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View Full Version : What I see in Designer, is Not what I Get...



pruitts
02-01-2007, 08:47 AM
I received my machine last week and after carving out a couple of quick signs of my kids' names in Pine, I decided to try something a little more involved. I live the Chicago area and given the current status of the Bears, I opted to try to come up with a nice Bears sign to show off at work among all of the bandwagon fans.

I imported a bears logo into Designer. I placed the logo, the word Bears in large letters and the words NFC Champions in smaller letters, into a recessed carved oval. In Designer it looked great; the detail of the logo was also coming through quite nicely. I set the bit optimization to Best. Uploaded the design to the memory card using the High quality setting. I then pulled out a nice piece of 0.5" Oak and let the machine carve away.

The photos below show the results. The detail of the logo was horrible. Most all of the smaller text letters were chipped away. I purposely used Oak to have the design look much nicer and to prevent chipping.

I can somewhat understand the smaller text breaking. However, seeing the detail that others have received doing different carvings, I didn't think I was asking too much. Plus, I kept the depth of the smaller text shallow on purpose to prevent the wood from breaking away. The bigger disappointment was the look of the logo. What I saw in Designer, is Not what I got from the machine...

I have attached my design and 4 photos to ask for your help. The first three photos show the original sign. The last photo shows part of the sign redesigned with 'rounder' small text (to try to prevent breaking of the text). Notice two things in the last photo. 1) the smaller text still chipped away. 2) The sign is not finished - I received a Z Axis Stall error and the machine shut down. (It's currently on its way back to Texas for service, since troubleshooting with Chris in support couldn't get it running again.)

I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions that you can provide, such that when I get the machine back, I can be better prepared to produce a nicer sign.

Thanks in advance!

bobreda
02-01-2007, 09:40 AM
Can you post the original picture of the Bear that you imported into designer. Most, if not all the time when one inports a pic it has to be worked on in another type porgram(corel, photoshop) very few pics in my experience can be imported directly into designer and obtain sastisfactory results.

Bob

Jeff_Birt
02-01-2007, 09:49 AM
Do some searching on the forum regarding importing logos/images into Designer. Jon Jantz did a great video tutorial on how to use CorelDraw to do this. In short, Designer uses shades of grey in the imported images as depth information. So you have to work with a logo to get the shading set correct so it will carve nice.

Really thin text of any height will not carve worth a hoot (tried that on my first real carving too). Think of how thin those areas are and how much pressure the machine exerts as it moves the bit through the wood.

Sometimes, as you have seen, things will look diffrent in Designer than when they are actaully carved. One of those situations is thin area chip out, another is when you have something that really stands proud of the surface (and has vertical edges). Designer does not account for the taper in the carving bit (yet) which can lead to the edges being a bit chewed up.

I have just kept text down to a reasonable height and kept away from really thin fonts. Others use external programs to create text with a taper to it which also helps a lot.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 09:55 AM
I've posted many times that oak is too open-grained to get good carving results. Its good for recessed lettering signs, but anything raised on oak has a high risk of chip-out. Further that, the small lettering is too small as this machine moves side-to-side very fast. Especially on oak.

This is part of the learning curve of the machine. All I can say is chalk it up to experience and learning.

pruitts
02-01-2007, 10:30 AM
Thank you for the comments thus far!

Attached is the logo that I used. I have done some graphics work and understand the machine uses shades of grey for depth. However, when I uploaded the graphic and saw what it looked like in Designer, it didn't 'appear' that I needed to do anything else with it. It looked like it was going to turn out quite nice.

HandTurnedMaple - I would appreciate some suggestions on tighter grained wood you recommend to get better carving results.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 10:35 AM
HandTurnedMaple - I would appreciate some suggestions on tighter grained wood you recommend to get better carving results.

Still working on that. I have a cherry board that I have seen recommended here. But I want to make sure the patterns are perfect before I throw it in. Sometime in the next 2-3 days though. What I have used: basswood carves good, but extremely fuzzy finish that must be worked off, hard maple carves great with only some fuzz. Other people have posted their wood choices in the Techniques forum too.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 10:38 AM
I curious, what size is the logo in your finished product?

