About done with the CC!

[ibewiggin]

Ok, so I have my new Compucarve, and this time I bought a brand new one. I assure you if this is not covered under warranty I am going to smash them into a million pieces. Anyways, does anyone have any idea what would cause the flex shaft outside cover to peal off? This is only my fourth or fifth carving, and i have kept the shaft lubricated more than directed, as I have already taken it out twice. The machine was working fine for two hours. I was called away for a few hours for an emergency, I came back to find this. Please help, I can not take this anymore. I am sure you guys recall my first machine, which had EVERY problem possible. So I followed everyones advice and went brand new. Picture is attached.

[dbfletcher]

I'm sure you don't want to hear this.. but too much lube is just as bad as not enough. Did you happen to take any temperature measurements after you lubed it (during a carve)? It looks to me as it overheated and melted. But there are others on here with much more experience than myself in these areas.

[ibewiggin]

I never actually took the temperature, but did check it by touching it. I even checked it before I had to leave. When I lubricated it I cleaned it and then lubed it as per recomendation, so it should not have been ober lubricated.

[lawrence]

Doug nailed it-- the pic is small but it looks like you fried it with overheating. When you lubed the machine, did you let it drip dry before putting it back in/did you use the chain lube with moly?

Also, I've only lubed my machine twice in 2 years and dozens and dozens of hours of machining-it really shouldn't need to be messed with much. As I'm in Tucson, the temp is ALWAYS hot so I actually take an additional precaution and usually run a fan on the exterior blowing directly on the flex shaft to air cool it a bit, though I'm not sure this is even necessary as my flexshaft never gets overly warm (95-113 depending on location is pretty normal for my flexshaft in 90+ degree weather) I check my flexshaft temperature every 15 minutes or so during long carves (usually just with my hand to feel for hot spots).

I'm sorry about your emergency-keep in mind that if you ever need to leave your machine for a while, you can press the stop button to act as a pause and then carry on when you can attend it again- though I know this is small comfort now.

Man I hope things work out for you,
Lawrence

[lawrence]

we were all typing at the same time-- I'd say the point is well made twice

[ibewiggin]

I used liquid wrench chain lube with Moly. I believe I saw it recomended somewhere on here. I let all the excess run off after it soaked, plus I cleaned well before applying new lubrication. I have made one carve since lubing it, and it ran for two hours with out getting before I left too. With as many problems I had with the other machine, I thought that making sure to keep everything super clean and smooth would be best. My wife was actually pretty upset that I bought another machine to begin with, she is gonna be fuming now! I don't know. And if it is not going to be covered........

[dbfletcher]

we were all typing at the same time-- I'd say the point is well made twice

Agreed! Ike always does get a little paranoid about posting similar info. Sometimes it is very helpful to have the same thing worded several different ways. I say leave the posts Ike!

[dbfletcher]

I used liquid wrench chain lube with Moly. I believe I saw it recomended somewhere on here. I let all the excess run off after it soaked, plus I cleaned well before applying new lubrication. I have made one carve since lubing it, and it ran for two hours with out getting before I left too. With as many problems I had with the other machine, I thought that making sure to keep everything super clean and smooth would be best. My wife was actually pretty upset that I bought another machine to begin with, she is gonna be fuming now! I don't know. And if it is not going to be covered........

Did you purchase it from Sears? I think they warranty terms are (or at least used to be) a little different from LHR's. My first three machines I took back to Sears... with some of the issues quite possible being attributed to new pilot error. But Sears took them all back no questions asked in exchange for a new machine. It might be something to look in to. How long have you had the new CC?

[Ike]

Too late, that is why I do not post much anymore.... Anyway I sent a PM to you ibewiggin. Liquid wrench is too thin and if you have a Napa Auto they carry Moly lube in a tube. It is thick and I apply it let it soak and wipe and re-install. Cleaning the flex to me seems harmful since you clean out lube in the areas lube is well set. I have a parts machine and I cut a section of my flex housing and cut out the burnt section of my other machine flex and pieced in the housing and used black tape and wrapped well and have not had a problem since.

Other wise you will need to buy a new flex shaft, you might try to find something compatible say from an old dremel shaft etc. Here is a thought fuel hose is designed to withstand heat it may work as a patch if you don't want to buy a new flex? I know about an unhappy wife! Fortunately I pretty much figured out the machine and mostly make signs I have not had any issues with my two CW

Ike

[ibewiggin]

Nope, ordered it from LHR. Guess I will try and convice the wife to get me a flex shaft for Christmas now. Thanks for all the help again.

[ibewiggin]

Oh, and as for how long I have had it. Two months, 27hrs and 39min cut time. Not much. I think my other machine has like 50hrs on it, and I had to replace that one.

[Ike]

Oh, and as for how long I have had it. Two months, 27hrs and 39min cut time. Not much. I think my other machine has like 50hrs on it, and I had to replace that one.
Check out this post http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?16726-Burnt-My-Flex-Shaft-Up-Today&highlight=liquid+wrench


Seems others have used LW with Moly and some Moly lube made by LW. Myself I have read more bad about LW w/moly then good!

[ibewiggin]

Hmmm...bad flexshafts?

[Ike]

Hmmm...bad flexshafts?


Not sure being a bad flex, then bad lube? A kink in the flex will also overheat, but if the flex was bad from the factory then it should have overheated sooner. Well that is my thoughts!

