so I am afraid that the shoe will never be as good with the Rock as it is with the CT.

Edit: This bit plate can break if the machine measures the wrong bit length and pushes too hard.

CNC Carver
01-01-2013, 07:34 PM
Dan thanks for sharing the bit plate looking forward to more dust shoe details.
THANKS!
Jeff

lawrence
01-01-2013, 07:57 PM
Your efforts on this have been both encouraging and exciting. Thank you for both taking the time to do this and to post your results

Lawrence

jaroot
01-01-2013, 08:34 PM
It does look real interesting. I've downloaded the mcps for the cap but never got around to carving it. This looks a little more interesting to me so maybe if/when I get our machine's electrical issues resolved I'll give it a try.

Digitalwoodshop
01-01-2013, 08:58 PM
WOW the Bit Plate mpc.... That is GREAT !!!!! Thank YOU.... That is half the battle.....

I am even thinking of setting up a dust shoe for just my very long 1/16th inch cutting bit that I cut from a 6 inch long 1/16th end mill for my Rotary Engraver. It would be left long so the ROCK would not get close to the shoe IF my Guess is correct.... Either at the Bit Plate, Left side bob down at the key pad, or cutting out the Tags.... It's the FRP plastic dust I am worried about....

I would set up one machine to do just plastic cut out of the tags.

I am wondering if the CPAP plastic mask I use at night with the rubber hose would work..... The Forehead part might work under the Board Sensor....

http://www.cpapsupplyusa.com/Respironics-Profile-Lite-CPAP-Mask-Headgear-1004x-47.aspx


THANK YOU !!!!

AL

jaustin
01-01-2013, 09:24 PM
what is the benefit of the bit plate mod?

bergerud
01-01-2013, 09:31 PM
what is the benefit of the bit plate mod?

The original bit plate hits the shoe when it swings out. One could use the original bit plate if one made it swing out sooner or if one jammed it to stay out as some members do.

jaustin
01-01-2013, 09:37 PM
thanks, went back and reread your original post and guess I missed it the first time.

bergerud
01-01-2013, 09:38 PM
I am even thinking of setting up a dust shoe for just my very long 1/16th inch cutting bit that I cut from a 6 inch long 1/16th end mill for my Rotary Engraver. It would be left long so the ROCK would not get close to the shoe IF my Guess is correct.... Either at the Bit Plate, Left side bob down at the key pad, or cutting out the Tags.... It's the FRP plastic dust I am worried about....


That might just work Al. The CT stops 1/2 inch above the board. That is where the shoe lives. If your bit keeps the Rock above the 1/2 inch, it would work. With a small hole on top and and a brush underneath, there would be no escape.

keninar
01-01-2013, 10:37 PM
Have been following this thread with great interest. Thanks for sharing your concept and progress. In watching the first carving video, I noticed something on the Z-truck that is not on mine (CT model):

58440
Is this machine an earlier model? Or is the brass "plug" a modification you have made?

Thanks again for sharing your project and progress.

Ken

bergerud
01-01-2013, 10:52 PM
Have been following this thread with great interest. Thanks for sharing your concept and progress. In watching the first carving video, I noticed something on the Z-truck that is not on mine (CT model):

Ken

That is a lock button that I made to lock the spindle. If you look closer you will see that the spindle is an ER16 collect type spindle which uses a special wrench to tighten. The button eliminates needing a second wrench.

keninar
01-01-2013, 10:55 PM
Got it!

Thanks!

DickB
01-02-2013, 11:13 AM
Cool to see this being worked again. As you may recall, I did a bunch of work on a different take on the dust cap:
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19310-Dust-cap-modifications
(http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19310-Dust-cap-modifications)
One of the problems that we face is the proximity of the bottom of the dust cap or shoe to the top of the board. If you look at dust shoes for bigger CNC machines, they typically use bristles that are several inches long. This permits the bristles to flex and seal much better than very short bristles. My most popular products are lake maps with depth contours as deep as .5" and more, and with large carve regions. So when carving there is a lot of open space that has been carved. To effectively seal from 0" down to .5" I think would require a bristle at least 1" tall and even more. I was not able to get a good seal on these deep carves with the short bristles that would fit, and the heavier chips with more mass and momentum just flew under and were not drawn into the vacuum. Not sure how to overcome this problem.

bergerud
01-02-2013, 12:10 PM
One of the problems that we face is the proximity of the bottom of the dust cap or shoe to the top of the board. If you look at dust shoes for bigger CNC machines, they typically use bristles that are several inches long. This permits the bristles to flex and seal much better than very short bristles. My most popular products are lake maps with depth contours as deep as .5" and more, and with large carve regions. So when carving there is a lot of open space that has been carved. To effectively seal from 0" down to .5" I think would require a bristle at least 1" tall and even more. I was not able to get a good seal on these deep carves with the short bristles that would fit, and the heavier chips with more mass and momentum just flew under and were not drawn into the vacuum. Not sure how to overcome this problem.

I have not found the chips escaping out the bottom to be a problem except on deep milling or edge routing operations. The carving bit throws the chips up right at the pipe. As long as there is not vacuum loss from above (big hole) and the brush blocks the horizontal path out below, very little seems to escape. To me, the stuff escaping out the bigger holes is the main problem.

You will have to carve one of these because I look forward to your analysis.

bergerud
01-02-2013, 08:53 PM
After hearing Al's thoughts and thinking about the Rock users, I changed the design to have a removable top. This has quite a few advantages which, I think, justifies the extra part.

First, the top is the part you look through. It can be made of a separate clear material and is easy to clean or replace.

Second, the rest of the shoe can now be made out of any material you want, like say - wood!

Third, large bits can be used by either removing the top or by using a top with a larger hole.

Last and not least, Al's idea of carving with a long bit gave me an idea for the Rock users. As Al says, a small hole could be used for thin boards where the Rock stays above the shoe during the bobs and carve. Even for normal carves, the Rock could stay above the shoe during the carve and so, for long carves, it could be worth it to pop a small hole top in after the carve starts. (Note that CT users have no such problems since the CT always stays above the shoe. The top could even be be glued on for CT users who only use the two bits.)

A note about the bit plate: the tip of the bit plate I prematurely uploaded to the forum just broke on my machine. It seems that when the machine finds disagreement as to bit length, it pushes harder on the second touch. Snap - into the bilge. The thin tip is no good.

Someday, I may start from scratch and try to better the design. Curved surfaces and such. For now, this is pretty well it. There is some hand carving to do. The dust port as carved by the machine needs to be "ported" using a Dremel. Here is the main body (prematurely posted to be sure) so that you can think about carving it. The file is split into two parts as it is better to carve it as two projects. Do the top first (it is on the rear) and then the bottom. If you do a double sided carve, there will be four full height tabs which are a pain to clean up. (This is because the cut path on the bottom cuts into a carve region on the top and the machine defaults to full height tabs.)

I am still working on the bearing cap. There, the tabs have disappeared!

There are some differences between B and C machines. The bottom of the carriage on the C is now flat where before there it sloped up in the front. Also, the new board sensor has some extra plastic bosses around the screw holes. I made this to fit a C machine. Some changes can be made for A and B but it should fit. So go ahead and carve this out of wood. Dry run; see how the carves line up, see how it fits.

keninar
01-02-2013, 09:05 PM
Most interesting project. Took a look at the dustcap body top file - and am I missing something - is there supposed to by an outline cutout of this piece?

this is what I see in Designer:

58490

did I miss a key step?

Thanks for sharing this intriguing project.

ken

bergerud
01-02-2013, 09:27 PM
Most interesting project. Took a look at the dustcap body top file - and am I missing something - is there supposed to by an outline cutout of this piece?

this is what I see in Designer:

did I miss a key step?

Thanks for sharing this intriguing project.

ken

That is only one side. Look at the double side mpc and see how they fit together. The idea is to carve the top and then flip it over and carve the bottom. The cut out happens in the bottom.

keninar
01-02-2013, 09:32 PM
Thanks for the response. Realized it was a 2-sided carve. here's the front:

58492

and the reverse
58493

Shouldn't there be an outline? (perimeter cutout) or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks for your patience.

bergerud
01-02-2013, 09:41 PM
The two sided carve is split into two files. The one you are looking at is the back of the double sided carve which would be carved first. The other file is the front of the carve and it has the cutout. Even though the one you are looking at has the carve on the back, it will carve as if it was on the front of the board since the actual front has nothing on it. Now I am confusing myself! (I was going to move it to the front but why risk error since it will carve as if it were on the front.)

I hope this helps!

lawrence
01-02-2013, 10:08 PM
I'm definitely going to be carving this - (I hope this weekend?) THANK YOU for the work you've put into this project, not just for your machine, but for others' as well.

Thank you again,
Lawrence

keninar
01-02-2013, 10:10 PM
Ok. That makes sense now (I think!)
Let me take another look at it and give it a carve.
Thanks and will let you know the results.
Ken

Sallen1215
01-03-2013, 12:49 AM
Bergerud thank you for the design principles of this, my machine i removed the rear cover so i can move the bit plate by hand so that may be my best option here.... Love the engineering you put into this and surprised your not marketing it. But i am most appreciative.

CNC Carver
01-03-2013, 06:17 AM
Dan thanks for all your hard work on this and for sharing it for forum members to us is great.

bergerud
01-03-2013, 10:00 AM
my machine i removed the rear cover so i can move the bit plate by hand so that may be my best option here....

I would be a little wary of using the original bit plate. It may need to be bent up a little, which is ok but, it may also have to move a little and I worry about the carriage hitting the end of it. It may also let the carriage move a little too far to the right. The bit plate I made also changes the carriage travel.

bergerud
01-03-2013, 11:06 AM
Henry wanted to know about the hose. The hose I use is Laguna PT 805 1/2 inch pond hose that I found at the local hardware store.