Ron Smith
02-01-2007, 10:59 AM
Since I've had a lot of experience in the past year of oak chipping quite a bit, I haven't tried to do very small letters with my signs. This is on a piece of 10" X 16" cherry. I do plan on a more detailed sign after the Bears win on Sunday, only because my brother is a Colts fan, and I will send it to him for his den. I used the same logo on my sign and had some chipping also. I had taken it to Photoshop and cleaned it up some. But since I was going to paint it anyway, I was satisfied for the first try. I will work on a more improved logo later. I'd love some of you experts to redo the logo and post it in the design sharing thread. Here's the sign I posted in another thread. No one's giving us any hope for Sunday, but I believe. Keep the faith. DA BEARS!

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 11:12 AM
Here's what I get just importing the way it is. But notice how thin the eyes are. This will never survive carving on any wood.

NOTE: My help on this project should not in anyway be construed as support for the Bears or the Bears organization. 8)

pruitts
02-01-2007, 11:21 AM
Ron - Nice sign! Thanks for sharing. Painting would be an option, I was hoping for the natural wood though.

Perhaps I need to enlarge the graphic to allow the bit some room to work.

I was a little disappointed after seeing the detail in other small carvings.

HandTurnedMaple - The graphic is just shy of being 2" square.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 11:26 AM
When you do the math then, then areas defining the eyes are about 1/32" to 1/64" thick on a 2" graphic. The bit is moving laterally at a speed of 1 foot per second. It isn't possible if you try to use the graphic as it is (as far as I can tell). I am currently expanding or deleting the thinner sections, we'll see how that turns out.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 11:49 AM
See if the one on the right will work for you.

pruitts
02-01-2007, 12:00 PM
Thanks for doing some work on the graphic. Unfortunately I won't be able to test it until my machine is returned from service in about a week and a half.

I will give it a try though!

Thanks again!

menewfy
02-01-2007, 01:18 PM
well you must live down the street if you think you will have it back in a week and a half cause they have had mine in their shop for 7 business days so far let alone shipping time.

anyway I went out yesterday to look for a good source of wood and I talked to this one guy and he told me that pine was air dried and looking like the newfie I am. I asked what is air dried well he says it is dried by the air!!

the point to this embarrassing story is this he also said that oak is kiln dried and when people try to use it to carve they get alot of breakout due to the brittleness of it being drid so fast there is no moisture left in it. so as soon as you take on piece out of it you get more than you want.

hope this helps if you are looking for hard wood try to get some that is either air dried not too much around here or get some before it is sent to be kiln dried and let it dry yourself.

good luck

pruitts
02-01-2007, 01:46 PM
menewfy - Thanks for the information on the wood! Here I thought Oak was going to be my best choice... Looks like I will have to do a little research. Most of the lumbar yards around me are just Menards and Home Depot's. I might have to see if I can find a saw mill that is not too far of a drive...

Thanks for crashing my dreams of a speedy turnaround on my machine. :D I had only used it for 4 hours when it broke down. After 2 hours on the phone with support and regluing the Z axis ribbon cable, checking all the sensors, etc. It was still reporting a Z axis stall error. I was quite disappointed and on the verge of returning the machine. I have quite high hopes that once I get it back, I can get some good use out of it.... You can always hope...

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 01:53 PM
Man, I miss Menards. All I have in Home Improvement Stores is Home Depot and Lowe's, which is just Home Depots more expensive brother.

Anyway, I will try the pattern later on pine in both 2" and 4" to see how it does.

