Make Your Own ER11 Spindle

[bergerud]

I have a B machine which came with the QC chuck. We all know how poor some of these were. Some were out of balance, the bit wobbled, and the adapters would get stuck in the taper. I spent some time fixing the original QC and used it for the first 200 hours. One day carving cast acrylic, the rpm dropped because the cut rate was too fast and the QC allowed the adapter to be pulled out. (The centrifugal fly ring halves fail to hold the outer casing down at low rpm!) Broke my original carving bit, that was it, I removed the QC for good. While others were buying the Rock Chuck, I fashioned my own using the chuck from an air die grinder. I have been using this for the last 300 hours. It worked but the available collect sizes are limited to 3/32",1/8",3/16", and 1/4" . I could not find a 3/16" and since there is significant run out on these, I decided I needed a new chuck.

The Rock and the Carvetight really do not make any sense to me. Why have a big heavy chuck which is made to hold 1/2" shanks? Who in there right mind would use router bits that require 1/2" shanks on the end of that flex cable? If the router bit you want to use cannot be obtained with a 1/4" shank, you better think again! Just because Carvewright sells a bit set with 1/2" shanks (Yes, I have the set too) is not enough of a reason to put a slug of a chuck on the machine. (I think the 1/2" shank obsession was introduced because the set screws in the QC adapters could not hold the larger router bits if they had 1/4" shanks. The QC is gone - let the 1/2" shanks go too.) I was disappointed with the Carvetight solution. I really thought they would have fixed the QC. Better quality control, a stronger spring, less mass, and a better way to break the taper… etc. At least I thought they would have made a chuck that was compatible with the old adapters. Oh well.

On the other hand, why reinvent the wheel. There are very nice collet type chucks on other CNC machines. The ER series of collet chucks sport very small run outs and they have collet sets that cover all sizes and have no problem holding solid carbide bits. The ER11 chuck is exactly what I think the Carvewright should have come with. The only argument, I can think of, against a chuck like this is that maybe projects which require bit changes are difficult without bit adapters or collars to set the bit length. This problem, however, is caused only since the software is written to measure all the bits first and then make you switch them back later. (That’s just annoying.) Just measure the bits when they are used!! Am I wrong? In any case one can still use collars, a stop plug, or collets fixed to the bits. (Most of my projects are single bit carves anyway.)

I bought an ER11 collet chuck with a 12 mm shaft on it. Bought a big bottom bearing with a ID of 12 mm and turned the end of the shaft to 10 mm to fit the standard top bearing and clip ring. I press fit a slug into the top of the hollow shaft, drilled a hole and filed it square for the flex shaft. To make the chuck hang far enough down to be compatible with the bigger Carvewright chucks, I reluctantly had to add a 1/4" spacer under the big bearing. I now have a light chuck with very small run out which will hold any size bit up to 1/4". The lightness means less stress on the flex shaft, cut motor, and the z drive.

If you have access to a machine shop (small lathe really) and you love the Carvewright like I do, you should consider making an ER11 spindle to replace your QC. (If you really want a slug of a chuck to use those expensive bits you bought, the ER20 will take shafts up to 1/2”)

[gregsolano]

Very impressive, seems to work well, have you found a decrease in noise?

[bergerud]

There is no vibration at all. (Unlike some of the old QCs.) I am sure the Rock and the Carvetight are also well balanced and quiet.

[liquidguitars]

Very cool!!!

[gregsolano]

I have the carvetight C machine and never had any others so I don't have a comparison, I have read that there was significant noise reduction with Rock and Carvetight compared to QC.

[bergerud]

The point here is not really about noise reduction, it is about having a nice small precision chuck which frees one from proprietary adapters and bits. For example, I can use a 3/32" shaft diamond burr to go over a carving a second time and sand it. I can buy and use various carbide bits and end mills that can be bought by the dozen on ebay. I can use a 1/8" end mill with only 1/2" length of cut and it does not break! The main advantage is freedom!

[Digitalwoodshop]

Sounds like a good design. DO you use 2 wrenches to change bits?

Would you ever consider a "We send you a Z Truck and you do the conversion for X dollars?"