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/ponds-and-supplies/c83534/p9612868.html

I was hoping the someone would find some better hose. There are a lot of hoses out there. Not so many 1/2 or 5/8 inch though. We ideally would like 5/8 ID clear, smooth bore, wire reinforced, antistatic, flexible hose. Some experimenting and product research is required here.

As to how to get the hose out of the machine, I like my way where the hose comes out a hole I drilled in the front. The hose is short and it is convenient to connect the vacuum. I have found another way out which does not require any machine modifications (see pictures). The hose goes down behind the right hand cover, has a loop and then goes up and out the hole under the handle. This is the method I recommend while you experiment with the Shoe. This is opposite to the way I have my hose and it has the disadvantage that the hose is longer and it is vertical at the Shoe when the carriage is to the left. This means that the bearing moves more during carving that the other way around. If you later decide you like the Shoe, you might want to make a hole somewhere.

henry1
01-03-2013, 11:14 AM
Thx bergerud got me thinking now I will carve it soon I have 1/2 plexsie glass and 1/4 also have to make a sled now thx for all the info

bergerud
01-03-2013, 11:17 AM
The bearing I have been using is an RC car bearing R1212- 2RS (1/2 X 3/4 X 5/32). I bought a bag full on ebay. The seals, however, are not good enough to keep out the dust (go figure!) and they do require maintenance to keep spinning free. I have seen reference to an R1212 - DD bearing which is supposed to have tight seals. We will have to find a supplier of these or similar bearings. (Who knows, if we find a super hose, we may not need a bearing at all.) For now, just find any R1212 bearing.

bergerud
01-03-2013, 11:19 AM
Thx bergerud got me thinking now I will carve it soon I have 1/2 plexsie glass and 1/4 also have to make a sled now thx for all the info

I would carve the parts out of wood first Henry. (By "plexsie glass", I hope you mean cast acrylic.)

henry1
01-03-2013, 11:56 AM
I did mean cast acrylic, got plenty here,, like you said I will carve it in wood first

Digitalwoodshop
01-03-2013, 01:42 PM
WOW, this is a GREAT PLACE..... Outstanding Prototype and mpc's... WOW....

Thanks,

AL

bergerud
01-03-2013, 02:34 PM
Thanks for the good ideas Al. This is a great place!

Digitalwoodshop
01-03-2013, 07:36 PM
All this talking to myself has finally paid off... LOL...

AL

Sallen1215
01-03-2013, 08:42 PM
Ok maybe i am just not seeing this, Dan can you explain the process.. of how your two sided carve in two files work? If possible which file to use and when to flip the piece just a step by step if possible

bergerud
01-03-2013, 09:40 PM
The first carve is the top of the shoe (which is the back of the board in the double sided carve) then flip and carve the bottom of the shoe (which is the front of the board in the double sided carve). For the top, I deleted the front of the board and for the bottom, I deleted the back of the board.

The confusion here is because the top of the shoe is on the back of a board. Seems like the wrong place to be. There is a lesson to learned here. It is obvious that if you delete the back of a double sided carve, you get a single sided carve. What may not be so obvious is if you delete the front of a double sided carve, you also just get a single sided carve. The fact that it is on the back only seems strange; it will upload and carve the same as if it were on the front.

I do this splitting of double sided carves all the time and I did not realize it would be confusing.

Sallen1215
01-03-2013, 10:05 PM
Just out of the normal, plus i saw holes all the way through, Now is all of this carving done on 1 4x4 x .5 in material? or is it two halves that get glued together? i swear im smart but this sounds like im a moron

bergerud
01-03-2013, 11:05 PM
Just out of the normal, plus i saw holes all the way through, Now is all of this carving done on 1 4x4 x .5 in material? or is it two halves that get glued together?

It is not so complicated. I carve it out of one 3 X 4 X 1/2 inch piece in the middle of a carrier board. Carve the top of the shoe and flip the whole thing over and carve then carve the bottom. (The reason for the complicated two file carve is just to avoid the full height tabs which the software will put in if it "knows" what is on the other side. One could simply do the double sided carve and live with the big tabs.)

I am sorry that I did not fix these problems to simplify the process.

I did not pay much attention to process as long as I could get it carved. Instead of trying to fix the tab problem, I moved on to work on the next part.

Sallen1215
01-03-2013, 11:06 PM
That makes more sense to me now, just needed to know if and when to flip the piece

bergerud
01-03-2013, 11:32 PM
I should also have mentioned that the bottom carve will call for the 1/16 cutting bit. This is only to cut the shallow slot for the brush. The 1/16 carving bit can be used if you do not have the 1/16 cutting bit. The slot will be a little tapered but that is ok.

liquidguitars
01-04-2013, 12:15 AM
Very cool!

bergerud
01-04-2013, 04:17 AM
Thanks LG. Are you going to make one? It is early prototype. The mpcs are a mess with tab problems and so on. It will take awhile to get it all right. If you have a CT, you might want to give this a try.

bergerud
01-04-2013, 11:57 AM
Here is the bearing cap. It is a straight forward double sided carve for which you need at least a 2X2X1/2 inch piece of material (in or on a sled). There is a hitch though. The tabs you see on the mpc do not carve. I have not figured out why yet. (I used puffing so it may be a bug.) You just have to keep your finger on the stop button near the end of the carve and stop when it drops out.

It is important that the bearing hole get carved to the proper depth both for the body and the cap. To this end, I set the default JOG TO TOUCH (OFF) to (ON). I have carrier boards which are exactly 1/2 inch thick. On the back sides (where the bearing holes are) I jog to touch about where they will be carved. On the front sides, depth is not so important, I just let it touch on the carrier board. (My cast acylic is 12mm and not quite 1/2 inch so I do not want to touch on the second side.)

After cleaning up the edges of the cap and making sure the bearing fits, you have to glue it on. (If you are making it out of cast acylic, you need a solvent cement like Weld-on #16.) I glue it on with the bearing in place while holding the shoe vertical against a horizontal flat surface.

After the glue has set you will have to "port " the shoe. That is, hand carve the out port hole with a Dermel. Make it as big and as smooth as possible without going too far down into the brush slot. Stay away from the thin top edge of the cap where the top will slide under.

bergerud
01-04-2013, 12:10 PM
I would like to emphasize that the Shoe does not have to be carved out of cast acrylic. (Especially at this prototype stage.) Here are some examples of some shoes I have carved. One only really needs the top window to be made out of 1/16 inch thick clear plastic. I think the oak shoe below would be just fine.

liquidguitars
01-04-2013, 02:12 PM
Yes I was thinking that it would be fun, any idea if this will work with the Rock?

bergerud
01-04-2013, 02:48 PM
Yes I was thinking that it would be fun, any idea if this will work with the Rock?

Unfortunately, the QC and the Rock come down too close the board during the measuring bobs. These chucks have to go through the shoe. This means there will be the extra annoying step of removing the window for the bobs and replacing the window for the carves. I have made the window removable so that we can at least give these chucks a try. I have to say that it is really for the CT.

Sallen1215
01-04-2013, 05:05 PM
So i only now have one problem, i do not have the Carvewright 3D tools so i cannot carve the bearing cap :( I really hate being the pain in the butt in this thread

bergerud
01-04-2013, 05:11 PM
I think I am finished with making a dust shoe for my friend's C machine. It seems to work pretty well. It is not quite as good as the dust cap I use with the ER spindle. I think that having the chuck itself in the cap spinning at 20000 rpm dramatically increases the vortex which sucks up the chips from the bottom and throws them to the outside away from the hole.

Here is yet another video of the shoe in action carving the pipe part out of 1/2 cast acrylic. Note the nice clear, removable window the a small hole.

http://youtu.be/UUDD1R_GxeQ

bergerud
01-04-2013, 05:15 PM
So i only now have one problem, i do not have the Carvewright 3D tools so i cannot carve the bearing cap :( I really hate being the pain in the butt in this thread

Are you sure? I made the puffing stuff into patterns so that this would not happen.

Edit: you are right but it is only because I left the original bubble hidden in case I wanted to edit it. Here is the file again without the 3D puff. Thanks for catching that.

Sallen1215
01-04-2013, 05:20 PM
Ok i got it this time, there is a hidden profile that you used that is still in the mpc, once i deleted it then it would upload no problem

Sallen1215
01-04-2013, 11:24 PM
58572 My attempt in mdf ( test before using good stuff) other than a bit slippage on my part ( hence the center not drilled out and the mount holes) it all worked very well

bergerud
01-05-2013, 12:06 AM
Cool. Thanks for posting your progress. I am sure your work will inspire others to get into it this weekend.

henry1
01-05-2013, 09:15 AM
The size of the bearing that fits in it can't seem to find it I am blind lol would you post it again I am working On it now

Capt Bruce
01-05-2013, 10:05 AM
Are you sure? I made the puffing stuff into patterns so that this would not happen.

Edit: you are right but it is only because I left the original bubble hidden in case I wanted to edit it. Here is the file again without the 3D puff. Thanks for catching that.

Thanks for doing the edit Bergerud,

I was about to give up since I don't own the new software yet. This looks very promising especially when I have to take the machine on the road for a demonstration without my attached full size DC system. You keep adding to our system improvements all the time with your kind contibutions and it is very much appreciated even if we don't say it often enough.

bergerud
01-05-2013, 10:08 AM
The bearing is R1212 RC car bearing (1/2 X 3/4 X 5/32). The is also a router bit bearing that is 1/2 X3/4 X 3/16 but they only have shields and not seals.

bergerud
01-05-2013, 10:12 AM
Thanks Capt. , I just want to see a picture of this thing on your machine!

bergerud
01-05-2013, 02:34 PM
The pipe is the last main part to make. It is a double sided carve which requires some accuracy. I always feel lucky when it carves ok. The two halves of the pipe are carved from both sides with a thin layer left between the sides instead of tabs. The thin layer makes it easier to cut out and glue. It is important that the thickness is exactly 1/2 inch. (It may be the carrier board that you make exactly 1/2 inch and touch to it instead of the 3 X 3 piece.)

