vibrating flex shaft [Archive] - CarveWright Users' Forum

AskBud

08-21-2011, 09:57 AM

hess

08-22-2011, 03:24 AM

might check to make sure the wire spring around the flex in intact

dltccf

08-22-2011, 08:19 AM

Thanks guys, I don't think it is the bit as it did this with both the carving and the cutting bit. I can't use softer wood as I was already using pine. The truck and the shaft seem snug in the fit so I''l look at the spring next.

mtylerfl

08-22-2011, 11:37 AM

yesterday while carving I noticed that the flex shaft started to vibrate and make a noise. It seemed most pronounced when the head was moving right. (I'm never sure how to describe directions with this thing so I will say left to right as seen looking through plastic cover.) If I put a slight amount of pressure with my hand on the shaft (left hand pushing slightly to the right in the middle of the shaft) it would run smooth, but obviously I can't stand there and hold it for hours. What has come loose? How serious is this? What should I take apart and look at first? Is it likely something that just needs to be tightened or likely something is partially stripped?

thanks,
dave

This isn't necessarily a sign of a problem - of course, DO check to make sure everything is tight, fastened, lubed, etc. (as it sounds like you already have). I sometimes see the flexshaft vibration too. Same story... if I "hold" it in a slightly new position while the cutting is going on, the vibration diminishes...and, when I have seen it, it is usually the same area...the "right" as viewed from the clear cover. I think it has to do with the bend in the flexshaft. This has been intermittent for years on both my machines, and I have never had any damage occur and I pretty much ignore it now. Perhaps an LHR Tech has a different opinion, though!

dbfletcher

08-22-2011, 11:44 AM

This isn't necessarily a sign of a problem - of course, DO check to make sure everything is tight, fastened, lubed, etc. (as it sounds like you already have). I sometimes see the flexshaft vibration too. Same story... if I "hold" it in a slightly new position while the cutting is going on, the vibration diminishes...and, when I have seen it, it is usually the same area...the "right" as viewed from the clear cover. I think it has to do with the bend in the flexshaft. This has been intermittent for years on both my machines, and I have never had any damage occur and I pretty much ignore it now. Perhaps an LHR Tech has a different opinion, though!

Offtopic... But congrats on post 5000 Michael!!!!!!!!

mtylerfl

08-22-2011, 11:46 AM

Offtopic... But congrats on post 5000 Michael!!!!!!!!

Holy cow! I didn't even notice! (Man, I talk too much.)

b.sumner47

08-22-2011, 12:16 PM

Michael T ,Congrates on 5,000 posts." Let you fingers do the walkin " Capt Barry

Digitalwoodshop

08-22-2011, 12:56 PM

WOW MT... 5000 quality posts... WOW...

As for the vibrating flex...

Lubrication.... Just a dime size glob in the center of the inner flex and slide it back in.

QC.. I remember I would get the vibrating flex when my QC was going BAD.... QC or ROCK?

OR... You may have accumulated a bunch of stuff inside the flex... One user posted that he used a .22 Gun Cleaning Rod to clean out the outer flex...

AL

dltccf

09-01-2011, 07:36 PM

47037Well it didn't take long. I took the shaft apart and lubed it with the liquid wrench with moly and that quieted it down a little but didn't make it any less hot. That was after having the machine all of 6 weeks and running it 52 hours. Tonight at 57 hours the plastic all melted off the shaft. It doesn't appear that there was a "hot spot" as it seems to have melted evenly along about 75% of the shaft. I guess I will be needing to order a new one. At this rate I am running about $100 a month in "consumables". I might as well go back to golfing, its seems to be cheaper.

mtylerfl

09-02-2011, 08:03 AM

I'm so sorry you've had this problem. Were you monitoring the machine while it was carving? I would have recommended you stop the machine if the shaft was getting so hot to the point of meltdown, and called CarveWright immediately for advice.

We know the meltdown is caused from friction. We also know you lubed the flexcore. The only things left I can think of that would have caused this are either the spring inside was askew and contributed to the friction and/or the shaft was "kinked" by not being fully seated between the cut motor inlet and the top hat insert. This causes a "binding" of the flexcore, and as it is spinning, creates the uneven turning of the core inside the sheath - thus friction and heat leading to the meltdown.

Again, I am very sorry for the somewhat costly meltdown of your flexshaft, but I think once you receive your new one and lube and confirm complete seating in the cut motor and top hat, you should be home free like the majority of us who have never had to replace a flexshaft.

dltccf

09-02-2011, 09:03 AM

Yes, I was monitoring the machine. I have been babysitting it closely ever since the other thread a week or two ago about lubing. Problem was that I have never from the first carve not had the shaft be hot. I followed all the directions and everything seemed to fit as it should both on the original install and after lubing. The lubing seemed to reduce the vibrating some and the overall noise level, but as far as I knew everything was operating normal for this machine. I was about 15 feet away putting a new blade on my chainsaw when I noticed it start to vibrate a little more than normal and then I saw the plastic cover on the shaft was melting. I stopped the machine right away.

Would LHR be interested in getting back the old shaft for analysis? If it can help improve the design and prevent others from experiencing this then I would like to help make the version D even better. I am concerned that I will put the new one on and something else about the machine may cause it to behave like the old one and I'll be ordering new parts again.

So once I install the new shaft, what temperature should I consider normal? At what temp should I immediately call LHR?

dave

I'm so sorry you've had this problem. Were you monitoring the machine while it was carving? I would have recommended you stop the machine if the shaft was getting so hot to the point of meltdown, and called CarveWright immediately for advice.

We know the meltdown is caused from friction. We also know you lubed the flexcore. The only things left I can think of that would have caused this are either the spring inside was askew and contributed to the friction and/or the shaft was "kinked" by not being fully seated between the cut motor inlet and the top hat insert. This causes a "binding" of the flexcore, and as it is spinning, creates the uneven turning of the core inside the sheath - thus friction and heat leading to the meltdown.

Again, I am very sorry for the somewhat costly meltdown of your flexshaft, but I think once you receive your new one and lube and confirm complete seating in the cut motor and top hat, you should be home free like the majority of us who have never had to replace a flexshaft.

mtylerfl

09-02-2011, 09:53 AM

Hi Dave,

I don't know if LHR would want to see the flexshaft or not - you could give them a call and ask, of course. I think as long as you make sure the flexshaft is properly lubed and seated, you will be fine. My flexshafts only get a little warmer than my hand, even on very long carves (a few degrees warmer than body temperature). Sort of like running lukewarm water from the tap. Some folks have made it a "science" of measuring flexshaft temp, but I have not found it necessary to do that. I simply place my hand lightly on the bend of the flexshaft periodically during a carve to feel how warm it is. If it ever feels hot to the touch, that would be the time to stop the project.

A couple things to check when installing your new flexshaft...make sure the top hat square hole has not been "rounded over" (possibly damaged from not having the flexshaft fully seated from a previous use). Also, see if you can inspect the cut motor inlet as well. If either of those are "rounded" the new flexshaft might not have a proper (tight) fit and lead to the same problem. I don't know for sure if the flex core is robust enough to round out either of those receptacles, but might be good to inspect, just in case! That might be another question to ask Tech Support.

ibewiggin

09-02-2011, 10:15 AM

What date did you order your machine?

mtylerfl

09-02-2011, 10:52 AM

Dave,

A couple of us have picked up on the very long board in the background of your photo. Was that the board you were running when you had the meltdown? How long was the board? ...Are you sure it was tracking nice, flat and in-line with both the stationary guide plate and sliding guide plate?...How much did the board weigh? (the CW machine has a 20 lb. weight limit). Also, I notice you have a ladder as the outfeed support - that's not good - you need roller stands on both sides of the machine, otherwise the machine is very stressed trying to "pull through" the board in the X-axis.

Any undue "stress" caused by the board itself, could have led to stress being transferred from the spindle to the flexshaft. Yet another possible explanation that may have led to your particular problem. Let us know.

Thanks.

dltccf

09-02-2011, 11:01 AM

What date did you order your machine?

I don't remember the order date, but I activated it on 7-17-11. It was one of the openbox specials carvewright was running at the time.

dltccf

09-02-2011, 11:07 AM

It was a 8' pine 1x10 supported on the far end. It was tracking just fine and the carve area was about 2' from the end.

Dave,

A couple of us have picked up on the very long board in the background of your photo. Was that the board you were running when you had the meltdown? How long was the board? ...Are you sure it was tracking nice, flat and in-line with both the stationary guide plate and sliding guide plate?...How much did the board weigh? (the CW machine has a 20 lb. weight limit).

Any undue "stress" caused by the board itself, could have led to stress being transferred from the spindle to the flexshaft. Yet another possible explanation that may have led to your particular problem. Let us know.

Thanks.

bjbethke

09-02-2011, 11:33 AM

Dave you might want to check the front bearing on the drive motor, I had that bearing come apart about a year ago. The carvings looked OK but the flex shaft would vibrate and make odd noises intermittently.

mtylerfl

09-02-2011, 11:40 AM

It was a 8' pine 1x10 supported on the far end. It was tracking just fine and the carve area was about 2' from the end.

Ok, Dave. Thank you for the additional information.

I believe we have found the conditions that ultimately led to the problem. I think you can easily avoid this problem in the future by properly supporting the board (both ends with roller stands so when the board outfeeds to the oppsite side, there is adequate low-friction support on each end). It's fairly clear that the machine was stressed from the beginning of that project and a combination of factors led to the meltdown. Hard lesson, but I'm confident you'll be up and running trouble-free in the near future.

dltccf

09-02-2011, 05:32 PM

I absolutely have to disagree. I had the board well supported and make sure there is a little stress as possible on all projects. The machine itself is even mounted on a box that has wheels that will move easily to relieve any stress that would get introduced in any way. This shaft is hot on ALL projects no matter what the length of the board.

I removed and examined the shaft today, it looks exactly like it did the day I first put it into the machine. I am soaking it in the liquid wrench now and will later hang it up to dry. I have examined the shaft conduit and it appears to have no other damage beyond the melted plastic. I am confident that I can reinstall the shaft in the machine and it will perform exactly as it has from the day it arrived in my garage. I am not confident that when the new shaft arrives it will be any different than this one.

There is definitely a problem with some shafts no matter how careful the user is to properly insert them. A search of this forum will quickly inform anyone that this problem is more than merely a rare issue caused by user error. LHR would not have designated the shaft a "consumable" item if this was the case. If you have not experienced this yourself consider yourself lucky. I will continue to do all I can to support my boards in the future but I do not in any way believe that will easily avoid the problem.

dave

Ok, Dave. Thank you for the additional information.

I believe we have found the conditions that ultimately led to the problem. I think you can easily avoid this problem in the future by properly supporting the board (both ends with roller stands so when the board outfeeds to the oppsite side, there is adequate low-friction support on each end). It's fairly clear that the machine was stressed from the beginning of that project and a combination of factors led to the meltdown. Hard lesson, but I'm confident you'll be up and running trouble-free in the near future.

AskBud

09-02-2011, 05:51 PM

I'm jumping back in to give some other thoughts.
I think/feel that the vibration is/was due to stress (resistance) of the bit against the wood. Too fast, too dull, too deep of a cut, too loose, etc.

