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View Full Version : Why I'm Giving Up On Carvewright



Roy Harding
05-22-2011, 03:45 PM
I have two Carvewright machines, owned them for over three years. They are wonderful when they work. But I've purchased a ShopBot Desktop and eagerly await its' arrival.

Here's why:

I originally bought a Carvewright to simplify and automate the making of inlays for custom furniture - and by Gawd, it did that beautifully. I couldn't believe the ease of use and beauty of detail this machine was capable of. I was so enamored that I bought a second one - and a probe. I'm heavily invested in patterns and projects from the pattern store - and all of those purchased patterns and projects have been truly outstanding. Then the bubble burst. I became a mechanic, attempting to rectify errors - rather than a woodworker, making fantastic items.

In my opinion, this machine is wonderful for the hobbyist. The learning curve required to use it is easily manageable, and the end product is of decent quality. It is NOT, however, a production machine and my mistake was in treating it as such.

I live in Canada - and as there is no in-country supplier of Carvewright parts (the Carvewright.ca site, although still up, is not active), I am forced to buy parts from the U.S.A. - and that's OK, but shipping the machine itself back and forth is silly - so I began cannibalizing one machine to keep the other running. The shipping costs for parts are so idiotic that they pushed my planned purchase of an "industrial" type machine forward by a full year. Here's one email exchange with Carvewright regarding cut motor brushes (it's an email exchange, so it needs to be read from the bottom up (i've edited out my personal information):


Thanks again for the fast reply.

I realize the policy is not the fault of whatever individual is replying to my emails, and I appreciate that you checked for me.

That shipping charge just crazy. You folks are pushing me towards a purchase of a Shop-Bot, or a Shark.

Unfortunately - you currently have me over a barrel. I'll be in touch after attempting to locate a more reasonable supplier.

Roy Harding
EMAIL ADDRESS DELETED


On 8 Apr 11, at 0940 hrs, Carvewright Sales wrote:

I asked and there is no other alternative for shipping.

We have had a lot of issues with shipping in the past and this is the only method we will do.

CarveWright Sales

From: Roy Harding [mailto:XXXXXX]
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:11 AM
To: Carvewright Sales
Subject: Re: CarveWright: User filled in Contact Us form!

Thanks for the reply.

$45.00 for SHIPPING??? You can't just stick them in a padded envelope and mail them?

Surely there's a better way.

Roy Harding
email address deleted



On 8 Apr 11, at 0838 hrs, Carvewright Sales wrote:


George no longer sells CarveWright, parts or accessories. We cannot get them to remove the website.
The part can be ordered from Texas. The carbon brush assembly (set of 2) is only $5.00, but the shipping is $45.
The $45 doesn’t change until your order gets over 3 lbs, so if there is anything else you might need, you should probably order as much as possible. It may take a couple of weeks to get there.
CarveWright Sales

From: EMAIL ADDRESS DELETED
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 10:10 AM
To: Carvewright Sales
Subject: CarveWright: User filled in Contact Us form!

You have received this notification from CarveWright because you are a registered user or you or some other registered user requested some information for you from our store.

Customers need help!

Customer info:

First Name:

Roy
Last Name:

Harding
Address:

Address:

DELETED

City:

Terrace, BC - Canada

State:

Other

Zip/Postal code:

12345
Phone:

DELETED (rharding@citywest.ca)
E-Mail:

DELETED (rharding@citywest.ca)
Department:

Sales
Subject:

Cut Motor Brushes
Message:
I need cut motor brushes - which are not listed on your online store. Please advise either a Canadian source (NOT/NOT George Caron of Carvewright.ca - I've tried him and cannot get an answer to my emails) or cost from you.
Thank you for using our shopping system
CarveWright
Phone: 713-473-6572
Fax:
URL: www.carvewright.com (http://www.carvewright.com)

You read that right - they wanted $45.00 to ship a $5.00 item.

I've completely destroyed one machine to keep the other running.

Most errors I have had to deal with have to do with safety features (IE - board sensor, compression rollers, edge detection, etc) - and NOT with the actual carving process.

Bottom line - if you are a hobbyist, making the occasional project this machine is wonderful, it's a dream. BUT - if you are depending upon this machine to perform reliably, look elsewhere - there are simply too many sensitive "sensors" which can (and do - read these forums) shut the machine down to depend upon it. When it works, it produces a wonderful product - but it is definitely a hobbyist machine, meant for the occasional project once a month or so. If you rely upon your machines day in and day out - get a REAL industrial strength machine.