Ike

[ibewiggin]

Yeah, but I followed the same procedure as the other machine. That is the only part that did not fail on the other machine. I am fairly certain that I did not kink the shaft either. I will say although it did not fail sooner, it did seem to run hotter that the old machine, not that hot but hotter. I guess it does not really matter cause I highly doubt they would replace it either way. I will be changing the lube I use regardless, bettter safe than sorry. It is just frustrating, I thought that my new machine would be a lot less trouble, and I made sure to buy the warranty, yet it broke, and is not covered just as before. I will get over though.

[ibewiggin]

Graspping at straws..... I guess I don't want it to be my fault.

[ibewiggin]

So if the Moly is indeed too thin, do I need to worry about the CT?

[bergerud]

We have heard this story many times now. Some flex shafts last forever barely even getting warm (mine for example, 500+ hours) and others burn up right out of the box. What can the difference be? Is it a quality control problem in the manufacturing? I think it must be. I do not think this is ibewiggin's fault.

I just had a thought:

Heat comes from the internal friction of the spring steel strands rubbing on each other (due to the curve in the cable). The molybdenum disulfide is supposed to penetrate the cable and plate onto the strands providing a protective, slippery coating between them. (I think thinner is better.) In order for this process to work, there must be some clearance between the strands. I wonder if some of these flex cables have layers which are wound too tight from the factory. If the cable was wound too tight, there would be large forces between some of the strands when the cable is bent. Lubrication, if it could get between these strands, would not stay there long. These cables would be destined to burn right from the factory.

To test this theory, one would need to compare new cables to see if some were stiffer than others. How tight they bend indicates how much clearance there is between the strands.

This is just a theory. Unfortunately, I think only LHR can really test it.

(ibewiggin: this may not be a good test since your flex shaft has been damaged, but, how tight of a circle can you bend it into? Can you get it into a coffee can?)

[mtylerfl]

A problem of this type can be caused by one end or the other not being fully seated in either the top Hat or the Cut Motor. This will lead to the flexshaft core rubbing against the inside of the sheath and destroying it from friction overheating. If the flex shaft is properly lubed (Chain Lube with Moly), I do not see how the flex could overheat. I used to brag that I have lubed the flexshafts on both my machines ONCE in over four years. I have to modify that statement...I did re-lube one of the flexshafts recently, as I noticed a slight rise in temp during a project run (very slight, I might add).

Just to review the procedure...remove the flexshaft core and place it on a pad of newspaper, in the "fold" of the newspaper. Squirt the Chain Lube with Moly over the entire shaft and allow it to "puddle" slightly in the "fold". Rotate the flexshaft a few times in the "puddle" over the course of about 30 minutes to an hour. Wipe it off with a rag and hang it up to "drip" (I used a clothspin and a scrap wire to hang the flexshaft core... got one or two drips after about an hour of hanging, is all). Lightly wipe off the flexshaft core again, then reinsert it into the sheath, making absolutely sure the core engages fully into the Cut Motor. "Snap" the sheath/core back into the Top Hat fully (I use a piece of white paper under the square hole and peer through the Top Hat to make sure the hole is lined up with the square core-end).

It is not necessary to "soak" the flexshaft core in a plastic bag, coffee can or any other container for any length of time. The Chain Lube w/Moly spray penetrates the spring just fine - in fact, soaking a lengthy period may actually contribute to overlubrication which, as we all know, can/will seep into the spindle bearings, wash away/dilute the grease that lubricates them and lead to bearing failure.

Sorry this is all "after the fact" of the damage to your flexshaft, but perhaps this will be helpful for you in the future. I would recommend purchasing a new one, rather than trying to patch together the old one (unfortunately).

[gregsolano]

I have to agree I had one cable which I properly lubed with liquid wrench with moly fail quickly and suddenly overheating and causing damage to the plastic cover. Then I had another which has gone on and on for almost a year now with never any over heating or problems. I have lubed them both the same with the same moly. I put them in a can with allowing the cable to curve and take in the moly then I wipe down and make sure there is not excess dripping into the truck and like I said one worked with no problems and the other failed quickly. I think it is an issue with certain cables as well.

[mtylerfl]

I have to agree I had one cable which I properly lubed with liquid wrench with moly fail quickly and suddenly overheating and causing damage to the plastic cover. Then I had another which has gone on and on for almost a year now with never any over heating or problems. I have lubed them both the same with the same moly. I put them in a can with allowing the cable to curve and take in the moly then I wipe down and make sure there is not excess dripping into the truck and like I said one worked with no problems and the other failed quickly. I think it is an issue with certain cables as well.

Hi Greg,

Well, I suppose anything is possible, but I think a defective cable is probably a distant and least likely scenario. In any case, we will never be able to know for sure. I guess the best course of action is to simply replace the flexshaft and get back in the saddle. I doubt it will happen again if following lube and installation procedures carefully.

[al2888dj]

thanks to Chris been using crane cam lube -the best -been 2 years no heat here 90-95 deg.

[bergerud]

Sorry to disagree, but I am starting to think all flex shafts are not equal. We have all been so terrorized by the fear of flex shaft burn up that we have become obsessive lubricators. I made a copper tube coil to lube my flex shaft. On the other hand, Al says he just puts a dab on the center of the shaft once in a while. This makes me wonder if lubrication is not really as crucial as we think. That moly stuff lasts a long time on a good flex shaft. Remember the quality control problems with the old QC? Some lasted forever and some flew apart right out of the box. I think we have to establish whether we have the same behavior here or not. If flex shafts either over heat right away or last a long time, then, we have to conclude that the flex shafts which overheat are defective. Whether they are wound to tight or the steel is too soft or for whatever reason, these are defective. The whole lubrication thing may just be a red herring.

