I don't get it.

[boogalee]

I attempted to carve a project and as usual it did not come out right.

In designer I set the board length @ 16", the width @ 9". The actual board to be carved is 6" wide by 8" long. I used a sled.

When carving, I told the machine not to stay under the rollers and to center on length.

I have attached a picture of the finished project (and my carved up sled). I dont understand why this happened. Also i have included a link to the mpc file.

Thanks
Al


49185

[Ike]

If you are using a sled you need to say yes for rollers? When using the rollers you need 3.5" longer on both sides for a total of 7" If you want to carve a board 8" long then the sled needs to be 15" and say yes to the rollers. Myself I don't use the rollers and if I designed a project or sign 6" by 8" I load a 6" by 8" board and say no to rollers and no problems. With your sled it needs to be an inch shorter and use the rollers.

Ike

[Ike]

I see in the design the board is 9" by 16" so the problem is you need to say yes to using the rollers. Or just design the actual size you want and load that same size board and say no to rollers.

Ike

[Digitalwoodshop]

Ike is Correct, you could do it his way. With Ike's Machines that are perfectly tuned, He has little problem doing it that way. Ike was doing Signs long before I knew what a V90 Bit was....

So something else looking at the .mpc. I SEE YELLOW Constraints.... the Yellow Numbers putting the Text in line 4.5 inches from the edge of the board... That "Might" have contributed to the location problem but more than likely in this case.... NO.... But Below I Altered the .mpc to a Place on End format and that would work too... That is how I would have done it....

My take on this is that when the board was measuring TWICE because you used Place on Center that the Brass Roller Lost contact with the board before it started cutting. I bet if you ran the project again with Masking Tape on the bottom of the board at the edge where the Brass Roller touches the board that would HELP....

ALSO you may have a Rolled Under Belt... It is VERY HARD TO SEE.... The Left Belt as you face the Keyboard is Notorious for Rolling Under... Especially when you cut a lot of narrow boards.... It stretches the Sand Paper Belt on the Brass Roller Side always being used. Makes the Belt Tapered like a funnel and it walks toward the brass roller and rollers under. It is very hard to see... I routinely CUT the belt 3/4 inch wide where the sand paper belt and the sand paper tray meet. Then with the Power OFF, I rotate the belt tearing the strip off... So on my machine you will see metal at the brass roller... I had a pile of ripped strips about a dozen this past summer as I was cutting mostly 6 inch wide stock...

I have re designed this project and if run with a PLACE ON END then it will measure once and base the measurement off of the Right side of Designer or the TIP of the Board..... I will make the Board in Designer SHORTER by 4 inches... I will select to NOT stay under Rollers. The Right Side of Designer has the Dead Area before the Carving Starts and the back side 4 inches will be there manually staying under the Rollers.... I do this ALL the Time... Make a 4 inch Dead area in Designer and make the Board on the LEFT side artwork Shorter. Depending on the Width of the sled, it can say, PLACE on CORNER rather than Place on End... But it will be measured from the Top Right side of Designer...

So BEFORE I re sized the Board, I drew some blocks.... Two Four Inch Blocks and One from the Edge of the Text to the Edge of the Board. Changed the size of the Board then selected ALL and moved the project left until my 4.28 block was at the Right Edge of Designer.

I removed all the Constraints too.... Use them to SET Up then right click on each and remove the Attachment (Restraint / Constraint)

So you could cut my Place On End project and leave your sled the same... Don't cut anything off of it... It would be like when I use a long board and keep cutting the projects off the end.... And this project will only measure ONCE....

AL

[liquidguitars]

Thats a good looking sled and your MPC looks right, BTW thanks for using 4" tails I not sure why anyone would go smaller in this case.

I agree with Al " Try "place on end" or "place on corner." as the way to go:

"keep the same" yes
" place on corner"
"cut to size ? " no

[boogalee]

Ike

Thank you for your reply. I guess i got confused when reading April 2008 Tips and Tricks. It shows a very small piece that will be carved in fig. 8, 9, and 10. The board size was increased to 1.5 X 7. With the rails it was 13". This seemed to be 1" short and it said not to stay under rollers and center on length. I am slow at learning how to use the carvewright.
I will give your suggestion a try in the morning.

Thanks again
Al

[Digitalwoodshop]

When you use 3.5 inch tails then the edge of the board is right on the tip of the roller..... I like 4 inch tails as the edge of the board stays away from popping out from under the roller.... On a machine that is not as finely tuned like Ike's, you can have a in feed or out feed tray that is TOO High or TOO Low... and the edge of the Board can BUMP into the Roller on the Edge of the FEED TRAY.... THAT could have caused this problem at first.... It hits a high out feed roller and the belt drives but the board is lifted UP off the Brass Roller....

OR a Head that is NOT Level.... Sometimes the Cross Connect from left to Right side of the machine gets loose and skips a tooth... Then the head is not level....

AL Who

[Ike]

Ike

Thank you for your reply. I guess i got confused when reading April 2008 Tips and Tricks. It shows a very small piece that will be carved in fig. 8, 9, and 10. The board size was increased to 1.5 X 7. With the rails it was 13". This seemed to be 1" short and it said not to stay under rollers and center on length. I am slow at learning how to use the carvewright.
I will give your suggestion a try in the morning.

Thanks again
Al


No problem Al! And Al (digitalwoodshop) brought up some other good reason, but not using the rollers I think is the reason? But then again I see what Al is saying too, the way you set it up in designer it should have worked without the rollers! I am not sure how tuned my machines are, but I never use the rollers unless it is a POM and I don't make too many of them! I have made a 1000 plus signs with my CW and every time I input the actual sign size in designer and in the machine the same size board as the inputted size. Sometimes I will input a 6" by 24" size board in designer and in the machine the board will be 5.5" or so by 24" and I will allow the CW to re-size. I have done the process so much I can't remember, but I think I always place on center.

All without a sled or using the rollers. Now Brandon is the best person to ask about sleds and Al! I never set up one and since I have had continue success not using one I never made one! I go to fairs and average 75-80 signs per 4-5 days event. I hand route many of my signs, but mostly use my CW so I am not exaggerating about the 1000 signs made!

If you ever need any help feel free to call me. I can PM it to you or it is on my website. Al also doesn't mind phone calls!

Ike

[liquidguitars]

April 2008 Tips and Tricks. It shows a very small piece that will be carved in fig. 8, 9, and 10. The board size was increased to 1.5 X 7. With the rails it was 13". This seemed to be 1" short and it said not to stay under rollers and center on length. I am slow at learning how to use the carvewright.


We made a lot of improvements since 2008...

[Ike]

When you use 3.5 inch tails then the edge of the board is right on the tip of the roller..... I like 4 inch tails as the edge of the board stays away from popping out from under the roller.... On a machine that is not as finely tuned like Ike's, you can have a in feed or out feed tray that is TOO High or TOO Low... and the edge of the Board can BUMP into the Roller on the Edge of the FEED TRAY.... THAT could have caused this problem at first.... It hits a high out feed roller and the belt drives but the board is lifted UP off the Brass Roller....

OR a Head that is NOT Level.... Sometimes the Cross Connect from left to Right side of the machine gets loose and skips a tooth... Then the head is not level....

AL Who

Lol Al my version C machine is off and I can't seem to get it right! But it is not off enough to do a sign! So my CW's are not all that tuned! My other one has a loose Z plate and hope tightening the roller will do the trick!

But thank you! Like I told the other Al you and Brandon are the ones to ask about sleds! I wasn't sure about using 4" rather then 3.5" how using the rollers would be effected by the extra inch.

Ike

[Ike]

We made a lot of improvements since 2008...

Lol Brandon I have been doing the same thing since 06! Then again I have been doing the same thing on many things for many years!

Ike

[boogalee]

Hi Al
I am somewhat new to carving even though I purchased this machine in Nov of 2009. I spent most of my time repairing the machine. In Sept of 2011 (after I broke another bit) I decided to try again so I sent the machine to be upgraded with the carvetight spindle. The machine had 20 hr carve time. $20.00 board tracking assembly and $830.00 of accessories I got the machine back. I carved 1 project (a address sign for my daughter) and it came out fine. Then I started playing with some other carvings (3 maybe 4) and each had some problem or another. The last project was the one I posted. I now have 23.8 hours of carve time on the machine. When I did the last carving I did put masking tape under the carrier board for tracking. With the up grade came a rubber belt and it seems to work better than the sand paper belt. The infeed and outfeed tables are just below the belt maybe 2 business cards (I just went in my shop and checked).
I think in the morning I will run the project again just to see what happens (flip the sled around so I don't measure the carved sled). I will also try your mcp. Thanks alot for that.
I'm still confused. If I have a boad that is 16" long and I tell it to center on length why would it matter if I told it to stay under rollers or not.
Thank again
Al

[boogalee]

We made a lot of improvements since 2008...

I'm sure they have but that is all I had to go by.

Thanks
Al B (so I don't get confused again LOL)

[AskBud]

Hi Al
I am somewhat new to carving even though I purchased this machine in Nov of 2009....................I'm still confused. If I have a boad that is 16" long and I tell it to center on length why would it matter if I told it to stay under rollers or not.
Thank again
AlWhen you select "Stay Under Rollers" the machine expects to see (measure) a board at least 7 inches longer than your design board.
AskBud

[cnsranch]

Looks like the constraints on "HEY" are set to 4.5" from the end, and that's pretty much what you got.

You've also got constraints on "MY BOY" set to 4.5" from the other end, but the machine can't do both without scaling the project (I think), so the machine must have defaulted to the first set of constraints, and ignored the other set (I guess).

Seems that you can't get the machine to honor the constraints and center the project at the same time - something's got to give.

Remove the constraints on each letter, make sure the text is aligned where you want (use the grid function to assure that), and re-carve the project.

Assuming your sled is flat, and you've got masking tape (you're welcome, AW) on the keypad side of the sled, and you haven't lost that pesky o ring on the roller (in other words, assuring that the sled isn't slipping, or the roller isn't turning at some point), it's got to be the constraints.

[cnsranch]

When you select "Stay Under Rollers" the machine expects to see (measure) a board at least 7 inches longer than your design board.
AskBud

Bud's right - so long as the carve isn't within 3.5" of either end (4" is better), tell the machine NOT to stay under the rollers, since you KNOW it will, anyway.

[Digitalwoodshop]

So it is looking more and more that the restraints on both ends may have caused this problem....

And that Scaling Thing..... To repeat what has been said above....

IF you select to Stay Under the Rollers than you must be SURE to install a Physical Board that is 7 inches longer than the Designer board. IF you tell the machine to Stay Under the Rollers and the Physical Board is the same as the Designer Board then the Machine will Subtract 7 inches from the Physical Board and it will SCALE the Pattern SMALLER to fit the left over Board after Subtracting 7 inches.


SO what many do is place a Physical Board in the machine the same size as the Designer Board and Select to NOT Stay under the Rollers and the machine will carve normal size. IF you are doing a Cut Path as part of this project and the Cut Bit gets near either end of the board and while being held by only 1 Roller, the board can Lift from the Table and Bind the 1/8 inch Cutting Bit and SNAP the $40.00 bit.... So for Users that post about Snapping the 1/8 inch Cutting Bit and blame the machine reading this post over and over until you understand what I am saying and you will see that "Pilot Error" is the real reason that the Bit Snapped. As in ONE ROLLER..... Using 1 Roller to cut any project is like riding a bike with 1 hand, MOST of the time everything is FINE.... Then sometimes you CRASH and blame the Bike.... LOL....