I had heard the spindle Bearings were Ceramic. Did you use a Ceramic Bearing?

AL

[lawrence]

Very nice-- I'd love to hear what your total cost for the conversion was

Thanks for sharing-
Lawrence

[bergerud]

No, I did not use ceramic bearings, but I thought about it and I certainly could have. I do have to use two wrenches. I don't mind. It would, however, be easy to have spring loaded lock button on the truck. I might do that.

I am sorry but I have little time to make conversions for others. I have only a feeble little lathe. I am happy,however, to share what I do if others want to try it themselves. It is fairly simple to buy the ER collet parts and turn them to fit.

[bergerud]

I suppose it cost about $100. ER11 chuck - $25, set of collets - $60 (could buy fewer), new bearings - $20.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I understand the time factor.... I am super busy too....

This is a Great option and the 2 wrenches would work for me... Or the lock...

Thanks,

AL

[Fletcher]

Awesome modification!

[kool69sporty]

Berger, I think many of us would be interested if you could offer your source for parts and more specifics for making the ER fit the CW. THNX. Joe

[earlyrider]

PCH-ER11-0500 $69.00 on sale @ Gaging.com. Didn't get a price on collets tho. The only real challenge would be making the square hole for the flex.
Ron

[bergerud]

Just search ebay with "ER11 shank". There are cheap ones from China for around $25. These are hardened steel and seem ok to me. There are more expensive American ones of stainless and ones with nice mini nuts. Also search Google. They all have different shank sizes and are hollow for a draw bolt. Buy one with either 10 or 12 mm shank. The ones with larger shanks have bigger hollows and may not turn down to 10mm for the top bearing. I bought a 12mm x 32mm x 10mm bearing (6201) which fits the truck and the 12mm shaft. I only had to turn the end to 10mm and turn a slot for the clip. Also, it is important to buy imperial collets and not metric ones. The metric ones will work but they will have to expand or compress to fit and it's just not right. I have not seen any imperial China collets on ebay (and if you do beware) . I found imperial collets at Shars but they cost more and they have not arrived yet.

[liquidguitars]

Hi Bergerud,

can you walk us through removing the spindle?

[bergerud]

It was a long time ago that I removed the the original spindle to replace the bearings. I remember that the bearings fit very tight. The bottom bearing (6002V) comes out with the spindle. The top bearing (6000DU) stays in the truck and takes the beating. It will be ruined from punching the shaft through it. I blocked the truck below with a board and metal blocks and used a punch of slightly smaller diameter than the 10mm shaft. Machines may vary, I remember mine was tight. It did not tap out easily. Be careful not to flare the top of the shaft by crushing the clip ring slot. Both bearings, however, come out of the truck easily. They each have a corrugated vibration ring around them. Buy new bearing before you try it.

[Jeff_Birt]

There are cheap ones from China for around $25.

'Cheap' being the operative word. Unless buying from a known supplier I would avoid imported tooling as its quality varies tremendously.


No, I did not use ceramic bearings,

Ceramic bearings are really needed due to the high speed. Steel balls will not hold up very long at 25,000RPM. No point in going to all the work to do the modification only to have to redo things in short order.

I would also carefully consider what collets are used. Again there are really cheap imported collets that are not very accurate nor do they hold up well. Add a cheap collet to a cheap ER11 chuck and you can wind up with run-out as great as with the QC. Minimizing run-out is the key to long bit life and happy carving.

[bergerud]

I have been waiting for you to jump in, thanks. You are an expert on these ER chucks. I know these Chinese parts are cheap, if the experiment is successful, I plan to buy higher quality parts. A stainless spindle with the mini nut and maybe ceramic bearings. Chinese stuff is getting better though (not good for our economies) and I am not sure the more expensive parts are worth the difference. (I beg to differ that any spindle could run out like the QC!)

I think you should make up an ER11 conversion kit with and without ceramic bearings for Soigeneris to sell. What do you think?

[bergerud]

No reply from Jeff. OK, I get it. My thread is being "moderated". Killed by a poo poo from Jeff. This is not the first time this has happened. There seems to be a subset of senior members who act like they are on the LHR payroll. I find this quite distasteful. I worked hard to try and explain what I did and why. Of course my spindle idea is contrary to LHR's proprietary bit system and the Carvetight chuck. So poo poo.