After carving it, cut out the pipe halves by cutting out the outside perimeter of the carve leaving a skirt around the pipe halves. Clean up the bearing end and get it to fit snugly in the bearing by using a file to file down the under surface. Apply glue to the skirts and clamp together. Use the bearing as a clamp. Sand off the skirt (leave it a little proud) and cut out the hole in the end.

henry1
01-05-2013, 02:54 PM
The pipe is the last main part to make. It is a double sided carve which requires some accuracy. I always feel lucky when it carves ok. The two halves of the pipe are carved from both sides with a thin layer left between the sides instead of tabs. The thin layer makes it easier to cut out and glue. It is important that the thickness is exactly 1/2 inch. (It may be the carrier board that you make exactly 1/2 inch and touch to it instead of the 3 X 3 piece.)

After carving it, cut out the pipe halves by cutting out the outside perimeter of the carve leaving a skirt around the pipe halves. Clean up the bearing end and get it to fit snugly in the bearing by using a file to file down the under surface. Apply glue to the skirts and clamp together. Use the bearing as a clamp. Sand off the skirt (leave it a little proud) and cut out the hole in the end.
Hey bergerud were did you manage to to find the screws that hold the plate up in place they are metric and what lenght you needed

chief2007
01-05-2013, 02:56 PM
The bearing is R1212 RC car bearing (1/2 X 3/4 X 5/32). The is also a router bit bearing that is 1/2 X3/4 X 3/16 but they only have shields and not seals.

Bergerud,

Look at this link for the bearing - it is a sealed bearing - do you think it would work? http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit821
(http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit821)
Here is another link http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/318/12-x-34-x-532-Rubber-R1212-2RS-bearings.html

bergerud
01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
It is the right size. Here is another link to a cheaper one. Neither has good enough seals for our dust situation. The ideal would be R1212 - DD but I have not been able to locate them yet. (In fact I emailed VBX looking for the DD.) So, for now, any 1/2 X 3/4 X 5/32 will have to do.

http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/318/12-x-34-Rubber-R1212-2RS-bearings.html

bergerud
01-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Hey bergerud were did you manage to to find the screws that hold the plate up in place they are metric and what lenght you needed

The screws are 3m I believe and they need to be about 1.5cm long. (I just find stuff like that in my junk piles!) The original screws are only around 0.75cm long.

henry1
01-05-2013, 03:29 PM
thank you I will post soon the parts parts I just made this is getting very intresting

bergerud
01-05-2013, 04:49 PM
The window is the top of the shoe and is the most important part to be transparent. It can be as simple as a plastic washer or a little fancy with a cup glued in the center. The first ones I made milling 1/4 inch cast acrylic. This is poor because it takes some wet sanding and polishing to get it clear after milling. Next I tried to simply cut it out of 1/16 acrylic (not cast) with a 1/16 cutting bit (2 flute). I had my finger on the stop button expecting a melt but it worked. Very simple, use double sided tape to hold the a 2X2 inch piece on top of a board. (Stick the double sided tape to the protective plastic not the acrylic itself!) You may find your own way.

For the QC and the Rock, these windows have to be easily removable. Something to think about later. I put a small screw in the shoe and a small notch in the window edge. The window slips under the bearing cap overhang and the notch slips past the screw. A little twist and the window is on. One could also just make it a press fit.

For the CT, one would not be removing the window very often and so the screw works for it. I also made a little insert to reduce the window hole to a minimum while still leaving space for the bit adapter to fit through. It is milled from 1/4 cast acrylic. (One could cut and paste it onto the bit plate mpc and mill it at the same time.)

Here is a picture of it all done.

bergerud
01-05-2013, 05:09 PM
Last but not least is the brush. It is very important to block the horizontal escape route for the chips. I use window seals that I got from the local glass shop. They are the same as some door brushes. The brush is only 1/4 inch long which is almost too long. There are two rows of bristles imbedded in a fiberglass like backing. You only need one row. I used the scissors in my Swiss army knife to carefully it out. A bit tedious. If you used the 1/16 cutting bit to cut out the slot in the shoe, you can press fit the brush in with a small watch screw driver. Just work your way around twice. If you used the carving bit, you will have to glue it in.

radman5506
01-05-2013, 05:12 PM
bergerud this project is just awsome, this WILL be my next project.
Question: I have read almost all of your posts on this and the Dust Cap, did I miss instructions on how this dust shoe is attached. As best I can tell it is attached with the screws that are on either side of the Board Sensor. How difficult is it to access these screws and what Kind of head do they have on them. Again I am so looking forward to this.
Tom

bergerud
01-05-2013, 06:31 PM
bergerud this project is just awsome, this WILL be my next project.
Question: I have read almost all of your posts on this and the Dust Cap, did I miss instructions on how this dust shoe is attached. As best I can tell it is attached with the screws that are on either side of the Board Sensor. How difficult is it to access these screws and what Kind of head do they have on them. Again I am so looking forward to this.
Tom

There are two short screws holding on the board sensor. These screws are easily accessible Phillips head screws. You need a stubby screwdriver. The shoe fits over the board sensor and uses the same screw holes with longer screws.

henry1
01-05-2013, 08:52 PM
here is the trail run now is to wait for the bearing and get the hose,, end for the hose and carve the shoe in clear acrylic and get longer screws also the bit plate how big of a job to take that apart never done it yet

bergerud
01-05-2013, 09:05 PM
Looking good Henry.

chief2007
01-05-2013, 09:08 PM
Looks good Henry, I getting ready to carve mine soon as well.

henry1
01-05-2013, 09:25 PM
Looking good Henry.
Bit plate big job to take apart

bergerud
01-05-2013, 09:34 PM
also the bit plate how big of a job to take that apart never done it yet

One has to take off the right side cover (two 10mm bolts on the post tops and two screws on the bottom). Then the lockdown clamp arm has to be dropped down away from the bit plate (three allen screws). Pop off a C clip and the old bit plate drops off. The new bit plate fits on the same pin but also fits snugly into the cavity in the casting. One may have to sand the edges of the bit plate to get it to fit all the way up. Then put on the washers and C clip that were on the old bit plate and put back the lockdown clamp arm.

I changed the bit plate to have a hole for the touch instead of a ledge. (see the mpc.) The ledge was not stong enough for the occasional "hard" touch.

The bottom edge of the end of the bit plate (under the new touch hole) has to be rounded so that it does not catch on the shoe when the shoe slides under. (It is easier to round it by hand then to have the machine carve it in a double sided operation.)

radman5506
01-05-2013, 09:37 PM
Thanks bergerud, I am going to start carving tomorrow. Going to try it in MDF as I am waiting for my acylic to come in. Henry looks like you really have got it going, Great Job!

henry1
01-05-2013, 11:36 PM
Thank you for all your help appreciated

Sallen1215
01-09-2013, 11:18 PM
Ok so after i carved a sucessful one in MDF (see an above post) i then turned my sights onto cast acylic.. as the project was proceeding i didnt watch it as close as i guess i should have because the first part carved fine however as you can see the rear of the first carve somehow got out of line but yet never moved because the project was in a carrier sled with double sided tape and press fit into the sled pocket. After i noticed what happened i stopped the project and this is what i ended up with58761 so this one i figured something odd could have happened but who knows so i stopped peeled the tack paper off the clear acrylic and started over... this time i carved the project again on a new piece of acrylic and in the same exact place it put the rear carve out of position like the next photo shows
58762 is there something i am missing? here is the MPC i am using which is not altered in any way from the origional 58763

bergerud
01-09-2013, 11:53 PM
The holes are drilled in the right places, it is the carving before that that is off. It looks like a y belt slip. There is a slight plunge as the bit dives down to carve the area that fits under the carriage. That is were the shift happened. I noticed my machine labor at that point. Are you using a new bit? Is your y belt tight? Were you carving on ultimate? (I have been carving on ultimate with a new carving bit.)

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 12:00 AM
I was carving on optimum and the bit should have been fine. Less than 30 hours on it. Not sure why it did it on both carves.. thinking about reloading the project on the card and rebooting machine and test just the rear carrige mount area to see if it may be just a "bug" in the system.

bergerud
01-10-2013, 12:14 AM
It is the plunge, I am sure. You could alter the mpc by adding a little feather to ease the plunge. About bits, I was told by this old guy at the plastic shop to always use new bits on cast acrylic and so I do. Nothing like that new sharp edge. Still, I have had my share of y slips.

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 12:22 AM
I will try to add some small feather but i also need to look and make sure no chips got into the y belt or anything like that. One thing that did seem to keep happening was when it asked for the cutting bit it then would show an y stall error so i just made a new mpc for cutting just the 1/8 bit cuts and drills.

bergerud
01-10-2013, 12:26 AM
If I were you, I would check the y belt tension. Loosen the screw and let the spring reset the tension. If you notice it get a little tighter, that might be it.

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 12:28 AM
The odd thing is that its only the first carve that gets off in the Y the reverse side works perfectly which is the second carve

bergerud
01-10-2013, 12:29 AM
One thing that did seem to keep happening was when it asked for the cutting bit it then would show an y stall error so i just made a new mpc for cutting just the 1/8 bit cuts and drills.