Menewfy, drying your own lumber is always a good thing, it lets you control your materials. But be aware that it takes 3-6 months to dry a hardwood, depending on temperatures and humidity. So its something you have to be constantly doing, and you need a supply of fresh cut logs. If you have the right situation for it there is nothing better.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 02:06 PM
Pruitts, may I suggest either contacting Land O Lakes Lumber (847) 546-2142 and asking where the nearest hardwood store/supplier is; or take the 20 mile trip to Woodcraft at 1280 East Dundee Road in Palatine. I have to go almost 40 miles myself to get a piece of good hardwood (except oak, which is only 25 miles away).

pruitts
02-01-2007, 02:17 PM
Handturnmaple - Thanks so much for the suggestions for location. Once I get to a store, what exactly should I look for? All I have typically ever worked with is Pine, Oak, Walnut, Maple and Aspen...

menewfy
02-01-2007, 03:13 PM
menewfy - Thanks for the information on the wood! Here I thought Oak was going to be my best choice... Looks like I will have to do a little research. Most of the lumbar yards around me are just Menards and Home Depot's. I might have to see if I can find a saw mill that is not too far of a drive...

Thanks for crashing my dreams of a speedy turnaround on my machine. :D I had only used it for 4 hours when it broke down. After 2 hours on the phone with support and regluing the Z axis ribbon cable, checking all the sensors, etc. It was still reporting a Z axis stall error. I was quite disappointed and on the verge of returning the machine. I have quite high hopes that once I get it back, I can get some good use out of it.... You can always hope...


well i am the same way i just want to make something i want to get busy and I cant. anyway sorry to put a damper on your day.

menewfy
02-01-2007, 03:15 PM
Man, I miss Menards. All I have in Home Improvement Stores is Home Depot and Lowe's, which is just Home Depots more expensive brother.

Anyway, I will try the pattern later on pine in both 2" and 4" to see how it does.

Menewfy, drying your own lumber is always a good thing, it lets you control your materials. But be aware that it takes 3-6 months to dry a hardwood, depending on temperatures and humidity. So its something you have to be constantly doing, and you need a supply of fresh cut logs. If you have the right situation for it there is nothing better.

i understand it would take a while but apparently if you seperate the wood with sticks and use a fan it will dry twice as quick.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 04:22 PM
Handturnmaple - Thanks so much for the suggestions for location. Once I get to a store, what exactly should I look for? All I have typically ever worked with is Pine, Oak, Walnut, Maple and Aspen...

You are asking a potentially big question here. Have ever purchased hardwood before at any place other than a home improvement store? In other words, are you familiar with board feet?

Dan-Woodman
02-01-2007, 05:38 PM
Some of the clear pine that Home Depot carries carves pretty well.
You do get some fuzzing on the end grain,but it sands off rather nice I usually use a sandind sponge and sometimes I use sanding sealer first , the sand the fuzzies.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 06:13 PM
Here is the Chicago Bear. I did a 4" and a 2". The 2" is just too small considering the bit is 1/16" across.

Hanna
02-01-2007, 06:28 PM
How do you sand without removing detail? And what do you do about fuzzies in the crevices? I got a small steel brush and that seems to work ok, but is there a better way?

menewfy
02-01-2007, 06:30 PM
Some of the clear pine that Home Depot carries carves pretty well.
You do get some fuzzing on the end grain,but it sands off rather nice I usually use a sandind sponge and sometimes I use sanding sealer first , the sand the fuzzies.


I have wondered have you stained anything from home depot. I was going to use thier wood, but i figured out that they glue the wood together especially if it is 12 inches wide. I was then told that the joints where the wood is joined would soak up more stain and it would not look right.

i will tell you that where I live the select pine from home depot is 3.10 per board foot. yesterday I found a saw mill that will sell it to me for 1.75 per board foot and that is planned on two sides top and bottom. i am not going to worry about the sides cause i will cut it to size anyway.

and the best part it is one piece of wood so it will stain well and it will mostly be close grain cause it order to get it that wide it will have to be mostly from the center of the tree.

just my thoughts i would reccomend people look around oh yeah and one more thing wood that big is hard to come by so buy what you can.

Jon Jantz
02-01-2007, 07:18 PM
Pruitts...

