Dimensions aren't coming out right.

[jeff412]

I have spent all day trying to cut out a project. I have cut this project at least 20 times with no problems. Now it seems to be stretching it. The project is about 24 inches long. After it carves, it is about 24 1/8 " long. It's a problem because I need the drilled holes to line up exactly. I have recalibrated and nothing seems to work. Any ideas?

Jeff

[AskBud]

I have spent all day trying to cut out a project. I have cut this project at least 20 times with no problems. Now it seems to be stretching it. The project is about 24 inches long. After it carves, it is about 24 1/8 " long. It's a problem because I need the drilled holes to line up exactly. I have recalibrated and nothing seems to work. Any ideas?

JeffIt might be helpful if you attached the MPC and a photo of the problem board. show us each item that is out of place (or the wrong size). Give us the dimension of your actual board (or the sled it was on).
Do you still have an O-ring on the Brass roller? How did your answer each prompt? What chuck do you have?
AskBud

[jeff412]

I'll try to post the MPC in the morning. It's on my computer out in the shop. I did have the o-ring on it. I even tried removing the o-ring to see if that worked. It didn't seem to make any difference. If I took pictures of the board you wouldn't be able to see the problem. The 1/8" is spread over the entire board. It's like you took the board and just stretched it. It really seems like the x calibration is off, but it measures the boards correctly. I have the carvetight chuck.

Jeff

[Deolman]

The first question I would ask is what is the head pressure?

[AskBud]

I'll try to post the MPC in the morning. It's on my computer out in the shop. I did have the o-ring on it. I even tried removing the o-ring to see if that worked. It didn't seem to make any difference. If I took pictures of the board you wouldn't be able to see the problem. The 1/8" is spread over the entire board. It's like you took the board and just stretched it. It really seems like the x calibration is off, but it measures the boards correctly. I have the carvetight chuck.

JeffJeff,
How about the dimensions of your actual board, and the Q&A session as you ran the machine?

If things are uniform, it could point to a "Scale to fit" action.
AskBud

[jeff412]

Don't remember the dimensions right now. At least 7" larger than MPC size. Q&A I tried the following

Stay under rollers
Keep original size
Center on board

Stay under rollers
Keep original size
Place on corner

[AskBud]

Don't remember the dimensions right now. At least 7" larger than MPC size. Q&A I tried the following

Stay under rollers
Keep original size
Center on board

Stay under rollers
Keep original size
Place on cornerObviously, the board was wider than the design as well, (you got the Scale question).
Let us know the true size when you attach the MPC.
Have you ran a test of another MPC, just to prove the calibration status? If it runs well it may not be the machine.
AskBud

[jeff412]

I attached the MPC file as requested. The board is 31" long by 8.25". The machine measures the width at 8.285. I was able to adjust it to 8.249. I checked the calibration again tonight and something has gone wonky.( I think that's the technical term) Anyway. It is measuring the 31" board as 30.47" consistantly. The default X setting is 890.430. When I try to adjust it to 873.400, it tells me that the number is out of range.

[AskBud]

I attached the MPC file as requested. The board is 31" long by 8.25". The machine measures the width at 8.285. I was able to adjust it to 8.249. I checked the calibration again tonight and something has gone wonky.( I think that's the technical term) Anyway. It is measuring the 31" board as 30.47" consistantly. The default X setting is 890.430. When I try to adjust it to 873.400, it tells me that the number is out of range.Humor me!
1. How are the 1.125 holes? Are they the correct size and perfectly round?
2. Is your rectangle the correct size?
3. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)? Did you verify the size and location?
4. What kind of wood?
5. Do you use masking tape on the bottom of the board (for the brass roller to gain more traction)?
6. What traction belts do you have?
7. Anything unusual happen prior to this problem?

I would rather know, and do all the above prior to playing with the calibration.
AskBud

[bergerud]

You may have a mechanical problem. If this behavior happened suddenly, it does not seem like a calibration issue. Your x measurement seems to be too far off. I would first make sure a sand paper belt is not rolled over and then I would check the x gear drive for a missing tooth. (It could also be the board tracking sensor but such failures have been rare.)