Carvewright - I'm done with you.

gregsolano
05-22-2011, 06:07 PM
I am sorry to hear about your shipping problems, I hope everything works out for you.

pkunk
05-22-2011, 06:12 PM
I presume you wanted a reply.........It is unfortunate that you have no Canada supplier but you could ask for help in finding parts in other ways. Also, the CW was never sold as a production machine but as a hobby tool so you've probably done well for yourself after 3 years of use. Those of us in the good 'ol USA can maintain our machines without a major expense.
It seems your situation is better served by a more robust machine. Best of luck to you. I hope you can work as well with the Shopbot.

Roy Harding
05-22-2011, 06:31 PM
Thanks, gregsolano. The shipping issue was merely the "straw that broke the camel's back" - my real issue is with the amount of troubleshooting to solve "errors" that is required when using this machine. These forums are testament to that fact.

My problems are mostly related to attempting to use a hobbyist machine in a production environment. All my machines work 8 to 12 hours a day, 6 to (sometimes) 7 days a week (and they ALL, including my Carvewright receive recommended preventative maintenance procedures at a greater interval than recommended by their various manufacturers).

The point of my post was to warn other production users away from this machine. It is a FINE and ADMIRABLE machine when used by a hobbyist - with hobbyist expectations regarding reliability.

liquidguitars
05-22-2011, 06:42 PM
I was under the impression that Sears shipped to you guys..

Regarding production:

I have 4 units and have spent little on replacement parts in the last years so i am like a fat cat in a pigs underware..

bergerud
05-22-2011, 06:52 PM
Sears in Canada and Sears in the States are different companies! Sears in the Stares does not ship to Canada and the Sears in Canada does not handle Compucarve.

liquidguitars
05-22-2011, 07:04 PM
That's a bummer someone dropped the ball..

I did see this:
http://www.sears.ca/usa-product/craftsman-compucarve-replacement-sandpaper-belts/US-40732925

Roy Harding
05-22-2011, 08:16 PM
You're right, pkunk - I've done well with Carvewright. My whole point is that it is a hobbyist machine and should not be relied upon in a commercial setting.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the shipping charges - I'm all for folks making a buck, but $45.00 to ship a $5.00 part which can't weigh more than a few ounces?? Come on.

unitedcases
05-22-2011, 08:27 PM
I agree with that shipping charge, here, its not so bad. I always try to order as much as I can but one can only have so many FFC cables.

gregsolano
05-22-2011, 09:19 PM
I have to agree on the shipping, I sell items across the U.S. (very little outside the country) and I do believe that LHR needs to work out a better way. Take advantage of flat rate boxes and even be willing to ship U.S.P.S. in order to help save customers money. U.S.P.S. offers tracking on all priority and even on parcel post for additional cost.

henry1
05-23-2011, 06:30 AM
I live on the border town canada and have a P.O. box or a UPS address also make it easy for me to go across and get my parts,, but have to agree shipping is a bit much USPS would be haft price //oy Harding were do you live in Canada you can send me a private messge maybe I can help you or email address or a phone #
Henry

Jeff_Birt
05-23-2011, 07:15 AM
This is a very interesting and informative thread. The OP's point is very valid that the tool must match the job it is expected to do. This is even true for commercial machines. When I used to do large industrial machines one of the worst things that could happen is to have soemone buy a machine that was not large/heavy enough to meet their needs. It would never hold up and they were never happy with it. It does not matter is the machine is $1,500 or $150,000 it has to fit the job it is expected to do.

I have mixed feeling about the shipping issue. No matter what the dollar amount of an order is it costs me a certain amount just to process the order and box it for shipment. So there has to be a minimum charge in reality. To me this is no diffrent than going to the store. When I grew up we were 20 miles from 'town' and my Dad was not about to make a special trip for one item. Even though I live in town now I do the same thing, I don't go to the lumber yard and buy one board at a time, I make a list and get several things in one trip. The minimum charge when buying things locally is the cost of gas. Another example, I buy metal from a supplier about 100 miles away and have it delivered by a regional express delivery company. It is going to cost at least $15 to have them deliver something to me but that is a whole lot less expensive than me driving there to pick it up myself.

I ship internationally all the time (have two packages going out today) and it requires a lot more effort than domestic shipping, and there are loads more regulations to deal with. There is also a lot bigger chance of something going wrong and the package disappearing. I'm also open to investigation if my international customer does something wrong with the product (like re-ship it to a country where it is restricted.)