This is WHY we as a Community of Users wrote Tips and Tricks..... We were all NEW USERS once.... and want to make sure other have a less trouble than we did.... Some users would do the same thing having the board being held by ONE Roller and only have the board pinch the bit when it was at full 3/4 inch depth and snap the bit.... Then they would take the machine back to SEARS and tell the Manager that the Machine IS BROKE, I want ANOTHER.... One Member Bragged of being in the Double Digits of Replacement Machines from Sears.... Turning in more than a Dozen.... ALL I am betting was PILOT ERROR.... and Failure to Understand the Machine....

It was SEARS Liberal Return Policy that ruined the relationship between Sears and LHR... I am betting there was NOTHING wrong with that batch of a Dozen Machines that were turned in... And Hence all the BAD PRESS for the Machine.... Imagine FORD having the Same Policy as SEARS.... My Car is Out of GAS.... I need a NEW ONE.... Same Mentality...

Yes, this is a sensitive topic for me.... The Few Ruining it for the Masses.... Because SEARS let them get away with it... Some Minimum Wage Sales Rep knowing that if they REFUND the Money for the Machine then they (SEARS) will take the Commission from HIS next Pay Check... Trade it in and HE KEEPS HIS COMMISSION.... "I B Tradding thies thngs in ALL DAY"... "It don't cost me Nuttin"

AL... Stepping Off His Soap BOX and Away from the Keyboard.... :roll::):roll:

[cnsranch]

So, where do you stand on this issue AW? :mrgreen:

[boogalee]

Hi All
I would like to thank everyone for their help. I think that i may have actually learned something from this thread.
I spent some time in the shop trying different things (unfortunately none of it worked).

Ike, I tried what you said and here is a jpg of what happened. It carved to close to the left edge for the letters to fit but thanks for the input.



49209

Al, I ran your mpc and here is a jpg of the out come. It is also to close to the left edge for the letters.

49210

I also ran the original with the constraints set @ 3.11 from the center.

Do you think my machine is using metric when I am using inches (just joking).
Next I will try with lettes only and then with picture only. I will let you all know how it turns out.
I should be upset but it is too pretty of a day to be mad

Thanks again to all
Al B

[cnsranch]

Al B - is the rubber O Ring intact on the brass roller??

[boogalee]

Jerry

The o ring is in place. I checked that after reading your earlier post. It even looks new like they may (or may not) have replaced it with the upgrade.

Al B

[Ike]

Al it looks like your machine is out of calibration on the X movement. In the manual it tells you how to fix the issue. What is the final size of the sign? I am going to designer and design it like I would any other sign. Have you changed the O ring lately and when they replaced the chuck to the carvetight did they replace the brass roller? Correct me guys if I am wrong, but with the CT the new brass roller is needed? If it has the old roller it would throw off the X measurement. Also the wrong O ring will throw off the X measurement.

Try this with a scrap board after checking your X measurement. Carve it without the rollers or add 3.5" on each side or a 15" and cut to size. Like I said I don't use the rollers and carve the board that is the same size as I input in the designer. Anyway use a scrap piece of wood 6" wide and 8" long or if the board is dimensional 5.5" let the machine adjust the size or change the size to 5.5"!



Ike

[boogalee]

Hi Ike
The size of the sign doesn't really matter because I am just playing so I can learn the software and machine.
I have not changed the o ring myself. I'm not sure if the roller was changed when I did the upgrade. I assumed it would be if it affected the operation of the machine. I am going to say it was because I have carve 1 sign for my daughter and it was fine. I will call carvewright tommorrow and ask if the roller was changed.

When I do the carving the first thing displayed is what vector bit. I don't recall ever telling designer that I was doing a vector carving. So I select 60° v bit. It only uses the v bit for the letters.

If I tell the machine to measure the board (with sled attached) it measures 16 X 9.093 where the sled has a 1 1/2" rail on each side. I would think if the calibration was off it would not measure the board correctly.

If I understand you want me to cut a 6" X 8" board and use the mpc you posted. Also cut a board 15" X 6" and use the mpc you posted. Don't stay under rollers each time.
All of my wood is scrap (from someone else). My nephews own a cabinet shop and their cut off are sometimes 4' X 12" and 8/4. I am very fortunate.
I really really really appriciate you taking the time to help.

Thanks
Al B

[Ike]

Hi Ike
The size of the sign doesn't really matter because I am just playing so I can learn the software and machine.
I have not changed the o ring myself. I'm not sure if the roller was changed when I did the upgrade. I assumed it would be if it affected the operation of the machine. I am going to say it was because I have carve 1 sign for my daughter and it was fine. I will call carvewright tommorrow and ask if the roller was changed.

When I do the carving the first thing displayed is what vector bit. I don't recall ever telling designer that I was doing a vector carving. So I select 60° v bit. It only uses the v bit for the letters.

If I tell the machine to measure the board (with sled attached) it measures 16 X 9.093 where the sled has a 1 1/2" rail on each side. I would think if the calibration was off it would not measure the board correctly.

If I understand you want me to cut a 6" X 8" board and use the mpc you posted. Also cut a board 15" X 6" and use the mpc you posted. Don't stay under rollers each time.
All of my wood is scrap (from someone else). My nephews own a cabinet shop and their cut off are sometimes 4' X 12" and 8/4. I am very fortunate.
I really really really appriciate you taking the time to help.

Thanks
Al B

No problem, but for your raised letters I would use the 3/16th carving bit. When I mentioned the 2 sizes the 6" by 15" ( the width is always first then the length) So when you get 12" wide boards by 4' it would be 12" by 48" or 12" by 4'. I am saying this so we are on the same page! Anyway the 15" would be with rollers, but you will waste 7" after cutting to size. The mpc. I posted is 6" wide by 8" long and without rollers.

You are correct if it seems to be measuring the boards correctly it should be fine. But to make sure follow the CW manual and using a 36" long board check the length measurement. I cut a piece of mdf 12" wide and 36" long and I calibrate my X movement with it. The longer the board the more accurate your measurement will be.

I changed the mpc to have recessed centerline letters using a 60 degree bit. Before you had them outlined and a 60 degree would have been too big for that small of a letter. Again if you ever need to call me for help let me know and I will pm my number or pm yours and I will call you!

Ike

[Digitalwoodshop]

1:30 AM and I finished a project and one last look at the Forum before SLEEP.....

This Thread is getting Interesting....

At first thought looking at the latest pictures is "What Happened to the TEXT"? Then I saw that the Raster Carving was not complete and the Text would only be added AFTER the Raster Carving was completed... BUT.... The Doggy was in the Wrong Place... "WHY".... That is the nagging question....

I like Ike's Chopped Version and I believe if you selected "Center on board" that this would carve GREAT.....

Interesting I see Ike left a few Constraints and Centering on the Board.... I posted my version of Ike's Version with all the Constraints and Centering turned OFF.... Just for FUN.... PLEASE CARVE BOTH... I want to see what happens.. Please carve the Whole Thing so the Letters Show Up.... Call it a "Donation to Science"... WE see the result of Constraints Turned ON and OFF.... There Should NOT be a difference....

Now to Troubleshooting.... FIRST.... Get a longer board (About 36 inches) and place it in the machine and ask the machine to measure this.... I want to check the Brass Roller and Board Detector along with the X Gear Box.... You might have a partially broken X Gear....

And did I read.... (Sorry it's 1:30 I am not working on all Cylinders...) You have the Rubber Belts Installed?

IF SO..... DO the 36+- Board Measurement Test.... Post the Results...


Actual Board Measurement


Test 1


Test 2


Test 3


Test 4


Average Reading....



THIS WHOLE Problem could come down to when the board is Squished down on the Rubber Belts the Rubber Bulges like a Radial Tire IN BETWEEN the 2 Belts and the Brass Roller is being HIT by the Bulging BELT.....

Some EARLY Belt Testers reported that the Brass Roller needed to have the Holes made OVAL so the Brass Roller Assembly could move more toward the CENTER of between the Belts and NOT be Touched by the Bulging RUBBER....

And did I read where you asked why the machine asked for the V60 FIRST.....

Well, Normally the machine asks for the last Bit that it is GOING to USE FIRST.... This is when you are loading the Bits in the Beginning... So the Last Bit you install will be the FIRST one that is going to CUT... Normally it is all Raster then it would only call for the Tapered Carving Bit. IF in this case you have V60 Text... Then it would ask for the V60 First, then the Carving Bit and take off with the Carving Bit cutting you dog then asking for the V60 and doing it last.... IF this had a Cut Path, then normally it asks for the Cut Path Bit FIRST as it always cuts out the Vectors LAST...... Raster, V Bit, the Drilling and Cut Out with the 1/8 th inch End Mill Bit.... Sometimes if you go into a mpc that has V Text AND a Cut Path then the Machine has been known to ask for the 1/8th End Mill or CUTTING BIT, FIRST.... Then Know that if you went into the mpc and changed the Centerline Text Word that when you load this project in the Machine that the machine may ask for the V60 that was change recently in the Project FIRST then ask for the 1/8 inch Cutting Bit........

Just a WAG..... Wild AL Guess....

Good Night...

AL:roll:

[boogalee]

Ike & Al
I tried to save your mcp files and it said I need a license for center text. I called Connie and ordered the license so depending on how long it take for the license will be how long it takes me to try the mcp files. She also mentioned I should purchase a technical support agreement. I don't know if it is worth it ($25.00 per issue or $150.00 per year)(opinions accepted). The machine has 496H 46m power on 24H 3m cut motor and 27H 6m servoing which is a indication that I spent more time working on the machine than carving. In the mean time I will check the calibration.

NOTE: I asked if the upgrade included replacing the tracking roller and o ring and the answer was yes.

Thanks again
Al B

[Ike]

Didn't think about the restraints, I wanted all the letters to be inline. Interesting I have set them before without problems? I thought you removed the restraints because it was in a sled? Hmm very interesting Al! I didn't think about rubber belts good job thinking about that! On my version "C" I had to replace the out feed table and it still seems to be off and like you I cut my sandpaper belt down a little. I said a 36" board because that is what the manual says to use, keep in mind the longer the board without support will throw off the measurements. If you do use a longer board I suggest it to a 4"-6' wide board to help with the weight.

Anyway Al B we are going to figure this out!

Ike

[Ike]

Ike & Al
I tried to save your mcp files and it said I need a license for center text. I called Connie and ordered the license so depending on how long it take for the license will be how long it takes me to try the mcp files. She also mentioned I should purchase a technical support agreement. I don't know if it is worth it ($25.00 per issue or $150.00 per year)(opinions accepted). The machine has 496H 46m power on 24H 3m cut motor and 27H 6m servoing which is a indication that I spent more time working on the machine than carving. In the mean time I will check the calibration.

NOTE: I asked if the upgrade included replacing the tracking roller and o ring and the answer was yes.

Thanks again
Al B

Al did you ask if they calibrated the X measurement? As forth to the tech support it is up to you and if you think you will call 6 times for help? I get a lot of help in forum! Sorry I didn't know you didn't have centerline, however that is a good investment! It will carve any true type font to centerline. Other machines like my K2 CNC will not nor will Shopbot without very expensive software. So I know it is frustrating,but this little machine is great! It needs more attention, but once you learn how to use it and work on it you will be happy!

