Centerline Problem

[SteveNelson46]

A few months ago I made a couple of signs for the local Woodcraft store using the Centerline text add-on for part of the sign and they came out great. Yesterday I was asked to make a couple more for one of the stores in Phoenix. No problem! I'll just birng up the old .mpc files and carve them again. The attached pictures show how they appear on the screen. They may carve okay but, as you can see the Centerline text didn't do a very good job converting the conventional font (Garamond). It looks like something has changed in the Designer updates since I made the original signs. I have also had other problems with "vectors" eg. Designer crashes, re-sizing dxf imports, and slow response times. Has anyone else experienced these problems? If so, how did you fix them?

[b.sumner47]

Steve, Did you use the original MPC as with the 1st ? Have you upgraded to .186 ?


Capt Barry

[SteveNelson46]

Capt. Barry

Yes, I'm using Designer 1.186. My computer I built myself. Asus Rampage IV Extreme motherboard with 24 gb memory and a Saphire Dual X 7850 video card with 2 gb memory. I'm thining about uninstalling the current version of the Designer and re-installing version 1.184 to see if it will solve some of the problems. Of course I won't have the new 2D and 3D tools available but, it will be interesting to make the comparison.

Also, the centerline problem seems to be exacerbated by making the text bold.

[mtylerfl]

Capt. Barry

Yes, I'm using Designer 1.186. My computer I built myself. Asus Rampage IV Extreme motherboard with 24 gb memory and a Saphire Dual X 7850 video card with 2 gb memory. I'm thining about uninstalling the current version of the Designer and re-installing version 1.184 to see if it will solve some of the problems. Of course I won't have the new 2D and 3D tools available but, it will be interesting to make the comparison.

Also, the centerline problem seems to be exacerbated by making the text bold.

Hi Steve,

Anytime you have those little "islands" within Centerline Text, it means the bit angle and physical size is too small in relation to the size of the text for it to be able to make a clean "v". The solution is to make the text smaller so the bit can properly carve the Centerline (or use a bigger angle bit).

Try experimenting with making the text smaller, and/or removing the Bold setting, and/or changing the bit assignment (i.e., change from 60 degree to 90 degree) and see if that gets you on track. Please let us know how you make out.

[Digitalwoodshop]

1. Did it select the V90 Bit? not the V60?

Board sizes are the same?

Does that Font or Type Face have more than one loaded font as in sometimes it will load, Thin, Normal, Bold, and Condensed to name a few?

Does changing to Optimal Carving change anything?

This does not concern this problem but sometimes I need to include a space bar before and after a word to get the Tail of a Font to carve correct. FYI

AL

[SteveNelson46]

Michael

I have tried all of your suggestions. Removing the bold helps and making the text smaller helps also. Of course if you make the text small enough the problem will eventually disappear. However, making the text smaller in this case isn't an option. In the case of regular dual line fonts the "V" carve function adjusts the depth by how far apart the lines are. But, this is a Centerline function so there should not be any more than one line.

Some letters can't be done in one single pass of the bit so it has to use additional passes to create a nice looking letter and to accomodate the font style. I think that's what is happening here but the subsequent passes don't match up with the first pass

[SteveNelson46]

For those who would like to see the original .mpc I have attached it here. It's a relatively simple 2 sided sign made for a glass front door. If you select the lettering and zoom in close i think you can see the problem.

[mtylerfl]

For those who would like to see the original .mpc I have attached it here. It's a relatively simple 2 sided sign made for a glass front door. If you select the lettering and zoom in close i think you can see the problem.

Hi Steve,

I opened your file in my 1.184 version of Designer. The text appears exactly the same there. I also tried opening your mpc in older versions than that...all the way back to version 1.178. Unfortunately, the file won't open in any version older than 1.184, so I couldn't check the file to see if there was any difference in those older versions.

As it is now, centerline V-carving in CarveWright Designer requires that the geometry of the bit is large enough to be able to fully span across any two points of the interior boundary of the letter vectors. In your mpc, the letters are more than the diameter of the bit in many areas (i.e., all of the areas that have the "islands" of uncleared material left behind). Reducing the letter size so that no span is greater than the diameter of your bit (in this case 0.5") should yield a clean centerline v-carve.