In reality driving to pick up or mail ordering one item at a time is expensive so it is best to plan ahead if you can. Every business I deal with has different policies in this regard so I find that it helps me to understand their policy and plan accordingly. I don't like high shipping charges any more than the next guy but I understand where they are coming from.

Roy Harding
05-23-2011, 10:55 AM
I live on the border town canada and have a P.O. box or a UPS address also make it easy for me to go across and get my parts,, but have to agree shipping is a bit much USPS would be haft price //oy Harding were do you live in Canada you can send me a private messge maybe I can help you or email address or a phone #
Henry

Thanks for the offer, Henry - very generous of you. However, as I said in my original post - the shipping charges were simply the last straw - I knew I needed to upgrade to a more robust machine anyway, this just pushed my purchase forward by about 12 months.

Roy Harding
05-23-2011, 11:12 AM
You're absolutely right regarding machine expectations, Jeff. And as I stated in my original post, I was well aware that I was pushing the machine beyond its' intended limits. This situation arose slowly, as when I got the first machine I was doing a carving once in a while as a novelty to add to the custom furniture which I build. These carvings quickly became my "signature" and demand increased. As I originally said - this is a fine machine for a hobbyist, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one to an individual who is a hobbyist and will probably remain so for the foreseeable future. Your point regard machine expectations is valid - I once worked in a cabinet shop and drove a $500K CNC routing system which STILL had issues when abused or pushed beyond its' design specs. I don't have a problem with the Carvewright per se - I just wanted to ensure that others like myself don't travel the same road and become disappointed when the machine becomes a maintenance nightmare.

As far a shipping goes. I live in a fairly isolated area (Terrace, BC if you're interested) - if the mountains weren't in my way I could see Alaska from here. Just about EVERYTHING I need (aside from common lumberyard type materials - screws, sandpaper, and so on) is shipped to me. The finish I use is shipped to me, the GLUE I use is shipped to me, lumber which I can't get locally (I can get cedar, pine, and spruce locally) is either shipped to me, or I make a two day (each way) drive to a city where I can get it. I get supplies from Canada, the USA, and occasionally for a really esoteric item, the UK and other European countries. I'm used to shipping, and I don't object to reasonable shipping costs - they are a cost of doing business in the location I've chosen to live (and those costs are, of course, reflected in the prices I set). I also ship my wares around Canada, very rarely to the USA and Britain, and I KNOW what options exist.

An inflexible, outrageous shipping charge such as the one I was quoted is simply unacceptable - period, full stop. I've run into similar policies with other companies in Canada, the US and Britain - and ALL of them lost my business pretty quickly. I don't think that the loss of my business is going to hurt Carvewright in any way - but I will not pay $45.00 to ship a $5.00 item which weighs no more than a few ounces, and any company inflexible enough to insist that I do (while offering me no alternatives such as a different supplier) will lose me as a customer very rapidly - just as Carvewright has.

liquidguitars
05-23-2011, 02:37 PM
I just wanted to ensure that others like myself don't travel the same
road and become disappointed when the machine becomes a maintenance
nightmare.



From a different point of view... I do not see the machine as a maintenance issue or do i see using it as a pro consumer liability. You have options.

my first machine that has over 1000 hrs in production some are beta using the old QC that almost destroyed it and still the machine is running good.

basically your slamming the CW because you can't get parts and that's cool I be the same way but the idea that the CW is not good for small production work I think is false.

BTW I'm shipping the green violin to Athens's next week guess what? it will be $320.00 for shipping via UPS.

lynnfrwd
05-23-2011, 02:46 PM
Awesome LG! Great job!

lawrence
06-01-2011, 01:36 AM
Beautiful violin as always LG-- I'd pay $320 to ship that too--- but it's not a $5 part the size of a golf ball that can be handled roughly... most of the CW parts are (especially bits)

How are these issues not being taken care of by LHR? It does not cost that much money to put a part into a box or envelope and post it- heck the mailman comes to YOU. It also costs NOTHING to have a supply of flat rate envelopes on hand for bits, small boxes on hand for small parts, etc. If you buy the postage online it is even cheaper and includes delivery confirmation for less than a quarter. I understand there were "problems" with shipping in the past but their solution seems to be the one that's safest/easiest for them and most expensive for their customers... this sticks in my craw as a consumer. Other companies deal with the same issues and have figured it out... why not LHR?

