Rock Chuck vs. Carve tight? in the need of an upgrade

[Sallen1215]

Im in the need of upgrading a machine im buying that has the QC on it. The machine would come with several QC bits and i know that the CT you have to abandon the old bits for the new press fit bushings, but it looks as though the RC i can just use the old bits in the new chuck. im new at this so if anyone can help a young carver out i would appreciate it.


Stephen

[Kenm810]

I'm very happy with the Rock Chucks and their Sleeves for now, they fit every Bit I've been using,
including the few Bits I have with pressed on sleeves

[AskBud]

Im in the need of upgrading a machine im buying that has the QC on it. The machine would come with several QC bits and i know that the CT you have to abandon the old bits for the new press fit bushings, but it looks as though the RC i can just use the old bits in the new chuck. im new at this so if anyone can help a young carver out i would appreciate it.
Stephen
Stephen,
Most of the bits have steel shanks and may be used in the new CT Assembly (chuck).

The current LHR exception(s) are the 1/16" & 3/16" Carving Bits, as well as the 1/8" Cutting Bit, which have a Carbide shank. Their findings are that the carbide will not allow for enough compression to firmly hold the bit in place. Therefore, LHR has placed a pressed on sleeve on these bits.
AskBud

[DocWheeler]

Stephen,

Like KenM810, I have one of Ron's chucks (a fellow Buckeye) and like it.

There are a few things to consider. As Bud said, the CW chuck does not hold carbide shanks (CW says that no chuck does). The CW chuck requires sleeves on some bits that are not re-usable I believe (extra expense). The CW chuck is lighter (a little less wear?) The CW chuck requires two wrenches I think.

The Rock is heaver and longer (the length can cause problems if you chuck a long bit in wrong). The Rock tightens to all shanks (I've never had a problem). The Rock uses one hex wrench. If the bit has a flat spot machined into it and you position that flat spot incorrectly you might create a burr on the innards of the chuck that you would need to file off.

I hope that this helps.

[AskBud]

Stephen,

Like KenM810, I have one of Ron's chucks (a fellow Buckeye) and like it.

There are a few things to consider. As Bud said, the CW chuck does not hold carbide shanks (CW says that no chuck does). The CW chuck requires sleeves on some bits that are not re-usable I believe (extra expense). The CW chuck is lighter (a little less wear?) The CW chuck requires two wrenches I think.

The Rock is heaver and longer (the length can cause problems if you chuck a long bit in wrong). The Rock tightens to all shanks (I've never had a problem). The Rock uses one hex wrench. If the bit has a flat spot machined into it and you position that flat spot incorrectly you might create a burr on the innards of the chuck that you would need to file off.

I hope that this helps.
The CarveTight Assembly "CT" (chuck) has a 1/2" opening to accept the 1/2" shank bits, and accepts a Split Collet for the 1/4" shank bits The split collet has a 1/4" inside and a 1/2" outside. One or two split collets are all you really need, as you may change them to each bit or the probe as necessary.

The replacement assembly needs, and includes, only one wrench to do the every day operation. This is a 4mm "T" handle allen wrench.
There is , also, a flat wrench to adjust the movable roller bearings which will get little usage under normal conditions.
AskBud

[lawrence]

I have a Rock chuck and LOVE IT. I bought it before the Carvetight came out so I didn't have a choice when I made my decision. If I were buying again today I'm not 100% sure which I would buy. One part of me wants to support LHR to keep the lights on etc etc while another part of me gets ticked off anytime I feel like a company is pushing me into buying proprietary parts just because they want to make another buck off of me.

The thing regarding the slippage of carbide in collets made my machinist friend laugh so hard that he almost fell over-- he's been working with high speed collets and carbide for many many years and he says "anyone that thinks that this is a real and true concern should give him a call because he's got some bridges to sell them" According to him there is always SOME slippage over many many many revolutions but that this is such a remote occurance in most industrial situations that it is not even a consideration and that this is for industrial machines that run all day... only stopping to change out worn bits.

