Dust Collection Prototype

[bergerud]

Check out the first testing of my new dust collector. I have a $20 (that's new) mini shop vac sucking trough 6 feet of 1/2 inch hose (I have not cut it yet) and I was getting 99.9% of the dust. I saw the odd feather fly out. Mind you, this is only the first test.
There are problems yet to solve, but, I have to say, I think this it the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccZbJjG2gkc

[gregsolano]

That is very interesting and different. I am very intrigued! Would like to see more pics of where the hose goes through the machine and wondering about the additional pressure on the truck causing errors as it works its way back and forth.

[bergerud]

I have not decided where the hose should go. There are a few choices. It puts very little force on the carriage. The problem is that damn bit plate. The aluminum bracket slides under the bit plate but the Plexiglas must be removed during bit measurement.

[lawrence]

VERY cool idea-- talk about collecting the dust at the source

Lawrence

[quarrydesigns]

Wonder if the hose could come out the top with the flex shaft?
What is the plastic piece you are using?
I've seen similar looking pieces on some medical equipment..

Bit plate... good question..

Daniel
www.quarrydesignswoodworking.com

[unitedcases]

I am borderline idiot when it comes to dust collecting with this thing. I will definitely one day just pay someone to do it for me, but......... what about having the hose come out the front, maybe even a slight upward angle? Just saying.......

[Smoken D]

How would that small of a vac do with a 8-15 hour carve? Would it hold up for that continous usage? Other than that looks great!

[bergerud]

My small $20 vac has run for hundreds of hours already. I would just leave the nozzle under the roller near where the chips fly while carving . I figured I would just buy another one when it died.
I made the plastic piece (dust cap) of Plexiglas.
The hose can come out the front but it needs half a loop first to give the carriage freedom to move. I cannot see going out with the flex shaft unless it can be permanently installed. Because of the bit plate problem, the dust cap and hose must be taken in and out of play.

[Dan-Woodman]

That looks great. As far as the Shop vac, I don't see a shop vac holding up to 8-15 hr. carvings.
later Daniel

[bergerud]

I do not know why you guys think a little vac cannot be left on for hours. Mine has run for hundreds of hours. I have run it with every carve for years! This is a minor detail anyway. The carvewright motor itself could be used to power the dust cap. Check out the youtude video. See any dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccZbJjG2gkc

[Digitalwoodshop]

This is a really Great Idea.... It always comes down to the bit plate.... TOOOOOO Bad there is not some way to replace the bit plate with a AIR Operated small Cylinder or CAM that raises a POST from the bottom rather than swing out the Bit Plate.... Like a 1/2 inch BOLT cut flush as a place for the bit to touch that retracts as the head departs the bit check area.... SO the action of the bit plate is turned from a flipper to a post that extends from the bottom.... Calling RON..... Paging RON.....

OR..... This is a BIGGI.... Have LHR change the program so the bit plate check is converted to using the Right Side Guide.... And make it a selectable feature.... So if you have a Supper Wide Board where the Right Side Guide is too far off to the side.... You switch back to bit plate....

OR..... Have LHR change the program so the bit plate check is the LEFT SIDE GUIDE..... The Surface....of the left side guide.... You are just trying to establish the tip of the bit... and the bit is already doing the BOB over at the left side... DO AWAY with the Bit Plate......

OK.... Now who is dreaming of an industrial machine..... LOL..... Imagine how much simpler Dust Collection like this would be if the bit plate check was just touching the top of the LEFT RAIL GUIDE..... I will send a email to LHR next.... From "AL Who"....

This is a HOT IDEA...

AL

[Pratyeka]

Very nice! what is the capacity of your shop vac? Have you tried it with different bits? Could it be used with a sled whose side are higher than the top of the wood to be carved?
Where is the support bracket fastened to?

[Digitalwoodshop]

Most likely used the 2 screws holding the Board Sensor in placed.....

