air dried kiln dried i have more questions than answers

[menewfy]

Okay so I reported some findings the other day i will put it here too then I have a few questions about that.

I went out yesterday to look for a good source of wood and I talked to this one guy and he told me that pine was air dried and looking like the newfie I am. I asked what is air dried well he says it is dried by the air!!

the point to this embarrassing story is this he also said that oak is kiln dried and when people try to use it to carve they get alot of breakout due to the brittleness of it being drid so fast there is no moisture left in it. so as soon as you take on piece out of it you get more than you want.

hope this helps if you are looking for hard wood try to get some that is either air dried not too much around here or get some before it is sent to be kiln dried and let it dry yourself.

good luck

okay so I have been doing some reading and here are the questions I have

1. I spoke to a cabinet maker today that told me I would be better off using kiln dried because he said that air dried would warp if i made plaques from it once it got into someone elses home. can anyone tell me if this is true?

2. he also said that even if i seal the plaque it will take on moisture and warp. is this a fact and if so would it be better to tell the people who buy it to let it climatize in thier home before they seal it?

i do not want to sell something at a market and then have people unhappy with it a short while after.

the width i am thinking of using is around 12 inches.

I would imagine that most answers will come from beta testers considering they will have pieces that have been around for 6 months or longer, but i think the info will be worthy to all using this machine with the intent to make some signs or plaques to sell or even give away to family or friends.

thanks in advance please respond to the questions in format of 1. or 2. so I dont get confused

[Dan-Woodman]

By all means ,listen to your cabinet maker.
Kiln dried lumber is usually dried to 6-8 percent,air dried even after months of drying may be 12 percent.
Then when you apply a finish your traping the moisture inside the wood.
Also when you do finish put the same number of coats on both sides so one side doen't absorb more moisture than the other causing posible warpage.

[pkunk]

There's lots of answers that may or may not apply to you(or anyone) depending on where you live, the relative humidity in your shop (heated 24-7 or just when you work), etc. I live in an extremely arid climate, but not as arid as southern Arizona, and have virtually no problems with lumber shrinking or expanding. I buy cabinet grade lumber from a reputable supplier (3 actually) and it is both air & kiln dried depending on many variables such as species, origin, and the mill's whims (I guess). I use a moisture meter, acclimate my wood for several weeks in my shop before use, and reject any & all problem wood either upon delivery or if it shows signs of instability when I cut into it. There is wood from trees that have grown on a steep slope or had another tree leaning against it or was subjected to a constant source of stress that is called in the trade as 'reaction wood' that will either pinch, spread, warp, twist, or just plain explode when cut apart. Do not use this wood. It cannot be salvaged. It does burn nicely though. :D Very small pieces of almost any wood will be suitable to use in your CW as long as they are modestly dry and the harder woods with a closed grain like maple, white oak, cherry, walnut, and I just learned sassafras, will carve nicely. Sugar pine works well if you van find some close grained stuff, it's easy to sand, takes stain well, and is relatively inexpensive. I could go on, but typing is not my forte.

[HandTurnedMaple]

pkunk has a lot more experience than I do. But my addition to the discussion is this. I don't pay attention to air-dryed or kiln-dried. I work with dry wood. If it comes in wet I air dry in the shop. If it comes in dry, I work with it. I don't know what the moisture percentage is, I just what is wet by the weight (pick up a fresh piece of AC2 if you don't know what I mean). I know every piece of furniture I've built in my 6 years of woodworking and every piece remains straight and level (my first piece still sits in my kitchen).

But I'm not building cabinet doors where wood movement is a critical element. So you have to consider a few things about what you are producing. Is wood movement critical in your work? Are your objects made of different species or from different pieces of the same species? Are you mixing heartwood with sapwood? Are you working with different thicknesses next to each other? These things cause movement which contribute to warpage if not accounted for.

The last thing to consider is price. The more you do, the more you more you have to charge. Can you sell a 12" wall hanging for $120 or will your target market be happier with $40?

Some major contributors to warpage are knots and other grain imperfections. Buying closely inspected clean lumber will greatly improve your results. And as Dan said, finish all sides equally so that it will absorb moisure (humidity) at an equal rate all the way around.