All this being said... the carvetight appears to be a significant improvement over the old QC and the carvewright C version appears to have some other improvements over the B version--even with a rock chuck. If you think there is a chance you will have to send the machine in for service in the future (and who doesn't) I can't help but think that the "C" version will future proof your purchase somewhat... who knows how much longer parts/etc will be available for the old versions (though Sears usually has a pretty good record for keeping parts available for quite some time after a product is discontinued, it is evidently up to the manufacturer to decide how long they will provide parts)

I also don't think that Ron makes his living from selling Rock Chuck items-- I could be wrong about this but can't help but think that he makes a few bucks but probably mostly created the Rock chuck to provide us with a better alternative to the QC and because he saw an opening in a very small market. On the other hand I get the inkling that LHR may be holding on by the skin of their teeth sometimes-though I mostly blame their past business model on their peril--their product is a good one. LHR has also been MUCH better about reacting quickly to many customer concerns (free software upgrades, free demos of pay upgrades, EXCELLENT telephone service etc) They have a large mountain of past bumfuzzledness to overcome though, and I hope it isn't too late. Things like the Carvewright conference etc will only continue to make the customer base stronger and better informed and this does give me some hope.

I love my Rock-- if I were doing it again though-out of fear of lack of support for B version parts in the future, I'd probably buy a carvetight upgrade- but I am looking into having my friend press out/in new bits so that I can buy and reuse the carvetight sleeves.

You'll be able to sell the old bits here on the forum without any problem (as long as you don't charge $12 to ship a single bit)

Lawrence

[henry1]

I'm very happy with the Rock Chucks and their Sleeves for now, they fit every Bit I've been using,
including the few Bits I have with pressed on sleeves
I also love my Rock Chuck and never had a problem I just ordered some bits from him they work great and he only charge 6.00 to ship go figure

[bergerud]

Has anyone compared the run out on these chucks? The Rock threads onto the QC spindle. Is Carve Tight one part with the spindle or does it also thread onto the same old spindle? Which one is heavier? I would be interested in knowing these things if I was going to buy one or the other.

[lynnfrwd]

The CarveTight is one solid piece from where the flexshaft inserts to where the bit inserts.

I don't know about the Rock Chuck.

[AskBud]

Has anyone compared the run out on these chucks? The Rock threads onto the QC spindle. Is Carve Tight one part with the spindle or does it also thread onto the same old spindle? Which one is heavier? I would be interested in knowing these things if I was going to buy one or the other.
To use the Rock Chuck, you unscrew the QuickChange (QC) chuck and thread on the Rock.
You will remove any run-out inherent in your QC. However, if you also have an imbalance of bad bearings on your QC spindle, that will still exist.

The CarveTight (CT) Assembly is a new housing, new bearings, and a combined spindle and chuck assembly.

In my opinion, if you have had lots of QC related problems your problems may well require more than just a new chuck (Rock or QC) to assure full repair. I've replaced both of the QC, on my units, with the CT Assembly and have had no further major problems due to run-out or vibration.
AskBud

[mtylerfl]

...The thing regarding the slippage of carbide in collets made my machinist friend laugh so hard that he almost fell over-- he's been working with high speed collets and carbide for many many years and he says "anyone that thinks that this is a real and true concern should give him a call because he's got some bridges to sell them" According to him there is always SOME slippage over many many many revolutions but that this is such a remote occurance in most industrial situations that it is not even a consideration and that this is for industrial machines that run all day... only stopping to change out worn bits...Lawrence

Hi Lawrence,

Your machinist doesn't have the full story on the chuck used by the CarveTight and Rock Chuck. They use a "paw" to grab the bit shank. He's probably familiar with the commercial "ER"-type chuck collets (which are patented). They are waay different than a "paw-style" chuck collet, and there is really no valid comparison between the two. I use the ER chuck collets on the ShopBot and there is no slippage on any bit as long as it is tightened properly and not worn out. BTW, ER collets are a little pricey - I spend between $45 and $65 on each.

[lawrence]

Hi Lawrence,

Your machinist doesn't have the full story on the chuck used by the CarveTight and Rock Chuck. They use a "paw" to grab the bit shank. He's probably familiar with the commercial "ER"-type chuck collets (which are patented). They are waay different than a "paw-style" chuck collet, and there is really no valid comparison between the two. I use the ER chuck collets on the ShopBot and there is no slippage on any bit as long as it is tightened properly and not worn out. BTW, ER collets are a little pricey - I spend between $45 and $65 on each.

That's a very fair point-- he didn't look at things too closely other than to say that he could see why I would rather use the rock over the QC after looking at them for about 20 seconds.

Lawrence

[jaroot]

I put the Carvetight on our machine mostly because we had other issues with the z truck. I have to say that it was without a doubt the best money that we've spent on the machine.

