More finishing questions

[Geophyrd]

So, I'm working on a 7" wide board that is long and has lettering in it (Black Chauncery font). I stained the board, waiting two days for it to dry. Then I applied the gold paint into the lettering. After waiting another day, I went to sand off the paint on the outside of the letters and it was terrible. I tried sandpaper, steel wool, even the buffing wheel on my dremel. Got most of the paint off the outside of the letters, but the letters have some muck in them that is making it so you cant see the gold underneath. Its heavy, even feels a little wet. It may be steel wool fragments, but i can't tell for sure. I can't seem to clean it out, particularly on the smaller letters.

What's more, it took the stain off the wood around the letters. If I restain, its going to get into the letters, making it even worse.

Thoughts? And thanks in advance for any helpful advice!

[badbert]

Post some pics, we have all screwed up one way or another. So collectively we have made almost every mistake! Post yours so we can help. The worst case scenario... recarve the same board and start over! One thing I do is apply a thin coat of poly, just thick enough to be smooth. This way, the paint doesn't penetrate very deep. And a topcoat will seal the paint.

[ladjr]

I agree with Bert, I always spray one coat of laquer before I paint the details. It seems to make it easyier to remove.

[TerryT]

yep I third it. Stain first, seal so it is smooth, paint, wipe excess paint of the edges and spray finish.

Easy schmeasy as Tommy Mac would say!LOL

[lawrence]

Well, as bert mentioned- the good news is that we have all been in your shoes and it is just a part of the learning process. The bad news is that once you've screwed up a finish, it can be difficult to un-screw it.... perhaps some wiping with mineral spirits and a toothbrush may get out the steel wool, but even then you'll probably still have paint in the pores. I would try it but then quickly move on to re-carving if I were in your shoes.

I seal my stuff first too before painting, but I use a washcoat of 1# shellac. It will still allow any wood finish or stain to soak in but it will block the paint from entering the pores. It also dries VERY quickly compared to oil-based poly. This is just my method though-- I'd try out multiple methods until you find one that you like best. The key with finishing is to practice your technique on scrap pieces so that you sharpen your skills.

One more small note-- I gave up using steel wool years ago because of problems similar to yours. I've found that using 3m "scrubbie" pads (I get mine from a woodworking supply company) works better-- there is no chance of fraying steel wood getting loose in my finish (or in my fingers which really bugged me) They are similar to this
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Brite-General-Purpose-6-Inch/dp/B000LPN3WQ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1349318947&sr=8-6&keywords=3m+scouring+pad

Hope this helps,
Lawrence

[Geophyrd]

Recarving would not be my first choice. Nothing against carving but it took 22 hours to carve the first one! And that, despite a flexshaft that wanted to melt (had to relube twice during operation).
Pic 1-4: The paint
Pic 5-8: The scrape

Picture 8 really shows the problem. The gold paint looks great, when you can actually see it.

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[badbert]

Sorry, but that is a beautiful carve! I would not even try to strip it! If it was worth 22 hours to the first time... it's worth another 22 hours to get right. In better news... I love that patina look! I even like it where you scraped the letters. I would start on a second one, and distress that one. Wire brush it and then scotch bright it smooth, and then some deep satin poly. That steel wool will rust eventually, and create some weird rust colors. I agree with the scotch-brite pads. But if you buy cheap ones they will leave fuzz. Just my opinion of course.

[johnsonswamp]

It almost looks like you put the stain on to thick, in the right environment it can stay gummy for days before curing. Multiple coats is always better then 1 thick coat. Best way is as others said to coat it before painting and wipe off excess asap.
I have had great luck with the paint and stain pens when doing lettering.

[lawrence]

+1 to the suggestion that perhaps your carve wasn't completely cured. It looks like you have residue from steel wood (and perhaps a shop rag or paper towel?) in it. I would try wiping the whole thing down with liberal application of mineral spirits with a 3m pad (for jobs like this you can even use a kitchen scourer.. the sponge soaks up the mineral spirits and the 3m pad helps loosen everything. If you have a wet/dry vac, this may help you collect some of the "shmooze" as you go. Keep a fairly clean green scrubbie and get it as clean as you can. As I suggested before, a toothbrush will help you get into those tough to reach places. After you get it as clean as you can, let it dry and then give it another go with a clean scrubbie and some mineral spirits. The point is to get as much off as you can and then start over. If needed you can use the sponge sandpaper to get things a little cleaner too. 120 grit shouldn't hurt the detail of the carve too much if you are careful.

Once you get there, That carve would really benefit IMHO from a seal coat before painting.

One more tiny note- if you are using the glitter paint on your table (martha stewart brand) for your lettering, it is notoriously hard to get it it to show cleanly against a dark background. I highly recommend using that latex based paint for wide areas and using an enamel (paint pen or model paints) to actually highlight the letters. I can just never get that latex based glitter paint to show up properly at all angles and in all lights. It seems like it'll be fine under floures. lighting but then disappear under incandescent or vice versa :)

One more tiny hint- a small fan turned towards your flexshaft will work wonders at keeping it cool through long carves. I've not had to lube mine more than about every 75 hours or so but I almost always have a fan on it (on low)

No matter what though, that looks like a very nice carve and I look forward to seeing more pics when it is done.

[Geophyrd]

Thanks for all the helpful advice! I've gone and bought a brass brush, which did nothing. I don't want to use mineral spirits (isn't that paint thinner?) because I don't want to completely start over. Right now, I've been using dental picks and tip of a nail to dig the stuff out. I may simply paint over the gunk and restain.

For the one that mentioned that it looked like I overstained...absolutely true. I did it the first time on the headboard and had to match. And the headboard came out beautiful with high gloss poly in 10-11 coats (with some gold leaf mixed in for good measure).