Any one of the above will cause the vibration. Now as to the heat! The vibration could have been the source of this problem as well, It could have damaged the internal parts within the Flex housing. You do not speak to the spring that is in the Flex. It keeps the drive core/shaft from touching the outer housing. If it is damaged, it may have a different color or strength at the point of high heat. It should be in one long piece, and flex the same at any point. If it is broken or damaged in any way, it could be your heat source. If it is missing that is also a bad situation!
AskBud

mtylerfl

09-03-2011, 08:16 AM

Hi Dave,

Bud brings up a good point about the spring - I briefly mentioned that in an earlier post. Does it appear to you that the spring is undamaged? Also, check the core tension itself by grasping each end firmly with your arms extended so the core is horizontal between them, and try to twist the core. If it seems to tend to "kink" (coil up in the middle) you know it's no good anymore (damaged or worn out). If it "holds" in the straight horizontal line and has little or no tendency to coil in the middle, it's probably still ok.

Also, inspect the ends...any evidence of fraying wire and are the ends still "square shaped"? I have a flexcore end that I had to gently hammer back into a square as I noticed a slight "rounding" and a slight fraying of the end, which caused it to become wedged in the cut motor inlet. I had taken out the core (can't recall why at the moment...might have been to peek at it after doing some scanning) and it was stuck pretty good in the end of the cut motor inlet...had to pull it free using a pair of pliers to grasp it firmly enough to yank it out. That's when I noticed that end of the core was not as neat a square shape as the top hat end and took a chance, pounded it on my bench top anvil/vise to square it up again. LHR advised it might be a good idea to order a new one, but I took a chance and reinserted it. That was quite awhile ago, and thankfully, it has been working flawlessly since (I made a post about it, at the time...I may have had photos too...don't remember).

I'm sorry that you have gone through this and hope you are 'back in business' soon!

dltccf

09-05-2011, 03:19 PM

I was just going to leave this alone but I can't. You see, I do testing for a living on hardware/firmware/software platforms that are much more complicated and expensive than the Carvewright. So I have been told hundreds of times that the defects I have found are "User Error" and I have proven hundreds of times that they are not. ALL vendors blame their defects on user error. Users do make errors and the Darwin awards aren't going away any time soon, but almost all user errors are the result of poor design or manufacturing defects. The companies that stick around are the ones that continuously improve their products by eliminating the defects and improving the design. LHR has shown they can do that with the new chuck, I want them to continue with the shaft also so they continue to stick around.

My company writes contracts with their vendors that requires them to pay 5 figures every time I find a single defect with their systems in my testing and they pay because even after they have designed and tested and redesigned and retested I still find defects. Some are obvious and some take months of testing to find. They do this because if I don't find it and it fails in the field then my company pays millions in refunds to customers and government fines for the services they provide using the systems from these vendors. I say this not to brag but to help you understand that I don't toss off the notion that "It can't be my fault" willy-nilly. I have looked closely at the shaft, the spring, the sheath, the overall machine, the project, the board, the support, the platform on which the machine rests, the way the board jogs through the machine, the way the shaft flexes through different parts of the project and several other factors and I can say that I am pretty convinced that the source of the heat problem in my case and likely in the many other cases reported is in the sheath. I don't have a large enough sample to determine if the defect exists semi-randonly in all sheaths and only effects those in which it occurs at the point of highest flexion or if it exists only in some sheaths. But I can say with some conviction that there is definitely a sheath defect problem. I don't expect a team of engineers to come and analyse my thermal event on my hobby machine like I would for other defects I encounter in my professional life, but neither do I accept that it is "an expensive lesson learned and easily avoided". If it were a user error, it would have been a cheap lesson learned and I am seeking to learn all I can from this. I have already ordered a replacement and will install it when it arrives and watch it closely to see if it has the same defect as the first. I love my Carvewright machine, but I recognize that it like every machine design is a series of tradeoffs.

My hope is that LHR seeks to avoid more dissatisfied customers by instead of merely designating the flex shaft assembly as a "consumable" and dismissing this defect as user error, they seriously go after their parts supplier to deliver to them a defect free product.

dave

Hi Dave,

Bud brings up a good point about the spring - I briefly mentioned that in an earlier post. Does it appear to you that the spring is undamaged? Also, check the core tension itself by grasping each end firmly with your arms extended so the core is horizontal between them, and try to twist the core. If it seems to tend to "kink" (coil up in the middle) you know it's no good anymore (damaged or worn out). If it "holds" in the straight horizontal line and has little or no tendency to coil in the middle, it's probably still ok.

Also, inspect the ends...any evidence of fraying wire and are the ends still "square shaped"? I have a flexcore end that I had to gently hammer back into a square as I noticed a slight "rounding" and a slight fraying of the end, which caused it to become wedged in the cut motor inlet. I had taken out the core (can't recall why at the moment...might have been to peek at it after doing some scanning) and it was stuck pretty good in the end of the cut motor inlet...had to pull it free using a pair of pliers to grasp it firmly enough to yank it out. That's when I noticed that end of the core was not as neat a square shape as the top hat end and took a chance, pounded it on my bench top anvil/vise to square it up again. LHR advised it might be a good idea to order a new one, but I took a chance and reinserted it. That was quite awhile ago, and thankfully, it has been working flawlessly since (I made a post about it, at the time...I may have had photos too...don't remember).

I'm sorry that you have gone through this and hope you are 'back in business' soon!

dbfletcher

09-05-2011, 03:42 PM

Very well said. And I for one appreciate your insights. I also would feel much better about LHR if they would simply come out and admit when there is an issue. We all knew the quick chuck has issues, but were constantly told that if you had a problem with the QC, it was mostly likely due to an error on your part and not the design of the chuck. I'd love to see them take a page from most of the automobile companies now (ie. Toyota Brake issue in 2010). They were proactive, upfront, and I believe they gained a lot of respect from consumers for not trying to sweep the issue under the rug quietly. As we have all said many times before, we are passionate about our machines and we are certainly want LHR to survive and even thrive. But it often feels that any negative comment made here is taken as a "slap in the face" to LHR. We are simply trying to help most times by trying to bring potential shortfalls to light.

dcalvin4

09-05-2011, 04:19 PM

My flex shaft used to wabble wabble wabble till i cleaned off the white grease installed by the factory and lubed with a spray lube that containes molly,,,Now the flex shaft does not wobble or Heat up....
I read the forum most every day and I read this tip there

denny

dltccf

09-12-2011, 02:09 PM

Well, I have received my new flex shaft assembly and have printed out the instructions and followed them very carefully and precisely. I finished the install and then put in a small 1/2 by 5 1/2 inch poplar board about 2 1/2 feet long and am carving a simple project that carves no deeper than 1/8 inch and at optimal speed. And yet, this new shaft assembly is also running hot. Hot enough that you can hold your hands on it, but you don't want to.

lynnfrwd

09-12-2011, 03:13 PM

dltccf

09-12-2011, 03:25 PM

Did you put any lubricant on it? Did you make certain it was engaged into the motor? Fully seated into the spindle? Do you have a IR thermometer to measure the temperature? Is is hotter in the middle, near the motor, near the spindle?

I did not lubricate it. It appeared to have been lubricated before it was shipped. The original seemed to have had a thicker lubricant on it while the new one appeared like after I applied the liquid wrench with moly when I lubed the original. I made sure it was fully seated and spun it by hand to make sure everything was turning smoothly. It didn't appear to have a single hot spot, but was hot along the entire length.

dltccf

09-12-2011, 03:26 PM

lawrence

09-12-2011, 03:34 PM

If you have done all of the above and still need to get a bit of cooling assistance until the lubricant "breaks in" (seems to take about 3-5 hours of carving to do so for mine)

1. Watch the ambient temp-- when it is 110+ around here I start debating whether I should do a carve or not.
2. Try doing a couple of "easy on the shaft/truck" carves until the break in happens-- in my mind this means centerline text carves... after a couple of carves (after lubricating) my shaft really cools down.
3. Turn a box fan onto the shaft itself---this was a real head slapper for me when someone suggested it. If I run a fan on the shaft it runs at room temperature no matter how long the carve is. I just use a box fan and turn it on about 3 feet away--- works like a charm

Again, these are suggestions to do AFTER you have looked at the other possibilities

Lawrence

lynnfrwd

09-12-2011, 04:26 PM

Oh, and no, I do not have an IR thermometer.

I really should read posts in the correct order. Do not lubricate it. It comes from the factory already to go. I was just making sure that you didn't!!

b.sumner47

09-12-2011, 11:00 PM

When I'm carving I have cieling fan on low, works GREAT ! Capt Barry

dltccf

09-14-2011, 05:05 PM

AskBud

09-14-2011, 05:35 PM

Just for the heck of it, attach your MPC. Humor me!
AskBud

lynnfrwd

09-14-2011, 05:49 PM

dltccf:

I have sent you a PM.

Connie

dltccf

09-14-2011, 06:52 PM

Just for the heck of it, attach your MPC. Humor me!
AskBud

I am attaching the mpc from both melts. The first melted during the box sides carving and the second the grapes. I have drawn a line on both to indicate approximately where in the carving the melt occured.
47254
47255

mtylerfl

09-14-2011, 08:28 PM

Hello,

Although your MPC's likely have very little (or nothing) to do with your meltdown, I did notice that your grapes carving (a pierced carve) has no manual tabs at all. That's a problem "waiting to happen" for sure. Also, you did not use "Bit Optimization: BEST" on any of the patterns. Not doing so will yield a sub-quality carve result.

Stickin' my neck out here...I cannot for the life of me figure out how the second flex could have melted. Were you there monitoring? If so, why wasn't the machine stopped the instant you noticed the overheating? Sorry to say - I still do not believe in any "defective" flex cores. I think it is far more likely that either the spindle top hat square where the flex core inserts is "rounded", or the cut motor end is "rounded", or the flex was not fully seated this time either. There's just not that many other possibilities. Something funny is going on there. I wish I lived next door so I could come over and take a peek for myself! I can hardly stand that you are having such unnecessary issues.

EDIT: Wanted to add a scenario where you could over-stress the machine. Your pierced carves are deep. Normally, not a problem - the Carving Bit is very, very stout. However, let's say you were carving a hardwood (oak , maple, whatever) and you selected any quality other than "BEST" or "OPTIMAL" when you uploaded to your memory card. This sets up a situation where you may be asking "too much" of the machine. The poor bit would have to plow deeply through the hardwood at a rather high rate - inviting bit overheating, which could transfer heat to the spindle, etc.

"DRAFT" or "NORMAL" settings on a deep carve using hardwood is very stressful - don't do it. The CarveWright will carve more "gently" when selecting "BEST" or "OPTIMAL". Great for both softwoods and hardwoods...and no undue stress or bit overheating.

lawrence

09-14-2011, 09:59 PM

OK, after checking everything over one more time, I decided to try these suggestions. I set up a box fan about 24 inches away blowing directly on it and with an ambient temperature in the low 80's I started a simple carve in pine. (I don't have centerline) The result wasn't the "break in" I was hoping for, only the "break" part. I now have two melted sheaths.

Man, it really really sucks that your second shaft melted-- how hot did it get? Did your machine smell strange before it melted? If it ever gets too hot to touch then it is too hot. If it got that hot very quickly then I suspect something else is going on with your machine other than your flexshaft.

My flexshaft never gets much above room temp after breaking-in-- during break in it was between 110-115 except for one spot right at the bottom of the wire frame that got to 119... even so I check the temp of my flexshaft every 15 mins or so with my hand.

Again, I can't help but think that there is something other than your flexshaft going on if you've burned 2 in a row-- whether it is your bearings or your tophat got lube in it or your cutmoter shaft mount is rounded etc I can't say, but the thing you are experiencing certainly sounds unusual.

I hope my suggestions did not lead you astray- I should have emphasized that you should still monitor your machine very closely -- I know after my one error (the sandpaper roller got rolled under and lost me half of a carve) I monitored my machine for the next couple of carves 100% of the time-- I didn't want to take any chances and I was constantly doing the crosschecks of "flexshaft, check sandpaper, listen for any unusual noises, check carve, repeat" until I was confident once more that the machine was working well.

