DXF Importer, why not a toolpath importer or even better, gcode and or scripting?

[FelixPQ]

The DXF importer is an ok add-on but it would much more useful is was capable of importing "toolpath". By this I mean the real 3D toolpath geometry and with that, the bit info needed to machine the board. No need for any manual input in designer to set anything, either drilling, select bit and depth params, cut path or what have you.

Designer is well though of and simple enough to use for carving but anything else other then relatively simple machining, it's pretty limited to say the least and we have to resort to all sorts of skeems to get it to machine what we want. I can think of many standard machining operations, like drilling a hole pattern, either circular, polygonal, array, along a path or whatever that are pretty easy to create in a cad (cam) program but all this work is basically lost because the drilling features of designer can't figure out the imported geometry and can't even snap to the center of these circles. Yes, it's fairly easy to reproduce our work manually in designer when the machining require just a few holes but it becomes a nightmare pretty fast as the number of holes increase. Operation like dados, stop dados, pockects and many others can be done manually in designer but the same reasoning apply here as well for simple things it's ok but as complexity increase it become exponentialy time consuming and frustrating especially when you know it can be done pretty easily in other CAD/CAM packages even free ones.

Basically what I would like is a mean to create all other types of machining operation as easily and simply as it is with carving stuff.

In case some of you mention it, yes I know about ai2mpc and it can simplify our life a little bit but it's still pretty far from what I would like. You can add to that, either AI2MPC or designer itself offset the geometry you created by a small amount, on recent Windows hardware and software it's basically impossible to create the AI files AI2MPC requires other then manually unless of course you are willing to pay about $500 or more for the latest Illustrator package and still CS5.1 saved to version 8 with attributes set don't work. This is not a real solution IMHO, it's more a kind of akward workaround solution if not a total waste of time and money.

Thanks,
Felix

[SteveEJ]

So, what you are asking for is the software features that come in very powerful CAD/CAM packages that cost thousands of dollars in a machine that combined with it's software is 999. Remember, this is a hobby machine that a lot of people use to make some money.

Now, with that being said, I own VCarve Pro and Corel and have no problems doing anything I want based on the machines limitations. You must remember that the machine matches feed rates and spindle speeds based on the bit selected. The CW has a limited number of bits in it's database. This is probably the reason it doesn't allow depth/bit assignments in the DXF importer.

I think if you are willing to vectorize a lot of your functions, as mentioned above, you will be able to accomplish a lot of what you want to do. I don't understand the multiple hole issues you stated before. I can see how they can be easily assigned by multiple selections and then assigning the bit, depth and max depth per pass. Lay the diameters out in a external program, import with the DXF importer, select all the hole toolpaths, assign the bit, depth, max depth per pass, tell it to stay inside the lime boundary and cut it!

Am I missing something here?

[mtylerfl]

Hi Felix,

I certainly understand what you are saying. There is room for improvement, as you mentioned. There are several tasks that Designer handles very elegantly, and some not so much...at least for now. I do use the DXF Importer a lot, and it helps a great deal when I am laying out certain types of projects. I often draw extra vectors to be used only as guides, such as crosshairs within circles that aid me in positioning the Drill Tool "on target" in Designer, or drawing closely-spaced vectors for manually assigning a straight bit for dados or pockets, etc. Yes, some of these tasks can lead to a bit of effort on your/our part at times. I encourage you to contact CarveWright directly with some of your ideas so they can consider adding/improving features in future updates to the Designer software. I know they appreciate feedback from users and consider everything presented (this doesn't mean they are able to implement every suggestion, of course).

Steve mentioned that the machine is a "hobby machine". I have a slightly different take on that...I don't call the CarveWright a hobby machine anymore because I think it can give the wrong impression, and/or somehow diminish it's true capabilities in the minds of folks who haven't used one themselves. For many years, I too called it a "hobby machine", but now I prefer to call it a small-format CNC machine (because that's what it is). My personal opinion is there is simply nothing else on the market at this price point that can do what the CarveWright machine is capable of. I truly believe, all things considered, it is hands-down the best value for a small-format CNC.

I think you'll also agree it is a great value, even though we do have to figure out some creative layout techniques sometimes! Please do feel free to notify CarveWright with any ideas you can offer to help them make a great value even better for the future.

[SteveEJ]

Please do not consider me calling it a 'Hobby' machine as disrespectful. I called it because of it's durability and speed in comparison to heavier duty CNC machines that are built for continuous production. The CW is exactly as Michael stated and I agree with him. It cannot do 4 X 4 or 4 X 8 solid sheet work. Some of it's parts could be made more sturdy BUT I love my CW. For the price it cannot be beat.

The other part of the machine is the software. LHR invests in it as well and it is part of the overall cost. I don't mind using several tools, of my choosing, to accomplish what I need it to do. VCarve Pro is excellent for vectors. Aspire is excellent for just about everything (wish I could afford it). There are many tools to do these things. Part of the problem though is the lack of ability for us to define bit profiles and other data into a bit database, setting our own feed rates and spindle speeds. Having this capability would solve several issues that folks have. Having a DXF file with tool paths for tools that are not defined is an issue.