[bobreda]

There is a lot of misconception between air and kiln dry wood. All wood is ari dried until it reaches betwenn 20 and 12% moisture content. If not, putting it in a kiln will degrade the wood because of the rapid moisture released in a very short time. There are two types of moisture in wood and what the kiln gets out is the moisture that is trapped in the molecular structure of the cells of the wood.(or sometimes called trapped moisture) Air dried may or may not get the trapped moisture out or all of it out. This doesn't mean it isnt any good. A moisture meter will tell you the moisture that is in the air (relative moisture)or lying in the wood, not the trapped moisture, it can't tell you that. There is a lot of good info on this subject if you are interested, especially dealing with solar kilns, a good article is located on theoak.com. Make enjoyable reading.

Bob

[menewfy]

ok let me ask a different question if I get kiln dried will it gain moisture back when i get it home?

and is there a best percentage of moisture for using the cw?

and will it take on moisture once it is stained or sealed or will it last like it is when it was sealed assuming that it is even on both sides?

I just want to be able to make an informed decision and I want people that end up with the product( which will be people all over north america ((fingers crossed)) :lol: ) to be happy with it for a good while.

I do not intend to sell a 12" piece for 120 it will be in the 40 range I am sure.

thanks again

[Greybeard]

Hi Menewfy.

If I was in your position, and reading that your were going to make carved plaques about 12"wide(but not how long ?) I would do this.
Have a sticker printed to go on the back of your products with something like the following -


"This piece of ***** is a natural product and will still react to its environment. Like the tree it came from, if it is exposed to extremely dry or extremely humid air it will tell you it's unhappy by changing shape".

Regards
John

[menewfy]

well that is a good thing to warn people about and very well versed thanks. it would take a big sticker thoug perhaps I will include it in the box when I sell it.

thnaks again

[menewfy]

more information i found out.

I spoke with a few more people and here is what I found, after reading some of the posts here red oak is not the best cause it chips out. white oak and maple carve well, it turns out that if it is kiln dried they say that it will go for atleast one year without cracking and if you seal it with polyurathane two coats recommended it will last for years and years.

they also said that it should climatize in the area it is going to be, so if i carve it in ontario and then send it to seattle where there is more humidity send it there and let it sit for 2 or 3 weeks then stain if you like and afterwards seal it.

works for me.

[pkunk]

For exterior signs an oil finish will last longer than a Poly or varnish but has to be replenished regularly. I trying a new (experimental) waterbased poly from Sherwin Williams for exterior signage that (so far) seems to be holding up. It's been 8 months and I have my fingers crossed. :roll:

[HandTurnedMaple]

I don't want it to seem as if I am trying to convince you to take shortcuts. That's not my intentions at all. But remember the more you do the more you have to charge and the fewer the customers you will have (not a bad thing if you have wealthy customers). That said, here is my take on things:

If you are making an interior household item, most houses are basically the same condition inside. When its cold, the heat comes on and the air dries out. When its hot/humid the A/C comes on and people try to dry the air out. Basically acclimate the wood to room temperature, account for swelling and shrinkage in the construction and you will do fine. Or if you have wealthy customers, act exclusive and make them pay for your extra efforts.

For exteriors pkunk is absolutely correct (again :roll: ). Oil finishes are the best if the customer will take responsibility and either replenish the oils or make a contract with you to do it. When I sell my Adirondack chairs locally I tell my customers that I will come out twice a year and renew the Thompsons for $15 a set if they have a garage to store the set for 2 days; or $25 to bring it back to my place and do it if they have no place to store it.

When using a poly-type finish outdoors you have to be very careful that you get 100% coverage. That's generally pretty easy on most signs. But for furniture its harder. You have to coat the screw heads and inside the bolt holes too. If you miss a spot then water will enter there and the whole effort was for nothing. Also denim will wear out most hard finishes, so it will need repaired in a couple of years. You have to decide if you have enough finishing experience to pull that off.

[menewfy]

thanks very much for all the good info.