[jeff412]

1. They appear perfectly round, but I need to measure them to be sure.
2. Again, it appears to be. The rectangle on the front is not positioned correctly. It is off by about 1/4". Again I need to measure its actual size.
3. I did run a small rectangle to measure centering for the Y offset. It was perfectly centered on the Y-axis and off by about 1/16" on the x-axis. Again I didn't measure the size of the rectangle.
4. I have tried this MPC with 3/4" plywood and with 5/8" plywood that is laminated on one side with black formica. I covered the formica with masking tape so the board sensor could see the board.
5. Yes.
6. The HD rubber belts.
7. No.


Humor me!
1. How are the 1.125 holes? Are they the correct size and perfectly round?

2. Is your rectangle the correct size?
3. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)? Did you verify the size and location?
4. What kind of wood?
5. Do you use masking tape on the bottom of the board (for the brass roller to gain more traction)?
6. What traction belts do you have?
7. Anything unusual happen prior to this problem?

I would rather know, and do all the above prior to playing with the calibration.
AskBud

[jeff412]

You may be correct. I thought about it quite a bit last night after I came in from the shop. I wonder if the tracking roller is stuck down and not always pressing against the board. What gives it its springiness? Maybe there is a chunk of wood wedged somewhere. I'll check it out more when I get out to the shop this evening.

Jeff

You may have a mechanical problem. If this behavior happened suddenly, it does not seem like a calibration issue. Your x measurement seems to be too far off. I would first make sure a sand paper belt is not rolled over and then I would check the x gear drive for a missing tooth. (It could also be the board tracking sensor but such failures have been rare.)

[AskBud]

QUOTE http://forum.carvewright.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AskBud http://forum.carvewright.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=173113#post173113)
Humor me!
1. How are the 1.125 holes? Are they the correct size and perfectly round?
Answer: They appear perfectly round, but I need to measure them to be sure.

2. Is your rectangle the correct size?
Answer: Again, it appears to be. The rectangle on the front is not positioned correctly. It is off by about 1/4". Again I need to measure its actual size.

3. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)? Did you verify the size and location?
Answer: I did run a small rectangle to measure centering for the Y offset. It was perfectly centered on the Y-axis and off by about 1/16" on the x-axis. Again I didn't measure the size of the rectangle.

4. What kind of wood?
Answer: I have tried this MPC with 3/4" plywood and with 5/8" plywood that is laminated on one side with black Formica. I covered the Formica with masking tape so the board sensor could see the board.

5. Do you use masking tape on the bottom of the board (for the brass roller to gain more traction)?
Answer: Yes.

6. What traction belts do you have?
Answer: The HD rubber belts.

7. Anything unusual happen prior to this problem?
Answer: No.

I would rather know, and do all the above prior to playing with the calibration.
AskBud



http://forum.carvewright.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bergerud http://forum.carvewright.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=173114#post173114)
You may have a mechanical problem. If this behavior happened suddenly, it does not seem like a calibration issue. Your x measurement seems to be too far off. I would first make sure a sand paper belt is not rolled over and then I would check the x gear drive for a missing tooth. (It could also be the board tracking sensor but such failures have been rare.)

Answer:
You may be correct. I thought about it quite a bit last night after I came in from the shop. I wonder if the tracking roller is stuck down and not always pressing against the board. What gives it its springiness? Maybe there is a chunk of wood wedged somewhere. I'll check it out more when I get out to the shop this evening.
Jeff

END QUOTES

New Reply:
Several of your answers give me red flags. I'm going to address them out of order.

6. Who replaced the traction belts, and were all of the directions for these special belts followed?

Bergerud's reply about a missing gear tooth seems not to apply, as everything is consistently spaced (even if it is out of place). As to the Brass tracking roller, there is normally a damper (Part #99 on page #6 of the parts list) which was under the Brass roller assembly.

4. Your choice of material could be a problem in several ways! Formica clad, or painted surfaces, tend to have laser problems as well as slippage on the traction belts. The same may be true for plywood. All of these can be compounded by the need to exert too much head pressure, throwing off the tracking. Slick material, in contact with the traction belts, could require much more masking tape the length of the board to assist the belts with their job. The only thing that moves the material through the machine is the traction belts. This is where may will use a sled.