I am a academic; I believe in free exchange of ideas and of better inventions. I hoped for an open discussion on the spindle subject. I hoped someone (maybe even LHR) would realize this type of spindle makes for a better machine. Maybe it should be the new "Rock" chuck. In any case, that's it for me, this is my last post. I do not think I will post in this forum again.

[lawrence]

is there something we arn't seeing--Was there a PM sent that discouraged you? I'm finding this post to be quite interesting, but just haven't had anything to add. Have we gotten the whole story just by reading what is posted above? If so, I'm not really seeing any foul on Jeff's part as there hasn't been any "moderation" that I know of. (everyone around here knows it takes more than a subliminal message to shut me up)

I'd love to continue to hear of your experience with this new chuck-- I have a Rock chuck so I probably won't be switching to anything else at any point soon, but I think there are quite a few of us that find your concept interesting. I am also curious if the bearings on the carvewright are ceramic or steel-
Lawrence

[Kenm810]

I also read your post -- (twice) -- and found the subject innovative and interesting,
I also have the Rock Chuck System quite and satisfied with it -- but always open to new thoughts and ideas.

[hess]

maybe there is something I dont see here but many of us are reading and interestedin what you are saying. With that I dont see any of the old censorship going on if that is true than get your pantes out of a wad and contiue you reports many want to know about things like this. I use the Rock and the Eliminator this is new to me

[CarverJerry]

I agree, come on now keep this thread going, I too use the Rock and love it but it never hurts to have different ideas and to expand our options. So come on BERGERUD, PLEASE keep your idea going, it's HOT and we appriecate your posting here. And I'm waiting to hear about these bearings on the CW being ceramic or steel, for some reason I thought I'd read something a while back in another thread about them being ceramic, oil getting in from the flex shaft being over lubbed and becoming hot.

CarverJerry

[liquidguitars]

Jerry +100 man...

[Jeff_Birt]

What are you talking about? This thread has not been 'moderated' in any way. All I did was offer some advice. I have infact put regular steel ball bearings in my machine and they did not last, so I had to replace them a few months later with the correct ceramic ones. So I am speaking from direct experience. Am I not allowed to make observations or post anything?


I am a academic; I believe in free exchange of ideas and of better inventions.

For everyone but me I guess.

Geesh, I'll go back to my corner now...

[hess]

Hey Jeff I got to go with you this time!! I thought you were allowing the talk to go very open! Im begining to think this is a danged if you do or dont type of thing Too bad.

Anyway thought you did well now get back in your corner

[Dan-Woodman]

I would like to here more about these ceramic bearings. When I think of ceramic , I think of tile on the wall or floor, and it doesn't seem like that would be a good thing to make bearings out of . Obvisously I'm wrong. Also I take it we're talking about the spindle bearings?
later Daniel

[Digitalwoodshop]

Honestly I did not see anything negative from Jeff and thought that was imaginary in nature. Sure he could have gotten a bigger pat on the back for a job well done. The new chuck does have merrit.... The rock chuck still meets my needs in the 1/4 inch version. I am not in that big of a hurry to be beating on my bearings to remove the shaft and install another shaft.

While at Sony we had extensive Bearing Training Classes as I rebuilt Conveyor Gear Boxes on a regular basis and had the proper equipment from the ovens to presses. So I know the end result of hammering a bearing out and a new one in without the proper equipment... It is a Gamble... That makes the Rock a much better fit for me.

And getting the correct Ceramic Bearing is important to me as it is the speed and load of the spindle that will take out the steel bearings in short order... Having been reading and posting here since 2007 the first question was did you use a ceramic bearing and the answer was no.

There is a ton of stuff about Ceramic Bearings on the web... Here is a quick link to the type we use, metal and ceramic.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/CeramicBallBearings

Good Luck with your new chuck.

