Copyright laws ??

[Ropdoc]

56573

Hello all,

I have a chance to start working on some projects. One of my thoughts is to use variuos symbols like this. This one I just finished. It is Smtih and Wesson. Can anyone tell me if it is breaking a copywright law to sell something with it on it? I just dpn't know.

Thank you for your advice.

Dave

[gwizpro]

As in the past, this thread may become heartwarming.
Watch the replies and be amazed.

[lynnfrwd]

I groan, too, every time I see this issue come up. No offense to you at all, Ropdoc.


First question is...are they for sale or to be given away? You can give them away all day long, you just can't sell them, if they are under copyright.
You need to research and see if S&W still has a copyright on it. (They probably do.)

[chief2007]

From what I just looked upped, it is a Registered Trademark for Smith and Wesson and protected under those laws - So an easy rule of thumb to follow is - "When in doubt throw it out"

[Ropdoc]

Gift is ok to sell not ok. Got it. Thank you for the needed answers

[lawrence]

I don't want to get into it either, but want to make sure that the facts are listed--

It's NOT legal to use, gift, or sell copywritten material- it is illegal to copy it (use it) in the first place and it doesn't matter if it is for personal use, for a gift, of for sale. This being said, most of the actioned offenses are for folks selling... I just want to make sure you know the actual letter of the law.

It's all as clear as mud in title 17 of the US code...
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

This being said, I think most folks draw some fairly common sense lines-- for example, the song Happy Birthday is copywritten but that doesn't stop folks from singing it at parties even though doing so is technically copyright infringement. (It does mean however, that you will rarely see it in the movies/on tv!)

Just my .02 and not meaning to stir the pot (again) or tick anyone off,

I'm not a lawyer so please don't take my words here as legal advice :)

Lawrence

[Digitalwoodshop]

There we go.... Second time tonight.... I am Snoozing and many correct answers appear... Good thing I have Tags to make for the Night Shift.. LOL... The Matag Repairman would be playing Cribbage....

I took a Paint Pot, Air Regulator, some fittings and Stainless Braided Dishwasher Hose and a LP Air needle point gun... Put a Quart of my Fire Tag Epoxy inside and 10 PSI and I have a easier Epoxy Dispenser.... Was using a Mustard Pump on a Gallon Can and a big Syringe.... Let the Good Time Roll.... Back to work...


Sawmill Creek Engraving forum has some Great Copyright stuff with actual Cease and Desist letters mentioned for anyone interested.... :lol:

AL

[b.sumner47]

The Chief said it right, " When in doubt,Throw it out ".


Capt Barry

[TurtleCove]

Lawrence is 100% correct.
What concerns me most with this thread, is that someone from the Carvewright staff (lynnfrwd (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5551-lynnfrwd)) is giving incorrect information, that can become legally devastating to someone.

It is NOT legal to give away copyrighted materal....period. I know this because I've been guilty of such infringement in the past, and actually had a search-and-seizure performed on my house because of it (believe me...that's a nightmare you don't want to live).

Think about it, folks.
You spend a huge amount of time and dollars drawing and designing a logo, and then someone starts reproducing your logo, and giving it away to everyone, and anyone. Would you want that? I doubt it.

[James RS]

Email them and ask, would probably be the simplest thing to do in my opinion


56573

Hello all,

I have a chance to start working on some projects. One of my thoughts is to use variuos symbols like this. This one I just finished. It is Smtih and Wesson. Can anyone tell me if it is breaking a copywright law to sell something with it on it? I just dpn't know.

Thank you for your advice.

Dave

[JoeinWestMich]

Has anyone who wanted to make a product to sell at something like an art fair ever written to the logo's organization and asked for permission to use it in this limited way? Just wondering if some organizations even have pricing guidelines for use of their logo, i.e. 5-10% of selling price? If so, do they require picture of how it is to be used? I worked with one very local higher ed institution when making items for local non=profit organizations' auctions (donation NOT selling). They required submission of what I was making, who it was going to, and how many I was making. They agreed to let me use it at no charge but only for the purposes in the application, but I could update who I made it for with a simple letter. If I wanted to make it to sell they had a different, much more complicated application process and then charged a fee for each product sold. I did not find out the prices because I was not going to sell. I doubt other organizations are that easy to work with. But if you are working to benefit others which many of you do (in addition to selling) you may find many organizations look kindly on that.

