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Ike
09-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Okay I know here I go again, but I feel pretty strong about using an apostrophe correctly! I have been making signs for 32 years and never yes never added an incorrect apostrophe! That said am I better then anybody else? NO!!! I learned from my uncle who has been in the sign business since 1976 the proper use of an apostrophe. In signs the apostrophe is use to show possession, I.E. The Smith's House or to use an apostrophe for a letter, I.E. The Thomas' the apostrophe replaces the "S". The Thomas's looks funny and is incorrect, well yes and no! You can add the "S", but it looks weird!

Why am I posting this? For the new sign makers some may not know and some may not care and some may think I am out of my mind! Here is a link to the definition for an apostrophe, http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/apostrophe. Of course an apostrophe is use for contractions such as "Can not" ....Can't an "N and an O" is replaced with the apostrophe.

Now at this point you may be saying, "Hey wait when you add an apostrophe to a sign for example, " The Butlers, Tom and Mary" Well that shows where they live and it is there home! Sorry no!! Unless on the sign it reads, " The Butler's House" an apostrophe is not used. The Butlers shows pluralization and not possessions.

I know customers may ask for an apostrophe, but I ask them if they know about the proper use of the apostrophe? If they are adamant about an apostrophe I ask them to tell others I advised them it is not proper and I advised them, but the customer wanted the apostrophe! I have yet to put an apostrophe incorrectly in a sign!

I hope I have enlighten some of you and not offended anyone. If I have offended anyone I apologize! But doing the correct and proper things in the sign business sets the professionals apart from the amateurs! I have yet had an issue with a customer in 32 years Well again I hope nobody has been offended!

Ike

Digitalwoodshop
09-20-2012, 11:37 AM
IKE.... Your 100% Correct..... We have talked about this before....

I make MANY incorrect Signs.... I leave it to the Customer.... And laugh all the way to the BANK...

AL

GrammaPam
09-20-2012, 11:59 AM
In the awards business I learned people want things the way they are comfortable with. I quit arguing the point. Language evolves. Look at all the words that change their meaning over a 5 or 10 year span.

Here we are carving with computers, gotta take the good with the bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jum7DsNZqO0

brdad
09-20-2012, 02:06 PM
I'm all for leaving the customer responsible for verifying the details, but I'd prefer not to carve something with obvious errors because it's a reflection of my work. If we make a sign with an incorrectly spelled word or bad punctuation, viewers will almost always blame the person who created it, not the owner of the piece.

unitedcases
09-20-2012, 02:35 PM
Same here, I lay out the project and then print it out. I make them "proof" it.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk 2.

Ike
09-20-2012, 07:59 PM
Well I believe your work reflects you! Yes you can laugh all the way to the bank big Al, but I won't make a sign incorrectly! I guess I am just a snob! But I have yet placed an apostrophe incorrectly! I explain to the customer it is grammatically incorrect and I rather not do the sign if they insist I add an apostrophe incorrectly!

Anyway I guess I am considered the apostrophe police! So I will keep my comments to my self and grit my teeth when I see an apostrophe used incorrectly!! I just wanted to help those who did not know!

Ike

ladjr
09-20-2012, 08:47 PM
Remember the Golden Rule. "The Customer is Always Right". If the customer is happy I'm happy

badbert
09-20-2012, 08:47 PM
Don't you dare Keep your comments to yourself. If you save one mistake, you could save a customer. I for one, suck at grammar... And appreciate your help!

mtylerfl
09-20-2012, 09:12 PM
Well I believe you work reflects you! Yes you can laugh all the way to the bank big Al, but I won't make a sign incorrectly! I guess I am just a snob! But I have yet placed an apostrophe incorrectly! I explain to the customer it is grammatically incorrect and I rather not do the sign if they insist I add an apostrophe incorrectly!

Anyway I guess I am considered the apostrophe police! So I will keep my comments to my self and grit my teeth when I see an apostrophe used incorrectly!! I just wanted to help those who did not know!

