Spindle Puller

[bergerud]

If one wants to replace the spindle or the spindle bearings, one has to have a method to remove the spindle. The problem is that these bearings will be tight and this will require some force. One cannot get behind the inner races of either bearing, and so, removing them from the spindle shaft will probably damage them. This is not designed to be a user serviceable part. (Warranty void!!)

When I removed my spindle to replace the bearings, I blocked the truck from below and punched out the spindle shaft from above. (If you do try this, make sure you do not block the bottom bearing when you block the truck as the bottom bearing comes out easily with the spindle. The problem is just to punch the spindle shaft out of the small top bearing. Also, put something soft below to protect the belts if the spindle falls.)

I cannot recommend the above as a safe procedure as parts may be damaged if you are not careful. The accepted method for such a removal would, of course, be to use a press. This, I think, would require removal of the truck from the machine. The purpose of this thread is to discuss and/or invent a safe and simple removal method which does not require the truck to be beaten or removed from the machine.

My second thought would be to make a puller to pull the shaft from below. To try my idea, you will need:



a 2 ½ " long ¼ " bolt and three nuts. (fine thread is better)
a 2” long piece 1 ½ " OD thin wall pipe with a slight angle clearance cut from one side of the top. (see the first picture)
a large 1 ½ " plus, thick washer.
two small pieces of curved wooden shims. These have to wedge between the QC (when adapter is in) and the bottom bearing (and stay inside the pipe).


First, remove the flex shaft, the flexshaft receptacle, and the small clip on the top of the spindle shaft. Slide the plastic outer sleeve down off of the QC. Put the bolt down through a ¼ " bit adapter, tighten the set screws and put the adapter into the QC. Press fit the two wood shims between the top of the QC and the bottom bearing. (These shims are required so the QC cannot let go of the adapter when we pull on it.) Place the pipe over the QC and up against the bottom of the truck with the clearance cut on the top of the pipe at the back. Put the washer and nut on the bolt and tighten finger tight. Adjust the top of the pipe to make sure it fits and is not going to interfere with the outer race of the bottom bearing. Now thread on two more nuts at the end of the bolt and lock them together. With the machine cranked to the top and the truck at the bottom of travel, put one wrench on the lock nuts and tighten the washer nut until the top of the spindle is pulled out of the top bearing.

I cannot fully test this procedure since I do not have a virgin spindle system. I hope one of you will volunteer to test and report.

[AskBud]

Virginity is not the question!
The real question/point, is that you really need the original spec showing all the parts of the spindle assembly. It's probably within the Patent Papers.

You need to see the sequence of how the spindle assembly was put together in the first place. Once you know those facts, you may then attempt to reverse the process.
Respectfully, AskBud

[Jeff_Birt]

Clever puller Bergerus. As long as the QC stays in place it will work fine. When I changed out my bearings I pulled the truck off and first removed the QC. Then using some sockets as spacers, one a bit smaller than shaft at the top, and one a little larger than the bearing on the bottom I was able to press the shaft out with my bench vise (as you are only pressing against the sockets.) Once the shaft is out you can use typical methods for getting the bottom bearing off the shaft.

Some tips to everyone:

1) Before trying this yourself take a look at the square hole in the top of your spindle shaft. This is what the drive shaft/spring locks into and if it is really torn up you may be better off replacing the whole Z-truck rather than buying a shaft and bearings.

2) Take care when putting things back together to press everything in squarely or the tolerance rings (wavy things) will tend to pop out during use.

3) Use common sense when doing this, it does not take a lot of force so if you are really having to try hard - stop and figure out what you are doing wrong.

4) When pressing bearings on/off always try to press only on the inner race or the inner and outer race at the same time. Pressing on only the outer race on the ball area can damage the bearings.

[bergerud]

I have had mine apart many times AskBud. I know exactly what is in there. The only question is whether the rig will pull hard enough to pull out a virgin spindle.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Had another thought.... http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/pullers/blind-hole-bearing-puller-95987.html

This is what I will use when I try this at home.... Removing the Truck from the machine and chucking up a 1/4 inch long bolt with a 1/4 inch outside smooth boar for the chuck... This 1/4 inch bolt looks like it will screw into the end of the sliding hammer much like the bearing fingers shown with it. A few taps of the sliding hammer and if the C Clip is removed the guts should pop out....

Not much different that tapping on the top of the spindle but more violent than Jeff's Vice and 2 Sockets... Jeff's idea would do less damage to the bearings.... Pressure rather than shock...