I do hope things work out for you and that you get your machine up and running quickly and inexpensively.

Lawrence

dltccf

09-14-2011, 10:02 PM

Both carvings were in pine. The grapes were at optimal in order to have the absolute least stress on the machine and the other since it was shallow and not ornate was only carved at best.

I do not believe in defective flex cores either, I do however suspect very strongly the sheaths.

Hello,

Although your MPC's likely have very little (or nothing) to do with your meltdown, I did notice that your grapes carving (a pierced carve) has no manual tabs at all. That's a problem "waiting to happen" for sure. Also, you did not use "Bit Optimization: BEST" on any of the patterns. Not doing so will yield a sub-quality carve result.

Stickin' my neck out here...I cannot for the life of me figure out how the second flex could have melted. Were you there monitoring? If so, why wasn't the machine stopped the instant you noticed the overheating? Sorry to say - I still do not believe in any "defective" flex cores. I think it is far more likely that either the spindle top hat square where the flex core inserts is "rounded", or the cut motor end is "rounded", or the flex was not fully seated this time either. There's just not that many other possibilities. Something funny is going on there. I wish I lived next door so I could come over and take a peek for myself! I can hardly stand that you are having such unnecessary issues.

EDIT: Wanted to add a scenario where you could over-stress the machine. Your pierced carves are deep. Normally, not a problem - the Carving Bit is very, very stout. However, let's say you were carving a hardwood (oak , maple, whatever) and you selected any quality other than "BEST" or "OPTIMAL" when you uploaded to your memory card. This sets up a situation where you may be asking "too much" of the machine. The poor bit would have to plow deeply through the hardwood at a rather high rate - inviting bit overheating, which could transfer heat to the spindle, etc.

"DRAFT" or "NORMAL" settings on a deep carve using hardwood is very stressful - don't do it. The CarveWright will carve more "gently" when selecting "BEST" or "OPTIMAL". Great for both softwoods and hardwoods...and no undue stress or bit overheating.

lynnfrwd

09-14-2011, 10:06 PM

The sheaths?!...why the sheaths?

mtylerfl

09-14-2011, 10:49 PM

lynnfrwd

09-14-2011, 10:54 PM

We can tell by looking at them usually. I was shown the difference about two weeks ago. I'll try to post some photos comparing good bearing to one polluted with excess moly.

mtylerfl

09-14-2011, 10:59 PM

We can tell by looking at them usually. I was shown the difference about two weeks ago. I'll try to post some photos comparing good bearing to one polluted with excess moly.

Thank you. That could be very handy. Photo-reference material is always appreciated! (Makes me think of the zillions of helpful photos that ALWho has so kindly posted for us.)

Smoken D

09-15-2011, 08:18 AM

Would love to see the photos also.

lynnfrwd

09-15-2011, 10:45 AM

4726547266
Here are two pictures. Both are used bearings. One is full of excess lubricant from the flexshaft.

dbfletcher

09-15-2011, 01:32 PM

I thougth the upper spindle bearings were ceramic? Maybe it is just the picture, but it looks like a typical ball bearing and race.

dltccf

09-15-2011, 02:38 PM

Those appear to be the same bearing taken from 2 different angles. Look at the oily dirt along the top edge, it looks like the same dirt in both pictures.

4726547266
Here are two pictures. Both are used bearings. One is full of excess lubricant from the flexshaft.

Smoken D

09-15-2011, 05:20 PM

Yea, I would say the same bearings, different angles, different lightning, still a mess.

dltccf

09-15-2011, 05:48 PM

lynnfrwd

09-15-2011, 05:54 PM

Two photos of same objects - one is from my iphone and the one that has the peachy color background is from a digital camera. (Sorry about the confusion, I should have explained.) Bearing in spindle is with excess lubricant down in it. Bearing sitting on top right corner is a used, but good bearing without excess lubricant from flexshaft running down into it.

Smoken D

09-16-2011, 08:33 AM

Duhhh! Bulb just came on, now I see!

ibewiggin

09-18-2011, 10:40 PM

OK, I just got off the phone with Chris, he was very good and went methodically through the possibilities. After trying a number of things he had me remove the cut motor and measure how deep the shaft inserts into the slot for it in the motor. I measured between 5/8 and 11/16 of an inch. He believes that is not deep enough so he is sending a new cut motor (and also a new shaft assembly) to see if that solves the problem. When it arrives I will report on whether it does.

I am very curious to find out if this is the same problem as mine. That is exactly why I have been hesitant to try a new shaft. It has just been sitting. Could you please send me the exact procedure to check mine?

dltccf

09-19-2011, 08:57 AM

Well, lets see, I am at work and it was several days ago, but here goes:

Take the top cover off. There are 4 screws. Take the two on the side out but only unscrew the ones in the top out to where they are disconnected but not out. Otherwise, they might drop down in to the machine. There is a 3 (black and white wires) wire connector that plugs into the circuit board on the left side. Unplug it and then lay the cover off to the right with the cut motor wires still connected. You will probably end up doing that from the back of the machine, so reverse left and right if you are. The cut motor then has three or four screws holding it in. Take it out and then take the flex shaft (without the sheath) and see how deep it seats into the slot for it in the cut motor. I kept the spring on it and pushed the spring down until it touched the cover then pulled them both out and measured from the end of the shaft to the end of the spring. Make sure you don't compress the spring when you use it to measure or it will make you measurement wrong.

I am very curious to find out if this is the same problem as mine. That is exactly why I have been hesitant to try a new shaft. It has just been sitting. Could you please send me the exact procedure to check mine?

LittleRedWoodshop

09-20-2011, 01:13 AM

I hope things work out on the issues but I just thought I would post a little cleaned up pattern of the box design (great design by the way). I used the "Snap to Grid" and the "Mirror" options to clean it up a little bit - just delete the shell and you're in business.

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/04/28/42/shell_10.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/?4cu7nai7aqyxn7n)

click the image to download

dltccf

09-20-2011, 08:33 AM

I like the addition. I'm curious why you decided to put the long sides side by side. I had originally placed the longs over top each other and the shorts over top each other because that made the overall length of the project a little shorter. Not a big deal, but I was wondering of there was a design consideration I hadn't taken into account?

BTW, after the initial meltdown I lubed the shaft and put everything back together even with the melted cover on the sheath and was able to complete the project by stopping the machine every 15 minutes to let it cool down. I gave me a good chance to observe the behavior of the sheath because the plastic cover no longer hid it. Anyway, this is how it turned out. You can see a slight mark where the stop and restart didn't quite match up that I wasn't able to sand out, but overall I liked the result.

473604735747359

I hope things work out on the issues but I just thought I would post a little cleaned up pattern of the box design (great design by the way). I used the "Snap to Grid" and the "Mirror" options to clean it up a little bit - just delete the shell and you're in business.

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/04/28/42/shell_10.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/?4cu7nai7aqyxn7n)

click the image to download

Ducky63

09-20-2011, 01:06 PM

LittleRedWoodshop

09-20-2011, 01:18 PM

Hey Ducky - the original design belongs to dltccf (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5368-dltccf) so you will have to ask him.

dltccf (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5368-dltccf) the reason that I put them across from each other is because I am using the mirror feature in the software. This just lets me make sure that each of the sides is the same and if I decide to put designs on the sides (other than the shell composition) it will be a lot easier.

dltccf

09-20-2011, 02:04 PM

Jason That looks like a nice box to make but what is the dimension of the box & it looks like it cuts everything out? I would like to make some if it is ok with you? It look like you used pine? Thank you Ducky63

The base of the box is about 7 1/2 inches by 12 inches by 4 inches high. I made the lid slightly larger. Feel free to make as many of them as you like. Just make sure you take pictures and post them here so we can all tell you how great they look. I started by looking at MichaelT's POM called the butterfly box. As a tutorial, I decided to try to create my own version of a box like it from scratch. I recommend you do the same, it was a very good learning experience and not as hard as I thought it would be. Again, thanks to MichaelT for the well written tutorial that POM turned out to be.

The base can be made from a 1X10 about 2 1/2 feet long (about 22 inches plus your 7 inches for keep under rollers. ) the lid can be made from another 13 + 7 inches of the same 1X10. For the lid I made a 12.25 by 7.75 inch rectangle then placed corner01 (look in your basic patterns under corners) just a little off the corner then mirrored it to all four corners. Then I outlined it and created a cut path around the outside. I then placed a pattern called Rope Circle that I downloaded from somewhere here on the forum, I believe. I stretched it into an oval. Then I placed my Family Crest that I had imported after using a technique described somewhere on the forum by askBud to turn a 2D drawing into a 3D pattern (thanks Bud). I made the whole original rectangle a carved region with a depth of .250 and it came out looking like you see in the picture. Before doing this tutorial exercise for myself, I had mostly been copying .mpc files others had posted and making some changes, but going through the whole exercise of doing it all from scratch made me realize just how much you can do easily with the simple tools and patterns that are available. It is much less complicated than it was in my mind before I went completely through the process of doing it on my own.

Oh, yes I did use pine. Make your first out of pine then once you have more confidence use something more expensive. Even the pine will look great though and will this one make a great Christmas present for my father.

Dave (not Jason)

dltccf

09-20-2011, 02:17 PM

OK, that makes sense. I did the same, but used the vertical mirror. I think I ended up breaking the mirror and flipping things around when I was experimenting with different designs on the sides which I eventually deleted because I liked the plain look for my first try. I also thought that If I ever wanted to make another but only had a 1X6 I could do a simple cut and paste and would have a top and a side that I could run through.

Hey Ducky - the original design belongs to dltccf (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5368-dltccf) so you will have to ask him.

dltccf (http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?5368-dltccf) the reason that I put them across from each other is because I am using the mirror feature in the software. This just lets me make sure that each of the sides is the same and if I decide to put designs on the sides (other than the shell composition) it will be a lot easier.

LittleRedWoodshop

09-20-2011, 02:48 PM

Dave ... you can lay it out that way ... it is just a personal preference for me - it kept everything oriented correctly. It is a great project and thank you for permission to "make as many as we would like".

b.sumner47

09-20-2011, 07:47 PM

Jason, Nice work on the sides and top, a nice design. Capt Barry

Ducky63

09-20-2011, 07:54 PM

Hi Dave, Thank you for letting me make some of your boxes & thank you for the measurements & how you done it. One thing though don't hold your beath to see one for awhile, I have other tings that I'm doing. I will post pictures when I get one done. I try to use pine first before I do anything in some other wood. I'll do the top some other way but not sure how right now. Also thank you Jason for posting it. It would make a nice Christmas gift. Happy carving.

ibewiggin

09-24-2011, 02:00 AM

I was just curious if you have received the new cable and motor and if it has solved the heating problem.

dltccf

09-24-2011, 09:03 PM

I was just curious if you have received the new cable and motor and if it has solved the heating problem.

