Interesting encounter with WoodCraft

[Rearden]

I'm a Festool addict...I admit it, and I should probably be in therapy or under a doctor's care for it but so far I've been able to avoid the 12 step program. WoodCraft happens to be my only local dealer, and I was needin' a particular accessory to finish a job (I'm just trying to rationalize my addiction here) so I darted in. As it happens I had recently decided to purchase a new CW and figured that I would buy it from them since it was their catalog that first made me aware of the product. When I mentioned this to the WoodCraft guy he was none too supportive of my decision.

First he suggested that I look at General's new CNC carver, that they appear to have scaled down from their larger format machines specifically to compete with the CW. His stated preference was for the General model. When I explained that I wasn't in the habit of spending that kind of dough without being able to kick the tires he informed me that they'd be more than willing to bring the General in for a test drive, but not the CW. He went into some rather vague diatribe about people preferring the General's software and more friendly attitude to foreign file formats (which may in fact all be true) but it was really the software that first attracted me to it so I was left a bit dismayed.

While they aren't ever going to compete with Sears or Lowes volume, they do have the perfect setting to demonstrate and do a more hands on, in your face presentment than the other retailers. A few days before I had been in for a fix (O.K. so I don't really think that I have a problem) and they had a guy turning a baseball bat on an older model digital lathe that they wanted to move. Low and behold...someone bought it the next day. Did I mention the guy was turning a baseball bat? Not exactly enthralling to watch...but that's all that was necessary to grab someone's attention and sell the machine. A rather singular purpose and over priced piece at that, IMNSHO. (I would gladly trade my lathe for a CNC anytime).

The reason that the CW wasn't going to be brought in was that they require a minimum order of three units, and the store didn't feel that there was enough interest from there stores to warrant the inventory investment. Anyway, they don't seem to grasp the concept of pile it high and watch it fly, not that I suppose I could blame them in this current race to the bottom "Recovery", but I really think that they're missing a great opportunity.

I'm kind of curious now about the General, even though I'm totally comfortable with my decision to go with the CW (didn't notice a General Tools of Canada forum...besides those darn Canadians are just like the ChiComs aren't they ...with all of that socialized medicine stuff)? ;);) I'm also not concerned about the file formatting issues 'cuz my son is fluent in all sorts of different computer languages and graphics programs, so I'm sure he'll be able to walk me through. Would be interesting to see a comparison. The Shop Bot thing was really kind of apples to snow shovels for me. As for the WoodCraft store's guidance, I'm less inclined to follow their advise mainly 'cuz I just accept that they point ya where they can make the best money for the least amount of effort. Besides, they're probably already convinced that I'm off my noodle 'cuz of my Festool... ahhh...issues. :rolleyes:

[Digitalwoodshop]

Sounds to me like "Buy 3 or None from CW" policy is something that would shut down sales in most stores... A little Arm Twisting tactic there in marketing.... Not good for anyone... IF that is the case for real or the Salesman just has a bad attitude...

AL

[ntdiver]

A simple reply to point out that all Canadians have healthcare unlike the US where approximately 50 million folks don't. Unlike the "ChiComs" we voted to ensure that it stays that way.

[fwharris]

I think it is just the general attitude with Woodcraft. Not long after the announced woodcraft was selling the machine I did a visit to our local store. They had a demo sitting on their bench in the training area. The store manager said they had it for about a month but had not done anything with it. I offered to help them give them some training but he quickly declined saying that he did not think anyone would be interested in running it and that any fool could run it as it just a dang wood printer and walked away.

A month or so later did another visit to the store, machine still on bench and never been ran............

[cnsranch]

I've got the same thing here in KC - all really great guys, and all retired looking to do something part time during the day. What a better way to earn a few bucks - fool around in a Woodcraft store, and make a buck or two doing it.

Problem is, they're all "old dogs", and there's no teaching them anything.