AL

[AskBud]

Arbor press
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=arbor+press
AskBud

[jaroot]

Some tips to everyone:

2) Take care when putting things back together to press everything in squarely or the tolerance rings (wavy things) will tend to pop out during use.

4) When pressing bearings on/off always try to press only on the inner race or the inner and outer race at the same time. Pressing on only the outer race on the ball area can damage the bearings.

2. We have a refurbished machine and that happened to it. The first time I sent the z truck to LHR for repair, which they did free of charge. Thank you LHR, they didn't have to as the machine was "no warranty." The second time it happened, just a few hours later, I removed the truck and punched the tolerance ring back in and punched three depressions in the housing and never had another problem with it. However now that you mention that the bearings not being set square causes the tolerance ring to back out; that would explain why we had such a dramatic improvement in quality and noise reduction when we put in the Carvetight.

4. I'm not an engineer or much of a mechanic for that matter but beating on the center race rather than the outer race seems counter intuitive. Is that correct? And I ask this merely because I want to make sure that I understand. I'm not trying to rain on anybodies parade. <-insert smiley

[Fletcher]

4. I'm not an engineer or much of a mechanic for that matter but beating on the center race rather than the outer race seems counter intuitive. Is that correct? And I ask this merely because I want to make sure that I understand. I'm not trying to rain on anybodies parade. <-insert smiley

The center race is what is actually holding onto the shaft, the outer race is just riding around the outside on the actual ball bearings inside. If you beat on the outer race you are putting shock and force on the balls and the tracks they ride in. This can put little dents in the track or "race" which then interfere with the function of the bearing. Smooth road vs. bumpy road, one is better for your car, one isn't....

I hope that makes sense! <smile>

[Fletcher]

Brilliant solution BTW Bergerud!

[bergerud]

You know, if it was not for the risk of damaging the top bearing when removing the spindle, this (the spindle puller this thread was about) would have been a better solution to the QC removal problem we all had years ago. Remember the heat, the cursing of Loctite, the stupid square spindle wrench which always broke? On the other hand, the top bearing (6000DU) is a cheap standard bearing available anywhere. The bottom bearing (6002V, I think the V means non contact seal for high rpm), is not so standard is not damaged unless you try to later remove it from the spindle after the spindle is out. But you would not have to remove the bottom bearing. Once the spindle is out, put the fat part of the spindle in a vise and unscrew the QC. Screw on a new QC or the Rock. Put it back together with a new bearing on top and all would have been good again.

It is what I would have done if I knew then what I know now.

[jaroot]

I see. I thought we were pressing it out of the casting. I didn't realize that it is press fitted to the shaft.


The center race is what is actually holding onto the shaft, the outer race is just riding around the outside on the actual ball bearings inside. If you beat on the outer race you are putting shock and force on the balls and the tracks they ride in. This can put little dents in the track or "race" which then interfere with the function of the bearing. Smooth road vs. bumpy road, one is better for your car, one isn't....

I hope that makes sense! <smile>

[Capt Bruce]

I love it Gentlemen,
We are coming together to YES. Much clearer now.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I love it Gentlemen,
We are coming together to YES. Much clearer now.

Just give me my Crescent Hammer and Screw Chisel ....and some masking tape and I can fix anything...

If you are removing the bearings to replace them that is one thing and somewhat destructive means can be used like the sliding sledge hammer.... If you are re using or inserting bearings than the Press is the best option.... I am suggesting the Sliding Sledge for not using them again....


AL

[Fletcher]

I see. I thought we were pressing it out of the casting. I didn't realize that it is press fitted to the shaft.

Good point! It depends on which race is press-fit that you are trying to remove. I made an assumption based on the picture of the bottom bearing still on the shaft. In any situation when trying to remove a bearing, you should be sure to put the pressure on the race that is locked in, or on.

[ktjwilliams]

Hmmmm !!!! interesting....

[bergerud]

Is there anybody out there who has tried the puller and can report on how it works? Is this forum all talk and no action? Come on, someone must have an old machine or truck with bad bearings which needs the spindle pulled.

[Dan-Woodman]

I replaced the spindle bearing without any kind of puller. I just removed the truck from the machine ,removed the retaining clip on top of the shaft, and tapped the shaft out with a dowel rod and hammer. It came out a lot easier than expected.
later Daniel

[bergerud]

I just bought a second hand B machine and finally got a chance to try my spindle puller on a virgin spindle. It worked like a charm and that spindle was tight. The top bearing seems undamaged. It would not have survived the pounding that it would have taken to punch this spindle out. Now that the spindle is out, the QC can be removed from the spindle using a vise and a wrench. I am replacing the spindle with an ER spindle and care not about the QC and old spindle. I think, however, that this is a safer and better method of removing an old QC than the earlier heat method. For those of you who are replacing a lock tited QC or installing the Rock chuck, I recommend making this simple puller. It is also useful if you want to change the spindle bearings!