I'm so frustrated right now. They shipped me a new cut motor and a new flex shaft with a sheath that was slightly longer. I was asked to try just the new sheath with the old cut motor first. I installed the new flex shaft and checked everything over and started a test carve. After about 10-15 minutes the sheath got hot enough right at the spot of highest flex that I had to shut it down. I knew that if I had let it continue it would start melting soon. I then disassembled the machine and installed the new cut motor. I checked everything out and restarted the test carve. Everything seemed to be OK except for one thing, the cut motor was running but the bit was not spinning. To isolate where the problem was I pulled the shaft out of the truck and tried a brief restart to see if the the problem was in the motor or shaft or truck. Even not in the truck, the shaft was not spinning. I then disassembled the machine again and checked out the motor and shaft. When I had examined the cut motor earlier to compare it with the old, I did notice that the shaft went in slightly further, but I did not notice that the slot was not square, it was completely round. The shaft spins the bit freely if I spin it from the motor end so I don't think it was the source of the rounding. I put the old motor back in to verify that it would still work just to make sure that my machine hadn't caused the rounding. After putting everything back together, I started to try to carve, but now something seems to be wrong when I crank down the head. When I crank it down it now doesn't crank and then give the two clicks. I am guessing that it is probably dust in the machine that needs cleaned. After I do some searching for cleaning procedure I will try that. Then it looks like I will be calling LHR in Monday.

ibewiggin

09-24-2011, 09:21 PM

dltccf

09-24-2011, 09:45 PM

I am betting you raised the machine too high. It has a feature that if you raise it all the way the crank does not work. The threaded rod on the far side away from the keypad has a hole thru it toward the top where you can place a screwdriver, etc. in it, and manually lower the head a few turns. That will then enable the handle. As for the new flex shaft. Is just the sheath too long or the shaft too? I am hoping to get into mine tomorrow and see how far mine goes into the motor. Please keep me updated. And good luck.

That makes sense, I did crank it up fully during the installs.

As to the flex and sheath. The belief is that the sheath is too short for the shaft so that the shaft can't float freely and that's why it gets hot. Since my old cut motor had slightly less depth the idea was that a slightly longer sheath or a new cut motor would solve the problem. The new sheath was supposed to be 70/1000 longer, but lining the new next to the old I could not tell a difference.

ibewiggin

09-24-2011, 10:08 PM

Yeah that is .07 of an inch. You would not be able to see that by eye. I am in the process of checking the depth that my shaft goes into the motor now. I will be back with results in just a few minutes, hopefully.

ibewiggin

09-24-2011, 10:21 PM

Ok, so I just measured mine using the same procedure, I came up with 9/16 to 5/8 of an inch. Did they say how much the shaft should penetrate into the motor?

ibewiggin

09-24-2011, 10:55 PM

Guess what else I just found, short fluted bit .47498

dltccf

09-25-2011, 07:02 AM

Ok, so I just measured mine using the same procedure, I came up with 9/16 to 5/8 of an inch. Did they say how much the shaft should penetrate into the motor?

I don't remember him saying exactly how long it should be. I measured the new and old and found the difference to be very small, but at least it was detectable, unlike the sheath difference.

ibewiggin

09-25-2011, 10:24 AM

Well I guess, I shall have to call Monday. Hang in there, I have been so frustrated with same problem. Least they are working with you. I am hoping they will work with me now. Maybe, I should try my other flexshaft and see if it melts. I am just glad that there is something to look to other than my error now. Get this thing fixed and maybe I can get that spindle rotary carve. That is amazing.

dltccf

09-25-2011, 04:01 PM

I am betting you raised the machine too high. It has a feature that if you raise it all the way the crank does not work. The threaded rod on the far side away from the keypad has a hole thru it toward the top where you can place a screwdriver, etc. in it, and manually lower the head a few turns. That will then enable the handle. As for the new flex shaft. Is just the sheath too long or the shaft too? I am hoping to get into mine tomorrow and see how far mine goes into the motor. Please keep me updated. And good luck.

That wasn't it, it isn't that it won't crank down. What happens is that as you crank it down and it gets pressure to the point where you normally hear those two satisfying clicks, I am not hearing the clicks. Instead there is a clunking sound like gears slipping.

gapdev

09-25-2011, 04:25 PM

dltccf

09-25-2011, 05:11 PM

Boy, you and I seem to be having all the same problems.

After my meltdown, I cranked the head pretty high up before vacuuming and blowing with air, and my got stuck at the top like you are experiencing. Blowing the rails and the threaded rods off real good made mine start working again. Same problem as you, a couple of clicks, as if it were all the way down.

P.S. Mine too is an "Open Boxed" special. It will be interesting to compare the new machine to this one since it will be here before the new Flexshaft I ordered to replace my melted one.

Kenny

Sorry my description wasn't clear. Mine has never gotten stuck at the top even when I cranked it up all the way just to see if it would. Instead, my problem (well, one of my problems) is when I crank it all the way down. When it gets to the point where it should click I am getting an ugly grinding sound instead.

ibewiggin

09-26-2011, 11:46 AM

Got my parts coming! Looking forward to having both machines up and running! Gonna have a hard time deciding which one to use. Thank you, Connie, Chris, and forum members for dealing with my frustrations with me. Hopefully this will fix it.

dltccf

09-27-2011, 05:10 PM

Still waiting to hear back from LHR, but in the mean time I investigated the crank problem. When I crank down instead of getting the "two clicks" I hear what sounds like gears slipping. I took off the bottom panel and watched what happens when I crank down. I see that the gears where the vertical to horizontal shafts meet are slipping on the crank end of the machine. I don't really see any place to adjust yet. Anyone seen and fixed this yet?

dave

b.sumner47

09-27-2011, 08:49 PM

It sounds like gear underneath the bottom is lose. you have to open it and see if they are lose 2-45 degree gears. If lose tighten snugly, Cannces are your head my be uneven, If that's the case let us know. Capt Barry

dltccf

09-29-2011, 05:59 AM

The horizontal shaft was slightly loose. I tightened it and that portion of things seems to be working now. Connie has sent me another cut motor and when that arrives we will try again with the flex shaft.

dave

It sounds like gear underneath the bottom is lose. you have to open it and see if they are lose 2-45 degree gears. If lose tighten snugly, Cannces are your head my be uneven, If that's the case let us know. Capt Barry

dltccf

10-04-2011, 08:47 PM

Today I received the latest cut motor. Thanks Connie. The first thing I did after what the last one looked like was look at the slot for the flex shaft. It's not completely rounded like the last new one, but it is certainly a lot more rounded than my original. Instead of installing it in the machine I thought I would experiment with it a little. I took a flex shaft and inserted into it to see how it behaved and I noticed a very interesting phenomena. The first time I inserted the shaft into the slot it went in and felt as if it hit a very solid bottom. I measured the depth and it only went in half an inch. That's not good. I inserted it a couple of times and confirmed. The I pulled the shaft out and rotated it 90 degrees and inserted it again. This time it went in almost 3/4 of an inch to solid bottom. I tried it several times back and forth just to make sure and it definitely consistently goes in a half inch one way and almost 3/4 when rotated 90 degrees. Since I now have more than one flex shaft I grabbed another to see how it behaved. Well, it wasn't the shaft. The second shaft was the same: inserted one way it goes in half an inch and turned 90 degrees it goes in almost 3/4. And in both cases it feels like it is hitting bottom.

Now I don't know what to do. Should I put this one in and just mess around with it until I think I have it in the deeper way and hope for the best? Should I send it back the LHR so they can look at it, as this maybe a big clue in the quest to find out why so many are having unexplained overheating shafts? I certainly am going to experiment with the other motors and shafts I now have to see if I can see something similar.

I will report more later as my investigation continues. I will also try to upload some pictures to show just how disappointingly round the square slots the "new" cut motors are.

dave

dltccf

10-05-2011, 02:01 PM

Here is pictures of the two cut motors that I referred to in the previous message.
This one was the first New one they sent: As you can see it was about as round as you can get.
47799
This one is the one that inserts the shaft to different depths depending on which way the shaft is oriented:

47800

dave

dbfletcher

10-05-2011, 02:12 PM

Very interesting info! It good to see you are finally making some progress on this issue. I'm sure it has been a royal PITA for you. And thanks for the continued posting to make this thread as complete as possible. I'm sure it will help many other members out in the future.

dltccf

10-09-2011, 08:19 PM

OK time for an update:

OK, I reexamined all three motors closely Friday night and finally ended up concluding that my original motor was in better condition than either of the two LHR had sent me and that I got no additional depth gain from them either. I reinstalled my original motor and the new flex shaft assembly and started everything up. I have purchased an IR thermometer so that I can get a good reading of the temps from end to end on the system and here is what I got:

Temps were consistent everywhere along the shaft and chuck throughout the whole carve except at the hot point in the middle of the shaft where it bends the most.

Ambient Temp: 67
at cut motor end where it exits the machine: 78
Chuck:116
sheath at chuck end: 109
Along the shaft on both ends until you get within a few inches of the hot spot: mid 80's

hot spot:
at 5 minutes 120
at 10 minutes 145
at 15 minutes 167
at 20 minutes 180
I then shut it down to cool for 20 minutes and restarted
at restart:87
at 5 minutes: 145
at 10 minutes: 170
at 15 minutes: 200
I then shut it down again for 20 minutes to cool and restarted,
at restart: 85
it was following the same temperature path so I set up a fan about 6 inches away from the shaft blowing directly on it and with this it stabilized at 145-150 degrees and I ran the rest of the carve which took about 90 minutes.

I decided to try running it with another carve with the fan to see if I get the "wear in" at 3-5 hours and it will drop down to something I can live with. I did another two carvings and at some point after several hours of carving with the fan on it then went from a stable 150 degrees to 120 degrees. I am still running with the fan for insurance but a consistent 120 degrees seems livable.

LHR contacted me after seeing the photos of the pictures of the two cut motors and has asked for them back so they can examine them. Hopefully we are getting closer to my own machine running smoothly and LHR finding something to help all the others who are having hot shafts.

BTW, I carved a nice pair of letter openers, one for my wife with a horse and her initials on it and another with a horse on both sides for her to give to a friend for a birthday present. (they were both thrilled) And then I carved the old man tree spirit in a piece of rough cut cherry log. I had to build my first sled and it worked out great. Now that I have the sled built I can see lots more options I can try.

dave

dltccf

10-11-2011, 12:45 PM

Last night I tried carving without the fan blowing in it. It shot right back up to 150 degrees and stayed about there long enough that I decided I was uncomfortable with it and turned the fan back on it. At this point I'm not sure whether I should just learn to live with it the way it is or continue to take things apart and put them back together until I hit some magical combination that will bring the temperature down.

dave

gapdev

10-11-2011, 01:02 PM

I think the fan is just covering up the problem. It still exists even with the fan.

Just before my flex shaft melted I put a fan on it and thought everything was fine because it didn't "appear" to get as hot. But, a few minutes later, it melted.

We shouldn't need to have fans blowing on these things. Even though I have one blowing on my new C machine :p

I just this morning had another flex shaft blow up. It didn't melt this time, just came loose at the motor end and fell apart. Either the glue holding the end on wasn't applied correctly or the end got hot and melted the glue. Either way, I ordered a new motor just to be safe and a new shaft. This is getting to be one heck of an expensive hobby.

Kenny

PCW

10-11-2011, 02:11 PM

I have one of those temperamental machines too. It's been that way since new. I've tried everything mentioned here to correct the flex shaft from getting hot but didn't work in my case. When I was using this machine I always had to pause it a few minutes then restart the project.

I have had several other CW machines in the past and all ran fairly cool where you could hold your hand on the cable. I have been lucky and never have melted a flex cable but I don't dare leave it unattended.

dltccf

10-15-2011, 07:17 PM

The saga continues. I thought things were settling down with the new shaft, but about 45 minutes into my latest carve, the happy Halloween cemetery posted the other day, it suddenly went for being about 120 degrees with the fan to being over 150 degrees with the fan. Then, after about another 45 minutes the shaft started vibrating. Not the large wobbles like before but just noisy vibrating and nothing seemed to affect it like the way I could hold it a little and have it settle down. It started getting quite hot on the truck end. The truck wasn't getting that hot, just the shaft. It was getting close to 200 so I started shutting it down to cool every few minutes.