AL

[lawrence]

I do not know why you guys think a little vac cannot be left on for hours. Mine has run for hundreds of hours. I have run it with every carve for years! This is a minor detail anyway. The carvewright motor itself could be used to power the dust cap. Check out the youtude video. See any dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccZbJjG2gkc



most don't have continuous motors-- I burned out 2 shop vacs over the years before I bought my Festool vac and 1.5 hp jet dust collector. They both have motors that won't burn out from continuous use. My guess is that you have gotten VERY lucky with the motor on yours. At $20 you could afford to though, so good on ya and it just goes to show that you don't always need the most expensive tool to do the job (though boy is the festool vac nice- and zero static from the hose)

Lawrence

[bergerud]

Yes, it is connected to the two screws which hold the board sensor. I might tap these screws larger or add screws elsewhere. (first try prototype!) The bottom of the dust cap is just above the bottom of the compressed rollers. Deep wide carves or carves down in a sled might need more vacuum. But, hey, I was using a really small (2gal.) piece of junk vacuum on the end of 6 feet of 1/2 inch hose. I was shocked at how well it worked.

Maybe the vacuum does not burn out because it is no power!

Something you guys have missed here is that there may not be any room for this with the CT. I know the QT is too big unless you remove the plastic cover. Will the CT fit in a 1 1/2 inch hole? I'll bet that allen bolt is trouble. (Note how small the ER11 is.)

[James RS]

I like the idea but I wouldn't use a shop vac especially if it's the single motor non - industrial. They're use is 15 - 30 minutes then let cool.
There are adapters for the shop vac to down size to smaller hose attachments, that might be the ticket to tie this into a dust collection system

[bergerud]

Enough about the vacuum! This vacuum has run many a 6 hour carve. Sometimes I would forget it and it would run for 10. When it goes on sale for $20, I'll buy another one.

[James RS]

Hey the only reason I mentioned it The company I work for, does work for Shop Vac! and they told us that! so take it as you will doesn't matter to me

[bergerud]

It is just funny, that's all. Everyone has a burnt out shop vac story.

[unitedcases]

I use a shop vac as well. Just saying.......

[glassocean]

bergerud,
This is a very cool idea! My only concern would be the amount of air that can move thru the small hose and where to mount the hose, as others have said. I still love the design regardless. I'm still using my acrylic unit that I designed a while back, before the other similar designs came out, and are now being sold.
44550

[ktjwilliams]

Dan,,, U done it again !! The ER11, now this... And I won't mention the vac.... My shop vac is 25 yrs old and i've run it for hrs on end,, it keeps goin and goin and goin !! guess I fibbed bout not mentioning the vac... And I didn't see any dust in the video... Keep us posted ...

[bergerud]

Al, Thanks for the positive response to my dust cap prototype. Now I need your opinion. I have observed (from an old photo of yours) that the cut motor has two separate fans in the housing. Holy shit! The back one cools the motor and the front one does nothing except suck air from a square input hole behind the back roller. I can use the front fan to power the dust cap! I would have to plug (or reduce) the square input hole and make a new hole in the top of the housing to connect the dust cap hose. Then, take off the muffler and connect the out put (of both fans) to a filter can. The Carvewright can keep itself clean!

I could not sleep last night, what do you think?

(Of course there is still the problem of the bit plate. In order to implement this idea, it is essential to solve the bit plate problem.)

[Digitalwoodshop]

I do believe you are on to something..... The Suction I believe is designed to keep the Electronics cool..... I DO believe that it would work GREAT.... Due to the nature of the pitch in the wood..... Like my Dust Collector.... A cleaning of the fan would need to be scheduled....

YES.... GREAT IDEA..... The Exhaust could be blown into a collection bag with a Auto Air Filter to let the air out... bet it would be quiter...

Good Job....

AL

[dougmsbbs]

I love this idea. Can't wait to see if it works!

If you need parts cut (acrylic?) I can do them on the laser for you, up to 1/4" thick. You design it, I'll cut them for you. I'm gonna go stare at my machine and see what pops into my head about the bit plate problem....