Anyway, this was an old post of mine and I just wanted to report that the thing really does work!

[ktjwilliams]

Fine work as usual !!:mrgreen:

[Nick68]

I really injoyed reading this thread...Thanks bergerud for starting it and finishing it.

[bergerud]

Thank you. I remember thinking that this was the greatest thing. People seemed afraid to remove the spindle as the truck and spindle are considered to be a single part by LHR. There are good reasons for pulling the spindle. For example, to replace the spindle bearings, to replace the chuck, or to reinstall the lower tolerance ring. I will tell you that it drives me nuts when I hear of someone having to buy a whole new truck because the lower tolerance ring has fallen out. Or when someone wants to upgrade to the CT has to buy the whole truck. Just pull out the old spindle and put in a new one on - come on!

[henry1]

If one wants to replace the spindle or the spindle bearings, one has to have a method to remove the spindle. The problem is that these bearings will be tight and this will require some force. One cannot get behind the inner races of either bearing, and so, removing them from the spindle shaft will probably damage them. This is not designed to be a user serviceable part. (Warranty void!!)

When I removed my spindle to replace the bearings, I blocked the truck from below and punched out the spindle shaft from above. (If you do try this, make sure you do not block the bottom bearing when you block the truck as the bottom bearing comes out easily with the spindle. The problem is just to punch the spindle shaft out of the small top bearing. Also, put something soft below to protect the belts if the spindle falls.)

I cannot recommend the above as a safe procedure as parts may be damaged if you are not careful. The accepted method for such a removal would, of course, be to use a press. This, I think, would require removal of the truck from the machine. The purpose of this thread is to discuss and/or invent a safe and simple removal method which does not require the truck to be beaten or removed from the machine.

My second thought would be to make a puller to pull the shaft from below. To try my idea, you will need:


a 2 ½ " long ¼ " bolt and three nuts. (fine thread is better)
a 2” long piece 1 ½ " OD thin wall pipe with a slight angle clearance cut from one side of the top. (see the first picture)
a large 1 ½ " plus, thick washer.
two small pieces of curved wooden shims. These have to wedge between the QC (when adapter is in) and the bottom bearing (and stay inside the pipe).

First, remove the flex shaft, the flexshaft receptacle, and the small clip on the top of the spindle shaft. Slide the plastic outer sleeve down off of the QC. Put the bolt down through a ¼ " bit adapter, tighten the set screws and put the adapter into the QC. Press fit the two wood shims between the top of the QC and the bottom bearing. (These shims are required so the QC cannot let go of the adapter when we pull on it.) Place the pipe over the QC and up against the bottom of the truck with the clearance cut on the top of the pipe at the back. Put the washer and nut on the bolt and tighten finger tight. Adjust the top of the pipe to make sure it fits and is not going to interfere with the outer race of the bottom bearing. Now thread on two more nuts at the end of the bolt and lock them together. With the machine cranked to the top and the truck at the bottom of travel, put one wrench on the lock nuts and tighten the washer nut until the top of the spindle is pulled out of the top bearing.

I cannot fully test this procedure since I do not have a virgin spindle system. I hope one of you will volunteer to test and report.
I have made myseft myselft a jig now to pull bearing work great now is the putting bearing back in, do you have a way to put them back in if need be and appreciat all your help thank you in advance

[henry1]

Hey berge spindle puller

[bergerud]

It is not hard to put the spindle back in. Put a thick block of wood on the belts under the truck. With the top bearing in (to help guide the spindle straight) you can push the spindle and lower bearing into the lower tolerance ring by hand. When it is all lined up push the truck down and the block will push the spindle up. The top bearing will push out when you do this and that is ok. Now with a socket or small pipe on the inner race, tap the top bearing back down onto the spindle shaft and into the upper tolerance ring. Hope this helps, it was what I did.