That makes sense. If the y slipped on the carve, the machine would not notice until the bit change and then report the y slip.

henry1
01-10-2013, 02:56 AM
Ok so after i carved a sucessful one in MDF (see an above post) i then turned my sights onto cast acylic.. as the project was proceeding i didnt watch it as close as i guess i should have because the first part carved fine however as you can see the rear of the first carve somehow got out of line but yet never moved because the project was in a carrier sled with double sided tape and press fit into the sled pocket. After i noticed what happened i stopped the project and this is what i ended up with58761 so this one i figured something odd could have happened but who knows so i stopped peeled the tack paper off the clear acrylic and started over... this time i carved the project again on a new piece of acrylic and in the same exact place it put the rear carve out of position like the next photo shows
58762 is there something i am missing? here is the MPC i am using which is not altered in any way from the origional 58763
I had the same problem as you when carving, because I did not have new bit it screwed up my Z motor, the little disk at back moved I am back and running again I will start again today will post results

henry1
01-10-2013, 09:39 AM
well here is my 2 finish acrylic and doing the cap now and waiting on my bearing and hose I ordered

bergerud
01-10-2013, 10:05 AM
Nice work Henry. I am happy to see it coming along. Is there any one else giving this a try?

Digitalwoodshop
01-10-2013, 11:08 AM
And remember the machine is designed to cut WOOD not Plastic... So special rules apply for plastic....

1. Only CAST Acrylic, Extruded is Cheaper and will melt and stick to the bit and snap the bit or truck.

2. You want to use the best setting to SLOW down the cutting process to give the bit a chance to actually cut the plastic...

3. That 30 hour bit has already lost it's advantage for PLASTIC.... It is really DULL for plastic... OK for Wood...

4. IF your Y Gearbox is worn or not in Excellent Condition, the SIDE FORCE of being asked to carve ACRYLIC will cause it to loose it's Home Position or skip some teeth... and it is not the rubber belt teeth.... It's the Teeth on the SERVO MOTOR that slip as the STRESS of Cutting pull the Big Plastic GEAR AWAY from the Servo Motor SHAFT.... Because the ENCODER is STILL CORRECT, but the BIG Gear has slipped.... When the project ends, sometimes you get a Y STALL when the Y goes HOME and HITS the Keypad Side BEFORE IT EXPECTS IT.... AS in the teeth have sliped....

And watch using the Yellow Attachments or the numbers or position of the art on the project. IF you have numbers Restrained and flip the board and the RESTRAINT is incorrect for the size of the actual board, it can PULL the Holes OFF because you said that the restrained number is the most important thing in the world.... So what if the board is a slightly different size.... Measure from this EDGE... Even if it is wrong and will move the holes off of what is expected.


AL (Grumpy....)

henry1
01-10-2013, 12:17 PM
The pipe setting had to be altered the first one depth the second one changes I am running a B machine also had to shorthen the lenght of the bit also I am running the RC chuck are you running the carvetight bergerud

henry1
01-10-2013, 12:24 PM
Here is the one that turned out ok

henry1
01-10-2013, 12:30 PM
Had to show what it did bergerud went in to deep

bergerud
01-10-2013, 12:36 PM
I do not understand exactly what you are saying Henry. I have an ER16 spindle, but that should not matter. The pipe is a standard double sided carve. It does, however, require accuracy in every direction. More that 1/64 off and and the pipe is no good. You must have some other issue. There should not be anything wrong or needing altering on the mpc.

You have to make sure that the piece is exactly 1/2" thick and that the machine touches the bit on each surface. (I use the jog to touch.)

bergerud
01-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Had to show what it did bergerud went in to deep

What is the thickness if the acrylic? 12mm or 1/2" ?

henry1
01-10-2013, 12:43 PM
exactly 1/2 I used a micro gage and I did not jog the mchine it work out ok some trimming but that ok the wood I put it in exactly 1/2 sled

henry1
01-10-2013, 12:46 PM
I do not understand exactly what you are saying Henry. I have an ER16 spindle, but that should not matter. The pipe is a standard double sided carve. It does, however, require accuracy in every direction. More that 1/64 off and and the pipe is no good. You must have some other issue. There should not be anything wrong or needing altering on the mpc.

You have to make sure that the piece is exactly 1/2" thick and that the machine touches the bit on each surface. (I use the jog to touch.)
I never jog it were you go to jog or is there a write up on this never used it

bergerud
01-10-2013, 01:13 PM
Jog to touch is a user option on the machine itself. 0 - 5 on the keypad. The default is (off), I always have it (on). With it on, the machine pauses and lets you choose where you want the surface of the board to be measured. Instead of touching on the sled, for example, you can touch on the board itself.

henry1
01-10-2013, 02:40 PM
Jog to touch is a user option on the machine itself. 0 - 5 on the keypad. The default is (off), I always have it (on). With it on, the machine pauses and lets you choose where you want the surface of the board to be measured. Instead of touching on the sled, for example, you can touch on the board itself.
Thank you now I know I got my hose today tomorow I go get the bearing they in the usa P.O. thx for the help

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 09:54 PM
Dan i have to agree with Henry on this one, the pipe MPC didn't work for me either but i know it is because my acrylic is not quite 1/2 inch and that makes a huge difference as my pipes finished carving and there was nothing there, it ll went up the dust collector chute... any advice on this one?

bergerud
01-10-2013, 10:19 PM
Tape a shim to one side to make it measure exactly 1/2. Then using jog to touch, touch on the shim. That is how i made my pipe. My acrylic is 12mm.

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 10:37 PM
I would need a spacer so thin it would be tough to make. Why can't the mpc be setup for thickness of acrylic just wondering?

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 10:56 PM
Ok so you added the shim to the top for the bit touch and then let it essentially air carve slightly for your acrylic? I measured and my material is 12mm as well. also when you flip the board you just re apply the shim for a bit touch and then let it carve the front?

bergerud
01-10-2013, 11:24 PM
Sure you can change the mpc to be 12mm. Change the board thickness to 0.473 (12mm). This is a change of 0.5-0.473=0.027. Now raise the back of the pipes (concave side) from 0.338 to 0.338-0.027=0.311. I hope that works for you. If you carved all the pipes away, it seems like something is quite off since the difference was only 0.027.

If you do use a shim, you only have to use it on one side.

Sallen1215
01-10-2013, 11:29 PM
they carved but there was so little material holding and the dust collection vac is so strong they lifted up and i heard them go through the DC system

henry1
01-11-2013, 10:27 AM
Have to agree with sallen I have to recarve the pipe hardly no material left so I raised the inside of the pipe to 0.338 that should help//DId not the inside had to put it 0.295 work great

Digitalwoodshop
01-11-2013, 06:13 PM
We are learning new Tricks every day.... This is GREAT !!!

henry1
01-11-2013, 07:12 PM
Well already to be assemble got all the parts,, man what a project sunday will have it all together

bergerud
01-11-2013, 09:41 PM
Wow, I am impressed Henry. It looks great. Have you found a brush yet?

Sallen1215
01-11-2013, 11:59 PM
Looks great Henry, ill have mine all assembled this weekend and post pictures... it has been a long and daunting process but worthwhile.

bergerud
01-12-2013, 12:31 AM
I am sorry that it was so hard you guys. I did not spend nearly as much time on this as I spent with the dust cap files. I know you do not not want to hear this, but, it is only a prototype. I hope you are not disappointed. (Now I am nervous waiting for you guys to test it.)

Sallen1215
01-12-2013, 12:41 AM
Not disappointed, we all know its a work in progress.. Just happy to know you had the forethought to create the files for us to test.. and seems we all found some corrections that can be made. Its all part of the job when building new additions to equipment.. I for one thank you for the help here Dan. I would like to make an ER chuck for my machine but with little knowledge of that and no machining skills or equipment it doesn't seem to be in the cards for me at this moment.

henry1
01-12-2013, 06:38 AM
Wow, I am impressed Henry. It looks great. Have you found a brush yet?
Not yet but will today, and set it up sunday, will post pictures, cant wait to try it, gotta say its the best one so far without moddefing the machine

Sallen1215
01-12-2013, 03:57 PM
Sure you can change the mpc to be 12mm. Change the board thickness to 0.473 (12mm). This is a change of 0.5-0.473=0.027. Now raise the back of the pipes (concave side) from 0.338 to 0.338-0.027=0.311. I hope that works for you. If you carved all the pipes away, it seems like something is quite off since the difference was only 0.027.

I changed the settings to what you suggested and this is what i ended up with, the pipe thickness is great except for a couple key places58855 do you by chance have any other help that would be able to solve this?

bergerud
01-12-2013, 05:59 PM
I think your problem is simply that your double sided carves are not lining up. Do you do a lot of double sided carves? Try a simple test of drilling a center hole in each side of a scrap board. See if the holes line up. If they do not, you may have to play with the y offset setting.

There is always some variation in the double sided line up and that is why I say that I feel lucky when a pipe turns out!

DickB
01-12-2013, 07:22 PM
I have had good luck with double-sided carves by drilling a center hole and the using jog to center. Of course this only works if the center of your project is going to have a hole or opening, or you arrange multiple project parts around the center. I split front and rear carves into two projects. I carve the back with the project having a 1/8" center hole. Then I flip the board and carve the front, but I choose Jog To Center to align. Place the alignment bit over the center of the hole drilled from the back - you can get pretty accurate. Like I said, I have had better luck this way than choosing my usual Place On Corner.

rockflier
01-12-2013, 07:46 PM
See if these bearings will work http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit8602

bergerud
01-12-2013, 08:02 PM
Those bearings are the right size but the seals will not keep the dust out for long. I emailed VBX asking them if they had any "full contact" bearings for dust and they replied that they did not. We really need R1212 DD bearings. I know they exist but have not been able to find them. Until we find them, we will have to use ones like these you found.