This is very frustrating. If I can ever finish this carve I will have to take everything apart again.

gapdev

10-16-2011, 09:20 AM

Do you have a spare Flexshaft that you can try?

120 deg with a fan seems high.

Kenny

dltccf

10-16-2011, 07:13 PM

well, this explains the vibration. This was an almost brand new shaft.

48109

gapdev

10-16-2011, 08:47 PM

Which end did that come out of?

It looks like it is starting to tie itself into a knot like mine have done.

Kenny

48110

dltccf

10-17-2011, 06:17 AM

That end is the cut motor end.

Which end did that come out of?

It looks like it is starting to tie itself into a knot like mine have done.

Kenny

48110

dltccf

10-17-2011, 10:53 AM

Do you have a spare Flexshaft that you can try?

120 deg with a fan seems high.

Kenny

Yes, I'm on my third flexshaft and they have all run hot. The first two melted the sheaths, but the shafts themselves seem OK to reuse. I will probably try one of them.

lynnfrwd

10-17-2011, 11:10 AM

well, this explains the vibration. This was an almost brand new shaft.

48109

I don't think that shaft could have been that way before you used it for 2 1/2 hours. It would have had an issue immediately.

The first two melted the sheaths, but the shafts themselves seem OK to reuse.
Was this a shaft that had gone through previous issues and reused in a new sheath?

dltccf

10-19-2011, 03:36 PM

This shaft was the new one that you had just shipped to me. It was straight when I installed it. I definitely looked it over before putting it in. It started the vibration about 4 hours after being installed.

I don't think that shaft could have been that way before you used it for 2 1/2 hours. It would have had an issue immediately.

Was this a shaft that had gone through previous issues and reused in a new sheath?

dltccf

10-19-2011, 03:44 PM

Today UPS came and picked up my machine. Connie called me and said LHR would like to examine it directly to see if they can determine the problem. This is the right thing to do on their part and I salute them for it. Hopefully they can get it figured out and it will lead to solving not only my issue, but all those who are having heat issues with their flexshafts.

And I will spend the next few weeks staring at the empty spot in my garage.

dave

gapdev

10-30-2011, 01:50 PM

Have you heard anything back yet? Let us know how your first carve goes when you get the machine back.

Kenny

dltccf

10-30-2011, 08:51 PM

It spent a week in transit and they have had it for a week analyzing it. They replaced the bearings saying that the truck was running hot at about 160 but interestingly for me it ran at around 116 even when the shaft got up to around 200. They said that it is possible that the shaft expanded while hot down into the truck and damaged the bearings. They were supposed to do some test carves Friday and will hopefully ship it out on Monday of all goes well. Then another week in brown trucks and I can start carving again. It has been a long time since August when my shaft problems started. Hopefully it will end soon.

dave

Have you heard anything back yet? Let us know how your first carve goes when you get the machine back.

Kenny

dltccf

11-09-2011, 08:26 PM

The big brown truck arrived at my house Monday afternoon and I am back in business. I used it a little Monday evening and then off and on all day Tuesday. I took the day off from work to play with it. As you might guess I have been closely monitoring the flex shaft temperature. The truck is now consistently running at 106 degrees where before it was running about 116. So that is a slight improvement. The flex shaft started off running around 90 degrees along the whole length except for the hot spot which ran about 120 for the first 7 hours or so. The last carving I did last night took about an hour and the shaft was about 140 degrees at the hot spot over the whole carve.

Tonight I did a single carving that took an hour and 22 minutes. During most of the time it hovered around 150 degrees at the hot spot but ranged from 145 up to 165. So after sending it off for 3 weeks and having it back for two days, sadly I don't seem to be in a much better situation than before.

dave

bergerud

11-09-2011, 09:06 PM

Your situation sounds bizarre. It seems that you have tried every possible variation of parts. Either you are very unlucky or there is something else about your machine which is causing this problem. As I see it, the flex shaft on these machines is pushed to its design limits. Any small deviation of the ideal conditions and it gets hot. A slight compression, a slight kink, and so on. Maybe your motor runs too fast. Do you have the spin down problem we were discussing a few days ago? If your speed controller is shot and your motor runs at full bore, it would cause more heat. Ibewiggin has had flex shaft melt downs and he has the spin down problem. Wild shot in the dark??

gapdev

11-09-2011, 09:24 PM

I've had melted and broken flex shafts and I don't have motor spin problems (at least I don't think I do). My motor stops before the bit hits the plate by the tracking sensor.

Kenny

dltccf

11-10-2011, 12:46 PM

I do not believe I have spin down problems as described in the other thread. Also I can hear the motor speed changing at seemingly appropriate times during carving so I assume that means the speed controller is working.

Furthermore, I would hope that during the week LHR just had my machine they would have been checking for these very things and noticed either of these conditions in their testing.

dave

Your situation sounds bizarre. It seems that you have tried every possible variation of parts. Either you are very unlucky or there is something else about your machine which is causing this problem. As I see it, the flex shaft on these machines is pushed to its design limits. Any small deviation of the ideal conditions and it gets hot. A slight compression, a slight kink, and so on. Maybe your motor runs too fast. Do you have the spin down problem we were discussing a few days ago? If your speed controller is shot and your motor runs at full bore, it would cause more heat. Ibewiggin has had flex shaft melt downs and he has the spin down problem. Wild shot in the dark??

chief2007

11-10-2011, 01:33 PM

Not much luck it seems. With all you have tried, I would try a different lubricant for the flex shaft and see what that does - I don't think you have anything to lose at this point.

Steve

bergerud

11-10-2011, 01:33 PM

Thought it was worth a try. The mystery continues. Keep us posted.

chief2007

11-10-2011, 01:53 PM

Here a previous thread link on a fried flex cable http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?1484-Gunk-Industrial-Chain-Lube-With-Moly-and-fried-cable/page2&highlight=lubricant

A lot of the folks said to try Cranes Cam Lube.

dltccf

11-10-2011, 01:55 PM

Not much luck it seems. With all you have tried, I would try a different lubricant for the flex shaft and see what that does - I don't think you have anything to lose at this point.

Steve

The only thing to lose is I am still under warranty and I read in the lubrication manual that using anything other than the liquid wrench with moly will void the warranty. If I can get an OK from LHR I would be happy to try that. Anyone from LHR want to weigh in?

dave

dltccf

11-10-2011, 02:01 PM

The only thing to lose is I am still under warranty and I read in the lubrication manual that using anything other than the liquid wrench with moly will void the warranty. If I can get an OK from LHR I would be happy to try that. Anyone from LHR want to weigh in?

dave

BTW, here is the paragraph from the service manual on page 4:

Lubricating the Flexshaft Core
To properly lubricate the Flexshaft Core you will need an approved lubricant: Use only
Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube (with moly) or Gunk Industrial Chain Lube (with
moly). We have found that a penetrating lubricant containing solid molybdenum
disulfide particles (moly) yields superior results.

You can think of the moly particles as millions of tiny ball bearings that penetrate the
internal windings of the flexshaft. This lubricant is available at most Ace Hardware
stores under the names of Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube (with moly) and Gunk
Industrial Chain Lube with Moly. Using any other unapproved lubricant will void the
warranty and can potentially cause damage to the machine.

bergerud

11-10-2011, 02:02 PM

dltccf

11-10-2011, 02:13 PM

It could be that there are variations in cores and you are just unlucky. I would like to see you try your core in someone else's known to be good machine or, better yet, someone else's known to be good core in your machine. Such a controlled experiment is required to determine if it is the core or not.

I could be unlucky, I could have gotten 4 completely different entire assemblies (shaft. spring and sheaf) that were all bad. But that is taking unlucky even beyond my normal unlucky :-)

dave

chkorte

11-10-2011, 03:56 PM

I don’t know if i can be of any help with your flex shaft overheating problem but i’ll throw in my 2 cents worth. When i lube my flex shaft i start by putting the liquid wrench chain lube in the outer housing. I spray it in a small container and pour it in. After i think i have the housing about one third full i put in a good squirt of competiton cams pro cam lube in each end of the housing and follow it up with a little more liquid wrench. Then i put the spring and flex shaft in and fill the housing the rest of the way full with liquid wrech and let it sit for 3 or 4 hours. Then i take the spring and flex shaft out and hang them somewhere to dry. Then i drain the housing and let it sit and drip dry overnight with one end hanging down. Next day i install the housing and put in the spring. Before i install the flex shaft i mix a couple drops of liquid wrench with a couple drops of competiton cams pro cam lube and then as i install the flex shaft i dab my finger tip in the mixture and wipe it on the flex shaft as i feed it in to the housing. Then i finish hooking everything up. I have used an infrared thermometer to check the flex shaft temperature while it is running and never get a reading higher than the low 90’s. Don’t ask me where i bought the competiton cams pro cam lube because i’ve had it for years. I bought it at an auto parts store. Competiton cams pro cam lube is a red liquid the consistency of 90 weight gear lube. Best of luck happy carving

chief2007

11-10-2011, 04:08 PM

I hear ya on the warranty issue - will keep my fingers crossed - Would be nice if LHR / Carvewright would just send you a new machine for all the trouble you are having with this one.

dltccf

11-10-2011, 04:29 PM

If you can find anyone brave (perhaps another adjective would be better) enough to send me their known good flexshaft to put into my version of Charlie Brown's kite eating tree then I would gladly do so.

dave

It could be that there are variations in cores and you are just unlucky. I would like to see you try your core in someone else's known to be good machine or, better yet, someone else's known to be good core in your machine. Such a controlled experiment is required to determine if it is the core or not.

lynnfrwd

11-10-2011, 04:32 PM

I'm not ignoring you, just waiting for the engineer to look up the specs on the Crane Cams Super Moly Lube and let me know....

lynnfrwd

11-10-2011, 05:49 PM

Engineer said he felt the viscosity of the Crane Cams Super Moly Lube appears to be too high. He doesn't believe that it has the penetrating ability that is needed to get inside the shaft. Therefore, he cannot suggest it, although a dab (as Al Who?!?!) always suggests on the center point would not hurt it. Keep in mind whatever you use, needs to have the moly, and not be grease or oil-based, which causes heat.

chkorte's method scared me a little because it sounds like overkill and I'm afraid that his bearings might get subjected to over lubrication, but it seems to be working for him. It also sounds like with the combination of the two it works for him.

The warranty is what it is for legal reasons to protect us and you. We have approved Liquid Wrench & Gunk based on our testing and experience with those products, their specifications and qualities. Using any other brand of moly-based penetrating lubricant may not void your entire machine warranty. It could be a determining factor, if there was a question about whether or not we should replace your flexshaft, but a flexshaft is not covered under warranty anyway. If you use a non-approved product with the wrong chemical composition and it not only melts your flexshaft, but combusts and ruins your machine, garage or woodshop, then I'd say that would warrant voiding your entire warranty!

TerryT

11-10-2011, 05:51 PM

I haven't read this whole thread... too lazy. I will put in my two cents however. Do NOT use Gunk chain lube with molly. The formula has recently changed and there isn't enough molly in it to lube the high speed flex shaft any more. The old stuff was dark in color because of the molly. The new stuff is clear. Just about any ENGINE ASSEMBLY LUBE with molly will work great. Crane cam lube is the best but is expensive and hard to fine. Just go to your local auto parts place and get a small container ($3 or $4 bucks) of the Assembly LUBE with molly (black in color). I have been using if for quite a while and my flex shaft doesn't get over ambient temp.