The important question here is: Of all flex shafts which fail, do most of them fail right away.

[Ike]

So if the Moly is indeed too thin, do I need to worry about the CT?
Moly itself is not too thin, the Moly I use comes in a tube and is a paste. I have heard Liquid Wrench to be too thin and they have changed the properties. Older LW must of worked fine. I have used spray Moly chain lube and not chain lube with Moly. It was made by RS something sorry I can't remember. I have always laid my flex on a piece of cardboard and applied the Moly and rubbed in with my fingers. I never cleaned off the old lube unless I drop the flex and it was dirty. As I said all the lube I have used has been thick, the spray was more like foam.

The CT on my machine ran hot during the first carve and I mean hot! I called LHR and was told it will during break in. Well iit still runs hot to me, but still works!

Try my suggestion it has worked for me!

Ike

[Ike]

A problem of this type can be caused by one end or the other not being fully seated in either the top Hat or the Cut Motor. This will lead to the flexshaft core rubbing against the inside of the sheath and destroying it from friction overheating. If the flex shaft is properly lubed (Chain Lube with Moly), I do not see how the flex could overheat. I used to brag that I have lubed the flexshafts on both my machines ONCE in over four years. I have to modify that statement...I did re-lube one of the flexshafts recently, as I noticed a slight rise in temp during a project run (very slight, I might add).

Just to review the procedure...remove the flexshaft core and place it on a pad of newspaper, in the "fold" of the newspaper. Squirt the Chain Lube with Moly over the entire shaft and allow it to "puddle" slightly in the "fold". Rotate the flexshaft a few times in the "puddle" over the course of about 30 minutes to an hour. Wipe it off with a rag and hang it up to "drip" (I used a clothspin and a scrap wire to hang the flexshaft core... got one or two drips after about an hour of hanging, is all). Lightly wipe off the flexshaft core again, then reinsert it into the sheath, making absolutely sure the core engages fully into the Cut Motor. "Snap" the sheath/core back into the Top Hat fully (I use a piece of white paper under the square hole and peer through the Top Hat to make sure the hole is lined up with the square core-end).

It is not necessary to "soak" the flexshaft core in a plastic bag, coffee can or any other container for any length of time. The Chain Lube w/Moly spray penetrates the spring just fine - in fact, soaking a lengthy period may actually contribute to overlubrication which, as we all know, can/will seep into the spindle bearings, wash away/dilute the grease that lubricates them and lead to bearing failure.

Sorry this is all "after the fact" of the damage to your flexshaft, but perhaps this will be helpful for you in the future. I would recommend purchasing a new one, rather than trying to patch together the old one (unfortunately).
Michael I basically do the same to lube my flex, but use cardboard. I would be afraid paper would get into the flex and yes wipe it. Depending on the size of the burnt housing I did in fact take another burnt housing and cutting a piece larger then the burnt area, then overlapping the new piece. I cut through both the patch and burnt housing for a perfect fit. Then using black tape, I taped the whole area and beyond.

It has been like this for several years without an issue! It was suppose to be a temporary fix, but if it works and saves me money......why not!!!! ibewiggin is in the hot house with his wife and I was just trying to help marriage! Not to mention a pocket book, I know I don't have $80.00 for a new flex! Lol I am still using the screw fix for my cover!

Ike

[ibewiggin]

I guess my concern now is IF I did something wrong, to much lube or what not. Do I need to worry about the CT? Is there a good way to ensure there is no Chain lube in it. I dont want anymore problems, it is getting rediculous.

[dbfletcher]

Take the tophat off and make sure there is no lube that seeped down from the flex shaft. (again.. i guess im guessing as I don't have a CT and I am just assuming it still exist on the CT versions) If you find any, wipe it off and hope it didnt get down in to the ceramic bearings.

Pictures courtesy of c6craig

[lynnfrwd]

ibewiggin:

Can you attach another picture? This one is too small to see. Can you do a close up and one of the whole machine with the flexshaft installed?

Thanks!

[dltccf]

Sorry to disagree, but I am starting to think all flex shafts are not equal. We have all been so terrorized by the fear of flex shaft burn up that we have become obsessive lubricators. I made a copper tube coil to lube my flex shaft. On the other hand, Al says he just puts a dab on the center of the shaft once in a while. This makes me wonder if lubrication is not really as crucial as we think. That moly stuff lasts a long time on a good flex shaft. Remember the quality control problems with the old QC? Some lasted forever and some flew apart right out of the box. I think we have to establish whether we have the same behavior here or not. If flex shafts either over heat right away or last a long time, then, we have to conclude that the flex shafts which overheat are defective. Whether they are wound to tight or the steel is too soft or for whatever reason, these are defective. The whole lubrication thing may just be a red herring.

The important question here is: Of all flex shafts which fail, do most of them fail right away.

Mine has also been hot from moment one. I was seeing it vibrate last carve as I described in another thread, I took it apart and lubed it with the liquid wrench spray with moly and the vibrating has gone away for now, but it is still hot. I checked the running hours and surprised myself by finding out I am already up to 52 hours in the short time I have had it. Still, after this discussion I am now starting to worry that I am going to be needing to replace it long before what is common. Hopefully, before rather than right after the warranty runs out.

dave

[dbfletcher]

. Hopefully, before rather than right after the warranty runs out.

dave
As others have stated, the flex shaft is considered a consumable, so it isn't typically covered under warranty.