[TurtleCove]

I have a friend that copies fishing logos, and cuts them into vinyl. He contacted some of the logo owners, and some told him to make all he wants...they didn't care. They looked at it as free advertising.

I, on the otherhand, "attempted" to sell a Tshirt with the Mack Truck logo on it, and I had police and lawyers from NY at my door with a search warrant (I am not exaggerating one bit)...and I never sold a single shirt with their logo.

I know logos are cool. Especially the sports logos. But, when someone knocks on your door, you'll quickly realize that these owners mean business, and it's simply not worth it. I'd love to carve some signs with the Green Bay Packers logo on them, but you never know whom you may have over to your house that will see it, and say something to the right/wrong person.

I was a member of a scroll sawing forum a few years ago, and whenever this topic came up, everyone held their breath. Scroll sawyers are notorious for sharing and using copyrighted art. The moderators were the worst. It got to the point, that when someone brought up the topic, nobody dared preach the law, since so many, many scrollers were trading this art on their forum. I saw member after member get booted, just because they sided with the law, and would point out illegal logo distribution, each time someone posted one.

Technically, I actually think it may be legal to post copyrighted logo art work, in almost any form. It can be argued that it is being shown because it looks cool, or for educational purposes. It's not illegal until you actually embroider it, or carve it, or print it. I think I can post a Nike swoop logo up here, as a pattern, pointing out the challenge I had with the arcs and curves. I don't believe that's illegal. Nor is it illegal for someone to download that pattern I posted, to help me with my challenge. It's not until we carve it, to hang on our wall, or give away, that we perform something illegal. I believe it's the "use" of these logos that's illegal. I can actually carve it, and throw the carving away, and I've done nothing illegal....it's not until I use it by hanging it on the wall, that I've crossed the line.

In any event, I've found this forum tremendously helpful, for so many things, and I simply wanted to share what I know, and don't know, on this topic.
Carve on, my friends.

[badbert]

There is a forum member here, who claimed copyright on a soldier memorial he is giving away for free from his site. He modeled a picture of a gun and boots. But because I converted his "free image" to Carvewright pattern, supposedly I violated a copyright. I rarely share patterns since then, for fear of retribution.

[liquidguitars]

you can use any logo you like but you need to blur into 1"x1" pixels.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Copyright is getting some BIG attention after Sarah Palin's Staff used a 911 photo... I have seen that photo about 30 times this past week used in Fire Dept Logos and Facebook Posts.... I don't want to turn this into a political thing... I just wanted to make a point that more and more lawyers are making a living protecting copyright... And with the Google Image Search tools... Getting the attention you may not want could cost you money out of pocket...

Since WE are an open Forum you can EXPECT that if you post or offer Copyright Stuff especially the BIG Name Stuff and SPORTS... Expect the knock at the door.. All the Laser Engraving Forums and such are buzzing about copyright...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/14/sarah-palin-sued_n_3926220.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D375318

Stepping off my soapbox.... a "tide" soapbox... LOL..

AL

[DickB]

Adding fuel to the fire:
"Trademarks, copyrights, and patents protect different types of intellectual property. A trademark typically protects brand names and logos used on goods and services. A copyright protects an original artistic or literary work. A patent protects an invention."
(http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/BasicFacts.pdf)


So logos are actually protected by trademarks.

Why would logo owners be so protective of their trademarked logos?
Companies that license their trademarks should be aware that their licensed trademarks may be declared abandoned and unenforceable if they engage in what is known as “naked licensing.” Naked licensing occurs when a licensor fails to exercise adequate quality control over a trademark licensee’s use of the licensed trademark. When courts find naked licensing, the nearly inevitable result is a judicial declaration of trademark abandonment.


(http://www.insidecounsel.com/2011/09/06/ip-the-bare-facts-on-naked-licensing)



So if a logo owner simply lets you use their logo, without a license and without quality control, they could lose the logo.

[liquidguitars]

That's right copyright is only as good as your clam of ownership. Why company's respond quickly.