I had a 4' by 8' Shopbot I never used and sold because of buying the CW! I also bought my 14" by 25" K2 and I have never used and I have owned it for over 3 years! So once we figure this out you look back and laugh!

Ike

[boogalee]

Ike
I just called Connie and asked if they calibrated the X measurement and was told they don't know. When they do the upgrade they do a board test. If it is o.k. they don't calibrate, if it is out then they do calibrate.
I would like to look back and laugh but it has been 2 years (so far). I still have faith that eventually it will work (i even spent $150.00 for more software to add to the machine that has been a problem.

Thanks
Al B

[boogalee]

Hi Al

here are the results of the board test.

Board 1 - 4" X 47" 3/4 poplar
test 1 - 46.933
test 2 - check tracking roller error
test 3 - 46.944
test 4 - 46.893
test 5 - 46.540

Board 2 - 5" X 36" 3/4" plywood
test 1 thru 7 check tracking roller error
stopped testing on this board.

Board 3 - 3 1/8" X 48" 3/4" plywood
test 1 - 47.951
test 2 - check tracking roller error
test 3 - check tracking roller error
test 4 - 47.899
test 5 - check tracking roller error
test 6 - 47.574
test 7 - 47.946

[dbfletcher]

Do you have a spare rubber o-ring you can swap on your tracking roller? I'm thinking yours might be worn. That seems to be a lot of deviation for the multiple measurements of each board. I'm normally in the .00x's

[Ike]

If it was me I would follow the manual and adjust the calibration. The problem is the board you cut my not be a true 48" The next thing when is the last time you checked the head pressure? Are you getting any load board messages? How smooth is the head movement up and down? Plus what is the temp in your shop, too cold effects the head movement. If the O ring is bad make sure you replace it with the correct O ring.

Ike

[dbfletcher]

If the O ring is bad make sure you replace it with the correct O ring.

The rubber belts DO use a different size o-ring than the sandpaper belts.

[lynnfrwd]

The o-ring is actually not even necessary. I assume someone has asked if you have masking tape on it.

Turn the board over and measure the other side. The o-ring can wear a groove in the material and stop measuring correctly.

[dbfletcher]

Really? I get a zillion tracking errors anytime my o-ring get worn... if it breaks I never get past "check tracking roller" until I put a new one on? Or is you comment specifically for rubber belts? (bought but never installed)

[Digitalwoodshop]

Doug, you may have a turned under Sand Paper Belt and don't know it.... The Turned over Belt raises the board away from the brass roller AND makes the X drive harder as the paper is jammed at the roll under. Honestly... I would CUT the Belt like I do... Cut it with the power off and turn the belt and rip off a 3/4 inch strip.... This lets the board rest on the metal at the brass roller and the Brass Roller gets a bigger Bite....

Al B,

And getting the Tracking Roller Errors with PLYWOOD.... TWO Strips of Masking Tape would have helped the Brass Roller Bridge the Voids of the Plywood.... That Board Edge where the Brass Roller rides needs to be close to perfect.....

AL

[boogalee]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I shall return Friday.

Al B

[Ike]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I shall return Friday.

Al B

Enjoy Al have a great holiday! I am my granddaughters and parents are at my house and my oldest son and wife the girls parent will be here tomorrow and my youngest on Friday!

Ike

[jaroot]

Al is right here! Ours had rolled over nearly 3/4" before I realized it and was just starting to getting tracking errors. Once I trimmed it off errors went away.


Doug, you may have a turned under Sand Paper Belt and don't know it.... The Turned over Belt raises the board away from the brass roller AND makes the X drive harder as the paper is jammed at the roll under. Honestly... I would CUT the Belt like I do... Cut it with the power off and turn the belt and rip off a 3/4 inch strip.... This lets the board rest on the metal at the brass roller and the Brass Roller gets a bigger Bite....

Al B,

And getting the Tracking Roller Errors with PLYWOOD.... TWO Strips of Masking Tape would have helped the Brass Roller Bridge the Voids of the Plywood.... That Board Edge where the Brass Roller rides needs to be close to perfect.....

AL

[Digitalwoodshop]

Yes, I speak from Experiance.... Found the same myself.... So it is easy to just mention it later.... I have had many rolled under belts...

AL

[bergerud]

I think that cutting the belts is a bit drastic. My belts rolled up in the early days and I simply re centered them using the following trick I posted years ago. I keep my eye on them but they have not been a problem since.

"The sand paper rollers need not be removed and put in a vise to re-center the belts. Cut two 3/8" diameter approximately 0.8" long pieces of metal (from old bolts). These two pieces can be wedged between the spring shafts and the edges of the out feed table (see pictures below). The cam action of lifting the out feed table pushes on the spring shafts and releases the tension on the sand paper belt. The belt can easily be slid back to center. (Make sure you unroll the edge of the belt if if has rolled up.) The same procedure works on the front and rear belts."



http://forum.carvewright.com/images/misc/paperclip.png Attached Thumbnails
http://forum.carvewright.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20906&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1236309622 (http://forum.carvewright.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20906&d=1236309622) http://forum.carvewright.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20907&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1236309643 (http://forum.carvewright.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20907&d=1236309643)

[DocWheeler]

Has this problem been resolved? Sorry, I got into this late.

I have two old machines that use a short piece of rubber tubing to support the "brass roller", is that still being used?
If it is, perhaps it is not in place on Al B's machine (or Doug's).

[dbfletcher]

Doug, you may have a turned under Sand Paper Belt and don't know it.... The Turned over Belt raises the board away from the brass roller AND makes the X drive harder as the paper is jammed at the roll under. Honestly... I would CUT the Belt like I do... Cut it with the power off and turn the belt and rip off a 3/4 inch strip.... This lets the board rest on the metal at the brass roller and the Brass Roller gets a bigger Bite....

Al B,

And getting the Tracking Roller Errors with PLYWOOD.... TWO Strips of Masking Tape would have helped the Brass Roller Bridge the Voids of the Plywood.... That Board Edge where the Brass Roller rides needs to be close to perfect.....

AL

Early on I had the problem, but not I pretty much just cut 1/2 off the belts even before I put them on. I suppose it is still possible that it rolled under without me noticing it, but I generally recenter anytime I start to see it getting close to the brass roller side. I'll have to play around next chance I get. Perhaps one of the later firmware upgrades changed the way the machine reacts when the o-ring is worn or missing. Previously, when ever I would start to get tracking errors, simply swapping out the o-ring for a new one typically resolved the error. I did have one break or come off once and fought with the machine for a good 20 minutes before I noticed it was missing. Put a new one on and the tracking errors vanished.

[bergerud]

You must have something wrong with the board sensor. Mine leaves tracks on the wood showing that the o ring is squashed and the brass roller is pushed hard against the wood. I have often wondered what the purpose of the o ring is. (I have also wondered why some think soft masking tape helps.) Those tracks on the wood show me that there is a positive contact and it takes no torque to turn the roller. The only reason I could come up with for the o ring is to help smooth out the depression of the roller when the board reengages after having left the roller. (The bottom edge of the board could be close to the center of the roller and push the roller sideways instead of down. The o ring deforms and helps push the roller down??)

If one needs the o ring for measurement, then one must not be getting very accurate x measurement since accuracy is so sensitive to roller radius. I would look at how hard the brass roller is being pressed against the board. My roller (without the o ring) depresses about 0.1 of an inch as the board is pushed down, and, like I said, the force involved makes marks in the wood.

[boogalee]

Hi all
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving (I will, next year when I finnally get my machine up and running LOL).

Today in shop temperature is 74°
I cut 2 new boards pine(1 - 5 1/2" X 36" X 3/4 and 1 - 5 1/2 X 48 X3/4). Each board has masking tape on the edge.
Measured 3' board and got Tracking Roller Error.
Replaced o ring.
Measured 4' Board
test 1 - 48.187
test 2 - 48.175
test 3 - 48.159
test 4 - 48.159
flipped board over
test 1 - 48.169
test 2 - 48.155
test 3 - 48.153
test 4 - 48.153
Measured 3' board
test 1 - 36.090
test 2 - 36.102
test 3 - 36.089
test 4 - 36.088
flipped board over
test 1 - 36.075
test 2 - 36.079
test 3 - 36.061
test 4 - 36.083
I am ready to calibrate the machine but have no idea where I would set the offset with the large disparity.

Thanks
Al B

[Ike]

Al that is no too far off, you may not have a square end or you tape may be off. Still here is the instructions.