AL

[jaroot]

I guess I'll put my foot in the bucket! I also didn't see anything particularly negative about Jeff's post. I did think the comment about "cheap chinese" was a bit humorous considering the our machine is basically a "cheap Chinese" machine as I understand it. I'm all for postings that will enlarge our information pool regarding the CW and open up options for all of us.

BTW anybody know where I might find a collet that will fit in a Carvetight chuck that will hold a 0.185 shaft?

[bergerud]

OK, let me be waste everyone's time and explain why I got upset with the post from Jeff. The main purpose of my post was to show the members what I found is a cheap and better alternative to any of the chucks we have been using. Jeff took quotations from my post and used them out of context to put a negative spin on my low cost spindle idea. He used cheap Chinese spindle to mean garbage with excessive run out worse than the QC. He then, quoting that since my bearings were not ceramic, that the project was not really worth it. I think both of these statements are malicious and untrue. I would have been ok with this if Jeff had come back to continued a positive discussion. When he did not reply, It seemed to me he was just trying to end the thread.

The China spindles are precision ground hardened steel. I will bet that 95% of the reputable American spindles are also made in China. The ebay spindle for $25 is probably the same as the American one for $60.

To my knowledge, all of the Carvewright machines have steel bearings. They easily last if they are set up right with a slight side load between them. I do not know if Carvewright has ever used ceramic bearings. My guess is that they have not, and, that makes the need for ceramic bearings a red herring in this thread.

If I had mistakenly offended a member on the forum, I would apologize - not try and defend myself by further quoting and attacking the member as being unreasonable. (Even if true!)

If I was a moderator who has a company selling carving bits in competition with LHR yet I was able to advertise my company on the forum, and further, my company also sells an ER16 collet holder which is “compatible with the Carvetight”, I would be careful not to appear biased.


In a post some time ago, I was trying to explain how take the QC completely a part and how I thought it actually worked. I was explaining the function of the two half rings which fly out against the taper of the outer sleeve and force the sleeve down. This action holds the adapter tight. In the case of a low rpm stall the fly rings do not work and, the carving bit with its downward pulling helix can yank the adapter right out.
Jeff replied that it was simply the balls that hold the adapter in. He implied that my whole description was garbage. How far is a post going to go after a moderator slams it. I over reacted then as I have now.

[Ben Coleman]

bergerud, I do not own a machine at this time but have been thinking about buying one. You seemed to have a positive idea and want to move forward. Would like to speak with you on the phone or contact by email. Ben Coleman 303-263-3027 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 303-263-3027 end_of_the_skype_highlighting <trapezebc@yahoo.com> Had left5 my info the other day but it did not reach you.. Will try again.

[Digitalwoodshop]

EDITED VERSION BY AL OK,

To my knowledge, all of the Carvewright machines have steel bearings. They easily last if they are set up right with a slight side load between them. I do not know if Carvewright has ever used ceramic bearings. My guess is that they have not, and, that makes the need for ceramic bearings a red herring in this thread.


In a post some time ago, I was trying to explain how take the QC completely a part and how I thought it actually worked. I was explaining the function of the two half rings which fly out against the taper of the outer sleeve and force the sleeve down. This action holds the adapter tight. In the case of a low rpm stall the fly rings do not work and, the carving bit with its downward pulling helix can yank the adapter right out.
Jeff replied that it was simply the balls that hold the adapter in. He implied that my whole description was garbage. How far is a post going to go after a moderator slams it. I over reacted then as I have now.

Lynn,

A little help here..... Can you print this for the Engineering Hardware guys and get us feedback about 1. Ceramic Spindle Bearings YES OR NO and 2. This Fly Ring Theory about the operation of the old QC... I have never heard of it and I am not ready to push the "I believe that" button yet... The QC was designed by NASA Engineers and this "Spinning Theory" will hold the bit tighter is interesting.... I had it that it was all "springs" and nothing to do with the spinning...

Thanks Lynn.....

AL

[jack halley]

Anything that would allow me to be more flexible and economic in the running of the machine with as good or better quality gets my vote.

[liquidguitars]

I had it that it was all "springs" and nothing to do with the spinning...