[TerryT]

A couple of years ago we had contracts with some of the major sunglasses manufactures. We had one guy that traveled around to county fairs, malls, etc. You know those booths that sell sunglasses? When he found counterfiet glasses, which was most of the time, he would call the police to shut them down and he would attempt to confiscate all (sometimes hundreds of pairs) the fake glasses. These folks were getting up to $180 each for some. The companies were notified and did the follow up action. We usually had a couple hundred pairs of fake Oakleys in the office at any one time. Most high dollar companies have people traveling around checking for unlicensed use of their logos or counterfit products.

At just about any craft fair you will see folks with their creations sporting NFL logos. Someone almost always confronts them and asks if they are licensed to reproduce the logos. Of course they are not. Lots of folks would turn them in given the chance.

[dehrlich]

Has anyone who wanted to make a product to sell at something like an art fair ever written to the logo's organization and asked for permission to use it in this limited way? Just wondering if some organizations even have pricing guidelines for use of their logo, i.e. 5-10% of selling price? If so, do they require picture of how it is to be used? I worked with one very local higher ed institution when making items for local non=profit organizations' auctions (donation NOT selling). They required submission of what I was making, who it was going to, and how many I was making. They agreed to let me use it at no charge but only for the purposes in the application, but I could update who I made it for with a simple letter. If I wanted to make it to sell they had a different, much more complicated application process and then charged a fee for each product sold. I did not find out the prices because I was not going to sell. I doubt other organizations are that easy to work with. But if you are working to benefit others which many of you do (in addition to selling) you may find many organizations look kindly on that.

Actually I have a license to make and sell stuff from Kansas University. Cost $50 plus 10% of anything I make over $500 off stuff with their logo or identity. They are one of the easy ones. I would like to do some of the other popular schools from here, but KSU, of which I am an alumni, goes through a big national company and it's expensive. So, I make stuff with the enemies logo because I can, and because it sells. I'll admit I have made a few pieces with logos I shouldn't have, but reading this thread I am going to stop doing that unless I have permission.

[Digitalwoodshop]

The Military has tightened up it's enforcement of Copyright.... I will just lump trademarks and all the variations into copyright....

A interesting thread on Sawmill Creek with some interesting views in the Engraving Forum. Many DO actually PAY for some stuff and some have a different opinion on it...

I believe you will be able to view this. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206401-US-Military-Trademarks-and-Copyrights&highlight=Military+Logo

This is the latest in a long line of threads on the topic... I have a new site reserved RetiredNavyChief.com and at some time will need to deal with the permission part of getting started... I opened it when on a whim when I did a search and found that it had been given up by someone.... I snapped it up.... The guy that has NavyChief.com is a fantastic artist.... Every Navy Ship has a Visitor Badge System and I am going to try to market my Epoxy Dome Fire Tags as visitor badges....

AL

[mtylerfl]

Pretty simple...when in doubt, ASK for permission from the organization before using any of their logos, symbols, mascots, etc. Either they will say 'yes' or 'no'. If they say 'yes', then of course you need this in WRITING and to keep on file in case someone wants to challenge you down the road! If the answer is 'no'...just wave it goodbye and move on to something else.

Often, they will want a royalty or other fee from you (especially sports teams!!), as well as a full description and maybe a sample that shows exactly how you will be using their logo. Military branches are particularly careful about this...they don't want someone to disgrace a service branch either by a creating a sub-par "cruddy" product or some inappropriate use.

[cestout]

Ever notice that restaurants have their own birthday jingle? Two old school teachers is why.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Ever notice that restaurants have their own birthday jingle? Two old school teachers is why.

I was watching a TV Program from the early 80's and they sang Happy Birthday at a Restaurant and I knew it was prior to the Lawyers getting involved...

I remember the first time I was in a San Diego Restaurant and they came out with a small cake singing "Happy, Happy, Happy, followed by 3 claps..." over and over.... Later I asked and was told the story about COPYRIGHT....

AL

[lynnfrwd]

I was in a town and saw a plaque about them. Lexington ky maybe.

[eelamb]

Bringing this thread to the top of the list. Hoping the ebay sellers knows how to read, and will see he is illegal in his actions of selling patterns make by others here on the forum. Weather it be originals or copied material it is still illegal to sell the patterns. I sure hope some lawyer get a hold of him.

