What I learned (so far) about Carved Regions

[robertdpittman]

I have asked a few questions on these forums and I think it is time I provided some information instead of just taking information.

I have been fighting with Carved Regions within Carved Regions and did a couple of days worth of experimenting. I only worked with plain carved regions and will soon experiment with domed regions. I find them more puzzling.

I put together 3 successive exercises that I followed. I have attached the descriptions and the MPC file for your review. Basically, I find carving depths with carved regions within carved regions very hard to predict and control. I needed a better way. I made the inner carved regions into patterns and I found I had a very predictive way of managing carving depths.

This approach is just one approach. I like it because I can now design a project with carved regions and know what it will be like.

Comments are always welcome.

3-13-12 Exercise 2 & 3 were updated.

[DocWheeler]

Bob,

Having fussed with this same thing over the years, I believe it is not that straight forward.
Just to keep you up a little tonight, use the first mpc and move the cursor over the areas.
The rectangle is .25" deep and the circle is .499" deep - close to .5 but no cigar.

Just for fun, change the depth to either .5" or .6" and check the depth of the circle again.
If it works as my test did, you get a depth of .5" for the bottom of the circle, not .75 or .85".

I hope you can nail this down, I am still having problems with it - but it's late.

[robertdpittman]

Ken,

Thanks for looking at this and respnding. I have struggled for a while with carved areas. I think I am getting closer to understanding the behaviors. What you described does not make intuitive sense but is what Designer does. I agree with you that the depth is not exactly .5" deep. It even gets worse with adding another carved region inside. Perhaps I should be more exacting in my wording. I said it would be approxiamately .5" deep. Is there a better wording? This would be a big help for others, too.

The problem I was trying to solve was making the carve deeper than .5 with a predictable result. Using carved regions alone did not seem to work. In example 3, I made the inner carved regions into patterns and I had much more accuracy and was able to control the depth even more. I think I need to expand upon example 3 because to show the tweaks to the depth and the height to get exact depths. The method of using patterns is much easier for me. I also found a fewer mistakes in my "observations" section of exercise 3. I played with this for hours and got burry eyed. Please take a look and provide feedback on exercise 3. I want this to be helpful to people.

Bob

Bob

[DocWheeler]

Bob,

I had no intent in being critical about what you were doing or your wording.
I congradulate you for your interest, egerness to achieve, and your sharing.
My comment was merely to tease the issue since there seems to be no simple answer.

Strange things happen within Designer that baffle me.
Attached is an example (if I can find it) that can not be converted to a pattern because
it will change it for some reason. I think I understand why, but it gets frustrating.

51799
51804

[mtylerfl]

I played with the first example...will look at the others when/if I have time later today.

I frequently like to use the Group function to isolate differing merge styles, etc. from other elements in a layout.

The modified MPC below is a likely way I would do this layout. You can type in new depth values for the inner carve region and they will change accordingly. Keep in mind that there can be some math rounding in some cases. Not sure why that is, but can happen every now and then.

[lawrence]

regions within regions is one of my biggest frustrations-- thanks for taking the time to do this and I look forward to studying it more closely.

Lawrence

[mtylerfl]

I think I can hear Bud playing with the Group and Merge functions right now, preparing to cook up a video tutorial! :)

[robertdpittman]

I hope he does. I bet there are more than a few people trying to figure out how carved regions work.

Bud, feel free to use the attached files. By the way, I will be updating them, tweaking them in the next couple of days.

Ken, I looked at the Thingy.mpc file. It has verticle domed surface applied to the regions. I have experimented with domed carved regions and still find them a mystery. I will keep experimenting.

All, the attached files at the beginning of the thread are for PLAIN CARVED REGIONS. Domed regions work a little differently.

[DocWheeler]

Michael,

Where was it discussed to use groups to correct the issues talked about in this thread?
Was I asleep or didn't I get the memo?

[robertdpittman]

Exercise 2 & 3 pdf file and mpc file were updated to be clearer. If you have the old ones, they may be a bit confusing.

[mtylerfl]

Michael,

Where was it discussed to use groups to correct the issues talked about in this thread?
Was I asleep or didn't I get the memo?

Hi Ken,

In the early versions of Designer, there was a Help File with Tutorials from LHR. One (or two) of the Tutorials showed excellent examples of how Grouping is used for isolating Merge types from other elements. Now, I cannot find that tutorial(s). I need to search some more to see if I can locate the original tutorials. Anyway, that's where I learned the technique many years ago.

EDIT: Check out page 125 of the Designer Software Manual (accessed via the Help Menu in Designer). This single page appears to be an excerpt from the original merge tutorial/technique from earlier versions of Designer. While it is not exhaustive in its instruction, it should provide the basic concept for controlling Merge styles and the benefit of Grouping

[AskBud]

Here are two pages that may help you as stated above.
AskBud
5182251823

[mtylerfl]

Ken,

I modified your "Thingy" MPC to what I THINK you were wanting to achieve. This project really doesn't relate to the discussion on this thread regarding Merge/Group (the Grouping was only necessary, in this case, in order to create a PTN).

I removed the feather on all parts, changed Depth, Inverted the surfaces, then created a PTN. The result is sort of a picture frame - which is what I guessed you wanted. See attached files...

NOTE: When using the actual PTN, you should remove the default Feather. Also, you can enlarge it at will, change the Depth to suit, etc.

[mtylerfl]

Here are two pages that may help you as stated above.
AskBud


Ha! I knew I could hear those gears turning, Bud! Thank you for the additional post regarding this technique.

[DocWheeler]

Thanks Michael and Bud,

The "instructions" (that real men DON'T read) was interesting.
I don't recall reading that, but I do not recall trying to do it that way either.

As for the "Thingy" mpc, I don't want to hyjack the thread,
but making a pattern changes the corners as shown below.

5182651827

[robertdpittman]

OK, here we go. This is a non-domed main carved region with non-overlapping inner regions and patterns - no groups.

Situation 1
Main carved region with 1 or more carved regions or patterns not overlapping nor are contained within each other
If you want the carved regions to have additive or subtractive effect with main region:
Keep main region and inner regions and patterns in same group level
Make main carved region Normal
Make inner regions or patterns

Additive or Subtractive
Inverted
Results:
inner carved region
depth will be added or subtracted from the main carved region.
The depth of the inner regions is hard to predict
Setting depth of inner region does not have an effect on the overall depth

inner pattern
depth will be added or subtracted from the main carved region.
The depth of the inner region will be added or subtracted to the main carved region and is easy to predict
Setting the height will change the depth of the pattern

[robertdpittman]

And now the same exercise using groups.

Situation 2
Main carved region with 1 or more carved regions or patterns not overlapping nor are contained within each other
If you absolute depth control of inner regions and patterns within main region:
Put main carved region in an outer level
Make main carved region Additive
Make inner regions or patterns
Normal
Not Inverted (do not apply inverted)

Place carved regions in a group level subordinate to the main carved region
Place patterns in a group level subordinate to the main carved region. They can be in the same group as the carved regions or a separate group.
The carved region group and the pattern group can be nested.
Results:
inner carved region
depth will absolute from top of the board (some tweaking is needed to get desired depth)
changing the depth of the carved region changes the depth accordingly
If inner carved region is not inverted
changing the depth of the carved region changes the depth accordingly

If inner carved region is inverted
changing the depth of the carved region changes the depth with unpredictable results


inner pattern
depth will be absolute board (some tweaking is needed to get desired depth)
If pattern is not inverted
changing the depth of the pattern changes the depth accordingly
Setting the height has no effect on the pattern

If pattern is inverted
changing the depth and height of the pattern changes the depth accordingly