Calibrating the Machine Offsets
The "Calibrate Offsets" function allows the user to fine tune the machine’s
calibration settings for best tracking and measuring performance. There are
three calibration settings that can be changed by the user: the X axis (in and
out direction), the Y axis (side-to-side direction) and the board thickness
settings can all be adjusted.
Calibrating the X-Axis
The most frequently calibrated setting is the X-axis. You will want to
consider calibrating the X-axis if you are consistently getting an incorrect
board length measurement or if you are replacing the factory sandpaper
belts with the rubber belts.
To do this calibration you will need a board roughly 36” long that is clean and
straight. It is very important that the board edge that is placed into the
machine up against the squaring plate be very clean and free of defects.
This is the edge that the board tracking sensor roller will be running on and
measuring.
Measure and record your board length with as much accuracy as you can
get. Make sure to perform the measurement in the center of the board width,
as this is where the machine will also measure (Hand Measured Length -
_______inches). Load the board into your machine and measure it using the
“Measure Board” function. This can be accessed by pressing the “7”
(Measure) key on the keypad or by using the up/down arrows to navigate to
the measure function from the CarveWright Main Menu. The display will
then ask for the direction the user wishes to measure.
Press the “1” key on the keypad to measure the Length. Record the number
(Machine Measured Length - ________inches) and compare it to the length
you measured by hand. At this point you have to decide if the difference in
LHR Technologies, Inc. CarveWright™ System (Rev 1.49) 05/26/10 51
the length measurements warrants recalibrating your machine. If you would
like to recalibrate your machine continue reading this document.
Before recalibrating, make sure that you have the latest CarveWright
firmware version running on your flash card (version 1.161 or later). Next,
navigate to the recalibration menu by following the directions and flow chart
below.
1. Turn on your machine and navigate to the Configurations Menu from
the CarveWright Main Menu pressing the “0” (Options) key on the
keypad.
2. Navigate to the Calibrate Offsets menu item by using the up/down
arrows and press ENTER, or select item 6 by pressing the “6” key.
3. Navigate to the Manual X Axis Cal menu item by using the up/down
arrows and press ENTER, or select item 4 by pressing the “4” key.
You are now at the screen that shows you the default calibration numbers
(factory calibrated) as well as the current calibration setting for the length
measurement. You now have two options:
1) Pressing “1” (Default) will restore the current value to the factory default
value.
2) Pressing “2” (New) will allow you to type in a new value to adjust for the
difference in measured lengths. New numbers can be entered with
decimal or fractional values. Press ENTER to save once a value is
entered.
To calculate the value to enter, first take a look at the difference in the
measured lengths. If the hand measured length is longer than the machine
measured length you will need to add units to the displayed current value,
and conversely, if the hand measured length is shorter than the machine
measured length you will need to subtract units from the current value setting
To find the magnitude of the change to the current value subtract the two
numbers (Length difference - _________inches). Although not an exact
correlation, you should change the current value setting by 1 unit for every
0.03” (or for every 1/32nd of an inch).
CarveWright Main Menu
1) Project Menu
Configuration Menu
1) Quality <<Default>>
Calibration Menu
1) Reset Cal
Dflt: ###.### Cur: ###.###
1) Default 2) New
Press “0” (Options)
Press “6” (Calibrate Offsets)
Press “4” (Manual X Axis Cal)
LHR Technologies, Inc. CarveWright™ System (Rev 1.49) 05/26/10 52
So now you have a direction (add or subtract) to change and a magnitude
(number of units). As an example: say you have a board that measures
exactly 36” long by your tape measure and the machine measures board at
35.875”, adjust the X axis cal number by -4. If the current value was set to
890.000, change it to 894.000. Or if the machine measures 36.125”, adjust
the X axis cal number +4.
Once the new value is entered you will see it appear as the Current value on
the display. Go back and measure the board with the machine again and
see how much closer the measured values become. Rerun the calibration
routine as many times as necessary to attain the level of accuracy that you
desire.
Calibrating the Y-Axis
You will want to consider calibrating the Y-axis if you are consistently getting
an incorrect board width measurement or if you are seeing an offset in the
centering of a project in the side-to-side direction. To do this calibration you
will need a board at least 6” wide that has clean and straight edges. Wider
boards allow for better calibration accuracy.
Before recalibrating, make sure that you have the latest CarveWright
firmware version running on your flash card (version 1.161 or later). Next,
navigate to the recalibration menu by following the directions and flow chart
below.
There are two options in the Manual Y-Axis Calibration menu:
1. Calibrate Width – This calibration will allow you to adjust the machine if
it is measuring the width incorrectly.
2. Calibrate Y Offset - This calibration will allow you to adjust the machine’s
Y position if it is not placing a pattern in the right location in the side-toside
direction (i.e. not centering in the Y direction).
CarveWright Main Menu
1) Project Menu
Configuration Menu
1) Quality <<Default>>
Calibration Menu
1) Reset Cal
Select Y Calibration
1) Calibrate Width
Press “0” (Options)
Press “6” (Calibrate Offsets)
Press “5” (Manual Y Axis Cal)
LHR Technologies, Inc. CarveWright™ System (Rev 1.49) 05/26/10 53
Dflt: 0.### Cur: 0.###
1) Default 2) New
Select Dimension
2) Width
Calibrate Width Option
To begin the width calibration you will want to do a hand measurement and
machine measurement of your board width. Measure and record your board
width with as much accuracy as you can get in roughly the center of the length
(Hand Measured Width - _______inches). Load the board into your machine
making sure that it is centered under the Y-Truck, and measure it using the
“Measure Board” function. This can be accessed by pressing the “7” (Measure)
key on the keypad or by using the up/down arrows to navigate to the measure
function from the CarveWright Main Menu. The display will then ask for the
direction the user wishes to measure.
Press the “2” key on the keypad to measure the Width. Record the number
(Machine Measured Width - ________inches) and compare it to the width
you measured by hand. At this point you have to decide if the difference in
the width measurements warrants recalibrating your machine.
If you would like to recalibrate your machine continue reading this document. If
you wish calibrate the width measurement select “1” from the Select Y
Calibration menu shown above. You are now at the screen that shows you the
default calibration numbers (factory calibrated) as well as the current calibration
setting for the width measurement.
You now have two options:
1) Pressing “1” (Default) will restore the current value to the factory default
value.
2) Pressing “2” (New) will allow you to type in a new value to adjust for the
difference in measured widths. A screen will then appear that prompts
you to input whether your hand measurement was Narrower (option 1)
or Wider (option 2) than the machine measurement. (For example, if
your board measures 6.1” wide by hand but measures 6.05” by the
machine, you will select “2” to tell the machine that the actual
measurement is wider.
The machine will then ask for the amount by which the measurement is off.
Enter the new value in decimal or fractional form. In the example above
type .05 and press ENTER to save the value. Repeat the board measure
test and repeat the calibration steps as necessary.

[boogalee]

Ike

The ends are square (measured with a machinist square) and when I taped the board I let it hang over and cut it with a razor knife.
I have the instructions (thanks any way) but I don't know what number to use for the offset. If the measurements were only off by a few thousands (as .03 = 1 or .06 =2 or .09 = 3) I could do a average. On 4' board side 1 with the measurement being off by .028 from high to low the offset would be 1 and the average being 48.170 the offset would be 5.6. On the 4' board side 2 the difference between high and low is .016 the offset is .5 and the average is 48.157 and the offset would be 5. So what I am really asking is do we take the average and set the offset to 5 or am I not understanding the procedure.

Thanks Al B

[liquidguitars]

I cut .50" off the keyboard side on all of my sand paper belts even the rubber belts. Then look to make sure the AUX roller is free of dirt, then load the 48", after your cranked down the unit, lift up on the board a few times to make sure it's tight in the CW, then measure and calibrate the unit in x. if your off .152" thats a good starting point.

on a side note if you load your sled "off center" 4" tail directly under the board sensor you have a good fulcrum to test the table, much better than loosing a board due to slippage.

[Ike]

Sorry Al no easy way I know it is a guessing game, adjust measure and adjust again if needed. Lather and repeat! A little hint I have never got a true 36" I came a close as 36.003 so I go with it! Get it as close as you can and do a test carve! I also agree I have trimmed my belts and had no problems! Sometimes you do things for a quick fix and it becomes the normal!

Ike

[Deolman]

I read earlier you had sent your machine in for repairs. I also believe sometimes shipping causes the 4 posts the head is guided on to become misaligned slightly. I would measure my head pressure with a scale and it would never read the same pressure twice in a row. It was always within specs but I was having problems. If the head pressure is not correct, the machine cannot perform up to specifications. I did the alignment for the posts and my problems went away. You can find the procedure here:

http://www.carvewright.com/service/Service_instructions/CarveWright_service_adjust_head_pressure.pdf

I suspect the normal basketball handling that the shipper uses has your posts out of alignment. I would consider aligning the posts prior to calibration.

Some time ago I was modifying a plunge router and the instructions said to use "STP Motor Oil Treatment" on the posts. (Sometimes it is known as "motor Honey." You can find it at an Auto Supply Store in a blue plastic bottle.) It went on to say that it can collect dust but the lubricating properties are not affected. I thought I would try it on the Carvewright's four guide posts and I am very happy with the way it has performed. I have used this procedure for over a year now and won't go back. One of the benefits is I don't have to lubricate the posts as often.

[boogalee]

Hello again

Today I calibrated the machine (36.018 on the 36" board) and ran Ike's mcp. The board is 5.5" X 8" X 3/4 pine. I told the machine to scale to width, center on length and not stay under the rollers. The carving started about 5/8 from the right of the board which does not leave enough room for the letters. When it went to carve the letters on the right side the machine continued to run but did nothing because the bit was not over the board. I stopped the carve. I do not think the machine knows where the center is. I guess the next step is to call tech support.

Attached is a jpg of the carve.

49367

I would like to thank everyone for their help.
Al B

[Ike]

Hello again

Today I calibrated the machine (36.018 on the 36" board) and ran Ike's mcp. The board is 5.5" X 8" X 3/4 pine. I told the machine to scale to width, center on length and not stay under the rollers. I used a 1/16 carving bit and a 3/16 vector bit. The carving started about 5/8 from the right of the board which does not leave enough room for the letters. When it went to carve the letters on the right side the machine continued to run but did nothing because the bit was not over the board. I stopped the carve. I do not think the machine knows where the center is. I guess the next step is to call tech support.

Attached is a jpg of the carve.

49367

I would like to thank everyone for their help.
Al B

UGH all I could say was DAMN IT! Wow I am sorry, my back is out otherwise I would try the carving with my machine. Maybe I will try? Are you getting any stuck rollers errors? It must be the tracking roller. Maybe in options you should try resetting the settings back to the factory settings?

Ike

[Ike]

I read earlier you had sent your machine in for repairs. I also believe sometimes shipping causes the 4 posts the head is guided on to become misaligned slightly. I would measure my head pressure with a scale and it would never read the same pressure twice in a row. It was always within specs but I was having problems. If the head pressure is not correct, the machine cannot perform up to specifications. I did the alignment for the posts and my problems went away. You can find the procedure here:

http://www.carvewright.com/service/Service_instructions/CarveWright_service_adjust_head_pressure.pdf





I suspect the normal basketball handling that the shipper uses has your posts out of alignment. I would consider aligning the posts prior to calibration.

Some time ago I was modifying a plunge router and the instructions said to use "STP Motor Oil Treatment" on the posts. (Sometimes it is known as "motor Honey." You can find it at an Auto Supply Store in a blue plastic bottle.) It went on to say that it can collect dust but the lubricating properties are not affected. I thought I would try it on the Carvewright's four guide posts and I am very happy with the way it has performed. I have used this procedure for over a year now and won't go back. One of the benefits is I don't have to lubricate the posts as often.


Have you checked the head pressure, that could be another issue. Is the the board moving smoothly or does it sound like it is struggling? Or do you get a load board error and need to raise and lower the head until the message goes away?

I am going to try the carve and I will let you know.

Ike

[mtylerfl]

... I told the machine to scale to width, center on length and not stay under the rollers....Al B


Hello,

Never, ever, never - no, not even ever, allow your projects to be scaled. See the following...
ISSUE 18 March 2009 – Scaling and How to Avoid It! (http://www.carvewright.com/downloads/tips/CarveWrightTips&Tricks_Mar09.pdf)

[Ike]

Al I started the carve and it did the same thing! So it must be the design? Of course I do everything wrong, but with my signs I always scale. Why in the world do we have all these options if they are not to used? Anyway have you tried carving a different project? One thing with 8" it only makes contact with one roller, so I took a 15" board and stayed under the rollers using a 5.5" by 8" board and I told it to scale so maybe that is it maybe not? I will go out and try it again.

I am trying to re-size the design


Ike

[Ike]

Al sorry now my CW is down! The roller gear must be striped and I need to adjust the head on my other so I no help. Try a different sign and see if it was the design.

If you want I made up a test sign you only need a 3/16th carving bit. Sorry I couldn't help.

Ike

[mtylerfl]

Hello again

Today I calibrated the machine (36.018 on the 36" board) and ran Ike's mcp. The board is 5.5" X 8" X 3/4 pine. I told the machine to scale to width, center on length and not stay under the rollers. The carving started about 5/8 from the right of the board which does not leave enough room for the letters. When it went to carve the letters on the right side the machine continued to run but did nothing because the bit was not over the board. I stopped the carve. I do not think the machine knows where the center is. I guess the next step is to call tech support.

Attached is a jpg of the carve.


I would like to thank everyone for their help.
Al B

Al,

The size of your layout (the AL 3.mpc) is .75" x 6" x 15". This means the minimum size of the actual board you put into your machine must be .75" x 6" x 22" to carve correctly. NEVER allow scaling. If you want the project to be smaller, then you should redo your layout to the proper/desired size. Center your board when prompted. This is a very, very simple project and will run without a hitch as long as you follow the guidlines given and something is not 'goofy' with your machine that we don't know about.

Ditch the sled idea for this project for now, so you can have a successful carve without issues (or was that someone else trying to use a sled-I don't remember) . Since you do not have any Cutpaths in your layout, you will need to manually trim off the excess 3.5" from each end. You may have read some strong opinions about using "4" tails" - fine and won't hurt a thing, but totally unnecessary - the 3.5" at each end is ample, as long as you center the board in your machine so you don't have a lot of the board "hanging" out at one end which invites slight tipping during the start of the measuring procedure (momentary loss of contact with the brass roller can occur). You should have had 30 or 40 of these done by now - super easy machine to run and operate, if normal procedures are followed.