Digitalwoodshop
01-13-2013, 07:57 PM
I must remember that Jog to hole double sided trick.... Even the double drill hole, one on the front and one on the back...

Sweet....

AL

bergerud
01-13-2013, 09:03 PM
I have not had so much luck with the jog to a hole trick. Works great for y because you can move it by hand. The backlash in the x seems to screw up the x position. I have been meaning to give it a try again by manually moving the x gears. I have had better luck keying in coordinates. Did you guys know that if you start pressing numbers instead of arrow buttons, you can jog to coordinates. You can keep trying until you like where it is. You can also write down the coordinates and use them over and over to get repeatable results with a jig which stays in the machine.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 12:43 AM
The dust shoe works pretty well but I cannot help but to try and improve it. I have been working all weekend on prototype 2. I was not happy with the restricted out take and the fact that the out take had to be hand ported. This one has a nice smooth path for the air and dust to follow and does not require porting by hand. I have no idea how this new one is going to work. It will be a day or two before a real test.

( I am still waiting for reports on prototype 1! Come on guys, you are falling behind!)

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 12:51 AM
I finished my tube today, had to play with some depths so im not majorly happy with it, but i should have it installed by tomorrow evening. We aren't falling behind Dan, your just ahead of the slow drivers in the slow lane lol. I do however love the prototype two.... Beautiful machined parts, we just need a more reliable tube design. for the people with a less than perfect CW.... my y offset is off by about .022 so im darn close just slightly off

bergerud
01-14-2013, 01:27 AM
I know, the tube is a tough one. We need a bullet proof method to carve it. Something like a jig that stays in the machine while the piece gets flipped over. Anyway, I was only kidding about falling behind. I just can't wait for you guys to test what you have made and see what you think.

DickB
01-14-2013, 09:24 AM
I have not had so much luck with the jog to a hole trick. Works great for y because you can move it by hand. The backlash in the x seems to screw up the x position. I have been meaning to give it a try again by manually moving the x gears. I have had better luck keying in coordinates. Did you guys know that if you start pressing numbers instead of arrow buttons, you can jog to coordinates. You can keep trying until you like where it is. You can also write down the coordinates and use them over and over to get repeatable results with a jig which stays in the machine.
Interesting. I haven't noticed a backlash problem. The board will move in very small x increments for me with a quick tap of the arrow key. I can reverse direction one tap and the board moves ever so slightly with no indication of backlash. If there were backlash I would expect the board would not move on the first tap of the opposite arrow key.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 09:48 AM
Have you noticed how the board will move away and then back after you press enter. A final check to take out the backlash? I have used a sharp pointer and remember it not quite coming back to the same place. I think the numbers come from the x encoder and not the tracking sensor. It may work better if one only moves the board forward to home in on the position instead of tweaking back and forth. I may be just spiting hairs again.

My suspicions came when I manually turned the x gears to jog. The numbers on the display change when the gears move even though the board does not move. Further experimenting is really required.

DickB
01-14-2013, 09:54 AM
I have noticed that; just thought it was an opportunity to abort or something - who knows. If the machine truly can't move away then return to the exact spot during this exercise, I don't see how it could do any better running a second project without removing the board. I suppose there is some inherent limitation in the works.

henry1
01-14-2013, 10:00 AM
Last but not least is the brush. It is very important to block the horizontal escape route for the chips. I use window seals that I got from the local glass shop. They are the same as some door brushes. The brush is only 1/4 inch long which is almost too long. There are two rows of bristles imbedded in a fiberglass like backing. You only need one row. I used the scissors in my Swiss army knife to carefully it out. A bit tedious. If you used the 1/16 cutting bit to cut out the slot in the shoe, you can press fit the brush in with a small watch screw driver. Just work your way around twice. If you used the carving bit, you will have to glue it in.
Got the brush had to glue it in , but works now just a matter putting it together, also you be glad to hear your puller works great , I had a used spindle to play with ,,also would you know the dimension top and bottom bearing I do not have the measuing tool to measure thank you for all your help

bergerud
01-14-2013, 10:53 AM
The bearings in the truck are standard steel bearings. NSK 6000DDU on top (same as in the cut motor) and NSK 6002VV on the bottom. The only thing a little special is the VV on the bottom bearing. The VV means that both seals are non contact seals (for high rpm).

bergerud
01-14-2013, 11:00 AM
If the machine truly can't move away then return to the exact spot during this exercise, I don't see how it could do any better running a second project without removing the board.

The reason one might expect there to be a difference is because the two processes to get to the spot are different. If the same process is used, I find the machine is consistent. (As long as the board does not get remeasured, it seems to be the same.)

bergerud
01-14-2013, 11:04 AM
Got the brush had to glue it in , but works now just a matter putting it together.

Looks good Henry. I cannot wait for you to test it.

DickB
01-14-2013, 11:10 AM
I'm actually running a two-sided project now with a jog to center on both sides. Both times the board moved away and back to the exact spot that I marked, as best I could tell peering into the machine. Curious to see how well front and back line up when done. Actually, for my project, I only need to be within 1/16" or even 1/8".

henry1
01-14-2013, 11:28 AM
The bearings in the truck are standard steel bearings. NSK 6000DDU on top (same as in the cut motor) and NSK 6002VV on the bottom. The only thing a little special is the VV on the bottom bearing. The VV means that both seals are non contact seals (for high rpm).
It were to find these bearing now I went to one site like http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/ I put in the # they looking for mesearment

henry1
01-14-2013, 12:23 PM
Looks good Henry. I cannot wait for you to test it.
I test it,, it mesures ok and the side plate had to trimm abit of, for the Z truck to go all the way but it works now I had to locktite the bearing and the pipe and now will let cure and then attach the hose I do not remember, did you use a hose clamp to hold it on the pipe ??

bergerud
01-14-2013, 01:40 PM
I test it,, it mesures ok and the side plate had to trimm abit of, for the Z truck to go all the way but it works now I had to locktite the bearing and the pipe and now will let cure and then attach the hose I do not remember, did you use a hose clamp to hold it on the pipe ??

I like to make everything a press fit. One must be careful connecting the hose. The pipe is delicate. I spread the hose by opening a pair of pliers in the end of the hose. While it is expanded, I put it on the pipe. (If the hose is too big, put some tape on the pipe to increase its diameter.) It has to be twisted to the right position as well if the hose has a natural bend in it. I first loosely zip tie the hose under the cover between the clear cover and the flex slot with two zip ties a couple inches apart. You have to find the right length so that the hose and pipe move freely from side to side. Take some time to find the best way, then tighten up the zip ties and cut them off.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 02:18 PM
I'm actually running a two-sided project now with a jog to center on both sides. Both times the board moved away and back to the exact spot that I marked, as best I could tell peering into the machine. Curious to see how well front and back line up when done. Actually, for my project, I only need to be within 1/16" or even 1/8".

I think we are talking different levels of accuracy. I cannot tell where the bit really is by looking sideways at it. The sphere in a cube, for example, required tweaking the numbers in the hundredth decimal place. I had to do sample carves to get it right. Once tweaked, it would do exactly the same carve over and over.

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 03:26 PM
So after a quick dremel cleanup here is what i have today and will add the brush in just a little bit5892058921

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 04:37 PM
Ok so i added the brush and installed it in the machine. Few things to know is the Bearing wipers on the bottom bearings of the truck on my machine had to be removed to allow for the base plate mounting. The tolerance for the pipe seems to be extremely tight. once again the pipe is the problem for me. Darn pipes! I wonder if there is a more easily useable option we may have. Here is the finished unit installed in my machine minus the hose.5892258923

bergerud
01-14-2013, 04:46 PM
Wow. It is so strange to see it made by someone else. Looks like a nice job. What are you going to use for a hose? I am not really happy with the hose I use. It is too thick and too stiff. I was hoping someone on the forum might know of a more flexible 1/2 or 5/8 ID vacuum hose. It is a problem which needs to be solved.

I thank you and Henry for all the time and effort you have put into making this thing. I think it takes an effort like yours to get something like this off of the ground. Others have said they would give it a try and now, after seeing what you guys have done, I hope more will get on it.

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 04:52 PM
Im looking for a hose now, i would like something lightweight with a wire helix so im still on the search. its a beautiful design aside from the tight tolerances for the pipe tube. Do you think it would hinder air flow too much if we made it a right angle and square coming off of the shoe and then add an elbow to the top of the step up piece for the hose to connect? Would limit the hose movement to back and forth instead of worrying about the bend in the tube.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 04:55 PM
Ok so i added the brush and installed it in the machine. Few things to know is the Bearing wipers on the bottom bearings of the truck on my machine had to be removed to allow for the base plate mounting. The tolerance for the pipe seems to be extremely tight. once again the pipe is the problem for me. Darn pipes! I wonder if there is a more easily useable option we may have. Here is the finished unit installed in my machine minus the hose.

I can see that the pipe has to go deeper into the bearing. As for the truck bearing wipers, I have two notches carved out for them. Is there a variation between machines? I have fit it to B and C machines and noted that the C machine does have a different truck casting. Is your machine an A?

bergerud
01-14-2013, 05:02 PM
Im looking for a hose now, i would like something lightweight with a wire helix so im still on the search. its a beautiful design aside from the tight tolerances for the pipe tube. Do you think it would hinder air flow too much if we made it a right angle and square coming off of the shoe and then add an elbow to the top of the step up piece for the hose to connect? Would limit the hose movement to back and forth instead of worrying about the bend in the tube.

I made that pipe for the dust cap. It comes out and changes direction about as fast as is possible. It is all very tight. The out take for the shoe could be made higher I suppose.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 05:05 PM
The next time you post a picture, could you make sure the bottom of the z truck and bearings can be seen. I wonder now about the machine variations.