Ike

Count me in as apostrophe police, too! Doesn't do anybody any favors to NOT offer gentle correction - nobody wants to keep making the same mistakes over and over. Thank You for helping out all of us, Ike! Greatly appreciated!

lynnfrwd
09-20-2012, 09:26 PM
I appreciate you too, Ike. We love the lessons. Keep them coming and don't you dare stop posting!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lynnfrwd
09-20-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm a grammar person, too! Spent most my life correcting other people's grammar. Cajun's are the worst ... Love you Perry...and I'm not talking about you. Folks from Kansas are just as bad (Joe). Makes me so mad when he sends out newsletters without my input first. But, it's all good!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dbfletcher
09-20-2012, 09:37 PM
Well I believe you work reflects you! Yes you can laugh all the way to the bank big Al, but I won't make a sign incorrectly! I guess I am just a snob! But I have yet placed an apostrophe incorrectly! I explain to the customer it is grammatically incorrect and I rather not do the sign if they insist I add an apostrophe incorrectly!

Anyway I guess I am considered the apostrophe police! So I will keep my comments to my self and grit my teeth when I see an apostrophe used incorrectly!! I just wanted to help those who did not know!

Ike

How do you feel about explanation points? (just giving you a hard time Ike!) :p

lynnfrwd
09-20-2012, 09:39 PM
I love explanation points!!!!!


Has bugged me ever since I wrote it...it's EXCLAMATION....!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ike
09-20-2012, 09:41 PM
Remember the Golden Rule. "The Customer is Always Right". If the customer is happy I'm happy
Sorry Leo I don't believe in that golden rule, the customer is at times misinformed! All my customers have agreed with me, like I tell them....sorry I will not do profanity, gang signs or gang related or improper use of an apostrophe! I am the opposite if I am not happy then the customer will not be happy!

But like I tell them you have the right to be wrong!

Ike

PS I didn't mean I will stop posting I just will stop harping about an apostrophes! Oh explantions points are at the users discrection!!!!! I am not always the best at grammar, but I try!

Ike
09-20-2012, 10:39 PM
I have a question after thinking about Leo's comment about if the customer is happy I am happy. I ask this in the same gesture of the use of proper grammar. I am going to use Al's quilts/ wine stands for my question. Would you be happy selling a stand knowing there was something wrong with the product? Say a cracked board? The customer does not notice the crack, but you know of the problem. The customer is happy so what do you do? A. Let the customer go and hope it won't continue to crack? B. Glue the crack? C. Replace the part with a error free board? Myself I would fix the stand correctly!

Okay what if the customers wants the board to be cracked? Knowing it will soon crack all the way. Would you sell a stand to this customer? Even if they would be happy? You get the money and you are happy? I would refuse to sell a product made by me that did not pass my high standards! The same goes with proper grammar, the customer may think it is correct. However it is a product made by me and I may lose a sale.....

Well I am through with my fit!!! Lol thank for listening !!!

Ike

badbert
09-21-2012, 12:06 AM
Wow Ike! You are psychic or something! I just faced this exact dilemma! I made a carving for my cousin, the board I used, lent itself perfectly to fit the pattern. The even horizontal banding of the grain was perfect for the carve... One small problem... a crack. I debated this problem for a little while, I finally decided, that I didn't create the board, and it was recycled. I darn sure was not going to waste it! I filled it in with epoxy, working it into the crack as deep as I could. After it hardened I sanded it smooth, and carved it the next day. I told my cousin about the crack and showed her how I repaired it. She loved it anyway! And agreed with me that the grain was worth an almost invisible crack. If it becomes an issue, I will take care of it. But she will pay for the next piece of wood to carve it with! LOL
I consider myself a person of high-morals. But I am also a person that likes to make people happy! I once sold a car, for what I payed for it, (three years prior) and told the guy it needed a motor. I was honest with him, but he still wanted the car. I was happy, he was happy.
I don't think a questionable apostrophe would be an intent to defraud someone. LOL But I do see your point. When I worked at the Lincoln/Mercury dealer, our used car lot used to wholesale any trade-in that was not a Lincoln/Mercury. We used to get fantastic deals! The owner of the Dealer would not have his name attached to anything, but, a Lincoln/Mercury vehicle. I asked him why he would take a loss on these vehicles when he could have profited from their sales. He told me it was because he would have to rely on the reputation of other dealers, to repair those vehicles. And that meant his customers would be "AT" other dealers.
If another sign-maker see's the mistake, he could ridicule your sign without your knowledge. And use it as an example to steer customers his way.
But while we are on the subject of apostrophes. If a name ends in S such as Willis. The proper apostrophe for plural would be Willis'. What would the possessive apostrophe be? For example. You make a sign that say's " The Willis' ". Meaning there are more than one member of the Willis Family. But the sign hangs on their house. So the sign could mean that the family owns this property. So what would be correct? " Willis' " , " Willis's ", or " Willises " ? I think I will avoid this in the future by using "family" or "home" after the name! ;)

lawrence
09-21-2012, 12:52 AM
I think it is just difference in what all of us think our role is as both craftsmen(women) and what we believe the role of the customer is.