[bergerud]

There may be a new option soon. I am currently talking with an American company who manufactures high quality ER spindles and is interested in offering a line which fits the Carvewright. (Next step is sending the him exact dimensions.) Pull out the old spindle with whatever is on it and replace it with a industry standard collet chuck. Price and time line yet unknown. (A set of seven ER11 collets, however, {1/32,1/16,3/32,1/8,3/16,7/32,1/4} is $58 at www.Shars.com.) If you cannot make your own ER spindle, you may be able to buy one soon.

[rjustice]

As a side note, I created ER style bit adapters but never put them on the market because after testing them, i found that they were a pain in the neck to change out using 2 wrenches in the machine. Being a machine user, it was obvious that i wouldnt be happy with this style of chuck. In terms of clamping pressure using the Rock Chuck, the amount of pressure it takes to slip the bit far exceeds the potential of the machine spindle.

Hope this helps,

Ron

[bergerud]

It is true, the two wrenches are a drag, especially if you are into mult-bit projects. I, on the other hand, use my router for those other jobs. It is most important to me that I can hold any size bit and hold it accurately. I use 3/32 shank diamond burrs, many 1/8 shank square and ball end mills, and now 3/16 shank ball and square end mills as well as the 1/4 shanks. I have no use for 1/2 shank bits and I cannot understand why anyone would.

The time I wait for the machine to go through its checks and questions slows me down more than two wrenches does. But still, I am going to put a locking push button on my truck (there is a spot just made for it) so that I 'll be back to one wrench.

I also like these ER spindles because their run out can be made almost unmeasurable, and this is important for a few good reasons. They are small and light and that is exactly what I think should be on the end of a flex shaft. Actually, is not the reason for a flex shaft in the first place to have a light, low inertia truck?

You are right, two wrenches are a pain, but I think a small price to pay considering all of the other advantages. You know, the whole "quick change" concept has been the cause of all the problems from the start.

I am not trying to make any money on this. I am only interested in the best solution. I commend your efforts to help the Carvewright users, to me, you are a hero. To your credit, I think LHR copied your solution. For many users, your Rock (and now also the CT) are what is needed. I think, however, that there is a small subset of "advanced" users who want more freedom to experiment with the huge selection of (non proprietary and cheap) carbide bits on the market.

I was actually hoping the either yourself or Jeff might want to take over the business of providing these ER spindles. Some people can make them for themselves, but this is yet, I fear, a very small subset.

[rjustice]

I can offer up some solutions if interested. The Rock sleeves are available in 1/8, 1/4, and 3/8 ID... I will be releasing the 3/16 very soon, and could look at 3/32 if there is an interest. The runout on the Rock Chuck is extremely tight based on the interfacing method, generally less than .0005 TIR. I checked runout in the 4 QC's that i had and they were .012-.015. Obviously this is the root of vibration no matter how well the chuck was balanced.

If there is interest, I can supply the Rock or ER style nose on an integral spindle, and yes, make it lighter. I can also supply the ER style bit adapter, that would allow users that have the Rock chuck to simply unscrew thier Rock bit adapter, and screw in the ER bit adapter.

Feel free to click on my email link in my signature below if you are interested.

Thanks,

Ron

[Sallen1215]

Ron

I have a used machine shipping to me, it has the QC on it and comes with a bunch of bits set up for the QC, if i get the rock chuck kit can i use all of the bits with your system? i know with the carve tight i have to get their bits with the pressed on bearings for the 1/16 and the 1/8 stock bit. I think i read one of your posts that the pressed fittings were overkill and the chuck can tighten down on the bits with no problem.





Thanks for the help
Stephen

[rjustice]

Hi Stephen,

Yes the Rock Chuck system gives you complete flexability to use any bits you wish to use. I already have 1/8, 1/4 and 3/8 sleeves, and will soon have the 3/16 offered on the website. The Rock Chuck will not slip using the sleeves that I produce as long as the sleeves are oriented, and tightened properly. There are a few rules of thumb if you are going to try aftermarket cutting bits...

1) Be sure they are center cutting (flutes are sharpenend to the center on the tip of the bit)
2) Use carbide
3) Choose a bit size in the library that is of similar size so that the feeds and speeds are approx. correct.
4) Make sure there is enough flute length to cut the entire depth that you are going to carve. If you hit the shank of the tool, it will create excessive force, heat, and potentially start a fire, and/or damage the machine... (NOT GOOD!)

Hope this helps..