[Ike]

I guess my concern now is IF I did something wrong, to much lube or what not. Do I need to worry about the CT? Is there a good way to ensure there is no Chain lube in it. I dont want anymore problems, it is getting rediculous.

ibewiggin, I think I am not explaining the lube correctly! Here is a link for Moly lube http://www.molygrease.com/ Like I said, " I am using Moly Lube and it doesn't say anything about chain lube, but Moly chain lube has been used successfully. I am not sure about the dry lube and would stay away from it, unless others have used it and it works? I wouldn't worry about the CT there hasn't been issue!

Ike

[ibewiggin]

I can attach more pictures but they are from my phone. They will be the same size. I can email them if you would like bigger pictures.

[ibewiggin]

@ IKE. I understand what you are saying. One of the concerns was that I had put too much lubrication. Although I am fairly certain I did not, that is why I asked about the CT.
@ DLTCCF. I would definately not leave it unattended. It seems as though many are having this same problem. I would try the other Moly that Ike is recomending. See if it helps before you have catastrophic failure. As silly as it seems it is not covered under warranty. I would not think that a part that is known to last over 200 hours is not warrantied. It is like the drive shaft of my truck. Anyways, I wouldn't chance it.

[lynnfrwd]

I can attach more pictures but they are from my phone. They will be the same size. I can email them if you would like bigger pictures.

Please send them to sales@carvewright.com

[Ike]

@ IKE. I understand what you are saying. One of the concerns was that I had put too much lubrication. Although I am fairly certain I did not, that is why I asked about the CT.
@ DLTCCF. I would definately not leave it unattended. It seems as though many are having this same problem. I would try the other Moly that Ike is recomending. See if it helps before you have catastrophic failure. As silly as it seems it is not covered under warranty. I would not think that a part that is known to last over 200 hours is not warrantied. It is like the drive shaft of my truck. Anyways, I wouldn't chance it.

Ouch after seeing the photos it does seem like it is something other then the lube! When mine melted it was around where it bends and no more then 3 inches long. So I patch that it and have not had any problems! I didn't realize it melted so much! I think you may have a good case for a free replacement flex! Sorry I often don't express myself in words very well and I was telling what I use for the lube. As forth to the CT as I said mine was very hot when new and still runs warm. That is why I switched to the straight Moly Lube in the tube because of the thickness. Matter of fact I think I will check my flex!


Ike

[liquidguitars]

A hot flex shaft can also come from:

Wrong use of a carbide cutter " cutter bit shank rubbing"
Loose bit or bit adapters.
Dull carbide.
Bad QC.
Bent or kinks in the silencer spring.
Excessive dirt.
Very hard wood.
Regarding lube i use motorcycle chain lube moly or not and even 3N1 oil and lithium.

I never melted one but i do clean them from time to time buy running solvent through the sleeve to wash the dirt away. " I am guessing not recommended by LHR.


One small point is that you really need to keep a eye on your projects especially when designing a new MPC. In this case the operator would of stopped the machine before the damage to the CNC was to severe.

[ibewiggin]

Email is sent.
@Ike. It tore apart about half the wqy up. That would be nice if they replaced it, but I doubt it.

[dltccf]

@ IKE. I understand what you are saying. One of the concerns was that I had put too much lubrication. Although I am fairly certain I did not, that is why I asked about the CT.
@ DLTCCF. I would definately not leave it unattended. It seems as though many are having this same problem. I would try the other Moly that Ike is recomending. See if it helps before you have catastrophic failure. As silly as it seems it is not covered under warranty. I would not think that a part that is known to last over 200 hours is not warrantied. It is like the drive shaft of my truck. Anyways, I wouldn't chance it.

Since the rest of the machine is still covered under warranty, and the manual specifically says use of any other lube other than the liquid wrench moly will void the warranty, I am reluctant to switch to something else yet even if its better. However, if LHR would like to take this opportunity to expand the list of warranted lubes to include the ones deemed better" than liquid wrench. Now would be a good time. I'm not feeling too good about my luck with these consumable parts. The other consumable, the traction belts, tore after only 2 hours and now the flex shaft sounds like a candidate. for early failure.

[ibewiggin]

Ok so iwas using the machine for a very basic carve in blood wood, with a new bit. I am sure the bit was tight and I have the "c" machine so I do not believe and lhr bits for the "c" machine so I do not believe any of that should have been the issue either. Thanks for the thoughts on that. The only options I can see is that the shaft is bad flexshaft, the liquid wrench is not the right stuff to use, or maybe I put too much lubrication on this time, which I do not believe to be true.

[lawrence]

How deep was your carve?-- bloodwood is SUPER hard and I would take several shallow passes for any carve in it.

Lawrence

[ibewiggin]

.125 of an inch. Is that too deep?

[lawrence]

I wouldn't consider that to be too deep if I were doing it

Lawrence

[ibewiggin]

I try to follow all the advise on this forum to a T. You guys are a great resource, very helpful, and friendly.

[lynnfrwd]

The photos indicate a classic example of the flexshaft being "in a bind". Either the end into the motor or the spindle was not properly seated putting pressure at the bend point (the same place you should be placing your hand to test). As a cable heats up, it expands and will start rubbing at the curve point in the bend of the shaft. That is where this one melted. The only reason you've never seen it this bad before is people don't usually let it go on melting for so long. They are generally and SHOULD ALWAYS BE THERE to stop it. The sheaths are a pvc product, so they should only melt. I imagine you returned to a lot of smoke and foul smell.