I personally will let a customer know if something is in error, but if they still want it that way I will document the order the way they order it and press forward. It's not a matter of getting the money and running, it's a matter of treating the customer's wishes with respect.

My recent ribbon signs are an example-- I knew that the black lettering on the dark background was not going to show up as well as white or silver lettering would have and offered that suggestion to the Commander. He still wanted the black lettering on a dark background. IMHO It would have been wrong for me to have refused to make the piece because I believed that his choice was wrong. If I had pressed too hard or said that I wouldn't make the piece as he wanted because I thought he was wrong I think that I could still consider myself a craftsman, but I could not consider myself a businessman. There is honor in both.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to run your business the way you choose to do so Ike, I'm just saying that it doesn't make the choice to take a different path any less honorable. You can still be a craftsman and put out a less than perfect product. I notice every flaw I can in my pieces and make a decision on how to treat it. Some I fix, some I replace,and some I leave because only I know about the flaw and I have to make a business decision because I am charging my customers. There isn't a person that works with wood that doesn't make a concession at some point-- it is up to us to decide where we limit that concession. Charging a customer 10 hours labor to make something PERFECT when the customer only asks for a 3-hour job is the wrong way to treat a customer. At the same time, eating those hours it takes to make a product perfect is not the model of a successful business. There is a reason that Holtey planes cost $7000+
http://thebestthings.com/newtools/karl_holtey_planes.htm
It is because Karl Holtey uses the business model "perfection at any cost". I charge that this is not the only successful and honorable business model.

IMHO, meeting the balance between compensation and the total satisfaction of my customers IS my final goal as a businessman. Anything else I do is self-aggrandizing, and while that has value... it is not relevant to the business itself though it has merit on my role as craftsman.

Lawrence

mathman
09-21-2012, 01:29 AM
But while we are on the subject of apostrophes. If a name ends in S such as Willis. The proper apostrophe for plural would be Willis'.

A plural shouldn't have an apostrophe in it. The plural of Willis would be Willises. Willis' would be ownership of something by Willis. Looked those rules up this past year for "Willys" (make of my 1950 truck).... :)

ladjr
09-21-2012, 01:34 AM
Ike
You missed my point. If the customer doesn't get what they want they will not give recommendation to friends for you. I just had a project that they wanted full names on one side and shorten names on other side. It looked unbalanced and I pointed it out, but I made it the way they asked.

I do not do this as a business. I only make projects I like and give them away for free. I'm retired and do it to relax. I have great respect for those of you that do it as a business and I love seeing your projects.

My father was a Carpenter and had a great shop, however he didn't want me to follow in his foot steps, so I ended up in a office and now I enjoy working in my shop.

Sorry for my life story but I wanted you to understand where I was coming from.




Leo
Life is to short carve something today

badbert
09-21-2012, 02:25 AM
A plural shouldn't have an apostrophe in it. The plural of Willis would be Willises. Willis' would be ownership of something by Willis. Looked those rules up this past year for "Willys" (make of my 1950 truck).... :) But this is exactly my point, the sign could be both, correct and wrong... depending on intent. Plural or possessive. LOL

Ike
09-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Wow Ike! You are psychic or something! I just faced this exact dilemma! I made a carving for my cousin, the board I used, lent itself perfectly to fit the pattern. The even horizontal banding of the grain was perfect for the carve... One small problem... a crack. I debated this problem for a little while, I finally decided, that I didn't create the board, and it was recycled. I darn sure was not going to waste it! I filled it in with epoxy, working it into the crack as deep as I could. After it hardened I sanded it smooth, and carved it the next day. I told my cousin about the crack and showed her how I repaired it. She loved it anyway! And agreed with me that the grain was worth an almost invisible crack. If it becomes an issue, I will take care of it. But she will pay for the next piece of wood to carve it with! LOL
I consider myself a person of high-morals. But I am also a person that likes to make people happy! I once sold a car, for what I payed for it, (three years prior) and told the guy it needed a motor. I was honest with him, but he still wanted the car. I was happy, he was happy.
I don't think a questionable apostrophe would be an intent to defraud someone. LOL But I do see your point. When I worked at the Lincoln/Mercury dealer, our used car lot used to wholesale any trade-in that was not a Lincoln/Mercury. We used to get fantastic deals! The owner of the Dealer would not have his name attached to anything, but, a Lincoln/Mercury vehicle. I asked him why he would take a loss on these vehicles when he could have profited from their sales. He told me it was because he would have to rely on the reputation of other dealers, to repair those vehicles. And that meant his customers would be "AT" other dealers.
If another sign-maker see's the mistake, he could ridicule your sign without your knowledge. And use it as an example to steer customers his way.
But while we are on the subject of apostrophes. If a name ends in S such as Willis. The proper apostrophe for plural would be Willis'. What would the possessive apostrophe be? For example. You make a sign that say's " The Willis' ". Meaning there are more than one member of the Willis Family. But the sign hangs on their house. So the sign could mean that the family owns this property. So what would be correct? " Willis' " , " Willis's ", or " Willises " ? I think I will avoid this in the future by using "family" or "home" after the name! ;)