3. My aim on the test project was/is simply to check the size and "centering" of one item within the other. This test should be on something other than plywood, poplar or good pine will do. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)?

Lastly:
If you have played with the calibration, at all, you may need to contact LHR to get instructions as to the best method to revert to factory calibration specs (after you have fully considered all of the above).
AskBud

[bergerud]

You may be correct. I thought about it quite a bit last night after I came in from the shop. I wonder if the tracking roller is stuck down and not always pressing against the board. What gives it its springiness? Maybe there is a chunk of wood wedged somewhere. I'll check it out more when I get out to the shop this evening.

Jeff

You may have it there. With the rubber belts, the board may not be contacting the brass roller directly. It may be riding higher on the O ring. Check for those brass roller tracks in the wood. Look parallel to the belts with your eye and see how high the roller is above the plane of the belts.

[jeff412]

QUOTE http://forum.carvewright.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AskBud http://forum.carvewright.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=173113#post173113)
Humor me!
1. How are the 1.125 holes? Are they the correct size and perfectly round?
Answer: They appear perfectly round, but I need to measure them to be sure.

2. Is your rectangle the correct size?
Answer: Again, it appears to be. The rectangle on the front is not positioned correctly. It is off by about 1/4". Again I need to measure its actual size.

3. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)? Did you verify the size and location?
Answer: I did run a small rectangle to measure centering for the Y offset. It was perfectly centered on the Y-axis and off by about 1/16" on the x-axis. Again I didn't measure the size of the rectangle.

4. What kind of wood?
Answer: I have tried this MPC with 3/4" plywood and with 5/8" plywood that is laminated on one side with black Formica. I covered the Formica with masking tape so the board sensor could see the board.

5. Do you use masking tape on the bottom of the board (for the brass roller to gain more traction)?
Answer: Yes.

6. What traction belts do you have?
Answer: The HD rubber belts.

7. Anything unusual happen prior to this problem?
Answer: No.

I would rather know, and do all the above prior to playing with the calibration.
AskBud


http://forum.carvewright.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bergerud http://forum.carvewright.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=173114#post173114)
You may have a mechanical problem. If this behavior happened suddenly, it does not seem like a calibration issue. Your x measurement seems to be too far off. I would first make sure a sand paper belt is not rolled over and then I would check the x gear drive for a missing tooth. (It could also be the board tracking sensor but such failures have been rare.)

Answer:
You may be correct. I thought about it quite a bit last night after I came in from the shop. I wonder if the tracking roller is stuck down and not always pressing against the board. What gives it its springiness? Maybe there is a chunk of wood wedged somewhere. I'll check it out more when I get out to the shop this evening.
Jeff

END QUOTES

New Reply:
Several of your answers give me red flags. I'm going to address them out of order.

6. Who replaced the traction belts, and were all of the directions for these special belts followed?

Bergerud's reply about a missing gear tooth seems not to apply, as everything is consistently spaced (even if it is out of place). As to the Brass tracking roller, there is normally a damper (Part #99 on page #6 of the parts list) which was under the Brass roller assembly.

4. Your choice of material could be a problem in several ways! Formica clad, or painted surfaces, tend to have laser problems as well as slippage on the traction belts. The same may be true for plywood. All of these can be compounded by the need to exert too much head pressure, throwing off the tracking. Slick material, in contact with the traction belts, could require much more masking tape the length of the board to assist the belts with their job. The only thing that moves the material through the machine is the traction belts. This is where may will use a sled.

3. My aim on the test project was/is simply to check the size and "centering" of one item within the other. This test should be on something other than plywood, poplar or good pine will do. Have you ran a different MPC (test) on another board (like a rectangle with one drill hole), both centered on the design board)?

Lastly:
If you have played with the calibration, at all, you may need to contact LHR to get instructions as to the best method to revert to factory calibration specs (after you have fully considered all of the above).
AskBud










6. LHR replaced them.

4. I've cut this project many times on this formica laminated plywood without any problems. I completely cover the formica with masking tape to eliminate the slippage problems.