Hi Al,

I have a few friends that work at JPL that sent me this image recently taken of astropd b1749. It's called a Newtonian CW Asteroid wave dynamic. or CWAWD for short. thankfully the odd objects have almost out lived their life span and CT energy will make a more stable gravity field. I keep you updated when i get more information.


http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/Asstroid04.jpg

[Jeff_Birt]

Bergerud, I'm not sure why you insist on reading motives into my comments that were certainly not intended. I implied nothing negative about your modification and was only offering advice based on my experience. I have already recounted my comments on bearings were based on experience, with the information about the bearing composition coming from one of the CW engineers.

This forum exists to allow all of use CarveWright owners to share and build on each others ideas, not tear each other down. You have repeatedly attacked me personally and I have done no such disservice to you. If you have a personal grief with me than contact me directly and lets just have a polite conversation. I bet if we were able to have a cup of coffee the animosity would melt away.




If I was a moderator who has a company selling carving bits in competition
with LHR yet I was able to advertise my company on the forum, and further, my
company also sells an ER16 collet holder which is “compatible with the
Carvetight”, I would be careful not to appear biased.


I do run a web based company and sell all sorts of desktop sized CNC related things. Some of the items can be used on a CarveWright most of them cannot. I would guess that 99.5% of my sales are things completly unrelated to CarveWright. Since I rarely mention the fact on here, other then a link in my signature, I suspect most folks were unanware of my company until you brought it up.

The item you are referring above to is a 1/2" shank ER16 collet chuck from PreciseBits, designed to let folks who use router motors that accept a 1/2" shank tool to use ER16 collets (so you hcan hold a larger variety of tools.) Mostly this type of router motor is used by folks with small to medium sized router tables.

The text of that page is taken from the manufacture's description. You could use it with a CarveWright for some bits but you have to cut a bit off the shank to do so. I don't know of anyone using one of these chucks in a CarveWright though. So, in short it is completely unrelated to what you are describing, it does NOT replace the CarveWright spindle like you modification did, NOR was I referring to it in any way.

I have an ER11 collet chuck with a 1/2" shank that I have been using for a few years now. Originally I tried it in the Quick change but the tolerance stack up led to a lot of run-out. After switching over the the CarveTight I like it a lot better. Still it is an 'add on' to the existing chuck not a conversion like you did. But it does give me a way to experiment with different bits.

The largest CarveWright specific item as far as recent sales go is the Nyloc Z-truck screws, of which I have sold perhaps a dozen sets, not likely to retire on that income. I don't sell them because I make a lot of money from them but because it was something that made life easier for me so I offered them to make life a bit easier for other folks too.

I also designed the backlit LCD screen for the CarveWright about three years ago and have sold perhaps 2 dozen of those, again I have covered my cost on them but not really made much. It was another item that solved a need I had and since the design was done why not offer it to others?

I volunteered as a moderator at a time when there was a big spam problem. Now that the forum software has improved there is not much to do really. There are perhaps only 1-2 spam reports every few weeks. Other than that I just read and enjoy the forum like everyone else.

[Digitalwoodshop]

LG,

After watching the 2005 War of the Worlds last night for the first time complete and seeing the CW QC Asteroid WOW..... Great Photo Shop work....

Reminds me of the time the V60 QC Bit ejected and hit the plastic cover hard enough to lift it and stop the machine... Later found in in the bottom of the machine.... Keypad side.

Thanks,

AL

****************************

Jeff,

Well that was an education.... Visiting Jeff's site....

I had known about the LCD Kit's but not the Screws.... And I thought the screws were metric.... Learn something new every day....

The ER-11 info was an education....

Thanks,

AL


I have expanded my wish list.... 3 LCD's.... Lots of Screws....

[liquidguitars]

I had known about the LCD Kit's


I have one on one of my machines from Jeff and really dig it.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Yes, it will lend well to the Wired Shop.... A CCTV Camera on the machine in a few places.... also able to read the display from the Laser shop or Kitchen... With a Remote kill (Cover Switch) switch at my computer while I listen and watch it carve in the comfort of the laser shop.

I already have the I Switch to turn off the Dust Collector when the machine goes off...

And a wired Smoke Detector with Relay that trips the Remote Kill Switch stopping the machine too....