Yes if it ends in"S" an apostrophe is needed. Even though it hangs on their home unless it reads the say the Butler's home or house or estates, cabin etc. Then the sign should read The Butlers.... I know about selling items you have own and not made. However I am talking about personal hand made products like signs! Yes I have repaired cracks that I found after a carve! I glued it with quick glue or Gorilla glue and with a torch you can hide the problem. The crack example I meant was a unfix able crack or a very noticeable crack. So I am adamant to the point of losing the order before adding an unnecessary grammar error!

So if it ends with"S" the rule is replacing a letter like in a contraction did not......didn't. Willis' ......Willis's It is not a matter of defraud like knowing there is an issue with car, putting an apostrophe and knowing it is wrong is a reflection of you and not the customer. Yes I tell them if I do please tell everyone I explained the correct grammar and you are incorrect, no wrong! That has always worked and I never lost an order!

Ike

Ike
09-21-2012, 11:08 AM
I think it is just difference in what all of us think our role is as both craftsmen(women) and what we believe the role of the customer is.

I personally will let a customer know if something is in error, but if they still want it that way I will document the order the way they order it and press forward. It's not a matter of getting the money and running, it's a matter of treating the customer's wishes with respect.

My recent ribbon signs are an example-- I knew that the black lettering on the dark background was not going to show up as well as white or silver lettering would have and offered that suggestion to the Commander. He still wanted the black lettering on a dark background. IMHO It would have been wrong for me to have refused to make the piece because I believed that his choice was wrong. If I had pressed too hard or said that I wouldn't make the piece as he wanted because I thought he was wrong I think that I could still consider myself a craftsman, but I could not consider myself a businessman. There is honor in both.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to run your business the way you choose to do so Ike, I'm just saying that it doesn't make the choice to take a different path any less honorable. You can still be a craftsman and put out a less than perfect product. I notice every flaw I can in my pieces and make a decision on how to treat it. Some I fix, some I replace,and some I leave because only I know about the flaw and I have to make a business decision because I am charging my customers. There isn't a person that works with wood that doesn't make a concession at some point-- it is up to us to decide where we limit that concession. Charging a customer 10 hours labor to make something PERFECT when the customer only asks for a 3-hour job is the wrong way to treat a customer. At the same time, eating those hours it takes to make a product perfect is not the model of a successful business. There is a reason that Holtey planes cost $7000+
http://thebestthings.com/newtools/karl_holtey_planes.htm
It is because Karl Holtey uses the business model "perfection at any cost". I charge that this is not the only successful and honorable business model.

IMHO, meeting the balance between compensation and the total satisfaction of my customers IS my final goal as a businessman. Anything else I do is self-aggrandizing, and while that has value... it is not relevant to the business itself though it has merit on my role as craftsman.

Lawrence

Lawrence first thank you! Yes I have ran into color problems and have gone with the customer. Yet again I have yet that I remember have misused an apostrophe! Yes the customer can tell others this guy won't carve what you want! If explained why it is a 50/50 chance I will gain another customer for my principals! Again I have not had this issue!

As forth to time I charge by the square foot! Yes I notice every flaw remember I hand rout my signs too. I have made the same sign 3 times or more before giving it to the customer! My feelings if I am not happy then nobody is happy! I do not charge for 3 signs or any extra time. I give the customer a price before I make the sign and they pay first. So no matter how many times it takes to carve a sign, sometimes the dang machine messes up and it takes a few tries! Just like hand routing there are time I am right on and other days I suck! Yet I have never passed the cost to the customer!