Our Head of Engineering is putting together a document to help better explain the flexshaft, lubrication (including approved lubricants), and reasons for it to overheat. All flexshafts will eventually wear out from use and need to be replaced. It is a consumable item and not covered under warranty.

We can sell you the full flexshaft assembly, called "Spindle Flex Assembly", which includes the core, spring and sheath. We can also sell you the core now by itself, but not just a sheath because once a core goes bad enough to melt a sheath, there is no rejuvenating the core no matter how much you lubricate it and it will eventually need to be replaced. We will also start selling just the spring, although we need to find packaging that will prevent it from suffering shipping damage.

There is nothing in the our sales numbers that indicates a "batch of bad flexshafts". In fact, the numbers have gone down consistently over the last three years and there has not been any spikes in replacement or evidence of a manufacturers defect over the last several months. These are each tested at the factory and then retested here at our facility to doubly insure there is no problem with the product.

[ibewiggin]

I am 100% certain that the flexshaft was installed correctly, and am 98% certain that I had lubricated it correctly. I have followed this procedure many times before, with nothing but success. As I had stated before, it has run hotter than my previous anchor ever did. As for buying a new flexshaft....well I think my $80 might serve me better going towards a more reliable machine. It seems to me that I am either not intelligent enough to operate these machines, or they are not very sound machines. Which ever is true, I am not sure that these two paper weights deserve to have any more of my money invested into them. I had such great plans for them too. For every carve, you get an error. For every three carves, replace a part. For every eight carves, replace the carvewright. For this I will have to consider my options, and do some serious research. In the meantime, I would like to thank everyone for the help one last time.

[Ike]

I am 100% certain that the flexshaft was installed correctly, and am 98% certain that I had lubricated it correctly. I have followed this procedure many times before, with nothing but success. As I had stated before, it has run hotter than my previous anchor ever did. As for buying a new flexshaft....well I think my $80 might serve me better going towards a more reliable machine. It seems to me that I am either not intelligent enough to operate these machines, or they are not very sound machines. Which ever is true, I am not sure that these two paper weights deserve to have any more of my money invested into them. I had such great plans for them too. For every carve, you get an error. For every three carves, replace a part. For every eight carves, replace the carvewright. For this I will have to consider my options, and do some serious research. In the meantime, I would like to thank everyone for the help one last time.

I am so sorry to hear of your decision. I started with my first CC in 06 and also bought a full size Shopbot. I used the CC so much more I never used the SB and sold it. I also bought a 14" by 25" K2 CNC in 07. It is still on the bench unused and collecting dust from my CW!

I admit I had my share of issues through the years and returned machines and have owned 4 machines since 06. One I sold to Al and another has been a part machine and the other 2 are still in operation. My CW with a Rock chuck is down just needing time to replace a cable I broke while cleaning. But my CW with the CT has been fine! This year alone I have attended 4 fairs with my sign shop and have made nearly 300 signs with my CW Plus over 100 at home!

Now you are faced with the price deprecation, you won't get what you paid for it and I hate to say it you are better off buying a new flex. Or if you have 2 CW steal the flex from the other and get one working until you decide to get a new flex or sell the machine.

You as forth to the hardness of the blood wood you would think the bit would snap if .125 was too deep or cause a cut motor error? You mentioned you were in the shop during the carve, did it sound okay or was it struggling?

Ike

[ibewiggin]

It sounded fine for the two hours that I was in the shop. When I left I did a visual check, everything looked fine. I Felt the flexshaft and it felt exactly how it usually does. Hotter than my other machine, but not hot enough to disintegrate. It just really makes me mad that a part that is supposed to last for so long, is a "consumable". I purchased a new bit a while back for my first machine. Brand new, put it in my machine. The set screw flew out of the bit and through my QC. It annihilated it. Their response was that I should have checked the set screws before installing the bit. Yes, I probably should have. However, where is the consumer loyalty? Have they ever heard of standing behind their product? Same with the flexshaft. I am a fairly seasoned user, and am familiar with the procedural maintenance. Frustrating, to say the least. I have not decided to move on for sure, but there has got to be some accountability on LHR's side too. With service as this they are limiting their ability to become a great product in every hobby shop. I really can not recommend their product to my peers.... they would laugh at me. I dreamnt of having four or five machines running at once and making some money. At this rate I would have four dead machines that I would constantly be pouring money into. Like a boat!

[bergerud]

I am happy to hear we can buy the separate flex system parts. That is great. I am still not convinced that the meltdown was user error. There does not have to be a bad batch of flex cables. It may be that every once in a while, there is a bad one. You know, the first or last one in a batch. I can not understand why a flex cable would be a consumable part. Is it expected to fail before the warranty period? I can only conclude that many cables have failed in the warranty period and LHR attributed the failure due to the user. I am sure there were cases where it was the user's fault. But what if there are bad flex shafts? How do you know that ibewiggin's flex shaft was not defective? Instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt, you guys come back with this binding theory. Do not all melt downs happen at the bend? I do not see how you can blame the user in every case.

You know, most of us love the Carvewright machine and we would very much like to feel good about LHR. In this situation, you could have bought some goodwill for the price of a flex cable.

[ibewiggin]

Well said. I am glad that other users agree with me.