Assuming your warranty is up that is.

lynnfrwd

11-10-2011, 06:10 PM

Thanks Terry! I will let our engineers know this.

dltccf

11-11-2011, 12:26 PM

Is LHR using the new lube with the inadequate amount of moly? Is it possible this could be why my shafts newly lubed from the factory are having a problem? Terry, when did the formula change?

I haven't read this whole thread... too lazy. I will put in my two cents however. Do NOT use Gunk chain lube with molly. The formula has recently changed and there isn't enough molly in it to lube the high speed flex shaft any more. The old stuff was dark in color because of the molly. The new stuff is clear. Just about any ENGINE ASSEMBLY LUBE with molly will work great. Crane cam lube is the best but is expensive and hard to fine. Just go to your local auto parts place and get a small container ($3 or $4 bucks) of the Assembly LUBE with molly (black in color). I have been using if for quite a while and my flex shaft doesn't get over ambient temp.

Assuming your warranty is up that is.

dltccf

11-11-2011, 12:50 PM

I tried another carving last night and the trend is continuing. It was another hour and a half carve and the hot spot was between 160 to 175 degrees. So another 10 degrees bump each night. It also started making a horrible vibrational noise off and on while running. I made a carving that called for a vector bit carving a rectangle around it, just to see if using a different bit would expose something bit related. It made the vibrational noise both with the carving bit and the other but just making a 7x15 rectangle wasn't long enough to see if the temperature changed with a different bit.

Before the carve I pulled out the shaft and spring and looked it over. I didn't find any burrs or kinks on either the shaft or spring. Then I flipped it end for end and reinserted it. It was late when the carving finished so I went to bed without pulling and reexamining the shaft. I will do that this evening when I get home from work.

I'm not sure where to go from here, if the temp jumps up another 10 degrees I will be in the melting range so I'm not sure how much experimenting I can do. I am interested to hear whether LHR finds out they were unknowingly using the changed formula for the lube and whether they think some of the high moly assembly lube would be worth a try?

dave

bergerud

11-11-2011, 01:41 PM

According to the new "Care of the CW Flexshaft" pdf:

"To get the lubrication where it needs to be, which is between the metal windings, the flexshaft
core is lubricated with graphite during the “winding” process during manufacturing. This is why
the core appears as dry and un-lubricated when you receive it. Since the flexshaft is lubricated
internally during production, lubricating the flexshaft should be a last resort."

So I do not think they use lube with moly at all.

TerryT

11-11-2011, 01:45 PM

I may have mis-spoke. The last two cans I got were clear and my flex shaft kept over heating. In fact it melted the rubber off the outside. This FS was a year old at the time and had never overheated before. The lube in both brand new spray cans was clear (compared to the old stuff). It could be they just forgot to put the molly in that batch, but I don't think so. Thus, my assumption that the formula changed. Also it is very difficult to find where it says "molly" on the can.

HOWERVER, if you use the engine assembly lube with molly and the FS gets hot, you need to look for another source of your problem. If there is a bent strand on the tips or anything else that keeps your FS from seating all the way it WILL GET HOT. The FS MUST seat fully into both the cut motor and the spindle.

liquidguitars

11-11-2011, 01:54 PM

Pull the flex core out hold each end of the flex core and twist clockwise and counter clockwise does the core “winding” move or is it solid? a core that moves is about worn.

I'm on my third flexshaft and they have all run hot. The first two melted the sheaths, but the shafts themselves seem OK to reuse. I will probably try one of them.

you should go with all new parts as the fix including new carbide. Also a dull bit or bad spindel can heatup a shaft, check your carving bit it could be defective also post your MPC here I like to look at it.

I have more hrs on my machine than most here and never lost a shaft do to heat I used all types of oil including 3n1 without issues all day.

One thing I do that is not in the docs is we clean the shaft and core with paint thinner to remove the gunk about 100 hrs of carving.

b.sumner47

11-11-2011, 03:56 PM

I can't add to much to that. I do keep a small fan on the shaft when I carve, Works great for me.

Capt Barry

dltccf

11-11-2011, 04:56 PM

The only thing I haven't changed is the bit. I don't even have 100 hours on it yet. How long do they typically last? I have carved mostly pine and a little bit of oak and walnut. I have looked at the bit and I don't see any obvious defects. What should I be looking for?

If the bit was dull or defective would it heat the shaft close to spindle? Neither the spindle not the shaft near it get hot. My hot spot is only in the middle. The rest of the shaft doesn't get that hot and all 4 of them got hot in the same spot.

Pull the flex core out hold each end of the flex core and twist clockwise and counter clockwise does the core “winding” move or is it solid? a core that moves is about worn.

you should go with all new parts as the fix including new carbide. Also a dull bit or bad spindel can heatup a shaft, check your carving bit it could be defective also post your MPC here I like to look at it.

I have more hrs on my machine than most here and never lost a shaft do to heat I used all types of oil including 3n1 without issues all day.

One thing I do that is not in the docs is we clean the shaft and core with paint thinner to remove the gunk about 100 hrs of carving.

AskBud

11-11-2011, 05:04 PM

lynnfrwd

11-11-2011, 05:36 PM

dltccf

11-11-2011, 09:58 PM

Try changing the bit. It could have the very tip broken off or something.

We use the Liquid Wrench with moly.

Both founders of the company and head engineer tested your machine for quite a few hours (4+ I think they said) and it never got over 120º here. No abnormal vibrating.

If you have another new carving bit, try that.

I tried two things this evening. I picked up some assembly lube with Moly on the way home from work and I put a tiny little dab in the middle of the shaft where it gets hot. I then started up the machine and just as it started to carve, I stopped it and removed the bit. I let it run its air carve for about 40 minutes. It took about 10 minutes to warm up from ambient (58) to 120 degrees. It then varied between 120 and 130 for the next half hour. I also noticed that the extra vibration was no longer present. I then stopped the machine and inserted the bit back in and restarted the project from the beginning. The temperature started at 110 (I didn't let it cool back to 58) and went up to 125 over a couple of minutes and then varied between 125 and 135 while the whole project carved in about an hour. So, either a slight variation in the insertion of the shaft made this time different that every other time, or the tiny dab of assembly lube made the difference. I am assuming that the 5 degree difference with and without the bit means the bit is not my problem. I did a little goggling on what Terry had to say about his experience with Gunk chain lube with moly earlier today, and discovered that indeed they did change their formulation in November of 2009. http://www.liquidwrench.com/pressroom/releases/pressreleases_detail.asp?r=1 For those who don't know, Gunk brand and Liquid Wrench brand are the same. I think it was liquid wrench that bought Gunk. The new label no longer has Moly in big letters on the front of the can like it used to, so the likelihood that they greatly reduced the amount is pretty high.

While I'm thinking that while 120-130 degrees while aircarving is still a little high it is much better than it was. Perhaps I should try a regular sized dab in the middle instead of a tiny dab. If liquid wrench no longer is what it used to be then that would certainly explain why it seemed OK when tested at LHR but started to creep up in temperature after only a few more hours use. It could also mean that as LHR uses up its old stock of lube and buys more cans of the new formula they could see a whole lot more people having the same experience as me.

dave

lynnfrwd

11-11-2011, 10:18 PM

I did see moly on the front of the can we use, but it was been removed to the back of the can. See PDF on lubricating photo of the newer cans.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bergerud

11-11-2011, 10:35 PM

According to the new "Care of the CW Flexshaft" pdf, new flex shafts are not lubricated with the moly chain lube but are shipped with graphite in the shaft. Is that not right? Does LHR now use the moly chain lube on new shafts? In the pdf, we are advised not to lubricate the flex shaft except as a last resort. It sounds like a mixed message here. When you say "We use the Liquid Wrench with moly", you must mean on old flex shafts when they start to get hot. Is that right?

liquidguitars

11-11-2011, 11:08 PM

According to the new "Care of the CW Flex shaft" pdf, new flex shafts are not lubricated with the Molly chain lube but are shipped with graphite in the shaft. Is that not right? Does LHR now use the Molly chain lube on new shafts? In the pdf, we are advised not to lubricate the flex shaft except as a last resort. It sounds like a mixed message here. When you say "We use the Liquid Wrench with Molly", you must mean on old flex shafts when they start to get hot. Is that right?

If you read what you posted above you will see that it does not matter what lube you are using. We have tested different types of oil for over three years without issue. So as far as we know the molly oil was just to keep the old RMP sensor from decomposing under a solvent base, so it goes back to testing in the real world as stated.

you must mean on old flex shafts when they start to get hot. Is that right?

I lube.... When the core starts making a metallic sound I pop the connection and visually look to see if its shiny. If i see it looking bright I address the condition.

bergerud

11-11-2011, 11:35 PM

Sorry LG, I was really asking Connie if LHR had changed their flex shaft lubrication strategy. There is a suggestion here to lube a new flex shaft with moly.

gapdev

11-30-2011, 04:59 PM

How are things going with this?

Has your Flexshaft cooled off any?

Kenny

Digitalwoodshop

11-30-2011, 06:10 PM

I have a WILD AL GUESS Suggestion for anyone having the problem of the wildly flopping Flex Shaft....

There is a Theory that some Cut Motors don't have the slot for the flex shaft cut deep enough... Heard in passing but have not seen it yet... The Theory is that in this case the Flex shaft is slightly too long... Only because of the Motor Hole...... Like holding a tooth pick between your fingers and seeing it flex as you squeeze... THIS could be happening to the VERY FEW who are having this problem....

My Suggestion and IT is only a Suggestion and I don't take responsibility for any damage to YOUR machine.... Since this is JUST a THEORY but COULD solve your problem....

My Un Authorized Fix is.... Remove the Top Hat with the 2 Screws and find a standard thickness flat washer and place it over the end of the Top Hat and mark the Screw Holes. Drill the Holes and re Assemble with the Washer Spacer on the Top Hat.

That will place less length stress on the Core between the truck and motor..... Watch the machine VERY Careful.... Be ready to STOP it and return the machine back to Authorized Configuration as in removing the Washer....

This fix is for only the EXTREME Flopping Around of the Flex after all other options have been explored...

Cleaning the inside of the Flex shaft should have been done before this Theory Fix is tried... A .22 Rifle Cleaning Rod has been reported to work nice to clean out the "Snot" in the Flex Shaft...

After installing the washer turn the chuck by hand and be sure the core in engaged on both sides.... and turning the cut motor.

Doing this spacer on a machine that is normal could make the flex shaft turn into a drilling bit in the top of the Truck as it is not engaged far enough.... USE CAUTION....

And to further make this safer for the machine... After Bit Measurement the first time, REMOVE the BIT and do the carving without a bit to see what the Flex Shaft Does....

AL Who

gapdev

11-30-2011, 06:57 PM

Cleaning the inside of the Flex shaft should have been done before this Theory Fix is tried... A .22 Rifle Cleaning Rod has been reported to work nice to clean out the "Snot" in the Flex Shaft...

Boy don't I know it.

I bought a Rifle Cleaning "snake" and couldn't believe the crap that came out of a new Flexshaft.

About your "shortening" the core theory:

I think Carvewright is already doing this. On new flexshafts, the sheath is longer, in effect making the core shorter?

All I know is that the core does not stick out as far on newer shafts as it did on my older shaft that melted. I was concerned that this might be a problem but was told on the phone that its fine, that's the way the newer shafts are.

I think this is what you are saying to do, provide more space between motor and spindle so the core doesn't rub so hard against the bend in the sheath? I *think* that is what the newer flexshafts are attempting to do but I dunno.

The "Care" doc says there should be about 5/8" sticking out of both ends. This is not the way brand new Flexshafts are. The core isn't long enough to stick out that much on both ends.