By charging by the square foot I had in the cost of extra material. Not unreasonable cost just enough, the average sign blank is no more then $3.00. Anyway we all run our business our own way! By no means am I saying," hey run your business my way!"

Ike

Ike
09-21-2012, 11:28 AM
A plural shouldn't have an apostrophe in it. The plural of Willis would be Willises. Willis' would be ownership of something by Willis. Looked those rules up this past year for "Willys" (make of my 1950 truck).... :)

I disagree even when you type the Willises the spell check shows it wrong. Both ways plural or possessive if a name ends in "S" and apostrophe is required! Why it is a proper noun! Even Willys ends with a "Y" so in that rule you drop the "Y" and add an "ies" The spell check even shows Willys incorrect it adds an apostrophe between the "Y" and "S"

Now it is grammatically correct to add the s to Willis's it looks awkward, however is correct. Here is another link for the subject. http://www.scribendi.com/advice/using_apostrophes.en.html

Anyway we all can't agree on everything!

Ike

dbfletcher
09-21-2012, 11:32 AM
I agree....

Ike
09-21-2012, 11:38 AM
Ike
You missed my point. If the customer doesn't get what they want they will not give recommendation to friends for you. I just had a project that they wanted full names on one side and shorten names on other side. It looked unbalanced and I pointed it out, but I made it the way they asked.

I do not do this as a business. I only make projects I like and give them away for free. I'm retired and do it to relax. I have great respect for those of you that do it as a business and I love seeing your projects.

My father was a Carpenter and had a great shop, however he didn't want me to follow in his foot steps, so I ended up in a office and now I enjoy working in my shop.

Sorry for my life story but I wanted you to understand where I was coming from.




Leo
Life is to short carve something today



Leo no I got your point and again I have yet to make an sign with incorrect grammar! Yes you may lose a customer, then again they may tell others and they may agree with you. But I don't get nasty with the customer or act like I am above them. Again I inform them of the correct grammar and they have always agreed. Most cases they just didn't know! It really isn't as big an issue as you may think!

As I posted before I am not saying to copy me! Run your business as you want! Now prepositions that is another subject!

Ike

Ike
09-21-2012, 11:40 AM
I agree....

Thanks Doug!!

Ike

Wow this subject has become an interesting subject!

mathman
09-21-2012, 12:53 PM
I disagree even when you type the Willises the spell check shows it wrong. Both ways plural or possessive if a name ends in "S" and apostrophe is required! Why it is a proper noun! Even Willys ends with a "Y" so in that rule you drop the "Y" and add an "ies" The spell check even shows Willys incorrect it adds an apostrophe between the "Y" and "S"

No, not Willy, Willys (which is pronounced "Willis" not "Willeez"). Willys is singular, not plural. Plural of Willys is Willyses. Relying solely on a spellchecker is a guaranteed way to wind up with something wrong - spellcheckers aren't comprehensive and can only tell you correct spellings on words it knows. Most don't know "Willys" so they won't know "Willyses". And for reference, this is what a "Willys" truck looks like:

56031

rcdages
09-21-2012, 01:02 PM
Keep on rocking in the Apostrophe world.

dbfletcher
09-21-2012, 01:07 PM
I say we just doawaywithallpunctuationspacingandgrammerandletsal ljustgetbacktomakingsawdustReallyhowlikelyisitwewi llevermeettheapostrophepoliceanywaysIalwayskeepmyd oorsandwindowslocked

(ok... I may have gone to far there)

edit: well thats odd, when i typed that there are no spaces, but as soon as i hit post... it generates random spaces on my behalf. I guess big brother really is watching)

lynnfrwd
09-21-2012, 01:09 PM
I say we just doawaywithallpunctuationspacingandgrammerandletsal ljustgetbacktomakingsawdustReallyhowlikelyisitwewi llevermeettheapostrophepoliceanywaysIalwayskeepmyd oorsandwindowslocked

(ok... I may have gone to far there)

edit: well thats odd, when i typed that there are no spaces, but as soon as i hit post... it generates random spaces on my behalf. I guess big brother really is watching)


LOL! How hard was it to type all of that and NOT use spaces?!

dbfletcher
09-21-2012, 01:14 PM
LOL! How hard was it to type all of that and NOT use spaces?!