[dehrlich]

Bringing this thread to the top of the list. Hoping the ebay sellers knows how to read, and will see he is illegal in his actions of selling patterns make by others here on the forum. Weather it be originals or copied material it is still illegal to sell the patterns. I sure hope some lawyer get a hold of him.

Amen to that Eddie! I know i'm no expert and the patterns I make are not great, but at least I make my own most of the time. And if I ever found someone selling mine without permission I would be upset like you are. Which one is it that you are refering to? I have no problem sending him a message, or reporting it to Ebay.

[DickB]

I don't really want to open up an extended legal discussion, but I question whether it is illegal to sell patterns posted in a public forum such as this. I would think that once posted with no stated restriction the work would be considered in the public domain. You might want to consult a lawyer. When I post patterns here, I figure they are being made available for any purpose, including collecting and selling if someone wants to do that. If I don't want that to happen, I would provide some kind of protection, such as offering it in the Pattern Depot.

[SteveNelson46]

I don't really want to open up an extended legal discussion, but I question whether it is illegal to sell patterns posted in a public forum such as this. I would think that once posted with no stated restriction the work would be considered in the public domain. You might want to consult a lawyer. When I post patterns here, I figure they are being made available for any purpose, including collecting and selling if someone wants to do that. If I don't want that to happen, I would provide some kind of protection, such as offering it in the Pattern Depot.

AMEN DickB!

[Proctorw]

It may not be Illegal, but I think it sure is unethical! EELamb puts alot of work into his patterns and when he is kind enough to offer his patterns for free, I think anyone who sells them is lower than low. Not much different than selling your food stamp cards....

[dehrlich]

It may not be all together illegal to sell them once posted, but claiming they are yours or that "we put a lot of work into making sure these patterns work well" sure is dancing on a thin line. I know if I were going to use a pattern that someone had posted to make more than just one or two pieces, I would certainly ask permission of that person to do it. For example, I take a pattern someone else made, say the Paddlehead welcome sign, and some store wants to order 50 of them from me. Would it not be proper to ask permission to do that of the person that made the pattern? Of course it would. Same thing goes for the pattern its self. One or two no big deal, 50 or more is a big deal. Just my $0.025 (inflation you know).

[fwharris]

I also agree that it is not ethical/legal to sell a free item as being ones own work. I bet the person(s) doing so thinks the same way as they are not trying to defend their actions here. I have posted questions on the ebay listing and I am betting I will never get an answer.

These projects and patterns being posted here are for people to use to make carvings with no restrictions on the number of carvings being done.

[eelamb]

PUBLIC DOMAIN

There is no easy method to determine whether a work is in the public domain because the laws are complex and have changed numerous times over the years. Here are some rules of thumb that will help you confirm the copyright status of a work:

1. If the work was published in the United States prior to 1923, it is in the public domain.


2. For works published between 1923 and March 1, 1989, it depends on whether the certain statutory formalities were observed, such as providing a notice of copyright on the work or renewing the copyright per statutory deadlines. Examples:



a) If the work was published in the United States between 1923 and 1978 without a notice, it is in the public domain. (Note: If the work published during this period has a notice, it is protected for 95 years from the date of publication.)


b) If the work was published in the United States between 1978 and March 1, 1989 without a notice and registration, it is in the public domain. (Note: If the work published during this period has a notice, but not a registration, it is protected for 70 years from the death of the author.)


c) If the work was published in the United States between 1923 and 1963 with a notice, but copyright was not renewed, it is in the public domain.



3. After March 1, 1989, all works (published and unpublished) are protected for 70 years from the date the author dies. For works of corporate authorship (works made for hire), the copyright term is the shorter of 95 years from publication, or 120 years from creation.

[dehrlich]

I wanted to share this. After I commented on this earlier I decided to message the guy on Ebay and got a reply.

I said:

Dear sfsales2000,

Hey, where do you get your patterns? Actually I know, you skim them off of the various forums from those who work hard to make them.