PS...I'll post a link to pictures of the overall build (been at it since May) later when I'm not at work and locked out of FB)

[Geophyrd]

This is the build for the bed I've spent the summer working on. Lots of Carvewright carves going on all over the plan. I'm almost (just almost) ready to stop crafting and start constructing. Which I expect will be about an hours work.
If you are interested, the link is HERE. I'll post pics of the completed bed to the Forum here once its finished.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150844261192960.416336.651622959&type=1&l=5bfbfda84b

[Ike]

I am a bit late, but one issue I see is an non flat background. A little of my background I have been in the sign business for 32 years, not sure why I posted that?! Lol I guess to let you know I have some experience! Anyway with sign with a flat background and recessed letters I spray or hand paint the letters and with a planer plane off or sand the paint. With your project I saw a bumpy background so using a planer or power sander is out! I don't advise using a scraper, it could dig into the wood and chip.

I know you stained the board first which is oil based and then I am pretty sure you used water based paint? Well water based paint does not work well with oil based products. When ever I stained a sign I would paint first, sand and then stain. The stain is very easily removed with a clean cloth. Carefully stain after trying not to get too much stain into the letters.

Plus I suggest raised lettering next time, but that does not help you now! What I suggest is using a paint remover and a soft brush. Sorry if I am repeating somebody else, I didn't read all the post. A brass bush is soft and there are water based removers that work great. I know others like to stain or seal before painting, but I never needed to do that.

Yes carving the board again would work, but 22 hours! If you do carve again try raising the letters then you can stain first and sand the letters and paint. But if it was me I would try a water based paint remover and a soft brush and some hand sanding. Then if it does not work as well as you like then carve a new piece!

Hope my post makes sense and helped?

Ike

[lawrence]

great post Ike- your expertise is invaluable around here. Just to clarify- any time I advise that someone use a card scraper, I am talking about one of these. You're right that a normal handyman scraper can be a very crude tool and I also don't advise using it. Here is a card scraper
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32670&cat=1,310,41069&ap=1

and here is one being used- you can see how it would be virtually impossible to gouge the wood-- in fact it really creates a very smooth (smoother than I can get from sandpaper-- burnished) surface. I use them whenever I have to smooth a surface with very swirling or backtracking grain or when I have crossgrain to smooth (like an inlay)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdmYpS6nliQ

here's a video... it really is a great tool (warning, this is a video showing how to set up a scraper plane... and is a dry video unless you own one)
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Home/VideoPopup.aspx?v=4


If I say "scraping plane" I mean this... and if you have one (which I happen to... ) you'll know it :) because they are AMAZING!
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/Page.aspx?p=48431&cat=1,310

A card scraper (and a tuned scraping plane) has practically zero chance of ever digging in and does a great job at lots of tricky tasks. It takes a while to learn how to sharpen them properly, but once you do you'll have 5 or 6 laying around for different uses. I use them for everything from preparing a surface for finish to scraping off paint. they work amazingly well.

Thanks for the reminder to make a clarification Ike, and thanks for the great post too!

Lawrence

[b.sumner47]

To add another trick that I use for small or tight spots, I use a razor blade " One Sided Only ".


Capt Barry

[Ike]

great post Ike- your expertise is invaluable around here. Just to clarify- any time I advise that someone use a card scraper, I am talking about one of these. You're right that a normal handyman scraper can be a very crude tool and I also don't advise using it. Here is a card scraper
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32670&cat=1,310,41069&ap=1

and here is one being used- you can see how it would be virtually impossible to gouge the wood-- in fact it really creates a very smooth (smoother than I can get from sandpaper-- burnished) surface. I use them whenever I have to smooth a surface with very swirling or backtracking grain or when I have crossgrain to smooth (like an inlay)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdmYpS6nliQ

here's a video... it really is a great tool (warning, this is a video showing how to set up a scraper plane... and is a dry video unless you own one)
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Home/VideoPopup.aspx?v=4


If I say "scraping plane" I mean this... and if you have one (which I happen to... ) you'll know it :) because they are AMAZING!
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/Page.aspx?p=48431&cat=1,310

A card scraper (and a tuned scraping plane) has practically zero chance of ever digging in and does a great job at lots of tricky tasks. It takes a while to learn how to sharpen them properly, but once you do you'll have 5 or 6 laying around for different uses. I use them for everything from preparing a surface for finish to scraping off paint. they work amazingly well.

Thanks for the reminder to make a clarification Ike, and thanks for the great post too!

Lawrence

Lol not a problem Lawrence! With his sign the background has raised squares so not being flat I can see only bad things!!! It is hard enough to use a scraper on a flat surface!!! It just a tough removal with the squares!

Ike

I looked at the OP photos and he removed almost all the paint and now has gunk in the letters. I still suggest a remover or paint thinner and a soft brush. Then maybe mask the letters with masking tape and using a exacto knive cut around the inside of letters and paint again?

[Geophyrd]

Took some advice from the board here...

I tried repainting, then carefully restaining. Stain got into some of the letters and looked like cr&p. So, went to the art supply store and got some gold leaf pens and I found a stain pen using the same Dark Oak Minwax stain I was using on the rest. I've repainted the letters again (fourth time), and waiting to make sure paint and stain are dry. I bought some of the 3M pads and I'll try to get the paint off the edges of the letter again.

Frankly, this was disappointingly difficult. NOT the first project I've painted letters in on, but the first one where I was also staining the project. Won't make that mistake again.

[Geophyrd]

Now to the poly! Going to doe 10 coats, with gold leaf mixed into the second or third coat.


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