As you may or may not know, I do use other software products for my 'brand-x' machine. The procedure there does indeed work differently than in the Designer software. In other words, a v-carve 'centerline lettering' toolpath will make as many passes as necessary to clear out the unwanted "islands" if the bit diameter is smaller than the span across the interior of the closed vectors.

So, the information I provided above is what is necessary (at this time) to get Designer to give you the clean centerline v-carve. You could follow-up with hand chisels to clean out the remaining material if you absolutely cannot make the lettering smaller for this job.

I believe the folks at CarveWright may see this post and perhaps they can add some information or clarity I have not thought of, or am not aware of.

[mtylerfl]

Steve,

As a further follow-up on this, I opened one of my older Projects of the Month (the Spring Wreath) in the old Designer 1.178. The banner for the wreath uses the Centerline Text function. At the size I originally designed it, the v-carve/centerline is perfect.

However, if I enlarge the lettering to a size that the letter vector boundaries exceed the diameter of the v-bit, "islands" of material left behind in the cleft of the "v" will show up (exactly like in your mpc). The larger the lettering, the more material is left behind. So, I have confirmed that at least as far back as Designer version 1.178, you must make sure the lettering for centerline v-carving needs to be sized so that no portion of a letter can cause a span greater than the diameter of the v-bit you use, to avoid the "islands" of material in the cleft of the "v's".

[SteveNelson46]

Michael

I understand what you're saying and that is probably what is happening with my sign. Still, a sign with text that is only 3" by 24" shouldn't be a problem. The size of the text isn't unreasonable and some provision should be made for larger text anyway. Afterall, the Centerline function is an add-on that you have to pay for. It would seem that just adding a larger V-bit to the selection would solve some of the problem. Alas, there could be problems with that too. eg. vibration, clearances, stress on the spindle, etc. I guess I could try substituting a wider bit on a test carve and see how it turns out.


end of rant

[lawrence]

Steve,

It sounds like your woodcraft visit was a profitable one- wish I could have joined you there.

If it helps at all, you can simulate centerline text - even control the depth etc. with the DXF importer and corel draw. I posted about it here- perhaps this will help?
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?17915-CorelDraw-DXF-Conforming-Vectors-ability-to-mimic-centerline-text-with-bit-depth&highlight=coreldraw

Hope this helps

Lawrence

(ps- my woodcraft visits always COST me money... it amazes me that yours can MAKE it for you!... That is talent!)

[gwizpro]

I have been getting excellent results with large text by using raster then inverting the text. It is a carve now, but the text cutting is very smooth and does not have those little bits of jaggedness that centerline will get with some fonts.

[mtylerfl]

Michael

I understand what you're saying and that is probably what is happening with my sign. Still, a sign with text that is only 3" by 24" shouldn't be a problem. The size of the text isn't unreasonable and some provision should be made for larger text anyway. Afterall, the Centerline function is an add-on that you have to pay for. It would seem that just adding a larger V-bit to the selection would solve some of the problem. Alas, there could be problems with that too. eg. vibration, clearances, stress on the spindle, etc. I guess I could try substituting a wider bit on a test carve and see how it turns out.


end of rant

Hi Steve,

It's a matter of bit geometry (size) and the way the toolpath is generated in the Designer software that sets the limit as to the size of Centerline that can be done on the Carvewright. I don't think substituting a larger bit would help since it would follow the toolpath the same as the standard CW bits - the letters would "overflow" the vector borders, but still leave the "islands" of material in the cleft of the "v". (NOTE: I've never tried this myself though, so I'm not really certain of the outcome.)

Perhaps you could submit a feature request to CarveWright for the ability to v-carve larger lettering that currently exceed the capability of the software.

I made a similar request awhile back for adding v-carving within enclosed vector areas to be able to create Wayne Barton (http://www.chipcarving.com/about_wayne.htm)-style chip carving effects with Designer, similar to my Paradise Box project (http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/projects/march-2011/paradise-box.htm) I created for Vectric (see photo example below). The principle is the same for either large 'centerline' text or enclosed vector areas...the toolpath would be such that the bit would make as many (stepover) passes as necessary to create a clean "v" in the center of an enclosed vector area.