[henry1]

thx alot that will work for me and well appreciated

[Rocketman]

Spindle puller failure. I made an adapter based on your design and tested it. I had a few setbacks. Getting the piece of pipe to sit flat requires some trial and error with the grinder. My Z truck casting is far from flat and I struggled to get the pipe to fit tight against my cast Z truck. A few turns of the wrench resulted in a loud bang and things went loose. I thought great! Not so great, it turned out my chuck broke in a couple of spots. I next setup my casting under the spindle of my old drill press on top of three ground form tools made for a lathe. I put a piece of scrap hardened tool steel on top to keep things flat and tried to press the spindle out part of the way with the quill. No dice! I then added a pipe wrench to the drill press where the handle goes and extended it with a long piece of pipe. Pulling with extreme force at the end of this pipe produced an even louder bang!! This time things were moving where they should be. A bearing driver spacer on top got it apart the rest of the way. That thing was really tight.

I didn't want to fight it so much putting it all back together with my new er-20 spindle and bearing so I put the spindle in the freezer at -4 degrees for several hours. I then heated up the bearing in the oven to 200 degrees. When I went to put them together it took just a light tap with a big hammer to seat the bearing against the shoulder of the spindle. It assembled into the casting easy using my vice and some spacers to press it together. The hole in my Z truck casting for the lock pin was drilled with whatever drill I had that fit through the existing holes in my new spindle. (just under 1/4" I think)

I put some heat shrink tubing on my carving bit and my cutting bit to make tool changes easier. I put things back together and test run the spindle for 5 minutes. It was warm so I tested it longer. After 45 minutes more the spindle was hot to the touch. I let it cool down. I ran a 4-1/2 hour carve and kept an eye on the temp. After an hour it started to cool down and now runs just as cool as my original spindle did. The noise level seems quieter but it's hard to tell over the screaming spindle motor howl. My carve using the normal setting came out fine. I really can't say if the carves are better or not because I used a 4 flute ball mill instead of the 3 flute I had been using with my old chuck. I can say the chips were more dust than chips with the 4 flute and it did burn my project in a couple of spots. It also lugged down my spindle in a couple of spots so again I can't say it was because of the 4 flute verses 3 flute or other reasons. It was soft wood using the normal setting. While the 4 flute might work better at slower settings in hardwood; I'm thinking I like the results of the 3 flute better.

Over all I'm impressed with the workmanship of the spindles you designed. I ordered 4 of them from your supplier, figured I could machine a couple of good ones for my machines out of the 4 and still save some money. I did some measuring of my original and checked the results against your design update print and the spindles from the supplier. In the end I ended up turning the shoulder back farther than you suggested. Not quite as far as my original. I split the difference. The fit turned out perfect when it came time to snap on the snap ring. As hard as they are, it makes turning even with carbide inserts quite the challenge. Slow speeds and a lot of squealing got the job done. I don't have a collet chuck on my lathe so getting it trued up exact enough to mess with the internal taper was not something I was going to do unless I had to. I'm running it just as it came out of China. I didn't put an indicator on it but I can't see any wobble by eye when it's running and it's not vibrating my machine when running. It's for wood, and as far as I'm concerned it's still light years better than my original quick chuck. I could see that wobble!

Now if I want to use one of my engraver cutters or other specialty cutters I can. I like the idea of being able to chuck them up short when the material allows it.

I studied the truck while off the machine. You really didn't have much wiggle room with your conversion. We really need a different truck. I really wanted another day with the truck to take some measurements off of it and draw it up on the computer so I could work on a model to cast and machine. I'd like to find a bigger bearing and work up a new design around it. I'd go with matching bearings top and bottom to keep it simple. I don't like the idea of holes around the spinning spindle. That square hole in the back of mine was collecting saw dust and now the hole in front for tools changes is doing it also. I've been putting a piece of tape over it for now. There's so little space between the spindle and the housing that any wood dust getting in there would generate heat fast.

Being a machinist for most of my life with some tool and die work under my belt I can truly say who ever made these parts in China has been around quite some time. These spindles are more of the quality you see coming out of Japan by the cnc makers and the bearing makers. Not only hardened but ground to size after! Very fine work. There is no way any company in the U.S.A. could compete with the workmanship being offered even at triple the price. If we ever get a new design worked up for a truck and spindle I'd recommend this guy as a possible supplier.

Brad

[bergerud]

I always wondered if the puller could handle a really stubborn spindle. It worked fine om the three I pulled. It is only the small top bearing that the spindle needs to be pulled out of. You would not think it would be that hard.

I was also quite happy with the quality of the Chinese spindles. Besides fixing them, one might also want to balance the nuts. The nuts have an off centered ring inside (to pull on and release the collet) and so, are not balanced.

There are others who would like to convert to these ER20M spindles. If you bought more and fixed them, I am sure you could sell them.