I have a special keyboard just for that purpose... one with a broken spacebar! (is there anything more frustrating that trying to use a keyboard with a broken key?.... I think not)

skeeterman
09-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Here in Arkansaw the apostrophe just states that the husband and wife may also be cousins , coarse we don't know no better anyways
Steve

Smoken D
09-21-2012, 02:04 PM
Oh, I'm so thankful for math!:D Physics anyway, what I always delt with. You guys can have the grammer, was never my thing.:( Made no sense to me, but math, yea!!!:D

rcdages
09-21-2012, 02:06 PM
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''
This is apostrope code for ????????????????????????????????????

Ike
09-21-2012, 04:23 PM
No, not Willy, Willys (which is pronounced "Willis" not "Willeez"). Willys is singular, not plural. Plural of Willys is Willyses. Relying solely on a spellchecker is a guaranteed way to wind up with something wrong - spellcheckers aren't comprehensive and can only tell you correct spellings on words it knows. Most don't know "Willys" so they won't know "Willyses". And for reference, this is what a "Willys" truck looks like:

56031

Wow you took the subject out of context I am quite aware of Willys Jeeps. After my father in law passed away we gave away a 56 Willys. Sorry I made you mad about an apostrophe!!! You can use an apostrophe anyway you want right or wrong! Plus to mention AMC called the Willys as a name so it does end with an "S"

Lol like I said, time and time and time again! Make your signs the way you want! Grammatically correct or not, blame it on being in a southern state or family background whatever! Plus spell Willys the way you want I do not care! No I am not mad at all, just wondering how the rule for apostrophes has to do with a Jeep?

Ike


PS. I am done arguing about other's grammar use! As a professional sign maker I thought I help those who did not know!!!

ladjr
09-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Ike
You started out talking about spelling and now you are talking about construction defects which is a hold different situation . Of course I wouldn't produce a crack or other defect. You have two different things spelling and defects. They are totally different


Leo

Ike
09-21-2012, 05:12 PM
Ike
You started out talking about spelling and now you are talking about construction defects which is a hold different situation . Of course I wouldn't produce a crack or other defect. You have two different things spelling and defects. They are totally different


Leo

I am done Leo.... No it was not spelling.....grammar. The crack or defect was an example of the work of a shop. Incorrect grammar or a cracked board I will not do! So again sorry if I made you mad! With your carvings and projects do what you think is best! I was trying to help those who did not know. I thought we are here to help each other? I have been making signs for 32 years and consider myself a professional. So I do professional work, you can use an apostrophe the way you want.....

Ike

ladjr
09-21-2012, 06:35 PM
I am done Leo.... No it was not spelling.....grammar. The crack or defect was an example of the work of a shop. Incorrect grammar or a cracked board I will not do! So again sorry if I made you mad! With your carvings and projects do what you think is best! I was trying to help those who did not know. I thought we are here to help each other? I have been making signs for 32 years and consider myself a professional. So I do professional work, you can use an apostrophe the way you want.....

Ike

You apprear to be the one who is getting mad and will not even consider that you have your way, and I guess with 32 years of making signs you are the expert and as a professional you should know there are as many ways to do something as there are people. You appear to feel it is your way or your wrong. I have stated several ways that spelling and grammer are one and product defects are another. I have personally recarved many projects several times because I didn't like how it came out, maybe the gain of the wood, maybe the pattern. If a customer wants something spell a certain way that is fine. I will do it. I also don't charge for the projects I do, I have never received one penny. They are all for Churches, Schools, and Retirement Homes free of charge.

ladjr
09-21-2012, 06:38 PM
PS. I am done arguing about others grammar use! As a professional sign maker I thought I help those who did not know!!!

Is this proper english. Or did you intentionally make this statement

Ike
09-21-2012, 08:01 PM
You apprear to be the one who is getting mad and will not even consider that you have your way, and I guess with 32 years of making signs you are the expert and as a professional you should know there are as many ways to do something as there are people. You appear to feel it is your way or your wrong. I have stated several ways that spelling and grammer are one and product defects are another. I have personally recarved many projects several times because I didn't like how it came out, maybe the gain of the wood, maybe the pattern. If a customer wants something spell a certain way that is fine. I will do it. I also don't charge for the projects I do, I have never received one penny. They are all for Churches, Schools, and Retirement Homes free of charge.