BUT.........I see a tremendous avenue there for the new fangled sales rep program LHR is rolling out. If I had the time, the first thing I would do is hook up with WC, and set up a demo for a few Saturdays in their workshop out back. Not only would I make a few bucks, but they'd learn about the CW at the same time.

[lynnfrwd]

Sounds to me like "Buy 3 or None from CW" policy is something that would shut down sales in most stores... A little Arm Twisting tactic there in marketing.... Not good for anyone... IF that is the case for real or the Salesman just has a bad attitude...

AL

The deal was "buy 3 get free shipping"!!! Salesman was wrong!

We would rather have folks that know what they are doing demo the machines anyway.

[TerryT]

Sorry but anyone in business knows that in order to buy wholesale you have to buy in volume. Otherwise we would all call our selves Woodcraft and buy stuff at wholesale. Purchasing several makes you a dealer and not just someone looking for a cheap deal. Now if you are dealing with $10,000 tools you get the manufacturer to floor one or two for you. Purchasing two or three is not unusual. It's business.

[CarverJerry]

That is a real shame the sales guy was like that. I'd take the extra drive and go to sears where you can get better warrenty.

CJ

[Rearden]

A simple reply to point out that all Canadians have healthcare unlike the US where approximately 50 million folks don't. Unlike the "ChiComs" we voted to ensure that it stays that way.

Not pokin' fun at people that play with brooms and big rocks on icy ponds. I actually envy Canada for being smart enough to realize that making millions for insurance companies was a waste of national wealth AND implementing the austerity programs necessary to be able to responsibly afford to cover everybody. What a bizarrely rational approach. So I'll bet our National Debt can squash yours....nany nany pooh pooh.
BTW, until I got sucked in by the damn Olympics I was convinced that there was something strange in your LaBatts that made the aforementioned such an attractive sport to ya'll. Two hours later I was really pissed when they left the coverage to go to some silly ski thing. :)

My ChiCom reference is also meant tongue in cheek since I grew up in a world where they were one of the last great boogiemen, and were always referred to as Communist China, till we became "Progressive"...and now they and the Fed hold the mortgage. I guess they finally won huh? Got a riddle for ya.

How many Federal Reserve notes can ya get for a Canadian dollar...today?

I can also remember when the border States used to poke fun at your currency. Bet they're happy it's so close now.

[Rearden]

Spoke with Lynn about that. We can't get from Sears here any longer, not that it matters. Even with the charge for the extra warranty I still end up with a better deal direct...and best of all, no contribution to the black hole that is my State's general "revenue" blow money. They're like tryin' to ween a crack head off'a da rock.


That is a real shame the sales guy was like that. I'd take the extra drive and go to sears where you can get better warrenty.

CJ

[lynnfrwd]

That is a real shame the sales guy was like that. I'd take the extra drive and go to sears where you can get better warrenty.

CJ

Sears hasn't sold new machine for some time now.

[lynnfrwd]

A simple reply to point out that all Canadians have healthcare unlike the US where approximately 50 million folks don't. Unlike the "ChiComs" we voted to ensure that it stays that way.

I'm thinking this might be spam, but on the other hand I'm inclined to respond...I wonder how many of those 50,000 are truly legal Americans and how many could work and get their own insurance but don't because it's just to easy not to. I could go on...

[gregsolano]

I'm thinking this might be spam, but on the other hand I'm inclined to respond...I wonder how many of those 50,000 are truly legal Americans and how many could work and get their own insurance but don't because it's just to easy not to. I could go on...