I took that project and re-worked it because I was wanting to experiment with several techniques... it turned out pretty decent so I thought I'd share it with you in case you want to try to carve it...

On the project, I increased the carving depth to .5 then went to like 200 on the height... it gives it more relief. You could back it down to .25 if you wanted to not have to carve so much wood...

Good luck...

Dan-Woodman
02-01-2007, 08:25 PM
Menewfy
I have stained the clear pine from Home Depot,it's beautiful.
I do not however use the glued up #2 pine panals. Too many knots, glue joints, and sap.
You can also try a brass bristle brush.

menewfy
02-01-2007, 08:30 PM
good to know thanks

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 08:32 PM
If you can find a piece of select that's more than 11 1/4" wide made out of a single piece of wood, you are extremely lucky. Given that Boise brand wood is the most common in home improvement stores, and that I am surrounded by the Boise National Forest, you can believe me when I say the trees just aren't big enough to produce lumber that wide consistently. In the modern world, wide boards have to be created by jointing smaller pieces together. That said, I never buy commercial glue-up panels because they do not bother with grain matching. I set all of mine up using the DowelMax, being careful to not put a dowel where a carving will expose it.

If you can see the joint after staining a commercial panel, its because of poor grain matching. But the joint itself should pose no problems.

pkunk
02-01-2007, 08:44 PM
If you can find a piece of select that's more than 11 1/4" wide made out of a single piece of wood, you are extremely lucky. Given that Boise brand wood is the most common in home improvement stores, and that I am surrounded by the Boise National Forest, you can believe me when I say the trees just aren't big enough to produce lumber that wide consistently. In the modern world, wide boards have to be created by jointing smaller pieces together. That said, I never buy commercial glue-up panels because they do not bother with grain matching. I set all of mine up using the DowelMax, being careful to not put a dowel where a carving will expose it.

If you can see the joint after staining a commercial panel, its because of poor grain matching. But the joint itself should pose no problems.
I've been glueing up panels for half a lifetime and never use dowels, bisquits, or glue joints. The glue is stronger than the wood! Those crutches are for alignment. BTW, if you want wide pine, I have a bunch of primo 6/4 & 8/4 sugar pine in widths from 14 to 18" with only a few knots.
It's not as hard to find as one would think if you have a good supplier. Not at HD or Lowes, though. :roll:

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 08:51 PM
I've been glueing up panels for half a lifetime and never use dowels, bisquits, or glue joints. The glue is stronger than the wood! Those crutches are for alignment.

The glue is indeed stronger than the wood. Everytime I have done a straight glue-up on pine, the wood fractured leaving the glued portion completely intact. But adding the dowels with a DowelMax both eliminates the need to replane the wood and spreads out any pressure placed on the joint to reduce the chance of splintering. It may be my glue-up technique that ineffective, but regardless I find the doweling process quick, effective, and increases the strength of the finished board.

pkunk
02-01-2007, 08:58 PM
Hey, whatever works for you! :) I can't afford the time & wonder about weather I'd cut into a dowel or not. I use good wood and my glue ups come out flat enough to sand with one pass on the Woodmaster. I frequently make as many as 6 panels in one glue up to be cut to length later before raising the panel. If I had a dowel or biscuit in the raised part I throw away 4 BF of prime wood.

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 09:18 PM
Its pretty much about technique development. At the time you developed your technique, doweling was a long and inaccurate process. I have developed my doweling technique around this type of work, and avoiding cutting and carving into the dowels just takes a quick look at the plans and a quick measure with a tape. But I'm not cursed with the need for mass production speed, the one thing I have is too much time.

pkunk
02-01-2007, 09:28 PM
the one thing I have is too much time.
Jeeze, can ya spare me some? My spare time(when I have it) is waiting for glue or finish to dry. And thats in 20 min. increments. Maybe when I get over 65 I'll have some....wait-that's next year! :D