Jeff, I understand your point about the trip to town and it is very nice and quaint story--but it just doesn't hold water with me in the modern age where I get items quicker and with less expense than we do when purchasing from LHR. Processing fees and high shipping costs (if any) are a thing of the past with consumer level products--this may not be the case with industrial products where you are expected to keep a supply of parts on hand... but as we are reminded of quite often...this is not an industrial item. I can think of no other consumer-item that I am expected to keep a running supply of spare parts on hand or I'm not doing my part... If a company doesn't keep up with modern times it will become a museum instead of a store in very short order- I don't want this to happen with the mother company of my tool.

Also, if I felt I was getting the items at close to what the standard online retail mark-up is, I could maybe understand paying a processing fee... but when I compare their prices with others that also retail similar items... I can't help but think that their markup is higher than standard...which is not so bad for me because I can often look around a buy a similar part elsewhere... but others aren't as astute-- and they get taken to the cleaners at the rate of $51.99 for a single carbide bit...

Even the perception of taking advantage of customers because they are less capable consumers or are unable to buy the item elsewhere also sticks in my craw- perhaps most of all.

So, LHR evidently makes a profit on the part and then another profit on processing shipping-- this chaps me and obviously does so to others as well. In my book, there is simply no valid excuse for outrageous shipping/processing fees from/to the continental USA for consumer parts/electronics. This issue has also been brought up several other times and gets brushed off. This is why I buy elsewhere whenever possible. If LHR was competitive in any way shape or form I would buy from them... but IMHO they are not pricing competitively...

The company is obviously working hard to repair their VERY tarnished image--and I applaud them on their efforts so far-- but there is a long way to go before their image is anything but terrible in the public view--even if we think otherwise. In my opinion, though, not addressing either the Canadian issue or the shipping issue is not helping them. Please don't get me wrong-- I'm not Carvewright bashing... I just wish LHR was run a little more like Lee Valley is. I go out of my way to buy from them whenever possible-KNOWING that I'm going to be satisfied and that if I'm not they will do whatever it takes to make me feel satisfied- which believe it or not is not actually that hard. I truly wish I felt that kind of customer relationship with LHR and hope to do so someday.

I love my Carvewright--
V/r
Lawrence

Roy Harding
06-21-2011, 05:25 PM
You wanna' know something really funny?

Since my new Shop-bot arrived, the Carvewright hasn't given me a speck of trouble. It's been golden. (Even though I have yet to replace those motor brushes that I KNOW need to be replaced.)

HOWEVER - it will remain my "second string machine" - I will NEVER depend on it to deliver without trouble.

Roy Harding
06-21-2011, 05:30 PM
I forgot to add:

I still have NEVER received word from Carvewright regarding either a cheaper shipping method - OR an alternate supplier for such simple things as cut motor brushes.

Carvewright - you lost a customer because of your silly shipping policies. And this customer remains lost - despite how well your machine has performed over the past four years.

lynnfrwd
06-21-2011, 06:08 PM
I forgot to add:

I still have NEVER received word from Carvewright regarding either a cheaper shipping method - OR an alternate supplier for such simple things as cut motor brushes.

Carvewright - you lost a customer because of your silly shipping policies. And this customer remains lost - despite how well your machine has performed over the past four years.

Roy:

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18497-New-CarveWright-Version-C-s-in-CANADA!

http://forum.carvewright.com/content.php?210-CW-is-Back-in-Canada!

Glad to hear the CW served you well!! Keep us up to date on that new Shopbot. I'm sure you will find they each have a special purpose in your shop.

cestout
06-21-2011, 06:15 PM
I think I paid $12.99 for shipping for brushes and the gear and spindle for the Y drive. I had a CompuCarve (Model A) that I that was fun, but lots of trouble. Fortunately, Sears replaced it with a B rather than repair it when it was a little over a year old. That was much more reliable. A little over a year later, Sears was going to replace that rather than do routine maintenance and calibration, but there were non available. It was the gap between the end of the B and the introduction of the C. I got a total refund, so I ordered a tricked out referb with CarveTight and rubber belts. MUCH more reliable. At just over 300 hours - a year and several months - I replaced the brushes and the barrings and shaft/gear for the Y drive. I do much more than a project every month or so. And I was running in the black until I bought the Laptop to use for StartU. But I use it as a sustainable hobby.
Clint

Roy Harding
06-21-2011, 11:56 PM
Ooops - I spoke too soon.

This thing HAS been working perfectly for a while - but within hours of my previous posting regarding how it has been performing so well - a "Z Axis Stall"

So - ONCE AGAIN, I need to diagnose the problem, fix the problem, order the parts required (which I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET WITHOUT OUTRAGEOUS SHIPPING CHARGES), and then I'll be on my way again.

"On my way again" with this machine means crossing my fingers, praying to every god that I know of, and hoping for the best.