I pay hundreds a month for insurance for my family. When my kids finish college I have no doubt they will go without insurance until they have settled into a good job with benefits. We are legal born in the USA hispanics who are lucky to have found jobs where we have insurance as an option. Many, many Americans do not have that luxury. How many CW owners trying to make a living off of wordworking passion could ever afford to pay premiums offered to small businesses or single payers? Our health care system is broke and expecting people to just figure it out for themselves, this is not the American way.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

P.S. I know this is not a political forum but I didn't Start this. ;-)

[lynnfrwd]

I pay hundreds a month for insurance for my family. When my kids finish college I have no doubt they will go without insurance until they have settled into a good job with benefits. We are legal born in the USA hispanics who are lucky to have found jobs where we have insurance as an option. Many, many Americans do not have that luxury. How many CW owners trying to make a living off of wordworking passion could ever afford to pay premiums offered to small businesses or single payers? Our health care system is broke and expecting people to just figure it out for themselves, this is not the American way.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

P.S. I know this is not a political forum but I didn't Start this. ;-)

I fully agree. It's broke! My two oldest are in the same boat. My 18 yr old will be soon just as I was at that age. It needs to be fixed, not taken over!! My fault for continuing this spammers post.

[cnsranch]

My fault for continuing this spammers post.

I'm no so sure - Rearden's a newbie with a warped sense of humor like me, and he happened to light a fire under Doug in BC with his Chi Com comment.

That said, let's not make this a political platform....personally, I'm sick and tired of people confusing rights with entitlements. And if you think our system's a mess, there are some horror stories from our friends up North that will curl your hair.

I won't go on, I promise......

[chebytrk]

I'm no so sure - Rearden's a newbie with a warped sense of humor like me, and he happened to light a fire under Doug in BC with his Chi Com comment.

That said, let's not make this a political platform....personally, I'm sick and tired of people confusing rights with entitlements. And if you think our system's a mess, there are some horror stories from our friends up North that will curl your hair.

I won't go on, I promise......

OK... my two pennies........
The old sayin'... our system may be bad, but it's the best we've got just doesn't really cut it. Kinda like saying "other than that Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" It's bad because we let it get that way. If we could all get on the same health plan that our U.S. Leaders & Congressmen are on we'd all be OK. Course they're exempt from being on our health system. "Nuff Said" : )

[lynnfrwd]

I'm no so sure - Rearden's a newbie with a warped sense of humor like me, and he happened to light a fire under Doug in BC with his Chi Com comment.

That said, let's not make this a political platform....personally, I'm sick and tired of people confusing rights with entitlements. And if you think our system's a mess, there are some horror stories from our friends up North that will curl your hair.

I won't go on, I promise......

My bad, Rearden did start it. I talked to him yesterday and he had me laughing so hard! He's a hoot and I can already tell going to do a lot of "stirring" on this forum.

[pkunk]

OK, it's not spam but it has turned political-so back to Woodcraft. Most General tools are made in China (I heard the same factory as Grizzly, but unconfirmed) and I had a General 24" sander that I felt lucky to sell. In general, General is overpriced for what you get. We all know that the CW is built 'OVER THERE' but generally the quality is monitored by the fine folks in Texas.
Now, Festool-that's another subject. Fine tools if you can afford them. I have 3 myself, and they just purrrrr.

[liquidguitars]

I'm thinking this might be spam, but on the other hand I'm inclined to respond...I wonder how many of those 50,000 are truly legal Americans and how many could work and get their own insurance but don't because it's just to easy not to. I could go on...


I wonder how many of the 50 million are just like you and me, over worked and living the dream as the GOP strives to reduce the last safety nets we have and the Arts, we all just can't make up our own silly TV shows and go rouge pointing a steel finger of righteousness.

Brandon

[cnsranch]

Brandon, Dude......

If it weren't for the GOP, you'd be sitting around drinking vodka till you couldn't see straight, calling everyone Comrade.

'Course, if that's what you want....

[liquidguitars]

Funny... Dems love to fight wars lust like the GOP but we like the environment and clean fishing waters.. Each to their own I guess. Now where is my sharp knife i need to perform some light surgery on my legs.

[cnsranch]

Now where is my sharp knife i need to perform some light surgery on my legs.