[eelamb]

Sorry to hear of LHR decision. I own a small business, 5 months ago I sold a device to a customer, and installed it. Yesterday the customer calls, part of the device is not working, and has been for some time. The device is out of warranty, yet tomorrow I will drive 45 minutes to the customer, install a new device, and drive back. Cost of the device is $110. Cost to the customer for travel =0, cost of labor =0, cost for new device = 0. Customer will be satisfied, and will do business with me again. I will take a loss, but gain much more than the cost in future labor and sales.

[lawrence]

I'll say this-- this whole thing sucks....

it sucks for ibwiggin because his machine is down-- and will cost $80 to get up and running again--if he ever chooses to do so.
it sucks for LHR because negative press stinks-- especially when a lot of their advertisement right now has GOT to be traffic coming to this site... and they are in a bind because

-if they make an exception in this case, all the folks in the past who may or may not have had a faulty flex shaft or may or may not have seated the core correctly when they lubed it will scream bloody murder about their having to pay in the past
-if they don't make an exception, they look like a company that does not care about its customers... and I don't think that is the case. I think they care both because they want to put out a good product and because they want their company to succeed. There is nothing wrong with that. I also think that they truly do care about us a bit as people/consumers. Our successes are their successes as we are breaking new ground almost daily with their product.

There is no way that I would ever leave my machine for 2 hours unattended... I value my home too much... but you have a valid point as well especially if you are sure you seated it properly when you lubed it.

In cases like these, everyone is a little right, and everyone is a little wrong... and boy does that stink for everyone- including the rest of us because I know we all want to see both ibwiggin and LHR succeed.

Lawrence

[lynnfrwd]

Ibewiggin, I want you to know this was not a decision. Flexshafts not being covered under warranty is a policy. We did carefully examine the photos and it melted starting at exactly the point in the bend where we would expect it to if for some reason the core was rubbing up against the curve of the sheath. I alerted the CEO and head engineer before we even opened this morning to the post you made and we met first thing to go over it. I checked to make certain there was no spike in replacements and we all met with the techs that test these to make sure they had not noticed an issue with the flexshafts either. We discussed what more we could do to help customers prevent overheating and developed a more thorough explanation of it's care. It will be released tomorrow. It won't completely prevent them from melting, but will hopefully help.

We as I said will be making it available as needed instead of one complete assembly.

You have been an important part of this community and I along with many others would hate it if you left. You have a lot of fans and support from fellow carvers and it makes it hard to have to follow policy.

I do hope you decide to keep your machine and keep carving.

At Lawrence. I was writing while you posted, but you couldn't have said it better...it absolutely sucks...guess that's why I'm still up stressing about it.
Goodnight all.

[fwharris]

I'll say this-- this whole thing sucks....

it sucks for ibwiggin because his machine is down-- and will cost $80 to get up and running again--if he ever chooses to do so.
it sucks for LHR because negative press stinks-- especially when a lot of their advertisement right now has GOT to be traffic coming to this site... and they are in a bind because

-if they make an exception in this case, all the folks in the past who may or may not have had a faulty flex shaft or may or may not have seated the core correctly when they lubed it will scream bloody murder about their having to pay in the past
-if they don't make an exception, they look like a company that does not care about its customers... and I don't think that is the case. I think they care both because they want to put out a good product and because they want their company to succeed. There is nothing wrong with that. I also think that they truly do care about us a bit as people/consumers. Our successes are their successes as we are breaking new ground almost daily with their product.

There is no way that I would ever leave my machine for 2 hours unattended... I value my home too much... but you have a valid point as well especially if you are sure you seated it properly when you lubed it.

In cases like these, everyone is a little right, and everyone is a little wrong... and boy does that stink for everyone- including the rest of us because I know we all want to see both ibwiggin and LHR succeed.

Lawrence


Lawrence,

Once again you've hit the nail on the head, IMO! Well done!

[ibewiggin]

Honestly, this is what I expected. I just got excited when you asked to see pictures and everyone knew of anomalies where they failed, despite following LHR procedure. I guess that I just want so badly to fall in love with this machine. When I first saw it years ago, I thought it was the greatest thing since the saw. Even though my first machine was a flop, I attributed it to being a refurbished, and bought a brand new one. I see it starting all over again. We have seen the failure, gotten much advise on what caused it, gotten an answer on warranty, and received feed back from many operators. I see no further reason to continue this thread. Thank you all. I believe my questions has been very thoroughly answered.

[ibewiggin]

I think I may have possibly found the cause. I pulled the core out of the flexshaft, and was looking for any burned spots. There was one spot that was kind of bound together. It was not quite as flexible as the other sections. I would have not even noticed it, except it popped in my hand and the loosened up. Is it possible that something that minor may have been the culprit? Hope that may help anyone else with the same ptoblem.

[lynnfrwd]

The culprit can be very small, a kink or burr. It produces resistance to a spindle turning at 20,000 or so RPMs and becomes the heat source. To determine if it was there to begin with and the cause for the overheating, or if it was merely a result of the heat is hard to say at this point.

[bergerud]

Do you think you found evidence of a defect? Would a picture show us anything? I suppose it would be hard to tell if it was a cause or an effect since your cable burned up so bad. We need someone else whose cable runs hot to closely examine their cable for the same type of spot. LHR seems not believe that flex cables can be defective. Maybe they are right. If they are not right, we have to present evidence to LHR (or the US cable manufacturing company who supplies the cables) of a defective cable.