[mtylerfl]

Al sorry now my CW is down! The roller gear must be striped and I need to adjust the head on my other so I no help. Try a different sign and see if it was the design.

If you want I made up a test sign you only need a 3/16th carving bit. Sorry I couldn't help.

Ike

Sorry your machine is down, Ike! The new mpc test you have there requires a board that is 23" long if it is "guaranteed" to carve correctly. The project layout size is 1" x 6" x 16"....therefore, the board you put into the machine has to be at least 1" x 6" x 23" (perhaps you meant .75" for the thickness??)

[mtylerfl]

Al,

I took a few minutes to layout a new "My Boy" project for you. I guessed at what your desired finished size you wanted (loosely based upon one of your earlier posts). This layout is placed on a "virtual board" sized at .75" x 7" x 10". So, your REAL board you put into the machine must be at least .75" x 7" x 17"

I made several modifications...

1) changed the font to a non-MS font (changed it to Arial Bold) MS fonts in your list are usually screen fonts only...the one used was for Microsoft Outlook. Better to avoid MS fonts as most are designed primarily for screen display.

2) I reduced the font and pattern depth for a better carve...also added a Draft to the recessed lettering to minimize chipout on the sharp inside corners of the lettering during machining

3) Created a Cut Path around the perimeter of the layout...this gives you a 1/2" border around the finished cutout plaque..again, I "guessed" that is what you wanted (The finished plaque will be 5.5" x 9") . The Cut Path is set for Max Pass of 0.3" per pass which is very conservative. Also specified 3/16" tabs for secure holding power on the cutout.

Note: I noticed the dog pattern has some undesireable artifacts around the dog, so you will see those after the carve. However, you can sand those out easy enough. I hope this helps!

[liquidguitars]

You may have read some strong opinions about using "4" tails" - fine and won't hurt a thing, but totally unnecessary - the 3.5" at each end is ample,

Yes as long as you are not using a sled.... buttttt if you use a sled I would disregard MT's posts as its relevant just to non sled users.

This thread is now officially goofy to the point of mass confusion well done guys. :)

[Ike]

Al, I am sorry this turned into the same argument about how to make a stinking sign! You can follow whoever you like, I have been doing the same thing for the last 4 years and made several signs without rollers and scaling the size with no problems and I will continue to do so!

I think the problem was the size of the board and the design and I think trying a different sign however you want to make it will tell if it is the CW or it was the design?

Ike

[boogalee]

Ike

I have checked the head pressure and it is 78 pounds. The board is not moving slowly and it does not sound like it is struggling. I have not had any errors since I replaced the o ring. I did another carve on a 6" X 15" board and have attached a jpg. As you can see it is off center. I will try another carve with a new design (possible yours, or one I create or maybe both) and see what the outcome is. As far as your carvewright being down, that is the story of my life (LOL) but I am getting a lot of practice measuring boards. I will let you know the outcome.



49399

Michael T

Thank you for your input and the mpc. The sign is only for practice so the size do not really matter. If you look at the jpg that I attached you see where the carve is off center and that is the problem (somewhat). If I tell the machine to center on length it should be smart enought to do this. I will give your mcp a try and see what happens. The original carve was with a sled and the sled also was carved. I mostly was trying to build a sled that would work.
Thank you again

Al B

[Ike]

Well let me know like I said carve it the way you feel is best. I only shared what I have been doing with success for years. I really can't be much help , it is kind of difficult trying to help when your credibility is questioned in every other post! ( no I don't mean you Al!)

I really hope you get this figured out!

Ike

[mtylerfl]

Michael T

Thank you for your input and the mpc. The sign is only for practice so the size do not really matter. If you look at the jpg that I attached you see where the carve is off center and that is the problem (somewhat). If I tell the machine to center on length it should be smart enought to do this. I will give your mcp a try and see what happens. The original carve was with a sled and the sled also was carved. I mostly was trying to build a sled that would work.
Thank you again

Al B

Hi Al,

The type of problem pictured is a tracking error. A few possible causes for that, but usually it is due to momentary loss of contact with the brass tracking roller. The following Tips & Tricks has a number of items to be aware of and how to avoid the problem: ISSUE 27 January – February 2010 – Maintaining Accurate Board Tracking (http://forum.carvewright.com/downloads/tips/CarveWrightTips&Tricks_Jan_Feb10.pdf)

The roller can lose contact due to a dent/dimpled area under the board/sled where the roller rides, a "tipping" of the board/sled during measuring (this is why it is important to center the board/sled in the machine before the measuring routine), or perhaps the sled is too slick along the bottom, and the roller "slipped" giving bad data to the built-in indexing routine.

When you run the MPC I provided, just do a quick check under your board to be sure it is defect free, make sure the board is flush with the stationary guide plate and that the sliding guide plate is not too tight against the board (I use a thickness of two or three business cards between the sliding plate and the edge of the board to assure a small gap is present). I can almost guarantee success if you run the MPC as-is and use the board dimensions I mentioned. Please do let us know how it comes out!

Also, you may call me 9am to 5pm Mon-Fri if you need some step-by-step over the phone before running the project, or if you have any questions whatsoever. (see my phone number at the carvebuddy.com website)

Oh, almost forgot...if your board is wider than 7", that's OK...the carve will come out fine. Also, if the board is longer than 17", that's OK too (in fact, DO cut it slightly longer, say to at least 17.125"). The most important thing is to not use a board that is smaller in width or length, otherwise you will get a scaling error message that requires a larger board to correct. If your board is oversize, you will be prompted to "Keep Orignal Size" -press "1" to keep the size of the project the same as your layout. Do NOT scale the project under any circumstances and you will find your projects will work - everytime. (Of course, assuming there is nothing awry with your machine that we haven't discovered yet.)

[liquidguitars]

I mostly was trying to build a sled that would work.


Sorry then I would not recommend Michael's system...

I Would go back to Al,s or my system as the defacto you will have a safer way to make sled parts and save money on wood. BTW your sled and MPC was fine you just need to run the machine in a sled mode.

[mtylerfl]

Sorry then I would not recommend Michael's system...

I Would go back to Al,s or my system as the defacto you will have a safer way to make sled parts and save money on wood. BTW your sled and MPC was fine you just need to run the machine in a sled mode.

Al,

You see differing opinions here, and I'm sorry about that. I can guarantee you that my method works -everytime. No mystery about sled building either - all of the same principles apply. Same procedure except that most of us prefer to design a layout for sleds a little differently than for a plain board. In other words, drawing the sled dimensions in Designer and centering the design/carve in the middle of the sled with the 3.5" (or 4" tails, as you wish) as part of the layout. Easy stuff.

[Ike]

Wow all I can do is shake my head.... Why is there is only one way and any other wrong. I too can guarantee my method will work every time, why because I make all my signs without rollers and scaling if a board's width is slightly less. I have material that ranges in thickness from 3/4" to 7/8" so I use 1" in designer and never had any issues. My signs have came out the size they were designed. It would be a different story if I only made a few signs, however I have made hundreds of signs. So I not going for I must be lucky. If not using the rollers and scaling are NOT options to use then why are they options?

Now unless your goal is to openly belittle and upset, then goal reached... If I am wrong with my method why have these few signs worked? All I was trying to do was help Al and I shared how I made signs. I didn't say my way was the best and if he was to use another method then it would be his mistake. He tried the test sign first with a sled, so I suggested my way when the sled didn't work to see if it was the machine. I also suggested making the board 7" longer and try carving the test sign.

I thought the forum was for any member to jump in and try to help. One member will give some advice then another give some different advice... Advice to help not to one up the next person or in not so many words show how dumb it is the way they do things or suggest. It really irks me when this happens, instead of being matter of fact how about trying something like.... I have had better results for me doing it this way or if that doesn't work how about trying this?

Just a thought

Ike

[liquidguitars]

Here is a good thread about making and using sleds:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19502-Sliding-Plate-Message

[Deolman]

Ike

I have checked the head pressure and it is 78 pounds.

Al B

Did you see my previous post? Did you check the alignment of the 4 posts?

[mtylerfl]

Here is a good thread about making and using sleds:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19502-Sliding-Plate-Message

That is a good thread, and eventually got the job done for Capt. Bruce!...but, it wasn't until post #14 where the sled design itself for the project was what I would do and is perfectly sensible and in-line with the general factory recommendations for sled design and project layout. Again...3.5" tails or 4" tails does not matter...either will work. I still cannot recommend placing the sled on the end for the initial measuring routine...to much chance for board lift at the beginning of the routine (not just me saying that at all, but per Chris R at Carvewright and why that is emphasized in the Tracking Article - fewer Tech Support calls and fewer problems for customers!). A lot of potential for indexing being thrown off using that "end measuring method" unless the user is really, really sure the board is not tipped.

I also believe that the reason the conclusion that 4" tails are "necessary" is if one DOES start the measuring routine from the board end, that extra 1/2" under the roller at the start MAY be counteracting gravity just a hair enough to circumvent the the potential for lift from the brass roller at the beginning of the measuring routine, but is not a guarantee against that every time. Sort of a "false positive" for thinking a longer tail is "necessary" one could say. But, nevertheless, a longer tail does not hurt a thing. Centering the sled from the get-go and centering the carve when prompted will increase chances that indexing will be accurate. No real need for marking the sled center unless it brings comfort for the user (as an example, I mark my ShopBot spoilboard surface more for "visual comfort" than necessity too - all my SB projects are run with the X,Y Zero starting at the edge of the lower left corner...but that is the default standard for that type of machine setup...the CW is a bit different, i.e., a lot easier and automated). Now, one of the photos of the violin sled shows an unequal-width side rail - I believe that's mainly why the center mark was needed and why the indexing needed to be done "not from the center of the project" - the sled design is "off center". An off-center design can especially present problems for two-sided indexing, so the marks were probably used to help the user (LG) line up the material properly when flipped over. There are indeed valid reasons for deviating from factory recommendations when a jig or sled is built in a way that puts the carving/project area away from where it would normally be on a "plain" board. Otherwise, all normal principles apply and are really a whole lot less hoops to jump through for the user. No problem from me if one wants to make life a little more complicated than necessary! :)

[boogalee]

Hi Deolman

I have seen your post and thanks for replying.
I am reluctant to dis mantle a machine that I purchased for over $2000.00 (with accessories) and another $1200.00 (with accessories). I recently sent the machine to carvewright to upgrade to the carvetight spindle. The upgrade included inspecting and repairing (for a price) the machine. The reason I sent the machine to carvewright is I do not want to work on the machine but to use it to carve with. If the problem I am having is a machine problem I would not want carvewright to say you worked on it so the problem is yours. I am not lucky enough to be able to do a repair with minimum expense (that is why my friends call me snakebit).

Thank you again for your reply
Al B

[boogalee]

Hello Liquid


Sorry then I would not recommend Michael's system...

I Would go back to Al,s or my system as the defacto you will have a safer way to make sled parts and save money on wood. BTW your sled and MPC was fine you just need to run the machine in a sled mode.