Up to this point, the main focus (intentionally) for the CW Designer software has been on dimensional relief raster carving moreso than on certain kinds of v-carving features (i.e., large lettering and Wayne Barton v-carving). As the software continues to develop and mature, I'm pretty confident we will see these features in a future advanced version of Designer.

[DickB]

Michael, that's a cool project!

We do have some similar capability with our CarveWright by converting patterns to or using dingbats, as was described in the May 2009 Tips and Tricks newsletter. There are some neat borders and similar free dingbats at http://www.fontspace.com/sassy-graphics and other sites that can result in some nice carvings. I considered but did not actually use this Celtic dingbat font for a recent project.

56695

[mtylerfl]

Michael, that's a cool project!

We do have some similar capability with our CarveWright by converting patterns to or using dingbats, as was described in the May 2009 Tips and Tricks newsletter. There are some neat borders and similar free dingbats at http://www.fontspace.com/sassy-graphics and other sites that can result in some nice carvings. I considered but did not actually use this Celtic dingbat font for a recent project.



Hi Dick,

Thank you. Yes indeed, a very nice method for creating similar effects. Thank you for reminding everyone of that and for the link to the dingbats.

[SteveNelson46]

Michael

Your Paradise Box is indeed a beautiful project. Do you have any plans to make it into a Carvewright project?

Thanks again for your advice on the v-carve-centerline problem.

[mtylerfl]

Michael

Your Paradise Box is indeed a beautiful project. Do you have any plans to make it into a Carvewright project?

Thanks again for your advice on the v-carve-centerline problem.

Hi Steve,

Thank you very much!

Couple reasons why I can't duplicate that particular project for the CW...

1) It belongs exclusively to Vectric for their customers
2) The CW doesn't have the capability for v-carving like that, at this time (can simulate to some degree, but not exactly the same)

Thanks again for the compliment. It is appreciated!

[SharonB]

That is a beautiful box Michael. Would love to be able to carve something like that with the CarveWright. Can we come anywhere near duplicating it with the current software?

[ladjr]

I agree that is a beautiful box. Nice job


Leo
Life is to short carve something today

[henry1]

that is a nice box to bad we can't carve it

[chebytrk]

I agree... That would be an awesome CW carve!

[DickB]

I believe that it can be done with CarveWright. I do not want to re-post Michael's work, but follow the links and download and view the instructions. You will see black-on-yellow renderings of the carved pattern. They are not of sufficient quality to be used directly, but imagine having access to high-quality black-on-white versions. These images can be converted to dingbats, in whole or in part, and carved using Centerline. Read the dingbats tutorial. I have used that method, albeit with less complicated artwork. I believe with a 60 degree bit the result (box) would be very similar.

[DickB]

Here's an example. The design is nothing like Michael's excellent piece, but it illustrates the technique. I used two dingbats form the Celtic 2 font at the link I posted. If one could convert Michael's pattern to dingbats I believe one could carve the same or nearly the same box as his.

56736

[mtylerfl]

Uh-Oh. Thanks for the compliments everyone. I didn't mean to "start something", though. :p

Our CarveWright machines are WONDERFUL and we can do a LOT of cool stuff with them! At the moment (as Dick B suggested) we can come sorta-kinda close to a carve like that via other methods for the CW, but currently the CW doesn't directly support that specific type of v-carving. Another thing that often needs to be incorporated in that kind of v-carving is the ability to specify what's called a "Flat Depth". This effectively limits a v-bit to a preset fixed depth so it won't pierce through the thickness of the material when v-carving large areas. I consider that to be an advanced feature, and I'll bet we'll see that in a future version of Designer at some point.

I can simulate very similar results for v-carving using the Designer existing tools, but it is a lot of work (and trial and error) to achieve a really detailed result such as the Paradise box. However, I will seriously consider doing something like that for the CW...(when/if I can ever get caught up around here!)