As a temporary solution to the hose problem, you may be able to use someting like a rubber raft air pump hose. They are not smooth inside and would not last long but at least you give the shoe a test.

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 05:10 PM
My machine is either an A or B i would lean towards B without looking at it for sure.5892458925

henry1
01-14-2013, 06:20 PM
Wow. It is so strange to see it made by someone else. Looks like a nice job. What are you going to use for a hose? I am not really happy with the hose I use. It is too thick and too stiff. I was hoping someone on the forum might know of a more flexible 1/2 or 5/8 ID vacuum hose. It is a problem which needs to be solved.

I thank you and Henry for all the time and effort you have put into making this thing. I think it takes an effort like yours to get something like this off of the ground. Others have said they would give it a try and now, after seeing what you guys have done, I hope more will get on it.
have agree with you the hose is to thick or stiff I am looking myself for some lighter hose but wont kink

henry1
01-14-2013, 06:24 PM
My machine is either an A or B i would lean towards B without looking at it for sure.5892458925
Look at the front there a sticker it will tell you if its a,, b,, or and A,, because the # starts with A or B

lawrence
01-14-2013, 06:28 PM
would something like this work?
http://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-Silicone-Vacuum-Hose/dp/B009PYE3FK

Lawrence

Digitalwoodshop
01-14-2013, 06:57 PM
GREAT Thread....

bergerud
01-14-2013, 07:08 PM
My machine is either an A or B i would lean towards B without looking at it for sure.

I thought it was the z bearings. It is the y bearings. I'll bet the adjustable one is just turned clockwise to tighten instead of counter clockwise. That puts the bearing lower. You can just grind down the tab on the back of the shoe which hits. Those tabs are non essential anyway.

Is that a Rock chuck? I was hoping you had a CT. The shoe is really thought out for a CT. You will have to pop the little window (which you have not made yet!) in and out between bobbing and carving. It will not work well with that big open hole. 80% verses 98% . What kind of chuck do you have Henry?

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 07:17 PM
Yeah Dan it is the Rock Chuck and im not extremely worried about the lower y bearing wipers, lots of people have removed them to verify the bearing cleaning. as far as the removing of the top cover, that is not a bad price to pay, but curious if i lead out the bit a little further does that make a difference? I don't use LHR pressed on bushings i use the split collet in the rock chuck.

bergerud
01-14-2013, 07:17 PM
I have seen anti-static, wire wound, smooth inside, clear vacuum hose but I cannot seen to find it again. I am thinking of something like this:

http://www.desihose.com/viewproduct.aspx?pid=139

Sallen1215
01-14-2013, 07:28 PM
I like the idea, the issue is the small diameter hose makes choices much more limited for flexibility as well as strength with a balance of lightweight

bergerud
01-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Yeah Dan it is the Rock Chuck and im not extremely worried about the lower y bearing wipers, lots of people have removed them to verify the bearing cleaning. as far as the removing of the top cover, that is not a bad price to pay, but curious if i lead out the bit a little further does that make a difference? I don't use LHR pressed on bushings i use the split collet in the rock chuck.

I am not sure how far you can put out the bit before the machine gags. I have gone really far and milled almost 1.8 inches deep with a 3/16 end mill. It was 2 or 2.5 inches out and my chuck almost touches the board. It gives a good hard push on the bit plate. Since you can only go 1 inch into the board and the top of the shoe is like 1/2 inch above the board, a little over 1.5" should be good. I do not think it will be a problem. How far does the carving bit usually protrude below the chuck?

I think that tip of the bit being 2.5 to 3 inches below the bottom of the truck is normal. Subtract the length of the Rock and what do you get?

DickB
01-15-2013, 01:04 PM
I think we are talking different levels of accuracy. I cannot tell where the bit really is by looking sideways at it. The sphere in a cube, for example, required tweaking the numbers in the hundredth decimal place. I had to do sample carves to get it right. Once tweaked, it would do exactly the same carve over and over.
I didn't mean to imply that I could only get 1/16" accuracy; just that is all my project required. I usually do better. No, probably can'y eyeball to 1/100th inch.

Here is the project that I just finished using jog to center. The two recesses at the far ends of the oval are to hold 1/2" dowels, and these will be secured with recessed screws from the back. 1/8" through holes were drilled from the back first, along with a recess for each hole for the screw head. On front, I drew a center line using the holes to determine the center width and measuring between the holes for center length. The 1/2" recesses were then drilled from the front, to align with the through holes from the back. I was actually spot on in the x direction and off just a bit in y, but of no consequence for this project.

front58961 back58962 front58963 front58964

I would like to know more about your technique for the cube for times when I need better accuracy. How exactly did you set that project up?

henry1
01-15-2013, 01:55 PM
I thought it was the z bearings. It is the y bearings. I'll bet the adjustable one is just turned clockwise to tighten instead of counter clockwise. That puts the bearing lower. You can just grind down the tab on the back of the shoe which hits. Those tabs are non essential anyway.

Is that a Rock chuck? I was hoping you had a CT. The shoe is really thought out for a CT. You will have to pop the little window (which you have not made yet!) in and out between bobbing and carving. It will not work well with that big open hole. 80% verses 98% . What kind of chuck do you have Henry?
I have the rock chuck with 1/2 adapter and just make it still playing around with it I have a few ideal of my own will post when again

bergerud
01-15-2013, 01:57 PM
With the sphere in the cube accuracy and consistency was extremely important. I is very difficult to fix the sphere if even one of the six carves is off. I made a jig into which a 2X2X2 inch cube snugly fits in from the top and is clamped from the front. The cube can be lifted out the top and flipped while the jig stays in the machine. It takes me awhile to set up the initial carve. Using scrap blocks, by trial and error, I find the coordinates corresponding to the center of the block face. After each test carve, I tweak the jog to coordinates from the keypad. (When it and asks to jog to center, I press numbers instead of the arrows.) Once I get a perfectly centered carve, I record the numbers. Now I put in the good wood and carve a pretty good sphere. I just keep using the same numbers. I actually will carve a few spheres once I have the numbers.

Once I remove the jig, turn off the machine, or abort the project, all is lost. It is possible, however, to carve different projects (ie. different face carves) with the same numbers. If for example, one wanted to make a set of alphabet blocks.

bergerud
01-15-2013, 02:15 PM
I have the rock chuck with 1/2 adapter and just make it still playing around with it I have a few ideal of my own will post when again

I need someone with a CarveTight chuck to test the shoe! The whole shoe idea was based on the 1/2 inch between the lowest point of the chuck and the board. This gap is unique to the CT. MT, you still do not have dust collection do you? Do you have a CT? Anybody??

Sallen1215
01-15-2013, 04:55 PM
I have a friends machine with me and i will remove his CT truck to check it, but i want to get my shoe mounted and working for the rock first. also i found a flexible hose i want to test and if it works i will have to figure out where you can get some as it is designed for the HVAC industry.

James RS
01-15-2013, 05:30 PM
I'd like to see how this works on the Rock


I have a friends machine with me and i will remove his CT truck to check it, but i want to get my shoe mounted and working for the rock first. also i found a flexible hose i want to test and if it works i will have to figure out where you can get some as it is designed for the HVAC industry.

Sallen1215
01-15-2013, 05:49 PM
So here is the fully installed unit on my machine minus the bit plate which i will install shortly, the weak point in this system is the pipe. but with this corragated hose it allows for the shoe to be built and we redesign the piece to no need the bearing or the pipe.589685896958970

henry1
01-15-2013, 06:10 PM
Salen when you try it out, the shoe the top over the shoe will be in the way I did a test run and RC just fits when it take reading

Sallen1215
01-15-2013, 06:28 PM
Dan how about this or a jig to do any of the pieces? Its a carve region with 1/8 holes in which you insert dowels to slide into pre-drilled holes in the acrylic.58972

bergerud
01-15-2013, 06:31 PM
So here is the fully installed unit on my machine minus the bit plate which i will install shortly, the weak point in this system is the pipe. but with this corragated hose it allows for the shoe to be built and we redesign the piece to no need the bearing or the pipe.

That would really nice to eliminate the bearing. One would need a very flexible hose and some method to keep it out of the way. Clearance is a problem as well. You must have noticed that the pipe operates in a narrower space because it rotates and gives a little extra clearance when it is horizontal. The bearing was, in fact, the idea which originally made the thing possible.

DickB
01-15-2013, 06:32 PM
With the sphere in the cube accuracy and consistency was extremely important. I is very difficult to fix the sphere if even one of the six carves is off. I made a jig into which a 2X2X2 inch cube snugly fits in from the top and is clamped from the front. The cube can be lifted out the top and flipped while the jig stays in the machine. It takes me awhile to set up the initial carve. Using scrap blocks, by trial and error, I find the coordinates corresponding to the center of the block face. After each test carve, I tweak the jog to coordinates from the keypad. (When it and asks to jog to center, I press numbers instead of the arrows.) Once I get a perfectly centered carve, I record the numbers. Now I put in the good wood and carve a pretty good sphere. I just keep using the same numbers. I actually will carve a few spheres once I have the numbers.

Once I remove the jig, turn off the machine, or abort the project, all is lost. It is possible, however, to carve different projects (ie. different face carves) with the same numbers. If for example, one wanted to make a set of alphabet blocks.

Thanks. Got it.

