Rotary Jig Prototype II

[bergerud]

For anyone who is interested, I am still working on my concept of a rotary jig. I have built a second prototype which has some improvements. I first one is that the measurement procedure is now simpler. The jig is in the rear position for the dowel measurement and is pulled forward after the natural pause to install the bit. This required a major change in the design of the axle slides to include a slot for the bit "bob". Also, a lever was added to release the pressure on the dowel so that initial setup adjustments (rotate dowel, slide driver board, adjust height) are easier to make before and after the jig is clamped down in the machine.

[bergerud]

As my first test of the jig I thought I would make a dowel out of a 2 by 2 sawed into an octagonal cross section. I used a hole saw to round the end to 2" used the 3/8" jointing bit to plane with 1/4" wide passes. As you can see, it can be done. It took a boring hour to do. I do not think that one even has to do this. A driver wheel and a rough sawn (8 or 16 sided) dowel could just be carved without having to make it round.

[Sallen1215]

Dan, this looks amazing and i am in aw of your engineering talent. Great to see such great minds out here pushing the machine to its potential. Also not to take anything away from Ed Baker it is wonderful that the idea was conceived and can only excel from there.


Stephen

[gregsolano]

So it looks like with your prototype there are choices as to dowel sizes? What is the largest that it can carve?

[bergerud]

Thanks Sallen.

I have not tried yet, but it should do 4.5" diameter. Maybe more if it was really important and the jig is stripped down.

[SteveEJ]

What would be the smallest? Thinking Pens.

[bergerud]

I never thought of pens. It must be possible. I was designing only down to an inch. You could use a drive wheel of an inch and carve down to the smaller diameter pen. The pattern would have to be stretched out on the "board", but that would be a good thing: fine precision. Maybe a good use for Jeff Birt's 1/32" carving bit. Interesting.

[lawrence]

man, the leaps and bounds with which this forum takes things is impressive indeed... great job and I look forward to seeing more.

One of these days I'm going to have to get round to making/buying a jig for myself ;) (pun intended)

Lawrence

[SteveEJ]

PennStateInd.com had mandrels. You think one could be adapted?

[kool69sporty]

Dan, how does the dust cup work with the round stock? Is chip buildup a problem? Joe

[bergerud]

The dust cap seems to work fine with the rotary jig. A little more gets away because of the extra space. A longer brush would help that.

Steve; I do not know anything about pen mandrels. I am sure a pen holder could be made.

[gregsolano]

I never say you guys can't do it because you never cease to amaze me, but, anyone who has turned pens can tell you the final thickness of a turned pen is very thin, probably less than 1/32. Cigar pens are thicker and would be easier to try, I wonder if the CW would cause blow out. That is when you are turning a pen and the piece will shatter or break apart while turning.

[SteveEJ]

I turn a lot of different types of pens. Blowout is usually attributed to poor gluing of material to the brass tubes. When I spiral mill my pens I always use epoxy and make sure there are no gaps or air pockets between the pens and the tubes. If I do that a 2hp router turning a .5 inch router bit at 18000 rpm is not a problem. With the CW's linear motion and very small bites of the carving bit it should not be a problem provided the stock is turned round and larger than the highest area to be carved. The pattern to be cut and how to lay that out is going to be the interesting challenge.

[mwhatch]

I recently started turning pens, and coincidentaly, recently buillt a rotary axis for my small desktop cnc, inspired by the first rotary jig. I have machined a couple of pen barrells with engravings. I take them to withing about .050 ", then finish on the lathe. I have done v-carving for inlays and relief carvings. You just have to choose your models carefully because they are so small.

[gregsolano]

Morton, do you have any pics? Be great to see them.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Excellent Jig.. And Dust collection...