You're the King of sleds - build one and let the CW do it (insert smile here).

[Rearden]

Brandon, love your instruments bro'. Some real treasures.

Allow me to enlighten you. The safety net that you appear to comfort yourself by lying at risk at the feet of only half of the irresponsible parties in charge, is and has been nonexistent for quite some time. Wake up my friend...there is no difference between the two, except that they both profit in our suffering. They read Sun Tzu and fully understand divide and conquer...which is all that these idiotic party labels and dogma wars manage to accomplish over us. We are all taking the same screwing.

With the exception of Ron Paul and Dennis Cusinich (sp? - a liberal Democrat of all things) I've yet to hear any of Alibabba's thieves raise an objection to the Federal Reserve giving their owners on Wall Street an additional THREE TRILLION new dollars...on top of the "Too Big To Fail" bailout. And then they refused to tell. It took Bloomberg and Fox Business filing a Federal law suit to make them (kudo's to the last Federal judge on the planet that would even think of crossing the Fed).

The moral of the story here is a little complex, but that's how they want to keep it so you just get a headache and wanna go take a nap when you try to unravel it.

The equities market went up 5% earlier this year, and the traders quote that to get suckers like us to put our dough back in play ('cuz they just haven't stolen enough of it yet). Problem is that the Fed has diluted our money supply by at least 6% that we know of. That's a zero sum game at best...and at worst, as our dollars shrink and the Fed owners wait to cash in on their speculation of $5 gas by the 4th of July, we continue to be kept distracted by their fear mongering (terrorists, fallout, oil spills and new wars) and efforts to keep us buried in debt. It's certainly in their best interests to do so, otherwise we might actually quit bickering amongst ourselves and band together.

That's my life's time dream...that we all come together, and then rise as one and drag every last mother's one of those talking turds into the street and chop their friggin' heads off! (My scale model of the ol' French "National Razor" shall be my first offering at Pattern Depot...scales to full size very accurately). Lay'em in there face up just like Marie and Louie. :smile:Long live "The Terror".

...but for whatever reason...I kinda loose some folks with that last part....some nonsense about being a little extreme...

Anywho...look, we all like or love art, ... and music, just like we love being creative and free and eating and not getting killed or beaten or thrown into jail, but there first must be a something to put the art into, as well as a horse to pull that cart. The well hath run dry, it ain't gonna fill itself...and ya can't squeeze it out'a folks makin' a quarter mill a year. Now if you think you could chase down all of those slippery billionaires and get some of the dough back that they've stolen...hey, I'll hold the flashlight while you spray the poison, but that just ain't gonna happen either. The game is rigged, and trying to pick sides and point fingers just makes you part of their design and that much easier to control. Let's use our Constitution and get a real leader (Bushes and Bamas don't count - they are part of the same pustule) with a real A.G. and start locking these thieves up (unless you're game for my National Razor program). Preferably with very large and sexually confused lifers whose lives they've touched in a special way.

Do you understand that as billions and trillions have been pilfered, we have locked up absolutely no one? We have managed to criminalize almost half of our population in our War on Inanimate Objects though, and I'd get into that here - but that might be considered being political and I'd never wanna be accused of ever trying anything like that.:smile: :wink:

So here's my lame attempt to claim that this is an apolitical post and relevant to the OP:

Spend your money now on hard goods of real value and commodities that you can horde, 'cuz every day that you wait, what little you aren't spendin' to eat, buy gas, and keep a door between you and the wolves, is shrinking faster and faster. The effects expand exponentially, just as the swirl in the toilet accelerates as you near the center.

Gas climbs so everything that moves to market has to eventually go up too. Costs more to get to work, feed you and yours, pay for heat and lights so eventually even you need to get paid more...but where's that gonna come from - 'cuz we all need to get paid more and the boss just raised his prices just to cover his higher fuel costs. Well the gubmint says that they'll pick up medical coverage if I can't or don't... so screw it...the fine for not doing it is cheaper than the freight. Six months later the gubmint is picking up more and more 'cuz everybody is in the same boat!