Ron

[Sallen1215]

Thanks Ron i don't plan on buying aftermarket bits unless they come from you, however all the bits coming with the machine will be QC style and i will just remove the QC collar and use your system as long as it works that way. And believe me i hope it does cause i cant afford a whole new set of bits, that would suck so bad ha ha

[Digitalwoodshop]

To remove the bit holders get a little Torch and heat the bit holder to loosen the locktite on the 2 screws and use a wrench or pliers to remove them. I set the bit inside 3/8 square end of a Deep Socket. I then heat the bit holder and using a center punch carefully tap it out. Slow as to not damage the tip of the bit. Clean the Locktite from the bit and add a locking collar and your all set.

Remember... LOTS of heat on the QC.... OR you will snap the square bit.... I like the soldering Iron idea... Sticking it up inside the QC.... No Flame...

AL

Bit Stop Collars http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v198-8043/maint_-_bearings_and_rub_collars

[AskBud]

Here is some hints on removing bits from the QC bit adapters.
The following is for the 1/4 inch shank bits:
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?15586-Compucarve-Bits-Question&p=132898#post132898

THE 1/2 INCH SHAFT BITS NEED NO HEAT. They have a nut (collet) at the end of the adapter that you will turn with a wrench, so you just need a pair of pliers or vice to hold the adapter while you turn the nut/collet.
AskBud

[Sallen1215]

Bud you are the man, i think the oven idea is a far easier option. Also Al you are a wealth of knowledge for us the less experienced. Now i just need to figure out the best way to remove the QC when it arrives. I'm thinking removal of the truck will be best. Also i upgraded my buddy's system to the CT system, and noticed there is a circuit board on the old truck that is not there on the new truck, is this necessary for operation? what does it actually do? sorry if i appear ignorant ha ha ha

[jaroot]

After you get to using the machine for awhile you'll probably find that you will only use a few of the bits in the "set". We have the complete set and only use the carving bit, cutting bit, 60 & 90 vees, 3/8 straight and the 1/4 round nose. Most of the rest of the bits are for edge treatments, ie. roman ogee etc. and I find it much faster to profile the edges with a my router table and/or hand router. It also saves a lot of wear and tear on the CW.


Thanks Ron i don't plan on buying aftermarket bits unless they come from you, however all the bits coming with the machine will be QC style and i will just remove the QC collar and use your system as long as it works that way. And believe me i hope it does cause i cant afford a whole new set of bits, that would suck so bad ha ha

[eelamb]

sallen1215, to remove the QC, I took a .5" rod about 3" in length, ground a little on the diameter on the first 1". Then heated the rod, while holding it with vice grips, once hot I then inserted the hot rod into the qc as far as it would go, and held it there for 30 sec to 1 minute. The qc came off without any problems. This worked great for me.

I had a bucket of water close to drop the rod and grips into when I removed the rod from the qc.

[Sallen1215]

I'm probably going to use either a mapp gas torch or a butane plumbing torch, they reach around 2000 degrees which is more effective than propane and less torch time to achieve heat. That is unless this is a bad idea and in that case i was totally kidding ha ha

[TerryT]

sallen1215, to remove the QC, I took a .5" rod about 3" in length, ground a little on the diameter on the first 1". Then heated the rod, while holding it with vice grips, once hot I then inserted the hot rod into the qc as far as it would go, and held it there for 30 sec to 1 minute. The qc came off without any problems. This worked great for me.

I had a bucket of water close to drop the rod and grips into when I removed the rod from the qc.

Yep, thats what I did when I had to change one two or three years ago. I think it's pretty much a standard procedure now.

[TerryT]

I'm probably going to use either a mapp gas torch or a butane plumbing torch, they reach around 2000 degrees which is more effective than propane and less torch time to achieve heat. That is unless this is a bad idea and in that case i was totally kidding ha ha

If you are talking about removing the adaptors from the bit, you don't need that much heat. I just used my propane torch and heated the set screws, they came right out. There was only one adapter that I had to do additional heating on to get it off. Just about 5 seconds was all it took.

[Sallen1215]

Im talking about removing the QC from the spindle, looks like the best way is to slide a piece of .5 rod into a spare QC adapter and stick about 1/2 inch of it above the adapter, heat it up to a good glow then insert it n the QC for roughly 30 seconds and then use the wrenches to break the QC loose from the spindle.

[TerryT]

Yep, thats what I did when I had to change one two or three years ago. I think it's pretty much a standard procedure now.

Yeah, as I said I think that is pretty much standard practice. That way you don't burn up belts or other stuff. I did try the high wattage soldering iron once, pushed up into the chuck but it just didn't get hot enough.