3. I just picked up some oak and magnolia today. I'll try it on one of those tonight.

Lastly:

I have played with the calibration a lot. I'm actually considering taking it to LHR tomorrow and see if they can get it to work.

Jeff

[bergerud]

If LHR installed the rubber belts, then the calibration defaults would, if changed, have been reset. (I think, but check!) If so, you can simply return to the defaults, all you have messed with will be reversed.

[jeff412]

I did call them and they told me that by pressing reset cals that it would be restored to factory. They also said the the o-ring for the hd belts was the same as the o-ring for the sandpaper ones. I thought I had read somewhere that they were different. Anyone know?

Jeff



If LHR installed the rubber belts, then the calibration defaults would, if changed, have been reset. (I think, but check!) If so, you can simply return to the defaults, all you have messed with will be reversed.

[AskBud]

I did call them and they told me that by pressing reset cals that it would be restored to factory. They also said the the o-ring for the hd belts was the same as the o-ring for the sandpaper ones. I thought I had read somewhere that they were different. Anyone know?

JeffThere are two brass roller assemblies. Each on works well, however they each take a different O-ring.51686AskBud

[jeff412]

Didn't realize that. Mine is the one on the right. What size does it use? Maybe I bought the wrong ones.

[chebytrk]

Don't forget that at the last conference we were told that the "O" ring is not absolutely necessary.

[dbfletcher]

Didn't realize that. Mine is the one on the right. What size does it use? Maybe I bought the wrong ones.

Check this thread.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18042-Missing-O-ring-and-damage-help-please&p=152025#post152025

[jeff412]

Don't forget that at the last conference we were told that the "O" ring is not absolutely necessary.

When I got my machine, it didn't have an o-ring installed. I added it later when I was having tracking problems. I took it off this time and it didn't help, so I put another one on.

Jeff

[jeff412]

Thanks. I'll check that when I get home. I think I got mine at Home Depot, so maybe I have the wrong one. It fits very tight, so I can't imagine that it's slipping.

Jeff


Check this thread.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18042-Missing-O-ring-and-damage-help-please&p=152025#post152025

[bergerud]

The problem would not be that the O ring was slipping but that it is not compressing enough. If the board does not ride on the brass, the roller will have an effectively larger diameter. The roller will make fewer revolutions and the machine will think the board is shorter than it is. (To test whether this is happening or not, measure your board with and without the O ring.)

[AskBud]

Thanks. I'll check that when I get home. I think I got mine at Home Depot, so maybe I have the wrong one. It fits very tight, so I can't imagine that it's slipping.

JeffEach take a different size O-ring.
QUOTE:
Original sensor O-ring size is: 5/16" ID X 7/16" OD (got mine at Home Depot plumbing Dept.)

New sensor O-ring size is: 1/4" ID x 3/8" OD (got mine from www.McMaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com/) Part Number: 9557K462 $4.39 for 100 of 'em!)
(Actual Inside Diameter is 0.239"...Actual Outside Diameter is 0.379")
ASkBud51689

[jeff412]

The problem would not be that the O ring was slipping but that it is not compressing enough. If the board does not ride on the brass, the roller will have an effectively larger diameter. The roller will make fewer revolutions and the machine will think the board is shorter than it is. (To test whether this is happening or not, measure your board with and without the O ring.)

This problem is new. I've had the o-ring on there for at least a couple of years, so I don't think that is the problem.

Jeff

[bergerud]

The board riding high on the O ring could still be the problem if the force pushing the roller into the board has changed from, like you said, a piece of wood jammed in or if the "board tracking sensor damper spring (99)" has fallen out. Check for those characteristic roller track marks on the board.

[liquidguitars]

I find if the unit x is out of range you could have a issue with the belts rubbing the brass AUX roller, a quick fix it to cut .50" off the belt on the in-feed side regardless if they are rubber or not.

as a mater of fact i just did this yesterday. also check that the infeed rollers are clean and the sensors relesse quickly :)

[Digitalwoodshop]

LG is correct.... A rolled under belt is hard to see... And it raises the board up off the brass roller and gives you all kinds of problems.... Here are pictures of where I keep cutting off strips of the sand paper belts as I run 6 inch wide boards and this causes the belt to wear on the keypad side and get bigger. It makes the belt walk to the brass roller..... I rip the belt with the power off, turning the belts by hand.