Today I will try carving a new mcp and see what happens. I have a feeling that the problem is with the mcp. As you can see from a previous post (jpg) the carving came out fine but not centered. I also believe if the machine had a slipping problem it would not be off the same every time.
The thread you linked to has some nice info and when I get back building the sled I will refer back to it. If you remember the earlier post shows my sled with 4" ends and 1½" sides and one of the ends is partially carved. Ike indicated that he tried the carve and had the same problem.

Thanks
Al B

[mtylerfl]

Hi Al,

Please take a few minutes to read the article referenced below (perhaps you already have). It has a number of other tips and things to check to make sure everything is in order with your machine before starting your carve. I've got my fingers crossed for you to be successful and we are all hoping for a good report!
http://www.carvewright.com/downloads/tips/CarveWrightTips&Tricks_Jan_Feb10.pdf

[liquidguitars]

I still cannot recommend placing the sled on the end for the initial measuring routine...to much chance for board lift at the beginning of the routine (not just me saying that at all, but per Chris R at Carvewright and why that is emphasized in the Tracking Article - fewer Tech Support calls and fewer problems for customers!). A lot of potential for indexing being thrown off using that "end measuring method" unless the user is really, really sure the board is not tipped.



Funny Chris Lovchik and I came up with this solution" loading the sled off center" three years ago, but I guess you know better than me when it comes to sled work.

As someone that has used a printing press we always load the paper offset this a normal way to do it, Mine always mesures right with no tape so Chris R is wrong as your infomation.

[atauer]

Okay, okay, okay.

Enough with the trying to prove whose right and wrong guys. We are supposed to be a helpful forum of members, not members that are gonna drag each other down and talk down about each other.

There is nothing wrong with either way presented here. Michael's way works well for him, and LG's method works well for him. There is technically no right or wrong here. It is whatever works best for the individual user.

So, guys stop bashing each other. There isn't a need for it.

[liquidguitars]

Look at Capt Bruce's changed sled and MPC he's is on board as the way it works and happy...

[atauer]

again, it is whatever works for the end user. Just because it works well for you, doesn't mean its gonna work for everyone. Not everyone thinks the same way.

[Ike]

Al I sent you a PM

Ike

[liquidguitars]

If you look at Capt. Bruce's posts you can see first he basically followed MT's somewhat un logical way to design a MPC for a sled, the sled and MPC was all wrong in fact the Carvewright rejected the MPC...
after a few simple changes he was able to make a perfect fork and spoon this is what I call a happy ending.

[mtylerfl]

If you look at Capt. Bruce's posts you can see first he basically followed MT's somewhat un logical way to design a MPC for a sled, the sled and MPC was all wrong in fact the Carvewright rejected the MPC...
after a few simple changes he was able to make a perfect fork and spoon this is what I call a happy ending.

No, not true. You're getting mixed up. I would have designed the sled as shown in post #14 of that thread (your post, I believe). The original layout Bruce did was for a plain board...not a sled.

[boogalee]

Well the results are in.
I created a carve (6" X 8") by importing a jpg into designer. I centered the jpg on the board.

My design. Stay under rollers = no. Center on length.
49431

Then I carved Ike's mcp. Stay under rollers = no. Center on board. Actual board size = 6 1/16" X 16 1/16".

49433

Then I carved Michael T's mcp. stay under rollers = yes. Center on length. Actual board size = 7 X 17 1/6".

49434

Each carve was not centered on length. The jpg's are not the best but I think you can see What I'm Talking about.
I understand I can work around this problem but would have to calculate how much I am off if I were to use a sled. All carves are off by about the same amount.

Note: Ask Bud
I did not see your PM until today and I apoligize. If it is O.K. would tomorrow be convenient.

Thanks to all
Al B

[Ike]

Well the results are in.
I created a carve (6" X 8") by importing a jpg into designer. I centered the jpg on the board.

My design. Stay under rollers = no. Center on length.


49431

Then I carved Ike's mcp. Stay under rollers = no. Center on board. Actual board size = 6 1/16" X 16 1/16".

49433

Then I carved Michael T's mcp. stay under rollers = yes. Center on length. Actual board size = 7 X 17 1/6".

49434

Each carve was not centered on length. The jpg's are not the best but I think you can see What I'm Talking about.
I understand I work around this problem but would have to calculate how much I am off if I were to use a sled. All carves are off by about the same amount.

Note: Ask Bud
I did not see your PM until today and I apoligize. If it is O.K. would tomorrow be convenient.

Thanks to all
Al B


Al I enjoyed talking to you on the phone today! The mpc I made I didn't add any height to the letters, but I see it is too far to the left. I am sure you didn't get the scale to size prompt. All the carvings are too far to the left. I would try calling LHR liked we talked about, I would like to know why it is going to the left. As we talked I told you my C version CW is also off, not as much yours.

One thing I do remember that sometimes my "C" CW will be off. I noticed it when I made 4 double sided signs for a dentist. One sign was off by 3/8" , but on my mpc the "this" and square and clover is too far left.

I would try the bulls eye mpc to see how far off it is off center. Oh and I have the mpc set up to be made the way I make signs, you know my method ! Not posting it again to stay on topic before we see the " My dad can beat up your dad" posts......;)

Al if you don't mind if you call LHR give me a call and let me know what they said.

Ike

[bergerud]

I looks to me like your machine does not have the x offset right. The distance from the board sensor to the bit (about 1.5 inches) has to be part of the machines calculation to know where to carve. It looks like the machine has it wrong. Have you gone through the x calibration? I would first try restoring the calibration defaults. The default cannot be as far off as the results you are getting.

[boogalee]

Ike you have a PM

[boogalee]

Bergerud

I have gone thru the X calibration. I a earlier post I posted the measurement before and after the X calibration. When the machine measures the board (7 on the menu) it is very close to being correct (every time). I have carved quite a few test and they all seem to be off. I can agree that the bit has to be a certain distance from the sensor since it does not use a bit to measure. I don't know if this occured after sending the machine to LHR for the upgrade. I would hope they would have checked it. When I contacted LHR they said the roller and o ring were replaced so I am guessing that they at least measured a board.

Thanks for your reply
Al B

[Ike]

Ike you have a PM

Got it Al! Sorry I was making a sandwich! Berg yes Al has calibrated his X movement! LOl that was done 60 post ago! Now 61! Wow this is a long thread, if it stayed on topic it would be half!

Ike

[bergerud]

I am talking about the x calibration where the machine uses the 3/8 jointing bit to cut and measure slots. The manual x calibration only gets the length right not the x offset. It is an annoying procedure requiring cutting up a board. It seems to me that this offset is way off and I think the full blown calibration procedure is the only way to fix it. (I would try the reset all defaults first even though it will wipe out your manual calibration.)

[boogalee]

Bergerud

I just went to my shop and measured the distance from the front of the sensor plate to the center of the spindle and it is slightly more than 1".
I am kind of new to this so is this proceedure you are referring to in the manual and what is it called.

Thanks
Al B

[Ike]

I am talking about the x calibration where the machine uses the 3/8 jointing bit to cut and measure slots. The manual x calibration only gets the length right not the x offset. It is an annoying procedure requiring cutting up a board. It seems to me that this offset is way off and I think the full blown calibration procedure is the only way to fix it. (I would try the reset all defaults first even though it will wipe out your manual calibration.)

Interesting Berg, I was laughing on how long this thread had become and the twist and turns! I thought you were talking about the X calibration, but you have a great ideal! The thing is Al had the CT installed at LHR along with paying for a tune up so maybe something was missed. I told Al I like to think LHR will make it right as they have in the past.

I may have to try what you suggested for my CW thanks for posting it! LOl I never did so I need to find it in the manual too! Now you are not talking about the method using a 36" or longer board and measuring it to see how close it is to 36" and then adjust as needed?

Good job thanks!

Ike

[bergerud]

Sorry, it is calibration of the board sensor. It has been awhile since I did this. Below are the instructions from the calibration pdf.



Calibrating the Edge Sensor
From the Calibration menu use the up/down arrows or press “3” to begin the
calibration on the sensors that find the edge of the board. Load the board (at least
12” long by 4” wide) into the machine as you would normally, crank the head down,
and set the sliding plate (See Figure 1).
The machine will find the right and back edges of the board and the request the 3/8”
jointing bit. Open the cover, insert the bit and press ENTER. The machine will
measure the width of the board and will cut a slot on the back right edge of the board
(as seen facing the front of the machine). A sensor measurement is taken at the
edge of the slot and then small cuts are taken within the initial slot and measured
again.
The machine will then drop the bit into the central hole in the sliding plate and make a
series of small cuts on the edge of the board, re-measuring after each cut. Next the
bit will drop into the central hole in the squaring plate (on the keypad side) and make
a series of small cuts on that edge, re-measuring after each cut. If the machine
returns to the Calibration menu, it has successfully calibrated the board edge sensor.
If an error is displayed, repeat the process again with a new board.

[Ike]

Sorry, it is calibration of the board sensor. It has been awhile since I did this. Below are the instructions from the calibration pdf.



Calibrating the Edge Sensor
From the Calibration menu use the up/down arrows or press “3” to begin the
calibration on the sensors that find the edge of the board. Load the board (at least
12” long by 4” wide) into the machine as you would normally, crank the head down,
and set the sliding plate (See Figure 1).
The machine will find the right and back edges of the board and the request the 3/8”
jointing bit. Open the cover, insert the bit and press ENTER. The machine will
measure the width of the board and will cut a slot on the back right edge of the board
(as seen facing the front of the machine). A sensor measurement is taken at the
edge of the slot and then small cuts are taken within the initial slot and measured
again.
The machine will then drop the bit into the central hole in the sliding plate and make a
series of small cuts on the edge of the board, re-measuring after each cut. Next the
bit will drop into the central hole in the squaring plate (on the keypad side) and make
a series of small cuts on that edge, re-measuring after each cut. If the machine
returns to the Calibration menu, it has successfully calibrated the board edge sensor.
If an error is displayed, repeat the process again with a new board.

Berg very cool my friend! Al that may be! I learned something today!!!! I never needed to do this so I wasn't aware of the procedures. Now that is the way the forum is suppose to work! Thank you it may be a pain, but at least you don't have to tear apart the machine. Al has lots of scrap wood and a have some so the test if it fixes the the problem then it isn't a problem in my book!

Hey how is your chuck DC coming along? I am still interested, but want to make sure the extra weight won't affect any motors! Al I don't know if you have seen Berg's thread on his DC system? It looks great, but I am wanting to see if the motors mainly the Y will handle the extra weight! Berg's DC looks the best so far next to Floyd's system.

Again thank you for your input, it is great to see forum work the way it is suppose to!

Ike

[Digitalwoodshop]

Yes, Interesting Thread and I don't have anything useful to say but... Ike, Great Work !!!! I like your Logic in working this out...

Good Luck,

AL Who

[Ike]

Yes, Interesting Thread and I don't have anything useful to say but... Ike, Great Work !!!! I like your Logic in working this out...

Good Luck,

AL Who

Thanks Chief, but Bergerud I believe figured it out! Lol I tried!

Ike

[bergerud]

We have yet to see if it solves the problem! (I wonder how LHR calibrates these machines. Do they reset the defaults? If they hook up to the computer and reset the defaults, this could be a calibration error from when the machine was serviced??)

[boogalee]

Bergerud

This sounds like the most logical solution so far. I will try this in the morning and post the results. If it only takes a couple hundred board feet of wood I will be a happy camper or happier than a pig eating oh well never mind.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU in advance. Did I say thank you enough if not let me know and I will repost.