And who pays for the gubmint's promises...we do. But the only way that they can get the money that they need to keep us from realizing that they lied is to raise our taxes...and that will likely end with their heads bouncin' down the cobblestones...so they just call up the Fed and say "Hey...print me up some mo'" and away they go.

The Fed is happy to oblige. "Fine...we'll send ya another trillion just as soon as you raise that debt thing...oh and BTW...that'll only cost ya 2% 'cuz you're our best customer and we love yer business." So our Congress goes out and borrows another trillion or ten...AT INTEREST. We have been hornswaggled into a game where they can use as much of our money as they want, to curry favor and cement themselves in power, all the while we have abdicated control of our currency to the very pirates that we were told the creation of the Fed was supposed to prevent, all so that we can be forced to borrow what should be our own money...AT INTEREST! Read your history and how Lincoln used Greenbacks and the Gold Rush to finance his "War of Northern Aggression" (in deference to my Texan friends).

What he did was legit according to our Constitution, and made perfect sense (at least from a monetary policy perspective. The Fed managed to replace the last of our Greenbacks with their scrip sometime around 1995, so we've been playin' with their Monopoly money ever since. As for our gold...well the Fed shipped the last of that off to their owners as collateral on our debt years ago. When was the last time you ever heard of anyone being allowed to see it?

All gone.

The Fed holds most of our national debt, not the Chinese or Saudis. Disband them and tell them to shove their IOU's...we'll be out'a debt in less than a decade. What are they gonna do? Repo the White House? Heck tell'em to take it, and Congress too for all I care, and we'll call it even. Tell'em they can have a cherry tree.

Meanwhile...as money gets tighter and tighter, just look down the road a short piece. Is anything getting cheaper? Is your money becoming more valuable? Is it buying more or less?...and this is key! If you can afford to buy the tools that will better position you for life in a retracting economy, better get'em while people will still accept that worthless scrip that we call money, 'cuz ya can't eat art, and my favorite concerto ain't gonna keep me warm and dry.

Maggie Thatcher once said..."the only problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money".

Not exactly genius rhetoric, but ya get the point? We're broke! Maslow would surely concur, we all have needs, but let's face it, food and water trumps Beethoven and Chagall. Art is dependent on the ability and willingness of its patrons to support it. It's asinine to suggest that we do this through anything even close to regulation or governmental control. Consider the Field of Dreams mantra...but slightly improved... "If you build it well, they will come and come again". Adding government brains, graft, lobbyists, lawyers (sorry that was redundant) thieves, rodents, thugs, (sorry...still redundant) to the equation just enhances the likelihood that all art will soon suck, but in a very equal and homogeneous, politically correct way. Be careful what you wish for. We're now living with the realities of that "chicken in every pot" blarney. All that the chickens have done is come home to roost (with apologies to Malcolm).

If you feel that we should extort money from the citizenry to support the arts, while we go from broke to mo' broke, by all means P.M. me or post up in a more appropriate place and I'll happily shed this veneer of reserve and tell ya why I really think that's a bad idea. :wink:

Plant a garden, build a shop, buy some tools and learn how to fix stuff. Might not be a bad idea to pick up a couple of those Sears returns and CL rejects for spare parts while you're installing you solar panels and building your wood gas generator.

There are two...(2)... full service, full capability cabinet shops left in my town and maybe a dozen smaller ones that are still barely hangin' on. Most of which are literally livin' job to job. China can make decent cheap cabinets...but how are they gonna get 'em to market when gas is $10 a gallon? Trains will only get ya so far...and ours suck.

Watch what's happening with all of the other commodities. They aren't headin' down.
Lumber, oil (and all things plastic), food, medicine...all headed over a cliff. The math don't lie, and even if you were only lucky enough to get the State version of an education, you should still be able to see that.