So I'm thinking, for a larger project like mine, (or the dust shoe?), I could build a large sled. It would have something like 10" of dead space at one end. I would machine the back side of my board with a back only project in this sled, using Place On Corner (the project would include the 10" of unused space to the right as viewed in Designer). I would have set up a dummy project to drill a hole 3-1/2" from the end of the sled. When I run that project and it finished, the business end of the sled would be protruding from the machine, so I could flip the project board. If I had drilled a through-the-board index hole in my back project board, and in the sled, I could use it and a jig to position the board precisely in the x-direction on the sled after I flipped it. A rail on the side of the sled would fix the y-position, if I flipped the board end to end, not in the standard way. Then I could run the front project, all without having removed the board.

bergerud
01-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Dan how about this or a jig to do any of the pieces? Its a carve region with 1/8 holes in which you insert dowels to slide into pre-drilled holes in the acrylic.

That is what I use. I have a 3 by 4 by 1/2 recess milled for the piece to fit in. Usually I make it a press fit. Sometimes I use tape. I pull out the piece and flip it over in the jig for the second carve. I also have one for 3 by 3 by 1/2 pieces which is only 1/2 inch thick and I flip the whole thing over for the second carve.

Sallen1215
01-15-2013, 06:54 PM
with the dowels i would think you can limit the machine drift. Then using jog to center and make the center in the same place on each side

bergerud
01-15-2013, 07:13 PM
Thanks. Got it.

So I'm thinking, for a larger project like mine, (or the dust shoe?), I could build a large sled. It would have something like 10" of dead space at one end. I would machine the back side of my board with a back only project in this sled, using Place On Corner (the project would include the 10" of unused space to the right as viewed in Designer). I would have set up a dummy project to drill a hole 3-1/2" from the end of the sled. When I run that project and it finished, the business end of the sled would be protruding from the machine, so I could flip the project board. If I had drilled a through-the-board index hole in my back project board, and in the sled, I could use it and a jig to position the board precisely in the x-direction on the sled after I flipped it. A rail on the side of the sled would fix the y-position, if I flipped the board end to end, not in the standard way. Then I could run the front project, all without having removed the board.

I like that idea. Great idea about having the sled come out of the machine to access. I have been fighting with flipping small projects while the project piece is between the rollers. I have to think about that one!

(Why would you flip the board end for end? I must be missing something there.)

bergerud
01-15-2013, 07:27 PM
with the dowels i would think you can limit the machine drift. Then using jog to center and make the center in the same place on each side

I have not had much luck with jog to center. Maybe if you used a sharp pointer instead if the blunt carving bit. I still worry about backlash errors.

DickB
01-16-2013, 08:50 AM
(Why would you flip the board end for end? I must be missing something there.)
Now that I think about it, it would be better to flip it the usual way. But the sled would have to be designed such that the board could be adjusted along the y axis. When you flip the board, you could retain the x orientation by locating the board tight against the end of the sled both back and front, but you lose y orientation. The way I make my sleds, the board is clamped against a rail, and can be adjusted in the x direction, so I was thinking flip the board the other way. But that would be counter to the orientation in Designer and cause complications.

bergerud
01-16-2013, 09:40 AM
It is interesting that you only get to keep one dimension constant when you flip a board. Flipping end for end keeps the y center the same while the normal flip keeps the x center the same. In my experience the x measurement is uncertain and not adjustable where as the y is more consistent and adjustable (y offset) so I think sticking with the normal flip is best. I do like the idea of having the sled micro adjustable. If you could turn some knobs and tweak the position of the board a 1/8 of an inch each way, the hole drilling method could really work well I think. Or, with some kind of reference like a 1/16 carved dot as the first part of the pattern and a 1/16 hole through the board, one could stop the carve at the start just as it carved the dot and tweak the sled.

I find this accuracy - repeatability problem very interesting. Another thing I have tried is clamping a block to the rear out table. After the first carve I start the second carve but before the second touch, I clamp the block up next to the end of the board, flip the board, dispel the possible board removal message, remove the reference block and start the carve. This way I get to flip the board while saving the x position. For this to work the y offset has to be right. It is very tricky, however to tip the board out and back without moving the brass roller. This idea using a sled would be better.

henry1
01-16-2013, 09:49 AM
Have to agree with you Berg this is what I do flip the board and always came out ok

radman5506
01-16-2013, 12:28 PM
I am really enjoying this thread. I am still new at this and I have tried one time to carve acrylic but was unable to because my 1/16 carving bit was dull and gave me a y-access error. I verified it by putting in my 3/16 carving bit which went to town like a hot knife through butter. So I have new 1/16 bits on order. I do have a dust collector but it seemed all but useless with the acrylic carving. So how are you all controlling the acrylic dust while carving bergerud's dust shoe or lithopanes for that matter?

bergerud
01-16-2013, 01:32 PM
So how are you all controlling the acrylic dust while carving bergerud's dust shoe or lithopanes for that matter?

Good point. I thought people would make a shoe out of wood first just as a first run through and then use the wooden shoe to carve the acrylic. That is if they really wanted one out of acrylic. Wood is ok too. Some of you should just go for it and carve a wooden one.

radman5506
01-16-2013, 02:35 PM
Just waiting for my 1/16 carving bits to come in, Seems one of the bigger problems with using the Carvewright is the problem getting ready access to the bits and the fact that they really can not be resharpened.

James RS
01-16-2013, 02:42 PM
I'm intrigued by this concept and wondered if there
was a finalized so to speak pattern.That can be used
On the Rock chuck?

Thanks
Jim

bergerud
01-16-2013, 03:03 PM
There is not a finalized pattern. This is still at the prototype stage. It will work with the Rock. The only problem is that the little window has to be taken out for the bit bobbing before the carve. It was not really designed for the Rock. I am thinking that a better design for the Rock would be an easily removable shoe. Magnets or something. Then one could keep the original bit plate. The shoe would just sit on the ledge until carving or cutting time when it would be put on. The shoe as designed for the CT stays on (with the window) and operates without getting in the way at all.

henry1
01-18-2013, 01:39 PM
Just tried it today works like a charm for me no dust at all I gave it a trail run man,, for me works good and the hose great when I finalies all will put it on Y tube

bergerud
01-18-2013, 02:19 PM
That is great Henry! Do you have a window for the top? It would be nice to see how the Rock goes though the shoe during the measuring process as well as how it collects the dust when the window is back in. Good work.

henry1
01-18-2013, 02:54 PM
That is great Henry! Do you have a window for the top? It would be nice to see how the Rock goes though the shoe during the measuring process as well as how it collects the dust when the window is back in. Good work.
I can't put a window, the rock just goes down the thickness of the shoe just about,, the window would be in the way will have better pic next time around taken from my Iphone

bergerud
01-18-2013, 03:21 PM
After the measurements are taken, we think you can put in the window for the carving part. The chuck should not go below the shoe will carving. Without the window, there will be some escaping chips. Watch and see if a window is possible after carving starts.

henry1
01-18-2013, 03:30 PM
After the measurements are taken, we think you can put in the window for the carving part. The chuck should not go below the shoe will carving. Without the window, there will be some escaping chips. Watch and see if a window is possible after carving starts.
tomorow will have more time have to go out 35 wedding anniversary got to please the wife lol

chief2007
01-18-2013, 04:46 PM
Congratulations Henry! You are truly blessed......Here's to 35 more!!!

DickB
01-18-2013, 07:15 PM
I don't have a Rock, just looking at the pictures, could an open cylinder attached to the shoe work, such that the Rock would close the top off when carving?

henry1
01-18-2013, 08:45 PM
Congratulations Henry! You are truly blessed......Here's to 35 more!!!
Thank you chief for that,, all when off good

bergerud
01-18-2013, 08:50 PM
I don't have a Rock, just looking at the pictures, could an open cylinder attached to the shoe work, such that the Rock would close the top off when carving?

I think that would work but it would still have to be removed for the bit plate part of the measuring process.

I did not expect so much Rock interest. I thought everyone had or will have a CT and really designed it only for the CT. (Strange that there is no QC interest.) I wonder what the ratios are for the different chucks.

My idea now is to make the shoe easily removable (held on with say, magnets). CT users can leave it on (if they want to use the new bit plate) or switch it on and off if they want to keep the original bit plate. For QC and Rock users, there would be no need to replace the original bit plate since the shoe has to come off during measurement anyway. Then there are no problems with big bits or the scanner. Just leave the shoe off. This is the only way I can think of to make it work for all chucks. (Popping the little window in and out for us fat fingered woodworkers would just be annoying.)

Sallen1215
01-18-2013, 08:56 PM
is there enough strength in magnets that would be able to fit on the space allowed on the z truck?

bergerud
01-18-2013, 09:09 PM
Space is always the challenge with this thing! After a few days of thinking about it, I have an idea.

Sallen1215
01-18-2013, 10:38 PM
only option i can think of is to drill the truck and epoxy in rare earth magnets and then a mating magnet epoxied to the dust shoe, and assuming it doesn't mess up the electronics i guess it should work.

bergerud
01-18-2013, 11:48 PM
only option i can think of is to drill the truck and epoxy in rare earth magnets and then a mating magnet epoxied to the dust shoe, and assuming it doesn't mess up the electronics i guess it should work.

No, I would not alter the machine. My Dust Cap is removable. There is a base bolted to the carriage which the cap clips into. I can take it off if I need to without unbolting. I am planning the same type of thing except having some magnets between the two parts.

Here is a video of the already obsolete prototype 2. (Notice the chip that flies out right away and lands on the sliding plate. Back to the Designer board. LOL.)

http://youtu.be/DyZGDuG-Ifk

(Notice how close the pipe comes to each end Stephen. Everything is so close.)

Sallen1215
01-19-2013, 12:10 AM
Your machine works beautifully. i can envision a "keyed" type connection with the magnetic connection to ensure not only a magnetic bind but also a mechanical bond. i love your machine use, it makes me desire to carve a new pipe to try to get mine to work again.

bergerud
01-19-2013, 12:35 AM
Yes, that's what I am talking about. Slips on and the magnets hold it. Busy right now in Designer.