- dmwoodworks

And to that I got the following reply:

Dear dmwoodworks,


I have contributed many patterns to the forum, I have reported your account to ebay for the harassing messages you have sent today. Please do not email or message me any more, any further communication from you will be reported as further harassment.

- sfsales2000

So I guess that means he feels since he has contributed that it's ok for him to take anything he wants and resell it. What about if I were to buy a pattern in the pattern depot, then resell several copies of it at a lower price on Ebay... that wouldn't be legal I bet. Anyway, thought I would share. And he hasn't reported me for anything because I have not gotten any notification of it.

[eelamb]

Good reading http://law.unh.edu/franklin-pierce-ip-center/studying-ip-at-unh-law/ip-basics/copyright-internet
Another one http://www.pitt.edu/~skvarka/education/copyright/

Research internet copyright

Copyright in General


What is copyright?
Copyright is a form of protection grounded in the U.S. Constitution and granted by law for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works.

What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf)."

How is a copyright different from a patent or a trademark?
Copyright protects original works of authorship, while a patent protects inventions or discoveries. Ideas and discoveries are not protected by the copyright law, although the way in which they are expressed may be. A trademark protects words, phrases, symbols, or designs identifying the source of the goods or services of one party and distinguishing them from those of others.

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf).”

Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf)” and Circular 38b (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38b.pdf), Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works.

I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?
The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

Is my copyright good in other countries?
The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights. However, the United States does not have such copyright relationships with every country. For a listing of countries and the nature of their copyright relations with the United States, see Circular 38a (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf), International Copyright Relations of the United States.

[fwharris]

I wanted to share this. After I commented on this earlier I decided to message the guy on Ebay and got a reply.

I said:

Dear sfsales2000,

Hey, where do you get your patterns? Actually I know, you skim them off of the various forums from those who work hard to make them.

- dmwoodworks

And to that I got the following reply:

Dear dmwoodworks,


I have contributed many patterns to the forum, I have reported your account to ebay for the harassing messages you have sent today. Please do not email or message me any more, any further communication from you will be reported as further harassment.

- sfsales2000

So I guess that means he feels since he has contributed that it's ok for him to take anything he wants and resell it. What about if I were to buy a pattern in the pattern depot, then resell several copies of it at a lower price on Ebay... that wouldn't be legal I bet. Anyway, thought I would share. And he hasn't reported me for anything because I have not gotten any notification of it.


He must have that response all typed up and stored away. I got the same response on each of his listings that I asked about.

I have contributed many patterns to the forum, I have reported your account to ebay for all the harassing messages you have sent today. Don't you think one message would be enough or did you feel you had to send me so many all with the same wording? Please do not email or message me any more, any further communication from you will be reported as further harassment.

[fwharris]

Thanks for sharing Eddie!

[CW-HAL9000]

I have a question. I was hesitant to ask because one time eelamb you questioned me on whether I was someone else who was selling on eBay. Which was wierd because I was new to the forum and did not even know what you were talking about. Anyway a lot of the patterns on here are made from images collected on google. In fact a few days ago two different people had made the same Santa head and posted them without knowing the other had already done it, so if patterns are made from images culled from the internet does ownership or copyrights still apply? I don't think these sellers should be doing this on eBay but do pattern makers have recourse if they did not create the pattern from original drawings.? And how about the pattern store? How many people are selling patterns on the store or in there own websites that were made from artwork they culled from around the web or by scanning items they bought at a store? I think this is very complicated and unfortunate.

[eelamb]

I carver I did not ask if your were selling patterns. I asked you about another person. This was for permissions to join another web site.
OK to answer your question, images taken from the internet still has ownership to the original creator. That original creator can if they wish bring a law suite against the person selling the patterns. From what I read the creator of the patterns would not have any problem since law suites are for monetary gains, and the pattern creator using the image made nothing on it. But if they are selling it then yes they can have a suite against them. The dark area is modifications to the original artwork. Since the pattern is in a 3d form the artwork has been modified in an artistic way which changes the original form. This being said it is still a gray area and one should be careful. I know I am guilty of using internet images, but I also post a lot of original work. Yet lets face it a tire is a tire, a photo of a tree may be copyrighted, but then again is it not the property of the land owner? We may see something years ago then draw it today without remembering, where we saw it and think we designed it. In truth we did design it but someone may argue with you about that point, just because it is close to theirs. When in doubt walk away, I believe someone here stated that.
Also remember most patterns posted here are asked for by the forum members, or by their customers, so the creators are making the pattern for them and not trying to sell it. If those on here object to the pattern being made from images we did not create, then we can easily stop making them.