Jesus wept - I can't wait to get fully switched over to the Shopbot, it'll be a slow and expensive process (given Carvewright's proprietary - as opposed to industry standard - software), but it will, in the end, be worth it to have a machine that I can bloody depend on.

And although I know that ya'll are just achin' to give me advice regarding the "Z Axis stall" - save your typing fingers. I've been here before (many times), and I'm confident that the answers given in these forums will get me going, once again.

In fact - there's something to think about - the MANY, MANY, MANY threads on these forums regarding machine problems, and the kind souls who have solved them (often suggesting upgrades to the manufacturer). If I'd been smart enough to realize the import of those numbers four years ago, I wouldn't be making these comments now.

Good riddance, Carvewright. I'll miss the community of well meaning, smart, and innovative users.

fwharris
06-22-2011, 12:02 AM
Hate to see you go Roy!

Jeff_Birt
06-22-2011, 06:30 AM
I have worked on CNC machines as small as a CarveWright to machines to 40' or more long with prices ranging from a few thousand to a few hundred thousand dollars. All of them need maintenance on a regular basis.

I guess you missed all the anouncments and newletter and posts about a new CW dealer in Canada?

http://forum.carvewright.com/showthr...-C-s-in-CANADA (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18497-New-CarveWright-Version-C-s-in-CANADA)!

http://forum.carvewright.com/content...Back-in-Canada (http://forum.carvewright.com/content.php?210-CW-is-Back-in-Canada)!

chebytrk
06-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Reminds me of when my boys used to whine about stuff and all I'd say was .......... you're a SissyLaLa ! ; )

CarverJerry
06-22-2011, 09:42 AM
My CNC instructor has a shopbot in his garage. We just machined a part to hold the router head out of aluminum because the design on his machine wasn't up to par and let him down many times. Now he will see if this will be more dependable him. You'll have a learning curve on the software too Roy but I'm sure you'll do ok.

CJ

Roy Harding
06-22-2011, 04:46 PM
Me, too - Jeff. And you're right about maintenance, and I do the maintenance required, as/when required.

What you're missing is why I originally started this thread - the OUTRAGEOUS shipping charges for parts.

As for the announcements - they post date my original post. Too late, Carvewright, I've already jumped ship.

Roy Harding
06-22-2011, 04:48 PM
Thanks for your intelligent, well thought out reply. It really addressed the issues being discussed - I wish I could be as erudite and pertinent as you.

Roy Harding
06-22-2011, 05:13 PM
My CNC instructor has a shopbot in his garage. We just machined a part to hold the router head out of aluminum because the design on his machine wasn't up to par and let him down many times. Now he will see if this will be more dependable him. You'll have a learning curve on the software too Roy but I'm sure you'll do ok.

CJ

Thanks, CarverJerry.

Actually, I won't have much of a learning curve to ascend - I've operated industry standard CNC machines in industrial settings in the past. In fact - the Carvewright software was more of a learning curve than I expected when I bought the first one. I LIKE the software, but the fact that it is proprietary and not industry standard is also a (minor) factor in my decision to go
elsewhere for my CNC needs.

ALL machines have maintenance issues - I'm well aware of that, but not all manufacturers have such an inflexible shipping policy as Carvewright has demonstrated it has. I'll still be using my Carvewright, but I will not ever again place myself in the position of depending upon it.

lynnfrwd
06-22-2011, 05:49 PM
The shipping issue was merely the "straw that broke the camel's back" - my real issue is with the amount of troubleshooting to solve "errors" that is required when using this machine. These forums are testament to that fact.

My problems are mostly related to attempting to use a hobbyist machine in a production environment. All my machines work 8 to 12 hours a day, 6 to (sometimes) 7 days a week (and they ALL, including my Carvewright receive recommended preventative maintenance procedures at a greater interval than recommended by their various manufacturers).

The point of my post was to warn other production users away from this machine. It is a FINE and ADMIRABLE machine when used by a hobbyist - with hobbyist expectations regarding reliability.

Roy:

You have stated on several occasions various reasons for the point of this thread. "It's the shipping cost", "it's the repairs", "it's not for the production environment".

It quite frankly appears to me that you just needed to vent and I think we have all heard you do JUST THAT. We get it, you're not happy.

Good luck to you with your ShopBot and maybe we will see you back here on the forum someday.

Connie

Roy Harding
06-22-2011, 06:12 PM
You're right. I did just need to vent - and then I stupidly let the thread take on its' own life.

Well done, Connie.

Best of luck to all of you.