[ibewiggin]

Well it is not something you can see, plus now that it "popped" it seems normal. It may be from overheating, but at the same time I do not see any other reason for it to melt either. I would recommend that anyone having their cables run hotter than their others that the check their entire cable very carefully for something similar. I do like the new procedure, " if it is running hot, check it again. Our shafts are the best in the world. And then check it again." Lol! I am really trying to stay up beat and not negative. Anyways let us know if anyone find a similar spot.

[cnsranch]

Maybe I can stir the pot a little :)

Purely from a business perspective, LHR's in a tight spot here.

For those of us that have been around quite awhile (ibe included) we've seen bunches of flexshafts go south through the years. No one has the exact numbers, but I think that we all agree that the vast majority of those that went south went that way due to Operator Error (primarily no lubrication, etc). I'd bet that less than .1% would be faulty product.

Now that the QC isn't out there anymore (except for mine, which works just like designed), the single most vulnerable part of the machine is the shaft. And since virtually all of the failures are OE, LHR has made them a wear item. If they didn't, think of the FS's they'd be replacing, when OE is the culprit (after all, Ford isn't going to warrant my engine if I don't change the oil - trust me, I found that out back when I was 17 and sort of forgot to change the oil for the first 35,000 miles or so).

So, when a FS goes south under the care of an experienced Operator like ibe, what happens? LHR can't make an exception to the warranty - they're setting themselves up for lots of guys wanting to be made the exception - if they do start to make exceptions, then they have to make judgement calls, and then their judgement starts being called into question, etc.

So, ibe gets miffed, feels like he's being taken advantage of, no one's listening, LHR's playing hardball, not "standing up" etc. (I'd be right there, ibe, if it were me instead of you).

But, in business, it is what it is. I really don't think they think you're a numbskull, I believe they feel pretty bad something happened to the FS - but I also believe that no one can really determine what did happen. If one could, this thread would be much smaller (and you'd be happier).

Once an area of the FS gets trashed, that area's pretty much brittle, hard, charcoal ready to disintegrate - you just can't get to the heart of the problem - if you try, the FS turns into powder in your hands.

How about criticizing the Quality Control process? One probably could make the case that in fabrication, the outer shaft has a flaw inside it at some point (say, for instance, a "bump" that protrudes inside that could bind the spring, etc) - but those things are probably fabricated in 100 or 1,000 foot lengths (maybe more). If there would be a flaw, once that very long piece is cut to the proper lengths, seems to me that the flaw would then have to be situated right at the spot right where the FS's tend to go south - right at that bend. Think about the odds of that happening - 1,000 feet of sheathing cut into about 200 pieces, and the one flaw has to hit 1" of the entire 12,000 inches of material. Could be that it happened this once for ibe......

Ibe's (probably) an innocent victim of circumstances here, and LHR's getting the brunt - neither are gonna win this thing. Solution is to make it hurt the least for each party.

Possible solution? Ibe decides to take his lumps (with no hard feelings), and LHR offers to compromise on their end by, say, offering to pay for shipping re the new shaft ibe needs. Ibe gets something (albeit not the whole enchilada) and LHR participates without having to compromise its warranty/wear item policy.

OK. that last paragraph was over the line, but I think you get my point.

Don't shoot me - I was just typing out loud......

[ibewiggin]

I am past the point of asking for lhr to honor/help with anything. Now, I just want to save anyone else with similar issues. The new article does irritate me little. I basically says if you can't find the problem look again, because we have the worlds best product, so the consumer must be missing their mistake.

[mtylerfl]

I am past the point of asking for lhr to honor/help with anything. Now, I just want to save anyone else with similar issues. The new article does irritate me little. I basically says if you can't find the problem look again, because we have the worlds best product, so the consumer must be missing their mistake.

Hello,

A "bound spot" in the flexshaft core could certainly have been caused by the flex core not being fully seated into either the cut motor or the top hat. IF the core was not seated all the way at either end, that would explain evrything, including your description of the "pop" back to normal. (Once the longitudinal tension was released, it sprung back to it's wanna-be original state Hence, the "pop".) What I think happened was the core was "squished" into the length of the interior of the sheath and not able to move freely between the cut motor and top hat, leading to the friction overheating and the "bound" spot you observed. The core is designed to move lengthwise by about 1/2"-ish between the cut motor and top hat. If "bound" by not being fully installed, it can't move lengthwise while spinning.

Personally, I seriously doubt it was defective to begin with, but like I said before, anything is possible (I guess). As far as what "LHR believes" regarding defective flexshaft cores, or if they have ever seen such a thing, I do not know. However, the circumstances you stated in your overall description of your flexshaft meltdown are very typical of a core not being fully seated before running the machine. I'm reasonably confident when/if you get a replacement, it won't happen again!

I sincerely hope this incident doesn't "put you off" the CarveWright. It really is an enjoyable machine, and normally very, very little trouble to operate and maintain. It's design is elegantly simple. I, and all the rest of us, sure do want you to be able to enjoy your machine!

[ibewiggin]

Again, the shaft was installed correctly. I am absolutely 100% positive. I just wanted to ask if the "bind" was the problem. And if anyone has the shafts the seem to run hotter than previous shafts, I would recommend to check them. I understand LHR and their policy. I understand the repercussions of replacing mine. I just don't want anyone else to have the same problem when NOT from user error. Isn't that what the forum is about? One more time for the record, I assure that the flexshaft was fully seated in both the motor and the ct.