[CW-HAL9000]

Thank you eelamb for your response. Actually when you questioned me was in response to a pattern you emailed me. As for the web site I was never approved for membership and I still don't know why. What you said about free patterns makes sense but what about people selling patterns they made from images culled on the internet? I am sure a lot of those on pattern store and on personal websites were made in this manner.

[fwharris]

I am guessing just about every pattern made had some reference image used to do so. Fairly large gray area I suppose.

[jpaluck]

Eddie,

This sound familiar? response to question on e-bay

Dear sfsales2000,

The horse you are showing in your picture bottom left is THE EXACT horse I made and shared in the carvewright forum. I gave you NO permission to re-sell. Please remove and let me know it is gone
- cncmodelmaker86

Dear cncmodelmaker86,

Where did you get the image you used? perhaps we both used the same image. If you have proof you created the original drawing or image I will be happy to remove.
- sfsales2000

[eelamb]

John, it is very easy to prove or disprove. First off a patterns can only be edited by the creator. Ask him to modify it in some way that designer can not do, yet any 3d software out there can. If he can not modify it, then it is not his to sell. He did not create it. The clock on ebay with the plane, hammer, and hand saw is my design. I created it. I asked for my patterns to be remove and I state they are not for resell. It does not matter to the seller. Like he told you he created it, NOT TRUE. HE did create the assembly of the parts that made up the clock using others patterns. I did not push the pattern I made for some time later I found an image very close to the pattern I made on the internet. So I figured I must have seen it before. Yet think of it, placement of the three items, I am sure has been done hundreds of times in images over the years, by others. Yet each is copyrightable.

Icarver I answered your question about creating patterns from images for sale. Be it on the web or in the store, they can be sued, and again it is a gray area since the image is no longer a 2d but a 3d, and it has artistic changes made to it. And you were right I asked because you requested a pattern I had made. I did give you the pattern after we talked via email.

The fact is sfsales2000 does not make patterns, he has never shared anything he has created, unless it is an import of an images into designer, and we all know what those look like. Some of the patterns he claims are his creation would be hard for me to create. I am done voicing my feeling here. If the forum feels he is right in what he is doing then so be it. I will move on, and leave you with that great pattern maker to help you out.

After all he has made over 2000 patterns, funny how they all look like patterns in the pattern depot.

[jpaluck]

Eddie yep funny...maybe we used the same image....what a joke. The Santa I recently posted Alan and I clearly used the same reference image BUT there were MAJOR differences - not to mention they were reversed ie Mirrored. I have been modeling for a while and there is NO WAY to get a model exactly the same..NONE..it's impossible you and I know it.

Eddie, also glad your clocks are being put to good use. Guess if you have restitution to pay for prior e-bay stuff and theivery..you do what ya gotta do. Guess like the old saying goes once a thief always a thief. Hmmm and that aint gray.

[eelamb]

Icarver, I forgot to mention, even though the images came from the internet and they are copy protected, many times the author gives permission to unlimited usage. I look for this, and stay away from any of the photobucket type images, for the later will get you a law suite..

[CW-HAL9000]

Thank you again eelamb this conversation is going places I don't want to go so I am exiting the post.

[want2b]

Just want to say thanks for the information on the copyright laws, especially the detail eelamb provided. I'm not a creator via software but occasionally do scans of objects I find. I have no way to know the original creator to contact but there may be still somebody out there who has rights. Will continue to post anything I scan but with the notation that it is a scan and not for resale as others do. As noted earlier, a lot of very gray areas we could probably chew on for years
Also want to add my thanks to those that share their labors here, I can't imagine how angry it makes them to see somebody pirating their products. You can see the level of posting patterns has drastically declined since the start of the Ebay seller, I'm surprised anybody shares at all anymore. To repeat myself, thank you to all the sharers for helping the members and not letting a *#*@ person totally change you.

Rick H.