[bergerud]

I had not thought about the need for periodic cleaning, good point. We will have to see how that goes. I am going to focus on the bit plate problem. The dust cap, the hose, and the bit plate all want to be in the same place at the same time. After I get the hose out of the way, I only see two choices: either the cap has to move for the plate or the plate has to be redesigned to fit into the cap. This is in a sense, an artificial problem, (as Al points out) caused by software. An elegant solution, therefore, is not really required. That could come later if the idea works and LHR gets on board.

I do not think LHR is going to come on board if the cap does not work for the CT. I am worried that there is very little clearance between the CT and the truck. How close does that allen head come to the truck? Could the allen head be countersunk more? My cap has an OD of 1 3/4 and an ID of 1 1/2. How thin would the cap have to be to fit between the truck and the CT? Also, how far below the bottom bearing does the CT go? I would appreciate if someone could measure these things and report. I want to find a solution which works for the CT. (Sorry but the QC is out unless you can live without the Chuck Release Flange.)

[Pratyeka]

Just install a tiny mini-cyclone separator between the dust collector and the fan and it should prevent the dust going into the fan... :-)

[quarrydesigns]

CT measurements

Chuck is 1.18" dia X .65" thick

Max swing dia including set screw is just over 1.3"

Top of chuck is .40" below bottom of z truck housing

Daniel

[bergerud]

That is great. The CT is not too big. Thanks.

Where would the dust go with a cyclone separator? Would you need another vacuum?

[Pratyeka]

Where would the dust go with a cyclone separator? Would you need another vacuum?

The dust falls down the bottom of the cyclone into a can. The cyclone would be next to the machine, with the vacuum hose going to and from the cyclone. 44559

[DickB]

What would happen if you simply cut a slot in the dust cap for the bit plate? With sufficient CFM driving this, I'm guessing it would be OK to waste some through a slot and still collect most of the stuff.

[bergerud]

As it is, the bit plate would swipe 3/4 of the way through the dust cap. What you say would be possible if the bit plate was chopped down to a minimum. I worry that the slot in the cap would be exactly where the bit (and the vortex) throws the chips.

For a test, I have simply removed the bit plate and replaced it with a pin and stop. I am working on how to get the hose to the cut motor. If I can get that to work, I will come back to the bit plate problem. I may very well try your suggestion.

[DickB]

A spring-loaded door is my other idea, but that would be more complicated.

I think this is a great approach if it can be made to work. Got me thinking too.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Your way ahead of me with the pin idea.... Can a pin replace the bit flag and still be moved into place with the truck? A Low Profile Bit Plate...

AL

[bergerud]

The pin is not for the bit but for the truck. When the carriage goes to the right, the z truck is at the top. When it comes down to touch the bit plate, a pin sticking out of the z truck will hit a stop on the side of the machine. The bit will not actually be measured. I will place the stop so that the truck stops where it would if the bit did hit the bit plate. I am really postponing the bit plate problem. If I can connect the dust cap to the cut motor in a way that works, then, I will come back to the bit plate problem. (It is a shame that the hose cannot be connected to that square intake above the back roller. It is so close, but, I just cannot see enough room for a hose. I think the hose has to go up and over.)

[ktjwilliams]

I was thinkin that maybe some soft plastic strips ( like they have on walk in freezer boxes )... It could be made of a lighter gauge of course... I will have to study this further... I will sit and stare at the machine and think about a hose hookup and the cap and bit flag ... Things that make U go Hmmmm !!

[bergerud]

I was so excited because I thought I could use the front fan in the cut motor to power the dust cap. It turns out that the front fan is a low pressure fan. Using it to power the dust cap would require modifying it to increase the pressure. Not hard to do I think, but, along with all of the other problems, (how to get the hose to the motor, the bit plate, and so on) I decided to finish the simple modification I started. I will post the results in the dust collection sub-forum. The more elaborate dust cap system will have to wait.