Okay Leo last time I say this, "No I am not mad or upset" I explained how I do business and my feelings about apostrophes. I hesitated to post anything, but like ALL my customers in 32 years and I have made many many signs! I tell them about apostrophes usage and that is it! So trying to help the new sign makers I went ahead. If you read through the post in this thread I have said, I am not telling you how to run your business. I was trying to express a sign with an apostrophe for a single name I.E. The Bakers is incorrect! I did not make the rule as I did as a cop....I enforced the rules! However I would leave it that, but I would be accused of my way or no way!

My point for me....... I am talking about me...... If I do a sign may it be the material condition or grammar it is my work and I sign my name on the bottom so I so it correctly. I have made several free signs and I have never compromised my beliefs. Every sign I let the customer design the sign. How they want it, but I tell them I am not comfortable using an apostrophe incorrectly and every customer has agreed in 32 years!

So was my point to post the proper use of an apostrophe to show I am better or smarter then everyone else? Nope it was to help those who wanted the help! Did I start the thread to get into an argument about how others run their business or what they believe? Nope I did not! Like sharing some of the methods I have learned about painting, finishing etc. The same is for the apostrophe!

Leo I know the proper use of an apostrophe and if you use it wrong it is wrong! I was trying to share the proper use and let you know why I do. By no means did I say do it my way or you are wrong! So if you are okay with doing a sign the way the customer asked? That is fine I won't! I won't make gang related material or cursing or demonic or improper use of grammar! Now I have made signs that were a business that read Fish'n not Wish'n. I made a sign 3 times once at a fair because of a similar sign that read something about fishin' 2 times I put fishing!

I used the grammar and material defects as a principal in comparison. If you read the post I used it in two different ways one knowing of a crack and two the customer asking for a crack. My point was if you fixed the crack or made the product with a crack and the customer was happy.....I would not be happy. I strive to put out the best product that reflects on me. My point was a grammatically incorrect sign is the same as a cracked board to me! I may have fixed the crack or carved the apostrophe and the customer was happy.... I would not be happy, yes I have used tricks to fix signs my last sign is a great example. The campfire sign, the date was wrong and it was a wedding gift for this weekend. It was a long carve and a lot of hand work. The sign had all raised lettering so I removed the six and because of the letters being black I used hot glue and made a 3. I painted it clear coated it several more times and it will be there forever!

So let me correct the comparison if you say a crack would you repair the crack. If it looked really bad would you do it again? If yes why? Because it is a reflection of your work? That said, as yes! Then proper grammar should be as important to you as well for a normal last name sign! It is for me and that is how I operate my business

So again I am sorry for upsetting you and you can carve your signs the way you see fit.

Ike

brdad
09-21-2012, 08:06 PM
Can we do exclamation points tomorrow? My wife is always telling me one is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!! And not just exclamation points.........

Ike
09-21-2012, 08:25 PM
Can we do exclamation points tomorrow? My wife is always telling me one is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!! And not just exclamation points.........

Sure Brad!!! I too like more then one exclamation points! But you do the post!

Ike

badbert
09-21-2012, 08:55 PM
YAY!! We made it to two pages! LOL

Ike
09-21-2012, 09:15 PM
I want to add this I have read every post in this thread and I really tried not to appear as a know it all! I stated in almost every post that the use of an apostrophe is important to me and my work. By no means did I mean to convey this is the way everybody should operate their business. I have been told a name that ends with "S" does not need an aposthrophe. With a proper noun it does, even with Willys! If the proper noun of a family is Willys it should read, "The Willys' or The Willys's" Both is correct. Even with Willis or Thomas it was brought up with Willis you drop the "S" and add "ES" for Willies. Okay let's try that with Thomas....Thomaes, hmm that changes the name! So what do you do? Both names end with "S" agreed? Both names are proper nouns agreed? Then Thomas should read, "The Thomas' or Thomas's". So Willis should also be, "The Willis' or Willis's"

Then I used maybe a not a very good example of a cracked board verse the proper use of an apostrophe. I used to express both examples reflect the product a person produces. (Not any particular person) I even used the example of a customer wanting a cracked board. They are happy until it completely breaks! Then the customer is always correct was posted! Okay say you did just make the sign with an incorrect use of an apostrophe. They take it home and their friends ask, "who made the sign?" They tell them RC Woodworks.....why? The friend tells them the sign looks great, but the grammar is wrong! Your customer then says, "well I didn't know and the sign maker didn't say anything!" Now I have posted, I have told all my customers and they have told me, wow I didn't know or they have forgot and the sign is made grammatically correct.