That machine is actually not mine but a friend's that I thought I would design a dust collector for. I am actually very happy with my old dust cap. It and my ER16 are a great pair.

Yes, make a new pipe. That may be the one part that stays the same!

henry1
01-19-2013, 04:43 AM
After the measurements are taken, we think you can put in the window for the carving part. The chuck should not go below the shoe will carving. Without the window, there will be some escaping chips. Watch and see if a window is possible after carving starts.
I will be making the top window today , and the magnet ideal would be great, like you said our big finger it would help

henry1
01-19-2013, 08:45 AM
All done, the top I made it snaps in and all working like a charm here a few pic of it , Now I am going to make a spare set, now that I know the hang of it , is was a long process but well worth it thank you Bergerud

James RS
01-19-2013, 08:52 AM
Nice! can you post the mpc you used, I got a little lost early on. But that's not hard to do for me getting lost

Thanks,
Jim


All done, the top I made it snaps in and all working like a charm here a few pic of it , Now I am going to make a spare set, now that I know the hang of it , is was a long process but well worth it thank you Bergerud

henry1
01-19-2013, 09:19 AM
Nice! can you post the mpc you used, I got a little lost early on. But that's not hard to do for me getting lost

Thanks,
Jim
Its start on this page http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?22196-Dust-Shoe-Prototype-for-the-Carvetight/page19 and keep reading you will find the rest from bergerud

bergerud
01-19-2013, 10:29 AM
Nice! can you post the mpc you used


The mpc's and small write ups are posted along this thread. You will have to go data mining.


#63 body mpc
#73 hose out path
#75 bearing
#84 carrier board mpc
#89 bearing cap mpc
#103 pipe mpc
#109 window mpc
#110 brush
#117 bit plate mpc

You might look at some of the nearby comments as well but there is a lot of "other" stuff in the thread.

rockflier
01-19-2013, 11:50 AM
Henry, could you post a link for the hose you used? Our local suppliers do not have the time for such a "small" purchase to help out. Thanks!

bergerud
01-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Here is the link I gave to Henry. It is common hose I think. I was hoping for something better, but it works.

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/ponds-and-supplies/c83534/p9612868.html

chief2007
01-19-2013, 12:36 PM
Henry, could you post a link for the hose you used? Our local suppliers do not have the time for such a "small" purchase to help out. Thanks!

I have a vendor here in the states, I'll find it and post it shortly. You purchase by the foot.

rockflier
01-19-2013, 12:38 PM
Thanks!!!!

chief2007
01-19-2013, 12:45 PM
Here is the link: http://www.petsolutions.com/C/Pond-Plumbing-Supplies/I/Non-Kink-Tubing.aspx

$1.29 per foot if you get 12 or more feet, $1.09 per foot

rockflier
01-19-2013, 01:00 PM
Here is the link: http://www.petsolutions.com/C/Pond-Plumbing-Supplies/I/Non-Kink-Tubing.aspx

$1.29 per foot if you get 12 or more feet, $1.09 per foot
My thanks for all your help. Time to carve! I am using oak for all the parts except the window.

henry1
01-19-2013, 01:31 PM
Here is the link I gave to Henry. It is common hose I think. I was hoping for something better, but it works.

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/ponds-and-supplies/c83534/p9612868.html
That hose was 99 cents per foot does the job,, they are in Orillia ont phone # 1-877-738-7387

JLT
01-19-2013, 01:53 PM
Dan,

Been dabbling for a couple days over the last week with the prototype of the shoe you provided, and after about 5 variations, I'm beginning to settle on one, although it still has a number of limitations and issues (I'm using an "A" machine with the Rock Chuck). The main difference is that I've put the hose to the right of the z-truck and run it up through the top of the machine, akin to Dick's prototype a while back. (See image 1.) Notables are:

* In order to accommodate the hose running out through the top, the shoe prevents the Z truck from going the full distance it used to with the bit plate in place, by about 1/2".

* The shoe is covered with a 1/8" piece of acrylic, which swings ~3/8" to the left, and is held close by a common pen spring. A 3/8" hole permits the bit to pass through.

* The bit plate has been removed.

* The block on the front side of the shoe is attached to the acrylic, which when the machine goes to tap the bit plate, the block hits the side of the machine, and swings the acrylic just enough such that the bit can't pass through the 3/8" hole, and thus taps the acrylic. Of course, this only works with small diameter bits. (I'm only using the carving and cutting bits.) (See image 2.)

* The hose is improvised 3/4" electrical flex tubing, wrapped in electrical tape to seal the slit. (I originally used 1/2" tubing, but it did not appear to provide enough vacuum, although I think that was due to the fact that I was running it out through the right side of the machine, and it was probably being crimpted.)


Issues...

* The shoe is a bit big on the left side, and doesn't permit the Z truck going to the left by about 1/8". Easy fix.

* The improvised electrical flex tubing, when wrapped with electrical tape, is approximately 0.95" O.D. This just barely fits through the top cover. When wandering through True Value, I was about to pick up the more expensive ($14) dishwasher flex hose, and now regret that I didn't. When I just now measured the hose on my dishwasher, it was 0.87" O.D., and additionally doesn't need to be wrapped in electrical tape. This should solve the issue of the snug fit in the top cover.

* When the bit is being tapped down on the "acrylic plate", the entire shoe is pressed down. It probably won't take many cycles before the shoe begins to sag. My thought here is to extend the acrylic sufficient to reach the metal lip of the frame, thereby assisting in holding up the shoe, although at the risk of this dragging back and forth during a carve should the shoe sag.

* When using a sled, when the CW does its frivolous checks to tap down on the X roller plate and the locking plate, the Rock Chuck ends up bouncing on the acrylic. Furthermore, it throws a retry error when not able to reach the locking plate. I can fool it by simply holding a paint stick in place of the locking plate, and it continues along its merry way. (I call these checks frivolous, because it seems that only the bit plate and the wood surface checks are really necessary for a successful carve.)

* Additionally, because of the new firmware that assumes the bit lengths of the CarveTight, I can't extend the cutting or carving bits very far on the Rock Chuck, without getting a Z truck error. Thus, I don't think I'd be able to do a 3/4" deep carve, and I was just barely able to do a 13/16" cutout, with the Rock Chuck nearly touching the acrylic.


Next attempts...

* Not sure when I'll get around to it, but am starting to conclude that the removable acrylic cap on the shoe is the way to go.

* I would have an acrylic plate for the bit tap. Ie, open up the door just before the bit check, and slip the plate in place. (I already open up the door during the initial startup sequence, after the bit is put in and the motor spins up. The firmware doesn't wait for the bit to stop spinning before it taps the X roller plate, so I simply open the door, let the bit stop spinning, and then let the CW continue so it doesn't bite into the dime I now have in place to protect the plastic plate.)

* When performing all it's other checks, no acrylic plate would be in place, allowing the chuck to pass through the main opening of the shoe.

* Then, before the actual carving starts, I would slip in the acrylic plate. I like Dick's idea about a removable open cylinder as part of the dust cap. Will probably make use of the top of a 20oz clear plastic coke bottle, as it has a conical shape that should work well...


By the way, thanks for the dust shoe project file. Made it easy to jump start the prototype...

Jon

rockflier
01-19-2013, 01:55 PM
Drats. The first pipe carve had the same problem as some others. It carved through. Time to modify the mpc for me.

bergerud
01-19-2013, 02:27 PM
That is very cool JLT. Looks like you are having fun. I do not know how you get that pipe out the top. You have me worried about the length of bit thing. Do you have a C machine with a Rock? Surely the bit can stick out of the Rock an inch and a half, can it not? I have a B machine with my own ER16 spindle which I made to come as close to the wood as I could and I have no trouble with long bits. There is something here I do not get.

My main goal with a dust collection system is that require as little attention as possible. My Dust Cap setup is just "there" requiring no extra steps or thought. My vacuum turns on and off automatically and dust as well as the the dust system is not part of my equation when I carve. This dust shoe prototype can be the same for CT machines. As you know, the Rock seems to be a different story.

Keep us posted on your progress. This is great!

bergerud
01-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Drats. The first pipe carve had the same problem as some others. It carved through. Time to modify the mpc for me.

The mpc assumes that the board is exactly 1/2 inch thick. Is my machine different than other machines? Do you use jog to touch? A sled. Maybe you could explain how you are carving the pipe so I can understand the differences. If you do want to alter the mpc, change the height of the back side (pipe insides) since that is only a single pattern.

rockflier
01-19-2013, 02:37 PM
The mpc assumes that the board is exactly 1/2 inch thick. Is my machine different than other machines? Do you use jog to touch? A sled. Maybe you could explain how you are carving the pipe so I can understand the differences. If you do want to alter the mpc, change the height of the back side (pipe insides) since that is only a single pattern.

Bergerud, the board is exactly .50. I will use jog to touch this time. I am using a 6" wide piece of oak, 48" long and carving to edge. In analyzing the mpc (the combined front and back) I see that the total depth (front plus back) is somewhat greater than .5. Perhaps that is my problem.

bergerud
01-19-2013, 02:47 PM
The depths have to add up to more that 0.5 because the pipe has an inside. What is interesting is that the sum of the depths to the flat floors adds up to 0.5 even though, my machine always leaves a thin layer. I think machines are a little different. Tweak until you get it.

rockflier
01-19-2013, 02:49 PM
The depths have to add up to more that 0.5 because the pipe has an inside. What is interesting is that the sum of the depths to the flat floors adds up to 0.5 even though, my machine always leaves a thin layer. I think machines are a little different. Tweak until you get it.

I surely will. Thanks loads for your help and the great design!!