After Bit Measurement the first time, REMOVE the BIT and do the carving without a bit to see what the Flex Shaft Does....

I've done that several times. The shaft still gets warm.

My big worry now isn't so much of a meltdown since the last software fix now allows you to pause the machine without encountering an error, but with brand new Flexshafts falling apart. The motor end on my last one just twisted off and I ended up with a knotted core.

By the way, there is yet another new release of the Chain Lube. I ordered a new batch last week and the can is completely different than the last two releases. Same number, just a different looking can. I'll post a picture tomorrow in the other thread about this.

Kenny

dltccf

01-03-2012, 08:54 PM

Time for an update. After receiving the machine back from LHR I performed a few carves and it was performing pretty much like it had from the start. It started out around 115-120 degrees and gradually got a few degrees hotter with each carve, when I did my last carve back before Christmas, it was up to running around 150 degrees. I was so frustrated that I couldn't even go in the garage and look at it. Then, unsolicited, I got a message from chief2007 saying he was sending me a can of lubricant that was like the "old formula" liquid wrench. I received it in the mail the yesterday and took out my shaft and put it in a plastic baggie and sprayed it with the new lube. What a difference in color, this was black nasty looking stuff compared to the "new formula" liquid wrench which looks and acts like WD40. After spraying, I left it soak for a day and then this evening took it out and wiped it lightly and put it in the machine with great anticipation. My garage/shop is about 50 degrees now so I thought I might have some of the other problems that people have been describing when it is too cold, but I didn't. It measured the board and then started carving. My first thought when it started to carve was, "Oh crap, I must not have hooked it up correctly" because it wasn't making near enough noise, but I blinked a few times and rubbed my eyes to make sure the bit was going around and it was carving. It was carving and it was so quiet. Unbelievable the difference. It carved for an hour and the shaft never even got up to 90 degrees, my hand was warmer than the shaft. Let me repeat...my hand was warmer than the shaft.

So here is a big shout out to Chief2007, the stuff you sent me is downright amazing. It is like I just got a whole different machine. The change in sound level and temperature level is unbelievable. I will continue to monitor and update, but for the moment I couldn't be happier. Even if you aren't having temperature issues with your shaft, if you are using a shaft as shipped from LHR go get yourself some Cyclo Moly and Graphite Chain Lube. The noise level difference alone is worth it.

dave

Ike

01-03-2012, 09:05 PM

Always good advice to lube the flex when new and updates from LHR! Did you have the CT installed? When I bought my "C" CW the first thing I did was lube the flex, however I noticed the CT was really hot! I thought oh know I put too much moly on the flex! Nope the CT runs hot until it breaks in and will transfer heat to the flex. I use moly lube I bought from Napa Auto parts it comes in a tube like tooth paste, but is pure moly lube. I too checked the flex gave it some more let set and wiped and like you a cool flex!

So glad you didn't wait too long before the flex housing melted.....I have, but that's another story!!!! :)

Ike

lynnfrwd

01-03-2012, 09:21 PM

"wiped it lightly" really concerns me. Too much lube is just as bad as not enough. It will ruin your bearings.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ike

01-03-2012, 09:28 PM

"wiped it lightly" really concerns me. Too much lube is just as bad as not enough. It will ruin your bearings.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what I like about the moly in the tube from Napa Auto. It is thick and I lay the flex on a piece of card board, then apply and roll the flex to cover. Let it set and wipe. Not too much or too less! Guess until it looks right! Works for me!!!

Rick

gapdev

01-03-2012, 09:32 PM

chief2007

01-04-2012, 06:32 AM

Here is the link below where I got it from. Only problem is you have to but 6.

Follow the same procedures you would for using Liquid Wrench.

I have 2 machines - one I soak the flex shaft and wiped lightly and installed, the other I soaked, wiped and air dried. Both machines have been run for several hours and neither machine has any of the lube in the bearing areas. Temps run 80s-90s throughout the shaft. I have the old liquid wrench and this product works as well or better.

This is a molly graphite product I have 4 cans left if anyone is interested. Cost, plus shipping PM me if interested.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XZHC4G/ref=ox_ya_os_producthttp://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCq1OyZ63AxvtGo&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51mfO61vP%2BL._SL160_.jp g (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XZHC4G/ref=ox_ya_os_product)Cyclo C-661 Heavy Duty Chain and Cable Lube - 11 oz., (Pack of 6) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XZHC4G/ref=ox_ya_os_product)

www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/)Moly and Graphite Chain and Cable Lube penetrates, coats and protects chain, bar and wire rope lubricant. Extra cling to reduce sling-off and friction with a unique blend of lubricants fortified with molybdenum disulfide and graphite. Use for chains, bards, wire ropes, cables, pulleys, sprockets,...

chebytrk

01-04-2012, 06:37 AM

do you have a pic of that tube from NAPA? I think I might look for some of that.

Always good advice to lube the flex when new and updates from LHR! Did you have the CT installed? When I bought my "C" CW the first thing I did was lube the flex, however I noticed the CT was really hot! I thought oh know I put too much moly on the flex! Nope the CT runs hot until it breaks in and will transfer heat to the flex. I use moly lube I bought from Napa Auto parts it comes in a tube like tooth paste, but is pure moly lube. I too checked the flex gave it some more let set and wiped and like you a cool flex!

So glad you didn't wait too long before the flex housing melted.....I have, but that's another story!!!! :)

Ike

dltccf

01-04-2012, 08:01 AM

That's what I like about the moly in the tube from Napa Auto. It is thick and I lay the flex on a piece of card board, then apply and roll the flex to cover. Let it set and wipe. Not too much or too less! Guess until it looks right! Works for me!!!

Rick

Agreed, there was no excess. It looked like I didn't need to wipe it, but I did anyway.

dltccf

01-04-2012, 08:10 AM

Do you have the full name and part number? Where to buy? A picture of the can?

My Molly is the stuff recommended by LHR and it is grey/black and nasty. What Molly where you using?

I'm with Connie. The "wipe it lightly" could turn out to be a problem. Check the top hat on the Z-Truck. Make sure no black nasty stuff shows up there.

Kenny

The trouble with the stuff recommended by LHR is that they changed the formula. If you go to the store and buy a can of Liquid Wrench Chain Lube it is no longer black and nasty. I have a can of it that I bought recently and it now looks like WD40. It is runny clear and drippy like WD40. I will use it only where I would have used WD40. For lubricating my shaft I will use the Cyclo. It works and the Liquid wrench (new formula) doesn't.

dave

gapdev

01-06-2012, 04:05 PM

There are now 3 different versions of Liquid Wrench Chain Lube. 3 different cans, and I'm using the first version so don't know how different the formula is in the other 2 versions but will check. I'll take some pictures of the 3 cans.

I have the Crane Cams Lube CRN-99002-1.

You can get it here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99002-1/

I tried it and it didn't make my shaft run any cooler, but I'm gonna give it another try.

I bought some of the Cyclo C-661 Heavy Duty Chain and Cable Lube. Haven't received it yet, don't even know if they shipped it since they don't provide order tracking.

I can't vouch for them since I haven't received the order yet, but you can order in single can quantities:

http://www.pststore.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2412

(http://www.pststore.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2412)But, since Dave and I seem to have the same problem with our Flexshafts, I'm anxious to try out the new stuff and see how it works.

Kenny

DickB

01-06-2012, 05:37 PM

It may not be the flex cable.

Mine used to vibrate quite a bit, since day one. I also had a problem with oval holes, when drilling 1/8" holes. Turned out that cleaning and lubricating the x and y rail bearings, and getting the preload correct on them, cured the oval hole problem. It also made my vibrating flex a thing of the past

Thinking about it, if the spindle is not running true, as a bit is moving it is likely to bite hard and then not so hard, due to wobble or out-of round condition. This will load and unload the flex cable to a degree, and that could cause it to vibrate. I believe that this is what was happening in my case. In any case, I did not change cable or lube, but the vibration stopped after working on the rail bearings.

Ton80

01-13-2012, 07:14 AM

I read this whole thread because I'm waiting on a new FlexShaft ( the whole set up ) to arrive. My flex shaft has been running quite cool for the last year after lubing it. ( I'll have to dig up the can but I bought it from a local Polaris dealer and they had to special order it for me ).

I find it a little concerning the confusion that seems to be spreading about when/if to lube the new flexshafts and what you should use. I know the can of lube I bought is a dark grey and quite thick and a little sticky. If the lube that LHR is recommending has changes it'a foruml so drastically why are they still recommending it? And, maybe it's time that LHR consider selling an officially tested and approved formula through their website to avoid all this confusion in the first place ;)

dltccf

02-23-2012, 07:44 PM

I was just watching my machine carve this evening and am just amazed at the difference since I used the lube that I got from chief2007. The machine is so much smoother and quieter and most of all the flex shaft is barely above room temperature. It has been carving away for a couple of hours and I just keep being amazed. I was so frustrated by the problems it was having and then got the unsolicited gift and it made and unbelievable difference. Thanks again, Steve. You and others here like you are what make this community and machine so useful.

dave

DickB

02-23-2012, 07:56 PM

I have a couple of observations regarding the flex shaft.

Mine recently snapped. I had read from other posts that the flex shaft core was no longer available as a separate part. This is not the case. AFTER I ordered a complete assembly, I called and was told the inner core, the spring, and the sheath can all be obtained separately.

When I got the replacement assembly, I was set to pull and lube the core, but then read the "Preventative Maintenance - Care & Maintenance of the Flexshaft (http://www.carvewright.com/2010CWweb/support/2011-Flexshaft.pdf)" document on the CW site. Here is an excerpt:

Care of the CarveWright Flexshaft
Update August 25, 2011
About the Flexshaft used in the CarveWright System:
The flexshaft sheath (black outer casing) and flexshaft core (gold metal internal flexshaft core
with square ends) are made in the USA by one of the best flexshaft companies in the world. It
is tested for overheating at the factory and, again, by our technicians at LHR’s facility.
Lubrication of the Flexshaft:
To get the lubrication where it needs to be, which is between the metal windings, the flexshaft
core is lubricated with graphite during the “winding” process during manufacturing. This is why
the core appears as dry and un-lubricated when you receive it. Since the flexshaft is lubricated
internally during production, lubricating the flexshaft should be a last resort. There are some
occasions that the flexshaft needs to be lubricated, but it should not be the first thing you look at
when a flexshaft starts to overheat. You must first determine if there is another cause for the
overheating. Never should the flexshaft be lubricated on any kind of schedule; such as weekly,
monthly, quarterly, and especially not daily or between projects.

So, OK, I decided not to lube it, but I would keep an eye on it. All has been well (for a few weeks), but today after a 3-hour carve, the sheath was very hot and in fact has melted a bit right at the end of the metal spring support. I never had that happen while I was keeping it lubed (probably every 200 hours or so). I lubed it with Gunk Chain lube with Moly and it ran fine. I guess I will continue to lube it when it gets warm in spite of the factory directions.

bergerud

02-23-2012, 08:38 PM

I believe that LHR has changed their tune on flex shaft lubrication. If I remember correctly, Connie has said recently that LHR now lubricates the flex shafts on new machines going out; just to make sure.

gapdev

02-23-2012, 08:56 PM

Dick,

I've had to replace 3 shafts recently, and even though they are supposedly "lubed at the factory" I lube my new ones anyway.