The CW is the best there is in it's price range and footprint! COuld the software be better? Yup. There are work arounds too.. Keeps me thinking! :roll:

[FelixPQ]

Hi Felix,

I certainly understand what you are saying. There is room for improvement, as you mentioned. There are several tasks that Designer handles very elegantly, and some not so much...at least for now. I do use the DXF Importer a lot, and it helps a great deal when I am laying out certain types of projects. I often draw extra vectors to be used only as guides, such as crosshairs within circles that aid me in positioning the Drill Tool "on target" in Designer, or drawing closely-spaced vectors for manually assigning a straight bit for dados or pockets, etc. Yes, some of these tasks can lead to a bit of effort on your/our part at times. I encourage you to contact CarveWright directly with some of your ideas so they can consider adding/improving features in future updates to the Designer software. I know they appreciate feedback from users and consider everything presented (this doesn't mean they are able to implement every suggestion, of course)..

I totally agree with you, especially this here "There are several tasks that Designer handles very elegantly". I couldn't have said it better myself. As for "the Drill Tool on target" I must have mist that, because every time I use the drill tool, I don't see any visual clue whatsoever of where the center of the hole will be exactly and I always end up having to move it around afterward but I'll check that out.

I must admit I've been spoiled, I have an excellent 3D nurbs program called Moi3D and on it's forum, the designer of the program is answering questions within minutes most of the time. Amoung other things, Moi export to AI natively and can convert 3D nurbs curves to 3D DXF with a free utility, mostly splines which are unfortunatly unsusable with DXF importer. It reads them but output garbage, so I have to convert every thing to simpler element which DXF importer can interpret correctly and that's a shame, especially at $200 and not mentioning the time wasted. I almost forgot, AI2MPC can be very useful for many things, but it as a little problem, a small if not tiny but undesirable offset of all the vectors it produce.

If we take the part I've design below for example, I could make a pattern out of it and be ready to machine it in a few minutes at most. That's great and with this particular part the result would probably be acceptable. Though about 80% of the machining would be in pure waste, no material to remove on the top surface. But if I wanted to machine this part effectively and accurately it would be quite another story and very time consuming and of course I'm thinking only of the available tools with the CW system (add-ons included). It would take just about the same time to produce efficient gcode to machine the part directly from the 3D design I've made in most CAD/CAM programs I can think of. Of course one can do it with designer but in a few minutes, I don't think so, hours are more likely.

Ideally IMHO, LHR could provide, on the cheap beside that, a port that would allow us to control every thing directly via an external controler like Mach3 for example. No need for any improvement of designer and or in-house add-ons. They are plenty of Cad/Cam program out there, even free ones that could be use to create both the geometry and the gcode to machine basically anything within the physical limits of the machine on can think of. Just as fast and elegantly as the CW system does carving stuff but for everything else as well. Another possibility would be an integrated gcode interpreter but I believe this would require a lot of work and possibly changes to their controler.

Thanks,
Felix

[FelixPQ]

Oops!

I just tried to make a small gardening toolbox project in my favorite 3D program of course and tried the AI2MPC route. Starting from nothing to ready for carving it took me about 1/2 hour and I must say I'm very happy with that. The project involve making dado, stop dado, rabbet and half way through holes and cutting parts to size of course. Almost nothing to do in designer except for setting up machining operation.


In other words, I waste money on the dxf importer but that's nobodies fault except mine. In conclusion, the CW system is excellent at carving patterns (3D machining), using AI2MPC it's also pretty easy to do 2.5D machining, (ie. machining region at constant depth based on 2D geometry created outside designer in my case) I guess it merit relatively good marks as well for VCarving type of machining and possibly for text type machining as well (I didn't try that yet).

For any other type of effective 3D machining other then "raster carving" it would need a lot of vitamins to say the least, possibly even steroids. But one may easily say that it's a pretty good system overall.

I have no personnal interest in Moi3D other then I like it very much but at only $295 you wouldn't need either Corel or Illustration and I don't see the need either for other program like VCarve that's been mentioned here. Did I mention Moi also export STL files.

Regards,
Felix

[SteveEJ]

Felix,
I used AI2MPC for a good while and was happy with it. For the DXF importer, the biggest reason I bought it was that I could split a large vcarve over several boards width wise. Very wide products are possible. I did this with a Mayan calendar across 2 14 inch wide boards. I didn't attempt this with AI2MPC and am not sure if it could be done easily. I'm like the fact that it is part of Designer and the fact that it was on sale at the time.

[FelixPQ]

Steve,

as usual with external software especially ones that work with quasi obsolete file format one as to find the right combination of package and all this conversion thing can become tedious and expensive. Fortunatly for me, the program I use create AI files compatible with AI2MPC. I notice as well that AI2MPC seems to generate a fix "board" size and sometimes part or even all of the geometry is outside the board in designer but it's all there.

As for the DXF output my program creates is not compatible with the DXF importer but I have another that can read the output of the first and convert it to something usable with the DXF importer. Basically, I have 2 possible workflows and when I'll see with usage if one is better.

Thanks,
Felix