AL

[mwhatch]

I do have a couple of pictures of what I am trying to do.
The DAD was carved with a 60 degree v-bit and inlayed with turquoise inlace.
Next, the dots, used a 1/8 end mill to drill shallow holes and also used turquoise inlace.
The double hearts was carved with a 1/16 tapered bit, just like the cw bit.
The stars and moons were cut with a 60 degree v-bit, aboout .050 deep. Filled with acrylic paint.
The DAD and double heart could be used on a larger body pen such as Wall St.II, Gatsby, Sierra.
The other two would work on a any pen with a 7mm tube, Slimline, Comfort, etc.
CA finish applied to all of them.
These were all cut on my desktop CNC rotary, then finished on lathe.
I am currently working on a way to use the CW with a sled, to carve on a rough cut barrell, then finish on the lathe.
They are all just over 2" long and .30 to .60 inch diameter.

[gregsolano]

Nice work Morton.

[bergerud]

I know that it has been mentioned by myself and others that a driving wheel can be used on the end(s) of the dowel in a rotary jig. I know others have done it. There have been, however, no reports or pictures.

The driving wheel is a good idea for a few reasons. It provides a consistent, known circumference, which reduces the trial and error of determining the project length in Designer. It allows for the mounting of non-dowel wood. One can use the wheels to make dowels or just to carve on rough cut wood. (On my jig, it is also used to as an accurate place to touch down the bit.)

In the pictures, you can see I cut a piece of walnut into an octagonal cylinder, mounted it, and carved my twisted square column without having to make it into a dowel first.

(In case you wonder why I would carve this, it is part of a calculus demo to show that the volume of solids depends only on cross sections and not on things like twist.)

[LittleRedWoodshop]

Very nice ... keep up the good work.

[James RS]

bergerud are you planning on selling plans or a complete jig?

[bergerud]

bergerud are you planning on selling plans or a complete jig?

I am not planning on selling jigs. What I do with it will depend how the bugs work out and what I think after having used it for awhile. I am, however, trying to design the jig to be made as much as possible by the machine so that it could be made into a project.

[Digitalwoodshop]

WOW.... That is a GREAT Project....

Nice Work.....


AL

[fwharris]

I am not planning on selling jigs. What I do with it will depend how the bugs work out and what I think after having used it for awhile. I am, however, trying to design the jig to be made as much as possible by the machine so that it could be made into a project.

Well we are just waiting in the background while you get them bugs worked out. This would make a great project for the store I am sure..

[b.sumner47]

We,re not breathing down your neck yet, just kidding !! Thanks in advance for what you are trying to do for us all.


Capt Barry

[James RS]

I am not planning on selling jigs. What I do with it will depend how the bugs work out and what I think after having used it for awhile. I am, however, trying to design the jig to be made as much as possible by the machine so that it could be made into a project.
Now that would be a great project!

[LittleRedWoodshop]

I completely agree ... would love to make this jig. I have plans for projects that require larger than 2 inch dia. material.

[ladjr]

I agree. That would be a great project. I can't wait.

Vegas

[Ropdoc]

How is it going so far? Does it look like it may be a project or at least instructions to download so we can build one? Just asking.

[bergerud]

I have not played with the jig for awhile. I do have some ideas for improvements but no time now. Even though all of the wooden parts are made by the Carvewright, there are other metal parts like springs and bearings. If anyone is interested in building or improving my last prototype, I will happily post the mpcs. Be warned, however, it is no where near a bug free project yet.

[James RS]

I have not played with the jig for awhile. I do have some ideas for improvements but no time now. Even though all of the wooden parts are made by the Carvewright, there are other metal parts like springs and bearings. If anyone is interested in building or improving my last prototype, I will happily post the mpcs. Be warned, however, it is no where near a bug free project yet.

I definitely would like to give it a go, please do post them

Thanks

[b.sumner47]

Please post the mpc if you can.


Capt Barry

[bergerud]

I will give the files a once over and then post them this weekend.

[b.sumner47]

Thanks much.


Capt Barry

[ladjr]

Thanks I would love to look at it.

[bergerud]

Here are 8 of 12 mpc files for the rotary jig.

[bergerud]

Here are the last 4.