[mtylerfl]

Again, the shaft was installed correctly. I am absolutely 100% positive. I just wanted to ask if the "bind" was the problem. And if anyone has the shafts the seem to run hotter than previous shafts, I would recommend to check them. I understand LHR and their policy. I understand the repercussions of replacing mine. I just don't want anyone else to have the same problem when NOT from user error. Isn't that what the forum is about? One more time for the record, I assure that the flexshaft was fully seated in both the motor and the ct.

Ok. Then it must have been something else. What that could have been is, and probably will remain, a mystery.

[ibewiggin]

I hope not. it is an expensive mystery. can there be anything else that could cause something like this? I am not trying to come across short. I read my posts, and they sound pretty snotty. I am not trying to be, But the shaft was installed correctly, and it was lubricated as per procedure. could a new formula of the lw cause a bind like that, or maybe too much lubrication cause that bind? As I said if it is error of my procedure it was over lubrication it.

[mtylerfl]

I hope not. it is an expensive mystery. can there be anything else that could cause something like this? I am not trying to come across short. I read my posts, and they sound pretty snotty. I am not trying to be, But the shaft was installed correctly, and it was lubricated as per procedure. could a new formula of the lw cause a bind like that, or maybe too much lubrication cause that bind? As I said if it is error of my procedure it was over lubrication it.

Hello,

I have heard of the spring inside the sheath becoming broken (or gone missing - I had a guy call me once saying he found a long spring on the floor near his CompuCarve, asking me if I knew where it came from!). Is your spring in one piece? Perhaps a broken spring could cause an internal binding leading to the friction/overheating.

[ibewiggin]

The spring is there. I will check it more thorough when I get home, for any irregularities.

[GrammaPam]

I was going to stay out of this conversation because the person who started it said he was through with it. Two incidents in my earlier life relate to this situation, plus an incident with my second Carvewright's flex shaft.
Many years ago in the history of screen printed t-shirts, customers were complaining that the white ink wasn't wearing on their custom printed dark t-shirts. When printers started comparing notes, the ink manufacturer maintained they were doing everything the same so it couldn't be their fault. Turned out that even though it was plastisol ink, the humidity in Seattle that year was much higher than usual and was indeed affecting the ink’s ability to cure properly. A few years later t-shirt transfers were not holding the color of the design printed on the transfer paper once it was on the shirt. The largest transfer manufacturer insisted it wasn't their fault because they were doing everything the same. Finally turned out the baked clay finish of the transfer paper from France was the culprit. It was eventually realized but not before the integrity of the whole industry was damaged.
Now on to my second machine, it ran hot from day one. I started checking it constantly, stopping it to let it cool, reseating it, making sure it was lubed, everything. Within a very few hours it melted. A replacement FS also ran hotter than I was happy with. Finally gave that machine to my son and got a third one, which runs a normal temperature. I don't believe it is always operator error and I have learned first hand that it benefits everyone to keep an open mind. Defensiveness does not make for progress.
My two cents would be followed up with a suggestion to ibewiggin: You really should come to the group meeting next Thursday. The comradeship alone would be cathartic. Fellow carvers are some of the nicest people you will meet.
G.P.

[ibewiggin]

I have been really wanting to come to the group. it just seems like something always comes up. Two of the group members helped out a lot with my first machine. Great guys, brought a complete stranger to their house and we just worked through it. Actually he did all the work. I just watched!

[CasinoDuck]

Smooth business move guys, great job! Your too busy thinking about the dollar, you've forgotten about the dollar! Here you have a customer that not only bought one CW, but TWO! Your customer has had a failure within the warranty period. (Under 30 hours run time!) Unfortunately, for your customer, it is a part that you consider ware and tare and should not be covered under warranty. Therefore, your customer will need to purchase a new one. I have to hand it to you, great job here! I love it how you just CYA! It's great how you just saved your company the 35 bucks it cost you for the part. I'm sure you know the cost to get a customer right? I mean, there must be someone in marketing that would know the figure, right? I'm sure the 35 bucks you just saved is a fraction of that cost, right? Thinking about your decision makes me sick to my stomach. Even if it were true, that all the flex-shafts were worn due to the end user, you would still be liable by making a product that is so easily breakable. This is due to the excessive amount that has already failed. I think you have taken this too far, and will ultimately have to re-think your business model if you want to retain let alone attract new customers.

[ibewiggin]

I really appreciate all the support from fellow users. At this point they have made their decision and will have to live with it. My main concern now is to figure out why it happened and save some of you, the same headache.

[lawrence]

good points have been made by all-- only one thing is certain and

1. that is that there is no way that anyone (including me) knows with 100% certainty that I absolutely lubricated and seated the flex shaft with zero chance of user error
2. there is no way that LHR can know with 100% certainty that there are never any flaws in the shafts-- all they can do is look for trends (which they have done and not found any) and then make sure their policy and instructions on how to care for the flex shaft are abundantly clear.... (which they have also done)

- to this end they made the part not covered by the warranty-- and they make that very (very) clear. I may not be thrilled with that, but I can't say with any honesty that I am not aware of it, so therefore I take that chance.

I will say this-- because of folks' experimenting and experience (and I believe the invention of the Rock Chuck and Carvetight) There seem to be MANY fewer flex shafts burning... (many many fewer). I believe that there is less and less cause to call it an "easily breakable" part. I had no clue it was made in the USA though-- and was both surprised and pleased to hear this.

Just my .02.... again take it for what it is worth, but I would hope that this conversation would continue to be pleasant and neither a user bash or a company bash... that accomplishes little and it has been nice to have seen this thread be so civil on both sides.
Lawrence