Al B

[Ike]

True it hasn't been solved yet, but I am thinking we are one step closer!

Al and I talked on the phone today and we discussed that too wondering after changing the chuck, belts and roller sensor did they check the calibration? I wonder what a tune up entails? I would think calibration would be part of the tune up? I mention to Al my newest machine version "C" is off too. I tried making some side boards for a friend's Jeep Scrambler and for the life of me I couldn't get an inside boarder to carve correctly! I calibrated the X movement and it helped, but is still off. Not enough to effect making signs, so I am interested if calibrating the board/ tracking roller will fix the problem?

This has been a long process if you look at the first few post they are a week old! I agree with Al your suggestion sounds good! I know Al is thinking this too, where were you a week ago lol! Just kidding! Well except for off topic posts this has been a very interesting and teaching thread! I learned a lot and even learned something from the non topic post! Well more confirming that is!

Al I apologize for my off topic posts I hope I help a little, well at least we know it is not so much the mpc and the X calibration is good!

Ike

PS let us know what happens tomorrow! Good night!

[mtylerfl]

Hi Al B,

I am so glad that everyone seems to have "cooled off" and we are back to normal!

Al, great job on the test carves and your photos. Yes, somethings seems to be off on your x-axis alright. One thing I have not seen mentioned yet is to remove the O-ring entirely, then doing another test carve. There is a remote possibility that the O-ring is making contact with the traction belt during the initial measuring process and throwing off the x-calibration data. Before you try that, you may want to call LHR Tech and ask if they have any other suggestions. If/when you do try another carve, please use the MPC and board dimensions I provided. This is the one that will yield the most accurate test result and you won't have to worry about scaling prompts, etc. that can skew your test.

Please keep us posted on your progress!

[mtylerfl]

Al B,

I just saw where the old calibration test instructions were suggested by bergerud...I'm not sure that particular method still applies with the newer versions of the software. There is a new calibration routine that was introduced and explained in the Tips & Tricks article about maintaining accurate board tracking. When you call LHR, please ask them if the "old" method still works or if you need to use the "new" method. (and please let us know what they say - or I call them several times a week for all kinds of things - I could ask for you, if you wish)

EDIT: I went ahead and Skyped LHR on my "hotline" connection to ask about the "old" and "new" calibration procedures. Too early for their workday at the moment, but will pass along the info when they've had a chance to respond.

[bergerud]

The calibration procedure I posted was from the current pdf on the Carvewright website. Is there something newer? In the tips and tricks document you refer to, I see excerpts from the same pdf, although I did not see the excerpt on calibrating the edge sensor. (I forgot to check, but did the minus sign mistake in the instructions for manual x calibration get corrected? I posted a formula sometime ago to compute the x correction. )

[mtylerfl]

The calibration procedure I posted was from the current pdf on the Carvewright website. Is there something newer? In the tips and tricks document you refer to, I see excerpts from the same pdf, although I did not see the excerpt on calibrating the edge sensor. (I forgot to check, but did the minus sign mistake in the instructions for manual x calibration get corrected? I posted a formula sometime ago to compute the x correction. )

Not sure, bergerud. At the time the article was compiled, the info was contributed by CarveWright engineers and also reviewed by the chief programmer (this is standard procedure for the last 5 years for nearly all the info I share and write about in the Tips pdf's, forum and videos, etc.).

The calibration instructions were sent to me directly by Chris Rawls - the head hardware engineer at CarveWright. Then he gave me a follow-up call and we spent about 30 minutes going over the entire procedure. It was at that time he mentioned this new method superceeded the old one and this was what was the version to be included in the Tracking article. Now, as far as the "minus sign mistake" - I will ask Chris about it and see what's up with that. I ran through the new cal process on one of my machines way back when the article was being written (and before CW approved it for release), and I don't recall running into any problem.

As long as we're sort of on the topic here, I'll take a brief moment to help clarify a couple things. I know that several of my close friends on this forum know this already, but methods and procedures I share about here and in the Tips & Tricks series are derived directly from the programmers, techs and indeed, the inventor of the CW machine. These are not "my" methods or recommendations alone. I have a very close working partnership/relationship with LHR and we do our best to verify any "new" ideas presented by users on the forum to make sure they are "workable and sensible" for the user audience at large. The common goal we all have is to reduce or eliminate as much room for user-error as possible so that these "miracle machines" can be enjoyed as intended.

I was just Skyped from LHR as I'm writing this...I should be hearing from Chris Rawls sometime today and I'll pass along any info received.

[lynnfrwd]

Re-calibration of machine when in for CarveTight Service Upgrade:
We run multiple tests; multiple times on each machine that comes in for this upgrade.

If the machine passes all of the tests within a certain margin - that means there is nothing to re-calibrate.

If any of those tests are out of margin (and I don't know what that margin is, but the repair techs do), then it is recalibrated and tested again and again until it passes.

[bergerud]

We are just trying to determine what is wrong with Boogalee's machine. Was the machine re-calibrated at LHR? And if so, is it possible that a mistake was made? Something I would really like to know which may or may not be important here is: does the LHR re-calibration change the defaults?

[mtylerfl]

We are just trying to determine what is wrong with Boogalee's machine. Was the machine re-calibrated at LHR? And if so, is it possible that a mistake was made? Something I would really like to know which may or may not be important here is: does the LHR re-calibration change the defaults?

Hi bergerud,

Still waiting to hear from Chris, so I/we don't know the answer to that and other questions yet. My first thought is that the calibration isn't really the problem since the off-center in x is occuring with some regularity at what appears to be the one end and everything else seems to be positioned correctly in relation to each other. But I could be all wet on that opinion. It seems the x-axis discrepency is "one-sided" perhaps occuring at the start of the measurement routine. Quite puzzling at the moment.

[liquidguitars]

These are not "my" methods or recommendations alone.



I have to disagree, I think MT try's his best but has little experence on sled building, writing the "Tips and tricks" clearly does not make you a expert as demonstrated.

I would avoid his MPC if your running a sled and then look at Capt. Bruce's thread.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthr...-Plate-Message (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19502-Sliding-Plate-Message)

[mtylerfl]

I have to disagree, I think MT try's his best but has little experence on sled building, writing the "Tips and tricks" clearly does not make you a expert as demonstrated.

I would avoid his MPC if your running a sled and then look at Capt. Bruce's thread.

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthr...-Plate-Message (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?19502-Sliding-Plate-Message)

Let's not go that direction again!:)

[mtylerfl]

Just got a Skype from LHR...apparently Chris R is working directly with Al B today. Excellent news and info/procedure will now be coming straight from the source with no "middlemen"! Much better that way.

Oh, it is confirmed that the +/- were reversed in those new calibration instructions. I'll make those corrections to the PDF and be sending the corrected copy to LHR.

[bergerud]

I guess that means we may not find out what was wrong. But good news, the machine will get fixed and this thread from hell will end!

[mtylerfl]

I guess that means we may not find out what was wrong. But good news, the machine will get fixed and this thread from hell will end!

Amen to that! I can peel the target off my back for awhile!

[Ike]

I give up Al posting anything in open forum, I will PM or we can talk on the phone again. Now my latest mpc will not yield accuracy! Guess you can't cut the board to exactly 8" or if you want add 7" or so or even use your sled? Forgive me for thinking a centered square with a "X" and a drill hole in the center and 5 inches on each side of square would tell you how far off center it is and what directions it is off. I hope LHR does solve your problems and share the results and I will fix my "C" machine

Ike

[mtylerfl]

The centered X mpc is ideal for a test (I just peeked at it). No sense carving another dog, now that you mention it - you're probably tired of looking at it by now. Besides, the X mpc is a lot faster carve, too!

[liquidguitars]

The centered X mpc is ideal for a test (I just peeked at it). No sense carving another dog, now that you mention it - you're probably tired of looking at it by now. Besides, the X mpc is a lot faster carve, too!

I was thinking the same thing about Ike's Center MPC.... and looks like he could run it in his sled 2.

[Ike]

I was thinking the same thing about Ike's Center MPC.... and looks like he could run it in his sled 2.

Thank you Brandon! I appreciate it you made me smile! :D

Ike

[boogalee]

Update on my machine

Today Carvewright emailed me a configration file which I ran on my computer and it uploads to the memory card. Then I ran it on the machine. Next I did the firmware upgrade. I ran a project on a board that measures 4 ½" X 12 ½" in designer the board was 4" X 12". The project was a 2" square. After running the project the square was only off by 1/128" (I think I can live with that. LOL)

I would like to thank everyone for their input and help. It has been a experience and I learned a lot. I am now a expert at measuring boards. I can build a proper sled. I can center a carving on a board and many more things.

Thanks again
The happy camper
Al B

[mtylerfl]

Update on my machine

Today Carvewright emailed me a configration file which I ran on my computer and it uploads to the memory card. Then I ran it on the machine. Next I did the firmware upgrade. I ran a project on a board that measures 4 ½" X 12 ½" in designer the board was 4" X 12". The project was a 2" square. After running the project the square was only off by 1/128" (I think I can live with that. LOL)

I would like to thank everyone for their input and help. It has been a experience and I learned a lot. I am now a expert at measuring boards. I can build a proper sled. I can center a carving on a board and many more things.

Thanks again
The happy camper
Al B

Excellent news, Al! Now get busy enjoying your machine!:)

[liquidguitars]

I ran a project on a board that measures 4 ½" X 12 ½" in designer the board was 4" X 12". The project was a 2" square. After running the project the square was only off by 1/128" (I think I can live with that. LOL)



Very good, this is the way I like setup my projects, I use 3/4 sled bottom that's around 1/2" bigger overall than the MPC in x and y. As a note: This is why you will see that my sleds look offset but that just the extra 1/2 wood.

Remember to place the warp of the bottom pointing down.

[bergerud]

This is not fair. We do not get to know what was wrong. I think, with the time and effort some of the forum members put into trouble shooting for LHR's customers, they deserve to know what was, in the end, wrong. In situations like this, I would like LHR to bring a close to the thread by explaining what the problem was and how it was fixed. How else are we to help others in the future?

[liquidguitars]

Let me recap for you, sounds like he re calibrated his system via a firmware bat file then upgraded the firmware and ran the project based on LHR recommendations with the results and tolerances of 1/128".

[bergerud]

I can make theories also. I assume that the x offset default was set so far off that the board sensor calibration procedure failed. The default had to be reset by the batch file.

But that is not the point. I wish that LHR could show us the courtesy of explaining what was wrong and how it was fixed.

[liquidguitars]

I can make theories also. what are you talking about? now LHR is just fixed his issue, if you like more info about the Bat file I can help you.

[lynnfrwd]

Hold onto your horses...an explanation is forthcoming...

The techs and head engineer that worked on this issue with Al are not sitting on the forum all day. NONE of them have even seen this.

This whole thread has been full of ALL KINDS OF NASTY!!

This whole forum and its members has had a reputation of people helping people and I've often heard IT is the reason someone decides to go with CarveWright over other systems. I've even seen comments posted on other forums about what a great group it is over here.

Please, take a moment before you post and stop being so OFFENSIVE to everyone and stop being so DEFENSIVE with everything said.

[liquidguitars]

I assume that the x offset default was set so far off that the board sensor calibration procedure failed.