It has been awhile now and I forget some of the changes I was going to make. There was one problem with the right hand bearing support (axle plate). It was made of 1/4" thick oak and housed a bearing. The 1/4" was too thick and put the edge of the dowel too far from the bit clearance slot in the slider. In the case where the carve depth exceeds 1/2", the machine bobs the bit into the clearance slot looking for the Carvewright's sliding plate and scrapes on the back of the axle plate. The axle plate needs to be thinner. I was going to make a brass plate with just a protruding shaft and put the bearing in the end of the dowel.

I am sure there will be other improvements to be made. It is a challenging project . There are no instructions, just these files to play with!

[ladjr]

Thanks very much for the MPC files. I have look at your earlier pictures, are the any pictures I could use to help assemble the jig.
Thanks again,

[gumbo]

This looks wonderful but I am a liitle lost. What or how is the material turning I can't seem to figure this out?

[bergerud]

This looks wonderful but I am a liitle lost. What or how is the material turning I can't seem to figure this out?

The jig is held in the machine above the sandpaper belts. A rail with sandpaper on top in the left of the jig (see the first picture) is compressed between the dowel and the sandpaper belt by a spring. Besides driving the dowel, the rail rolls the brass tracking sensor and also actuates the rear roller lifter.

I am sorry that I have not provided a more detailed explaination of how it all works but these are just my lastest prototype parts. I am providing these files for those few members who have followed and want to experiment with the rotary jig idea. The jig at this stage is by no means a finished "project" for all to build.

[b.sumner47]

I just got a chance to follow up on the "Rotary Jig Prototype II, beautiful Job ! I hope soon, to get started and will contiue to monitor.


Capt Barry

[cestout]

I was thinking about the too thick right hand plate. Could you design the project with that area included as a non carved area? That way the truck would move further over and miss the plate.Clint

[bergerud]

I was thinking about the too thick right hand plate. Could you design the project with that area included as a non carved area? That way the truck would move further over and miss the plate.Clint

The problem occurs during the initial measurement routine. The machine finds where the right edge of the dowel is and then (if the carve is to be more that 1/2" deep) bobs right beside the edge before bobbing for the sliding plate. There simply needs to be some more clearance for the bit to bob. A grove in the back of the right hand plate may even be good enough. I do not think it is too serious a problem, I just remember that it was a problem.

[bergerud]

For those who would like to see how the Prototype II setup routine works, I have made a video. I thought I shoud do a simple carving just to remember how it works since there is a member making the jig and I want to be able to answer questions! I have not actually used the jig much. The exercise was really just to make it. Third try is the charm and someday, I will make prototype III. Also I have included the mpc for anyone who makes the jig as a first thing to carve. It is shallow carve on a 2 inch diameter dowel, 6 inches long. (Play around with invert to get different patterns.) (Note the dust missed by the dust cap in the second picture. Yuck.)

Edit: sorry the video is a little shaky, I needed three hands to video and operate the jig.

http://youtu.be/pM9y-4Cbzoo

[Underdog]

Has anyone else actually built this from the files posted here?

[bergerud]

Russel is making one. He has been posting in Rotary Jigs Projects.

[Underdog]

Yeah, I just saw that. Thanks for making this available. I'd like to try it sometime...

[Russel]

Dan,
I haven't said much on this topic recently, since I am awaiting delivery of the bearings. I have installed the jig into the CV and learned what various operations are performed. However, I need clarification on several operating points, so I will be prepared when the jig is ready to roll. I need to know:
1) During the initial measurements, when the CV asks "stay under rollers?", I assume the answer is no.
2) Is the "jog to surface" option used?
3) When measuring board length, what is considered the start of board?
4) When the tape is placed on the dowel, I can understand that it will be construed as an edge, but why doesn't the tape width reduce the dowel circumference measurement, by seeing one edge as a start and the other as an end?
5)On the youtube video, I was unable to see the selections made during the setup. Can you list the selections made and manual operations to get to the point of initiating the carving process? Sorry if I keep asking the same questions.