I also said, I won't make with improper grammar unless it is a title or name i.e. a sign I made Fish'n not Wish'n. That is me and by no means do I expect anyone to follow my practices or it my way or no way! I am sorry if I offended anyone, Leo or mathman. I wanted to help those who are new, just like I have with painting and finishing signs.

So I am not mad a bit upset feeling like I am being attacked! So to everybody I offer this as a suggestion and use it if you like or not!!


Ike

badbert
09-21-2012, 10:01 PM
I don't think there is any ill-will towards you Ike! I ,personally, think of you as Legendary! So much to learn from you! This is in my part, good clean fun (with a little ribbing)! I tend to over use commas. My wife is always yelling at me over it. But it is my style... LOL Keep posting your great work!

lawrence
09-21-2012, 10:11 PM
I hope you didn't feel I was coming after you Ike- I appreciate what you do and was just adding my .02.

Lawrence

Ike
09-21-2012, 10:22 PM
I hope you didn't feel I was coming after you Ike- I appreciate what you do and was just adding my .02.

Lawrence

No not at all Lawrence or Bert! I appreciate the kind words, we made 5 pages!

Ike
09-22-2012, 08:35 PM
Well I sent 2 PM to Leo apologizing that our post got out of hand. That is why I really don't like the written word! It is hard to express your feelings and the context of meaning. I figured Leo blocked me so he most likely won't read this. If somebody will pass on my apology I would appreciate it a bunch!

Sorry to anybody else who may be offended, that is why I seldom post anything these days!

Ike

ladjr
09-22-2012, 10:53 PM
I never remember to check notification, and I have not blocked you. Thank you for your personal email.

PCW
09-22-2012, 11:10 PM
Well I sent 2 PM to Leo apologizing that our post got out of hand. That is why I really don't like the written word! It is hard to express your feelings and the context of meaning. I figured Leo blocked me so he most likely won't read this. If somebody will pass on my apology I would appreciate it a bunch!

Sorry to anybody else who may be offended, that is why I seldom post anything these days!

Ike

Ike you are one of my mentors on this forum. I enjoy reading your posts..now enough of that talk about seldom posting and get to work on some videos. I think you just take things to heart sometimes but that is one of the many reasons I like you and consider you a friend.

I don't think there was any need for a apologies on any ones part. It was just good clean discussion.

Ike
09-23-2012, 11:32 AM
I never remember to check notification, and I have not blocked you. Thank you for your personal email.

Good!! Thank you Leo really I was not mad or saying it may way or no way! The bottom line is to me is professionalism and may it be a cracked board or improper use of an apostrophe it is all the same to me. I just wanted to share it to those who did not know.

Ike

Ike
09-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Ike you are one of my mentors on this forum. I enjoy reading your posts..now enough of that talk about seldom posting and get to work on some videos. I think you just take things to heart sometimes but that is one of the many reasons I like you and consider you a friend.

I don't think there was any need for a apologies on any ones part. It was just good clean discussion.

Thanks Dan so what videos are you wanting to see? !!!

Rick

brdad
09-23-2012, 12:26 PM
I saw this in my feed today and thought it made me think of this tread:
And it works, Google's auto-complete will show something similar on your machine.

http://www.bytethebullet.com/images/grammar.png

PCW
09-23-2012, 12:56 PM
Thanks Dan so what videos are you wanting to see? !!!

Rick

I was just fascinated when you made the first video. You made the hand routing look so easy. :-D You should have seen the butcher job I did when I tried to duplicate it. :roll: A new video is not necessary I'm going to try to find the thread with your clip in it and bump it.

I surrender on the grammar issue. LOL Half the time spell checker don't even recognize what I'm typing without giving it several hints.:eek:

earlyrider
09-24-2012, 07:45 PM
Hi,
My name is Ron, and I have an apostrophy problem. Sometime I feel there is no hope for me, as I live in the land of the 's used for everything. Oh grammer and punctuation, though art a sadistic and confounding object, verb, participle, split infinitive, whatever!!! Is there no release, no exception (other than after c), no gramatical freedom to express ourselves unintelligibly? Out, out dam mark!
Oh! sorry for the senseless ramble.
By the way, regarding the Willys Jeep, trucks and others (no 's!), John North Willys took over the Overland automobile company around 1905, and about ten years later, put his name on a car for the first time. That was the Willys Knight, a product of the Willys-Overland corporation. W-O continued car manufacture until it was bought out by American Motors.