How fast is your income rising? How fast has the price of your material and the expense of moving it risen? How fast has the cost of keeping you fed and clothed risen (cotton's up over 110% this year, and that's before the drought and fires in Texas are figured in later). Just put the numbers on a chart and plot the extrapolation. How far out does it run before the things that you need to live cost more than what you are able to charge for what you make and sell? As a musician (I presume) and builder of beautiful instruments, I'm sure that you realize that the only positive for a music man under those conditions is that there will be a heck of a lot more people gettin' drunk (alcohol always does well in a depression/recession). Only problem of course is that they can't afford to leave a tip.

The last time that folks confronted these kind of challenges was the first Depression. Community based agriculture, small businesses and local was what started the recovery. It didn't really complete of course until the Fed took its heel off of the neck of our money supply and let us arm the world for WWII (FDR had absolutely nothing to do with ending it, just prolonging it...more history left untaught).

Whether you're a small business, or a hobbyist, we will be the kinds of people that will find ourselves invaluable in a new retracted economy. Look around ya. How many youngsters do ya see that can WORK with their hands (melting video game controllers doesn't count)? The only thing better than bein' able to make, build, grow and fix stuff is bein' a plumber...'cuz people always gotta go. Being capable at fabricating stuff and repurposing materials could be the next major evolution.

Sorry for the diatribe. This all plays into why I said originally - that I can understand the reticence of the WoodCraft owner over tying up a few grand in inventory that may sit for a while in such an uncertain climate. Nothing is happening to give them any confidence to put more money on their shelves or hire more help, quite the contrary.

Home Depot has eliminated thousands of SKU's over the last two years to limit their general store appeal and try to focus on the stuff where they actually make the most money (hardware, paint and live goods) and get quicker turns, not tying up billions in loss leader commodities (lumber, drywall and cement). Lowes hasn't followed suit as yet but they invariably will, since their biggest competitor can now turn a higher percentage of their inventory over more quickly and adjust quicker to market changes. Just compare the offerings in their respective plumbing departments one day and you'll see exactly of whence I speak.

What's your pain tolerance for inventory dust collectors? How many instruments can you afford to build and sit on before you resort to discounting just to generate some cash flow? If you are in a weak sector and things are blowing the wrong way you need to re-evaluate your premise and look at ways to change with them. You ain't too big to fail so don't look to the gubmint to force money that doesn't exist in to save your day.
I hear that harmonicas and the blues were real popular during the last great Depression. Might wanna try and get ahead of the curve...

I gotta switch to decaf!

[TerryT]

Whewwww. Eyes darting side to side. Ah..... ok..... so the salesman at Woodcraft told you a bunch of stuff that wasn't true?? How strange.

Actually, most stuff in their store they had to buy a dozen or more of to get wholesale prices. So the "We don't do Carvewright because we had to buy three" story is crap. If Carvewright gives wholesale prices to anyone that just buys one machine then they owe most of us a refund.

[fwharris]

Rearden,

Man I thought the wind was blowing hard here today! LMAO!!!

I think you just took the prize for longest none carving post of the forum!

[Rearden]

Feel the breeze...? :)

Aw shucks...you ought'a see when ya mention sumthin' that I really have a strong opinion about.

As for the three's a crowd excuse, I'm not really sure what the real beef is. Maybe they just make better money on the General that he suggested? I will say that even though they're now the only Festool dealer anywhere nearby, every time I need or want, they have to order it for me. I know I can get it cheaper and almost as fast on-line, but this is the last place in the area that isn't a big box, so I try to give them what business I can so I can still get stuff that isn't either just DeWalt or Ryobi.

Times may just be that hard for'em. Like I said, priorities tend to shift as the stomach growls louder, and that ain't "Happy Days Are Here Again" that I keep hearin'.

[pkunk]

This thread has become too political despite my warning. It's closed..............