[James RS]

Hello,
I watched your video and see that yours setups totally different than the original.


Russel is making one. He has been posting in Rotary Jigs Projects.

[bergerud]

Dan,
I haven't said much on this topic recently, since I am awaiting delivery of the bearings. I have installed the jig into the CV and learned what various operations are performed. However, I need clarification on several operating points, so I will be prepared when the jig is ready to roll. I need to know:
1) During the initial measurements, when the CV asks "stay under rollers?", I assume the answer is no.
2) Is the "jog to surface" option used?
3) When measuring board length, what is considered the start of board?
4) When the tape is placed on the dowel, I can understand that it will be construed as an edge, but why doesn't the tape width reduce the dowel circumference measurement, by seeing one edge as a start and the other as an end?
5)On the youtube video, I was unable to see the selections made during the setup. Can you list the selections made and manual operations to get to the point of initiating the carving process? Sorry if I keep asking the same questions.




Stay under rollers - No (minimizes length measured. Related to 4 below)
No (the touch automatically goes to the dowel )
The black tape it the start of the board!
The operation only measures one end. Place on Corner (or End if the width happens to agree) does not require finding the front end of the board. The dowel will roll just enough to determine that the project board will fit.
I thought, if you looked closely you could see. Stay under rollers - No : Keep Orig. size - Yes : How to place on board - 3) place on end (or corner) : cut to size - No.


What is important and is not shown is the initial position of the rail. I marked my rail as to when the roller lifter drops. I position the rail so that as soon as it moves, the roller drops. The CW thinks the end of the board just left the back roller and then the tape rolls up to the sensor and the CW thinks it has detected the end of the board.

[bergerud]

Hello,
I watched your video and see that yours setups totally different than the original.

That was the exercise! Make a jig that stays in the machine and directly measures the dowel as well as being adjustable for many dowel sizes.

[bergerud]

I do not know of anyone who has made this prototype and had it working yet. I know Russel, Clint, and some others have been working on it. It does work quite well but it is a fairly complicated design and this is mainly to do with "tricking" the machine into thinking it is measuring a board when it is measuring the dowel. (To me, that was the main challenge.)

Changes in the firmware may be coming soon which will make a simpler design possible. If you have not already started this project, I would now recommend against building it. I do not want you to waste your time on a Mark 1 experiment when a simpler Mark 2 may be just around the corner.

[papawbummie]

Hello What changes in firmware(will it be a diferent jig) or something that they will add to Carvewright Machine? Thanks Bert

[bergerud]

Hello What changes in firmware(will it be a diferent jig) or something that they will add to Carvewright Machine? Thanks Bert

I cannot say. There are planned changes in the firmware which could make a simpler and more versatile jig possible. We may, for example, be able to key in the dowel dimensions instead of having to measure them. Different jig and sled designs may be possible. Sorry, but I really have no details.

I have heard that changes are coming and, for those who plan on keeping up with the current software, it would probably be better to wait a month or two before designing or building rotary jigs and fancy sleds.

[papawbummie]

Thanks for the info Bert

[cestout]

To rationalize my situation, I can't afford the $200 to upgrade the software and the Prototype II is not that expensive to build. However, that change in the soft ware might make the investment more appealing. Like the 2D and 3D add-ons were needed.

[srfliny]

Won't let me download the mpc files.... weird...

[srfliny]

Wouldn't a rubber wheel work for driving or turning the stock in the jig instead or the sliding board with the sandpaper on top of it?

[bergerud]

The sliding board does a few things. It rides on the sandpaper, turns the dowel, rolls the brass roller, and actuates the roller lifter.

[Dan-Woodman]

and does it compensate for the 3.5 in. on each end of the board? I've never seen one but have wondered how they compensate for that.

[bergerud]

In my jig, the rail is not under the rollers. The main body of the jig is. The rear roller is only tricked into thinking the "board" has let it drop when the roller lifter drops.