This time around, I'm using the Cyclo C-661 Heavy Duty Chain and Cable Lube. I bought a case of it from Amazon. Let me tell you, this stuff is totally unlike the Gunk Chain Lube. This stuff is thick. It's a cross between the Gunk liquid and the Crane Cams Assembly Lube. It foams and expands and gets deep inside the core and stays there. I made a holder out of 1/2 plastic pipe and filled it with the Cyclo. You have to fill the pipe slowly because the Cyclo expands and overflows. I let the cores soak for a day then I let them dry for a day then wipe off the excess. While drying, there is no dripping because this stuff is so thick (unlike the gunk).

LHR really should check out the Cyclo Lube. They may want to start using it instead of the Gunk which is now more like WD-40 than the stuff LHR originally used.

Of course, the real test is carving one of your one piece dials ;)

Kenny

henry1

02-23-2012, 09:46 PM

Since I have been using this liguid wrench chain lube with moly I had my flex shaft for 3 years now no problem lube it every 100 hrs here a pic of it its pricy a bit but works like 12 dollars a can

lynnfrwd

02-23-2012, 10:54 PM

That is the correct can. Industrial with molybdenum disulfide.

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lawrence

02-23-2012, 11:39 PM

Connie- your PM's are full--

Lawrence

lynnfrwd

02-23-2012, 11:59 PM

Connie- your PM's are full--

Lawrence

Not surprised. I'll get rid of some.

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lynnfrwd

02-24-2012, 12:04 AM

Evidently, I'm not smart enough or it's not possible to delete some of them using tap-a-talk. Send me a message at sales@

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gapdev

02-24-2012, 08:35 AM

The problem with the Liquid Wrench is they have apparently changed the formula.

I have the L716 in 3 different colored cans. Each one has a different formula.

Kenny

bergerud

02-24-2012, 09:27 AM

Is the can Henry showed a picture of the stuff that has changed for the worse? Is the change just less moly? Henry's can is what I now see in the stores replacing what I use.

chief2007

02-24-2012, 09:30 AM

What Henry shows in his picture is the CORRECT Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube with Molly. Not the reformulated chain lube that is now on the market.

mtylerfl

02-24-2012, 10:54 AM

The problem with the Liquid Wrench is they have apparently changed the formula.

I have the L716 in 3 different colored cans. Each one has a different formula.

Kenny

Hello,

For what it's worth, after reading about all the confusion about formulas of Liquid Wrench Chain Lube, etc., I was prompted to call the manufacturer to get the story straight from them. I was connected to the Senior Chemist, Robert Geer.

I explained to him that some folks felt the new formula of Chain Lube was not effective as the old formula. Robert said that's not possible. He mentioned as an aside, that anytime they simply change a label graphic design, people will call in to say "the old formula" worked better (even in cases where there is no new formula!).

Now, as far as the Liquid Wrench Chain Lube with Moly...there has been a formula change - for the better. It uses CLEAR MOLY instead of the old BLACK MOLY. Less messy and the new MOLY is superior to the old. Here is a copy of the email he sent to me, after our phone coversation...

- - - - - - - - - -

"Mike,

Attached is the label for the new Liquid Wrench Chain Lube, L711 which is a replacement for the Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube, L716. The new formula does not have the chlorinated solvent, but does have a better, more refined, synthetic clear moly. It is an improved formula.

Regards,

Robert D. Geer
Senior Chemist
RSC Chemical Solutions"

- - - - - - - - - -

Notice that the comparable new product to the "old one" is #L711! I have included a couple graphics below, so you can easily see what can to buy. Robert explained to me on the phone that the old formula was over 20 years old and contained "perc" (not sure of the spelling or what that is). To meet environmental regulations, the solvent was changed along with the superior, more refined, synthetic clear moly. So, as long as you purchase the L711 can, your performance of the product will be the same or better.

Bigtyme

02-24-2012, 11:08 AM

Thanks for the info, Mike. It is much appreciated. I just picked up a can with the label as you have shown and hope to put it to the test this weekend.

lynnfrwd

02-24-2012, 05:02 PM

gapdev

02-24-2012, 06:04 PM

please feel free to tell us what you are using, your success and where you purchase it from

Cyclo C-661 Heavy Duty Chain and Cable Lube

6 can case from Amazon. $39.06

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XZHC4G/

Carved a 4 hour project today, cable was 80 - 110 degrees with the 110 degrees right at the wire loop at the bend of the cable.

Kenny

gapdev

02-24-2012, 06:10 PM

Connie,

I have the L716 in 3 different cans. They are all the same part number, but they have different ingredients.

So, the "chemist" can say what he wants, the formula is not the same.

Kenny

lynnfrwd

02-24-2012, 06:13 PM

Connie,

I have the L716 in 3 different cans. They are all the same part number, but they have different ingredients.

So, the "chemist" can say what he wants, the formula is not the same.

Kenny

Are the all moly disulfide or do any off them say organic moly?

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gapdev

02-24-2012, 06:26 PM

All 3 are Molybdenum disulfide (1317-33-5) but the ingredients are listed in a different order (if that matters) and the other ingredients vary.

The Cyclo contains the same Moly (with same number).

Kenny

Smoken D

02-24-2012, 06:31 PM

I found the old stuff (PL711) at a BIG LOTS store a few months back. A few others also found the old stuff there.

dltccf

02-24-2012, 07:16 PM

Cyclo C-661 Heavy Duty Chain and Cable Lube

6 can case from Amazon. $39.06

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XZHC4G/

Carved a 4 hour project today, cable was 80 - 110 degrees with the 110 degrees right at the wire loop at the bend of the cable.

Kenny

I emphatically second the cyclo. It works beautifully and the liquid wrench #711 does not.

dave

gapdev

02-24-2012, 07:21 PM

Cans 1, 2, & 3 are of Gunk Liquid Wrench, part #L716,

All contain Molybdenum disulfide with ingredients listed in a different order.

Can 1 contains Naphthenic Oil, can 2 contains Stearic Acid and Naphthenic Oil. Other ingredients are the same.

Can 3 contains Methylene Chloride and Stearic Acid and Naphthenic Oil.

All 3 cause Cancer in California.

Can 4 has no Cancer warning.

51500

lynnfrwd

02-24-2012, 08:42 PM

All 3 cause Cancer in California.

Thank goodness I live in Texas, then. ;)

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dltccf

02-24-2012, 11:12 PM

Thank goodness I live in Texas, then. ;)

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I LOL'ed, that was just too funny.

chief2007

02-25-2012, 07:13 AM

As a user of the cyclo, just make sure when your use the Cyclo that you follow the same procedures as when using the liquid wrench.

Soak the core, then wipe off any excess, and then let it air dry. Same as if using the liquid wrench.

I have used the flex core just soaking and wiping off the excess lube, but had a little lube build up in the hat I had to clean out. So Soak, wipe and dry and you should have no problems

mtylerfl

02-25-2012, 09:41 AM

We were also under the impression that the new formula was as good as, or better, than the older formula, but in our testing we have now determined that the L711 Liquid Wrench Chain Lube (notice NO "Industrial") with organic molybdenum is NOT AS EFFECTIVE as the L716 Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube containing molybdenum disulfide.

We do not suggest using the newer formula Liquid Wrench Chain Lube #L711. Problem is, most of the stores now carry the L711; not the L716.

There are other brands than the Liquid Wrench, just make sure that it is molybdenum disulfide. We will also try to come up with other suggestions and locations as to where to buy.

If you are already using something else, please feel free to tell us what you are using, your success and where you purchase it from.

Thanks

Connie,

I have the L716 in 3 different cans. They are all the same part number, but they have different ingredients.

So, the "chemist" can say what he wants, the formula is not the same.

Kenny

That is very interesting, to say the least. Robert (the Chemist) was super emphatic that the new formula was better (or at least as good) compared to the old formula. I should probably forward the link to this thread to him, so he can see for himself what is being said and experienced. I am very surprised to know that LHR is not recommending the L711, but if in-house testing has indeed proven that it is not as good as the older L716, well, I trust that evaluation! I own just a single can of L716 and have only used it three times in five years to lube my flexshafts (one machine lubed once...the other machine lubed twice). At this rate, I anticipate it will last me the rest of my life!

Kenny...to clarify once again, Robert never said the formula was the same...he said it was as good or better. Yes, the formulas are different.

bergerud

02-25-2012, 10:44 AM

It sounds like the old L716 formula uses organic molybdenum disulphide where as the new L711 uses synthetic molybdenum disulphide. For most applications, it may be true that the synthetic stuff is superior. There probably is a good reason why, for our very specific need, the old formula is better. Maybe, for example, the sizes of the moly particles are different or more varied in one compared to the other. Maybe the new stuff is not compatible with the graphite already in the flex shafts.

The messy organic stuff has sure worked well for me. I would tend to put more weight on the real testing results of LHR over the academic opinion of the chemist. It would be interesting to hear more from the chemist about the differences.

mtylerfl

02-26-2012, 06:36 AM

Hello,

I forwarded the link to this thread to Robert at RSC Chemical Solutions. I am hoping the information contained in this discussion will help everyone concerned.

gapdev

02-26-2012, 08:19 AM

I have used the flex core just soaking and wiping off the excess lube, but had a little lube build up in the hat I had to clean out. So Soak, wipe and dry and you should have no problems

I do it a similarly. I soak overnight, let dry for a day, then wipe of excess. The stuff is so thick that I get zero dripping while it dries.

Kenny

gapdev

02-26-2012, 08:28 AM

Thank goodness I live in Texas, then. ;)

Connie, don't get me started on the insane California regulations. It's probably why the Chain Lube was changed.

I'm still getting over the fact that I cannot purchase 1 Quart or 1 Gallon sized containers of Watco Danish Oil but I can purchase the pint size containers at usually twice the price of the quart containers, and, there is nothing to stop me from buying 2 pint sized containers to get the quart that I wanted in the first place (except price). Where's the logic in all this? How do the politicians come up with this stuff?

Kenny

lynnfrwd

02-26-2012, 08:52 AM

Hello,

I forwarded the link to this thread to Robert at RSC Chemical Solutions. I am hoping the information contained in this discussion will help everyone concerned.

Chris L was trying to explain it to me the other day, but it was over my heard and I just kept saying, "uh-huh", "uh-huh"...

Maybe we should get the two of them talking!

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Smoken D

02-26-2012, 01:20 PM

I'm still getting over the fact that I cannot purchase 1 Quart or 1 Gallon sized containers of Watco Danish Oil but I can purchase the pint size containers at usually twice the price of the quart containers, and, there is nothing to stop me from buying 2 pint sized containers to get the quart that I wanted in the first place (except price). Where's the logic in all this? How do the politicians come up with this stuff?

Kenny

And the saying is, "Only in Kalifornia"! Just hope it'll stay that way:-D

mtylerfl

02-28-2012, 03:15 PM

I thought some of you might be interested in the follow-up I received today from Robert (senior chemist at RSC Chemical). Here is a copy of his email and my response I just sent to him...

BEGIN>>

"Mike,
Spoke to our supplier and he felt that it is possible that the synthetic Moly could cause the problem with the flex shaft driven equipment. I would not recommend using our new formula with that application. The product was tested by an independent testing laboratory and found to have better properties for chains and wire rope. The products were not designed for use with a high speed flexible shaft.

Regards,
RSC Chemical Solutions
Robert D. Geer
Senior Chemist

Hi Robert,
Thank you very much for that information. That seems to jive with what the CarveWright company and users of the CarveWright CNC machine have determined, as well.

Probably not too much of a "hit" in the overall scheme of the lube business, but that does cause a loss of sales at least to that particular segment of the market.

Thank you again for following up and your candor regarding the situation. It is appreciated.

Sincerely,
Michael Tyler
CarveBuddy
2008 Bayswater Road
Brunswick, GA 31525
Phone: 912-267-0586
Fax: 912-267-9512
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