AL

[jeff412]

I took the day off, drove to Houston and took it in to LHR. I asked them to calibrate it for me. They had the same problems that I did. They weren't able to get it to calibrate. They even changed the tracking roller sensor. They said they were going to need it longer to figure it out. I'll let you guys know what they find.

Jeff

[jeff412]

I find if the unit x is out of range you could have a issue with the belts rubbing the brass AUX roller, a quick fix it to cut .50" off the belt on the in-feed side regardless if they are rubber or not.

as a mater of fact i just did this yesterday. also check that the infeed rollers are clean and the sensors relesse quickly :)

It doesn't appear to be rolled.

Jeff

[AskBud]

I took the day off, drove to Houston and took it in to LHR. I asked them to calibrate it for me. They had the same problems that I did. They weren't able to get it to calibrate. They even changed the tracking roller sensor. They said they were going to need it longer to figure it out. I'll let you guys know what they find.

JeffLet's all wait to see what they report.
AskBud

[jeff412]

Hopefully it won't take too long. I got several orders and I'm stuck until I get it back.

Jeff

[Digitalwoodshop]

My suggestion.... CUT the belt.... Just the one under the muffler... It is VERY hard to see a rolled up belt.... You really don't have anything to loose.... Could make the difference between getting the orders out....


I turn off the power so I can push the belt backward. I cut the belt between the metal roller and the tray. Then pull and push.

AL

[jeff412]

I thought the HD belts were guaranteed not to roll up.

Jeff

[lynnfrwd]

Let's all wait to see what they report.
AskBud

For some unknown reason, his default setting was WAY too low; lower than we could adjust to get within proper specs. So, we had to go in with firmware and reset the default higher, which would then allow us to make the necessary adjusts to get it to read within specs. We also had to change the board tracking sensor. We then re-calibrated it and ran tests. It is now being QA'd and we are running a multi-point inspection on it.

[jeff412]

The strange thing is that when I took it in, the default setting was 890.430 and not 860.??? as you reported. I worked with it for several hours trying to get it calibrated, so I'm certain of this number. I went back to it several times. The tracking roller was also changed. Hopefully that was the problem and I won't have any more issues.

[Digitalwoodshop]

That is GREAT NEWS... We all learned from this....

AL

[jeff412]

Finally got the machine back today. The first thing I did was put a 31" board in and measured it. It measured 30.8" Ugh! I then tried a 27 9/16" board and it measured 27.4". I got frustrated and just walked out of the shop. I don't know what to do.

Jeff

[jeff412]

I finally got my blood pressure back down and decided to go back out there tonight and fiddle with it some more. Turns out that it had lost the calibration and gone back to default. I recalibrated it and now it seems to be measuring boards correctly. Hopefully it will stick this time. Right now I'm carving the project that I posted earlier. Hopefully it turns out correct.

Jeff

[bergerud]

So what was the final conclusion? Was is the board tracking sensor or was it the default setting which was the problem?

[jeff412]

It had to be the board tracking sensor. I didn't have a problem with the default setting at home, it was 890.430 and never changed. When I was trying to calibrate it at home I could not go below 874.1 and I needed to. You didn't get the full story about what happened at LHR. When I took it in someone there calibrated and changed the tracking sensor, then went home for the day. Since I was waiting around Houston for it to be done, John tested it for me and found that it wasn't measuring correctly again. This is when he discovered the default setting to be incorrect. He then told me that he would have to wait for the other guy to come in the next day to talk to him. I don't know what was done after that. John did tell me that he set the calibration to 88?.???, not sure what he said. When I finally checked it, the current calibration was back to 890.430. Somehow it lost it's new setting in transit from Houston. I cut the project last night and it came out perfect.

Jeff

[bergerud]

I guess failing tracking sensors are not so rare. Thanks for the follow up.