A lot of things can give a x error, a rolled up belt like Al said, shifting belts hitting the Aux roller why we cut off a little or do what you did with steel washers , one is the worn out rubber under the AUX roller like Ike said, one is table pressure, a miss read due to the way the sled is handled by loading it in the center or using dark wood like mahogany then loading the sled in center, not testing the table pressure by lifting the board, bad calibration, and damaged warped or twisted wood.

[bergerud]

Thank you Connie. I look forward to learning more about calibration.

[crawls]

The x-offset, with respect to the board sensor, was off in Al's calibration file. We sent Al a default calibration which was derived from averaging actual calibration data. The x offset is the distance, in x encoders, from the point the board sensor detects the edge to the tip of the bit. Basically, it shifts the edge of the board from under the board sensor to the bit. This offset is calculated during calibration by measuring an edge with the board sensor and then going back and touching the edge. We do this in both directions to negate backlash and off multiple faces so that we can average the readings. We are not sure why Al's calibration file was so far off, but since the board tracking sensor (brass wheel) corrects the x-data during the calibration routine, I'm sure it was a slip of the brass roller with respect to the cal plate. The reason for the slip, while unknown, is the same reasons you have slips, head pressure, belts rolled up, missing damper, and so on.

[cnsranch]

Brass roller - AHA!

AW would be so proud :cool:

[henry1]

Hold onto your horses...an explanation is forthcoming...

The techs and head engineer that worked on this issue with Al are not sitting on the forum all day. NONE of them have even seen this.

This whole thread has been full of ALL KINDS OF NASTY!!

This whole forum and its members has had a reputation of people helping people and I've often heard IT is the reason someone decides to go with CarveWright over other systems. I've even seen comments posted on other forums about what a great group it is over here.

Please, take a moment before you post and stop being so OFFENSIVE to everyone and stop being so DEFENSIVE with everything said.
Here Here I have to agree

[liquidguitars]

I like to also address some misleading statements from MT about my violin sleds:


Again...3.5" tails or 4" tails does not matter...either will work.

Yes it does matter 4” tails are safer and more reliable and if you load your board offset for a ton of good reason you have more room to setup the jig to pre carve.


MT: I also believe that the reason the conclusion that 4" tails are "necessary" is if one DOES start the measuring routine from the board end, that extra 1/2" under the roller at the start MAY be counteracting gravity just a hair enough to circumvent the the potential for lift from the brass roller at the beginning of the measuring routine, but is not a guarantee against that every time. Sort of a "false positive" for thinking a longer tail is "necessary" one could say.

Not a false positive but a working solution designed by myself and the designer of the Carvewright your attempt to make it look shady is wrong.



Centering the sled from the get-go and centering the carve when prompted will increase chances that indexing will be accurate. No real need for marking the sled center unless it brings comfort for the user (as an example, I mark my Shop Bot spoilboard surface more for "visual comfort" than necessity too - all my SB projects are run with the X,Y Zero starting at the edge of the lower left corner...but that is the default standard for that type of machine


Senior member like Al and I prefer to “place on end and "Place on corner" like the Shop Bot and not center as a more accurate way to run the projects.
It's no wonder we get the heat at time for not acting in a fashion more industrial and follow Cad Cam layout Basics. As someone that took mechanical drafting with a t square of all things “place on end " or "place on corner" makes a lot more sense and will save a few bits and wood when sledding a project.


"not from the center of the project" - the sled design is "off center". An off-center design can especially present problems for two-sided indexing, so the marks were probably used to help the user (LG) line up the material properly when flipped over. There are indeed valid reasons for deviating from factory recommendations when a jig or sled is built in a way that puts the carving/project area away from where it would normally be on a "plain" board.


This system that MT talks of was designed by myself and the designer of the Carvewright so I must not be understanding why its deviating from anything but I will tell Chris that we are not in compliance with LHR. :)

Not that i need to explain but the center marks are for running more than two machines at a time centering a sled at times can give you a false positive but not if you use “ place on end” or “ Place on corner”


Otherwise, all normal principles apply and are really a whole lot less hoops to jump through for the user. No problem from me if one wants to make life a little more complicated than necessary!

I feel the complications are inherited in not understanding the difference between a sled layout and a simple single board the two are not the same.

[lynnfrwd]

Obviously, you two are not building sleds for the same things. Obviously, your own methods work for you.

NOW STOP IT! Agree to disagree, or pick up you glove and go home.

I was going to close this thread, but was asked to leave it open for comments to the OP's issue and solution. If you don't have any regarding that, please don't post.

[bergerud]

Thank you for the explanation crawls.

Was the normal board sensor calibration procedure (with the 3/8 jointing bit) unable to correct the offset?

We need to hear more from you guys. The more we understand the machine and its processes, the more we can help ourselves and others. We need to know when we get it right and, more importantly, when we get it wrong. There is nothing more frustrating to someone with problems than misinformation.

[lynnfrwd]

crawls has been here since the "hammering a machine prototype out in the garage" days. He has 13 posts, so far, and needless to say, I think over half of those included a "Do I have too?" question to which I responded...."Yes, you have to!" Send me your question and I will try to get an answer. I will then try to spit it out and make sense of what he said.

[boogalee]

Bergerud

I did run the board sensor calibration procedure (with the 3/8 jointing bit) twice. I used 2 - 6" X 12½" boards. On the first run the machine cut a slot on the far side (from the keypad) and then gave a error. As per your instructions I was going to run it again but the machine would not allow me to select 0 (option). It was locked out but I could select other numbers (1 project menu). I turned the machine off (I learned that in the computer business. When all else fails reboot.). I then ran it again and the same thing happened, hence the call to tech support.
I hope I explained it so everyone can understand.

Al B

[bergerud]

My question was do with my suggestion to boogalee. I suggested that he run the board sensor calibration procedure. That should have fixed his x offset. I do not know whether he tried it or not. I was worried when I suggested it that his offset might have been too large for the procedure to correct. I have noted before that values can only be changed within a small range of the defaults. Now I hear that "outside" intervention was used to change the offset.

My question is: Was the outside intervention necessary because the normal board sensor calibration procedure could not change the large offset?

Edit: Ok now I know he tried it.

[bergerud]

Ok, I guess that answers the question. No need to bother crawls. Let him be. I do think we need a forum friendly tech to get more involved when we get stuck.

Boogalee, I am glad your machine is finally centered. Crawls said they made up an average number for your default. Someday you may want to run that board sensor calibration to fine tune.

[liquidguitars]

Thats right if i understand it when i ran one but i not sure if it does any more than just resets it to factory's defaults as when i was done the cal was set back to the original.

[Ike]

Al, I am glad you finally have a true machine! Sorry my hilly billy hook up also known as internet was out all day until now. It had to be more a phone thing too my phone was hit and miss too all day! I have DSL, still is a hillbilly hook up! Oh so were our cell phones were down.

I hope you took notes! I can't wait to hear the fix so I can fix mine! I don't quite understand what was exactly done? Give me a call!

Ike

Wow I just saw on the news a hurricane type wind storm went through Southern Ca. and Utah. I wonder if that had anything to do with my DSL? Brandon did you have any damage?

[liquidguitars]

I did run the board sensor calibration procedure (with the 3/8 jointing bit) twice. I used 2 - 6" X 12½" boards. On the first run the machine cut a slot on the far side (from the keypad) and then gave a error. As per your instructions I was going to run it again but the machine would not allow me to select 0 (option). It was locked out but I could select other numbers (1 project menu). I turned the machine off (I learned that in the computer business. When all else fails reboot.). I then ran it again and the same thing happened, hence the call to tech support.
I hope I explained it so everyone can understand.

Al B

I was just reading this and I think he must of used the old Cal Belt program firmware, in turn it set the factory's cal off as a fail. With the firmware upgrade the new cal belt will be available when needed.

[boogalee]

bergerud
You have a PM.

Al B

[liquidguitars]

Brandon did you have any damage?

We are a little above the storm today but yesterday it was strong gusts of cold...

[boogalee]

Ike
I can't call you your phones don't work:D. I have tried twice today.

Al B

[Ike]

Ike
I can't call you your phones don't work:D. I have tried twice today.

Al B

I sent a PM!

[Ike]

We are a little above the storm today but yesterday it was strong gusts of cold...

Glad to here no problems with the wind! I watched KTLA and it showed a gas station destroyed by a tree! Up in here in Northern Ca. The wind has been blowing, but it always blows and it always cold!

Ike

[DocWheeler]

Sorry I got here late as I wish to add my thoughts.

The 3.5" or 4" debate is like trying to determine if we should be talking about what works best for us or what is "better".

1. Since the amount of sled under the rollers is determined by where the "Carving" is located rather than the end of the virtual board, even the 3.5" "tail" gives about 3.75" of REAL distance between the bit and the end of the sled. Therefore the argument that the sled is almost out from under the rollers if the END OF THE VIRTUAL BOARD is 3.5" from the end of the sled is false. The true measurement (for support issues) is from the end of sled to the center of the bit in the actual carve. The firmware checks for 3.5" from the ends of the virtual board, not the carved area!

2. Since there are many ways to anchor the carved material in sled, making the sled with ANY SET LENGTH fillers causes space to lost inside of the sled for most methods of attachment. The REQUIRED tail length is only about 1.25" for "X" dimension sensor reading.

If you use a sled for multiple carvings of the same thing, like LG, then having solid tails may work well especially if the carved material is not fastened on the ends. If you have observed his sled and carved material, they seem designed to be a "snug-fit" so that method works well for him.

For me, that method does not work well as I do not pre-cut my lumber to strict tolerances AND I usually fasten the board down to the sled with screws and washers catching a curf cut in the ends of the board. So, my carved board is always about an inch longer that the carved area. If there was a solid block covering the first four inches, my carve would be at least 5.5" from the end making the sled longer and heaver than needed plus added "X" movement/wear.

There is no right and wrong here if it works! To argue over this seems to be a destraction and point of confusion to new users.
If anyone feels that having 5" tails is best for them, fine, as long as they do not try to convince others that is is either necessary or "better".

[liquidguitars]

1. Since the amount of sled under the rollers is determined by where the "Carving" is located rather than the end of the virtual board, even the 3.5" "tail" gives about 3.75" of REAL distance between the bit and the end of the sled. Therefore the argument that the sled is almost out from under the rollers if the END OF THE VIRTUAL BOARD is 3.5" from the end of the sled is false. The true measurement (for support issues) is from the end of sled to the center of the bit in the actual carve. The firmware checks for 3.5" from the ends of the virtual board, not the carved area!

Hi Doc, I think if you use like Al and I " keep the same" (1) "place on end" or "place on corner" all the cuts exactly follows the MPC this way if i tell Designer to make a 4" space thats what I get WYSIWYG a 4" space. The firmware point of veiw is now indifferent. the size argument is not really a argument but a different way of building things!

[DocWheeler]

Brandon,

I understand that, and if all my projects turned out like some of yours that I've seen, I'd use that set-up.
My point is that the 3.5" or 4" issue seems to have escalated into something that was confusing people rather than helping them.

There are many ways to make it work well without being married to some fixed set of beliefs.
Woldn't you agree that 4.25" would work just as well as 4"?

[liquidguitars]

Woldn't you agree that 4.25" would work just as well as 4"?

Yes I sure would! I agree.

[Deolman]

Thank you lynnfwrd for not locking the thread. Some of this stuff is actually penetrating my thick skull. I realize this is not the greatest of presentations but it has got my mind to working. Please keep the suggestions coming guys. Just remember we are all in the same boat so to speak. (It ain't the Titanic either!)