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View Full Version : Clarification about copyrights and licensing



Rearden
05-15-2011, 06:34 PM
Had a couple of questions and concerns that I was hoping someone here might be better informed about. I've been told that making a copy of a logo that belongs to NASCAR, NFL, MLB, etc. was pretty much O.K. as long as it was for personal use or a gift. I'm not real confident in my source of that interpretation so I thought I'd ask. I do know that when there's a profit motive involved that it's a definite no no, and expensive to boot, 'cuz the owners of the trademarks want their money direct or they want you to pay one of their licensees. I think the fee for an MLB team was something like a $100K up front fee plus a steep royalty. NFL and NASCAR was supposedly even more. I believe even college teams were something like a $10K up front plus.

Just wanna make sure that the black helicopters don't land and impound my tools in the middle of the night. ;)

pkunk
05-15-2011, 08:33 PM
I think you've got it.

mtylerfl
05-15-2011, 08:43 PM
If you really want to know...I almost hate it when it comes up regarding copyrights! Gets way overheated at times, so I'm hoping that doesn't happen this time!

Under no circumstances is it ok to use copyrighted material without permission/authorization from the holder - ever. It does not matter if it is for personal or commercial use - a very common (erroneous) argument people make to "justify" the use of copyrighted material is to say, "well it's for personal use, so it's alright" - no it isn't.

Having said that, in the "real world" people do use copyrighted material for their personal use all the time. It doesn't make it "right" but realistically, it is seldom prosecuted. I doubt if the black helicopters are going to descend upon you, but some companies do monitor the web for photos people post of their protected items (logos, trademarks, etc.). Usually a "cease and desist" letter comes before a lawsuit, though. If you do "cease" then that's typically the end of it.

Couple quick examples...Sears wanted to sue me and sent me a "cease and desist" letter for using their trademark name of CompuCarve on the CarveBuddy website. After talking with their legal department, the Sears Buyer of the CompuCarves, and receiving the helpful advice of an attorney, the issue was resolved without incident due to their "snaffu" in judgment. From a legal standpoint, I had every right to advertise and state that my patterns were compatible with their machine. In that instance, the use of the CompuCarve name was considered "Fair Use" (that is the actual legal term) and not a violation of trademark or copyright.

A pattern maker received a "cease and desist" letter from the US Air Force for creating Air Force patterns without authorization and written permission to do so. He ceased, and they dropped any further action (to this day, as far as I know, the fellow is still "blackballed" from receiving permission because of the initial violation). My understanding is that every branch of the Service requires permission to replicate/use their logos and symbols so they can verify and assure respectful use of the same.

Disney is a company to fear...they are extremely aggressive about protecting their material.

Even service clubs and Boy Scouts of America can be sticklers. Certainly, you'll want to get permission before selling a product with a Boy Scout logo. I think they will ask for a royalty payment, is my understanding.

One fellow told me he carved a Rotary logo for his club. They had a guest speaker who asked about the nice Rotary Club carved logo on the wall - seemed innocent enough. Next thing you know, the club received a letter informing them they had to pay a fine of $500 because they failed to get permission to produce the plaque. I admit, that is hearsay - I have no personal first-hand involvement with the incident - was told to me, but have no particular reason to doubt the story, considering the source at the time.

eelamb
05-15-2011, 10:02 PM
I will add one thing to MT's post. If the owner of the material has a federal copyright, a "cease and desist" is not necessary. With a federal copyright, the owner can invoice you any amount they wish and get it. One of my customers has just went through this because a marketing company marketed copyright material in the customers add.

Rearden
05-16-2011, 10:38 AM
Having been ripped off myself by customers that have previously taken drawings or plans to "cheaper" contractors, I'm empathetic to the issue of rendering unto Caesar. That said, I'm immediately put off by the idea that I should have to get anybody's permission to use the friggin' Air Force logo. Firstly, 'cuz that's where I served, and secondly 'cuz we are they and they are we...supposedly. We already own it in my mind (no I'm not trying to initiate a discussion about my relative mental health). I guess it triggers my "who the hell do they think they are?" reflex (even the military couldn't rid me of my authority issues). Aside from that, what could I possibly do to tarnish the image of a group that kills and maims by the tens of thousands? That makes as much sense to me as if I were to find out that the State Seal had been trade marked.

M.T. your point about Disney is well taken. Even I had heard of their legendary ferocity in tracking down yard gnome casters 'cuz the image looked too much like Eisner (or was that Grumpy?). I'd never heard about the Federal registry penalty issue though. Very good to know.

The story about the Rotarians is a little creepy as well. Where do ya think that puts images such as the Firemen's cross, etc. Any ideas about how to make sure that what you're dealing with is actually considered public domain? I get paranoid pretty easily. Most recently I had made a couple of "Magic Wands" for a neighbor's kids and somebody mentioned that I might get a visit from the Harry Potter police. I realize they can't trademark something that ubiquitous, but that doesn't mean that some underemployed shyster wouldn't try to file a suit on it. I wonder just how far this goes? Any body get a trademark on Jesus yet? How 'bout that conehead thing the Pope's sportin'? Can I get sued for carving a Menorah or Mitzvah scroll?

More seriously, I had dissolved a partnership over what I believed was true, and according to Mr. Lamb it was. My partner had decided that he was going to impress me with a new product idea one day so he made up a couple of light boxes that featured NFL logo's...and then sold them to one of our customers without telling me! His reply to my meltdown; "it was only six". Let's see...six times whateverthehell they want equals...a crap load more than he'd ever see, but he just didn't get it - so I figured he was just a little too stupid to be in biz with...even for me. I also know two guys locally that pissed away a relative fortune in a trademark infringement suit / counter-suit over who was going to be listed first in the freakin' Yellow Pages. One was "A-1" and the other was "AAA". Problem was there were two different companies makin' Yellow Pages then and one used an alpha numeric preference and the other the reverse...so in the end it didn't really matter who claimed what name. Meanwhile their lawyers got new condos in Boca.

Bottom line, the only thing I'm more allergic to than authority figures is lawyers, so the less I ever have to do with them the better my quality of life.

In terms of permissions, license and releases anybody got any suggestions on how to best immunize themselves from the rabid vampires, or does due diligence now require a trip to the patent office and a tithe to a mouth piece?

I'm not tryin' to open a can of worms here, but I also don't want any lawyers in my life (did I mention how much I prefer eating shards of glass to that alternative)? How about car company logo's. I see Ford and Chevy on more T-shirts than I could count? And just to add gas to the fire, what about images of someone's identifiable product? Many cars, guns and planes for example are pretty gosh darn identifiable even without a logo (think Mustangs and M-16's).

Man I'm gettin' a headache. Why can't we just kill all of the lawyers? :(;)

pkunk
05-16-2011, 11:31 AM
I believe this has gone rar enough-I'm closing this thread and let's not go there anymore. There are older threads on this subject in the archives if you'd like to read them.