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 09:32 PM
Just send me some work that doesn't involve glue-ups. :lol:

pkunk
02-01-2007, 09:35 PM
Just send me some work that doesn't involve glue-ups. :lol:
You're too far away to do assembly, or installations, so..... :D :D

HandTurnedMaple
02-01-2007, 09:40 PM
That's good, cuz I avoid redundant work like the plague. Give me something new and interesting every time.

pruitts
02-02-2007, 02:51 PM
HandTurnedMaple - The only stores that I have ever purchased wood from would be the typical Menards, Home Depot, etc. I believe board foot is measured by taking LxWxH/144, however I have never purchased wood this way. A quick lesson on what type of wood to look for would be appreciated.

thanks!

HandTurnedMaple
02-02-2007, 03:12 PM
OK, buying hardwood is quite different than you are used to then.

The major differences are:
1) They do not come in 1x4, 1x6, 1x8, etc. It is random widths and lengths. Have an idea of what you need and take a tape measure in with you.
2) Board feet is actually LxW/144. Your price is based on the thickness. So you will be buying 7 board feet of 4/4 (for example). When selecting your board, look for boards where the width varies the least, because the measurement used for pricing will almost always be based on the widest part of the board.
4) Thicknesses are not what they list them as. 4/4 is actually about 7/8" and you probably plane it to 3/4" if it needs it. 5/4 is usually about 1 1/8", not 1 1/4". Again, the tape measure will help you there.
3) It will come as S2S (side 2 side), which means it has been planed and jointed on just 2 sides. Home Improvement wood is S4S.
4) Take the time to sort through and get the best, cleanest piece(s) that you can find. It is expected by the staff that you will be choosey.

Which wood to choose:
Not sure yet. Classic carving woods (basswood, butternut, etc) will leave fuzz, but that should not be a deal breaker. Maples are something to consider, as is cherry. Take the time to look at Purpleheart just 'cuz. Its too expensive to practice carving on, but I'm still amazed that wood can naturally be that color. I haven't found my perfect wood yet (and while setting up my first cherry carve this morning, my board sensor took a dump). Look around the forums for advice there.

This site is also good for explainations of wood:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/category.jhtml?categoryid=/templatedata/wood/category/data/Wood_Magazine_Wood_Profiles.xml

pruitts
02-05-2007, 08:22 AM
Handturnedmaple - Thanks so much for the explanation and advice! I certainly appreciate it!

Sorry to hear about the board sensor on your machine... Have you had much trouble with the machine in the past?

porkysbbq
02-07-2007, 04:42 PM
Since I've had a lot of experience in the past year of oak chipping quite a bit, I haven't tried to do very small letters with my signs. This is on a piece of 10" X 16" cherry. I do plan on a more detailed sign after the Bears win on Sunday, only because my brother is a Colts fan, and I will send it to him for his den. I used the same logo on my sign and had some chipping also. I had taken it to Photoshop and cleaned it up some. But since I was going to paint it anyway, I was satisfied for the first try. I will work on a more improved logo later. I'd love some of you experts to redo the logo and post it in the design sharing thread. Here's the sign I posted in another thread. No one's giving us any hope for Sunday, but I believe. Keep the faith. DA BEARS!


looks like you have to make a colt's sign for your brother lol

911guy
07-28-2007, 09:47 PM
Since I've had a lot of experience in the past year of oak chipping quite a bit, I haven't tried to do very small letters with my signs. This is on a piece of 10" X 16" cherry. I do plan on a more detailed sign after the Bears win on Sunday, only because my brother is a Colts fan, and I will send it to him for his den. I used the same logo on my sign and had some chipping also. I had taken it to Photoshop and cleaned it up some. But since I was going to paint it anyway, I was satisfied for the first try. I will work on a more improved logo later. I'd love some of you experts to redo the logo and post it in the design sharing thread. Here's the sign I posted in another thread. No one's giving us any hope for Sunday, but I believe. Keep the faith. DA BEARS!

I'm curious how you darkened the lettering. Maybe if someone else might know how this is done...(dark varnish with a cloth?)