Cool....

AL

1:14 AM Quitting time...

[liquidguitars]

question how do i remove a old spindle is it pressed out from the top or bottom? just asking..

[jaroot]

Those are the screws for the z truck bearings aren't they? The ones in my machine are metric.



Jeff,

Well that was an education.... Visiting Jeff's site....

I had known about the LCD Kit's but not the Screws.... And I thought the screws were metric.... Learn something new every day....

[bergerud]

I am sorry Jeff if I have got you wrong. Your post, however, did come across as negative. Think in context of the average member reading through the thread and considering making himself such a spindle. Then he comes to your post, a post by one of the authorities of the forum. The post gives no merit to the idea and implies that much more expensive parts would be required to make the refit worthwhile. The novice reading this post would certainly be discouraged thinking he has to buy ceramic bearings. (I still cannot believe you said that!) Please reread your post and try and see how someone else might see it as a tear down.

Again, I am sorry if your motives were pure as you say. In that case my "personal attacks" were certainly uncalled for. I have a tendency to overreact against authority.

[liquidguitars]

now that we all cool, can we get back to instruction how one could rebuild and repair or this post is not very informative. I tired to remove the spindle but i was afraid that i would damage the castings. do I hammer out the bearing? or just press it from the top or bottom.. anyone?

[Jeff_Birt]

I have a tendency to overreact against authority.


Don't worry, I have NONE :)


Those are the screws for the z truck bearings aren't they? The ones in my
machine are metric.

Yes, we are talking about the screws the go through the center of the Z-truck bearings. Unless the have recently switched they are just SAE screws. I used nylocs on my machine the last time I put it back together to avoid the issues with using threadlocker and offered sets of them to make it easier for others to do the same.


do I hammer out the bearing? or just press it from the top or bottom..
anyone?

DO NOT use a hammer. You press the spindle shaft out from the top. Then you can press the lower bearing off the shaft. When reassembling things it is really wise to replace the tolerance rings (wavy pieces of metal around the bearings.) If you don't keep everything square you can have an issue with the ring popping back out while in use. It is not a hard job, but it does require some care.

[jaroot]

Yes, we are talking about the screws the go through the center of the Z-truck bearings. Unless the have recently switched they are just SAE screws. I used nylocs on my machine the last time I put it back together to avoid the issues with using threadlocker and offered sets of them to make it easier for others to do the same.

Let me rephrase that, "I used metric screws in mine." I simple took the ones that I removed to HD and found Allen Head screws that matched and they happened to be metric. My machine is not new but the most recent truck is a Carvetight but I used the screws in the bearings for it as well as the prior install of my first replacement z truck.

[Digitalwoodshop]

I think I opened a can of worms.... I think they are metric.... LYNN..... A little help......

Calling LYNN...... Forum to LYNN.... 2 to beam up..... LOL...

AL

Ok... Called Hardware Suppport Robert and they are Metric.... sorry.....

[lynnfrwd]

Whoa...Hi Al!

OK...printing and delivering message! Stand by!

[chebytrk]

I think I opened a can of worms.... I think they are metric.... LYNN..... A little help......

Calling LYNN...... Forum to LYNN.... 2 to beam up..... LOL...

AL

Ok... Called Hardware Suppport Robert and they are Metric.... sorry.....

Ha ! Reminded me of what someone sent me once about "beaming up"... "Scotty!, that's not funny, now beam down my pants!"

[Jeff_Birt]

I think I opened a can of worms.... I think they are metric

Well, color me confused. I looked the screws up in the new parts manual and it says they are a M5x0.8x14mm. With a 0.8mm pitch that would be about 20 threads per inch. The screws I have been using/selling are in fact 10-32x3/4". The major diameter of an M5 and 10-32 is very close but the pitch is WAY off so there is no way that you could thread a 10-32 in place of a M5.

I'll have to give CW a call and find out if this has been changed recently (though my 2007 parts manual says they are metric as well.)

[Digitalwoodshop]

In all fairness... Lets review some of AL Who's Biggest CW Blunders....

First.... I had traced the circuits on the X Termination and with it feeding the X Drive Motor and the fact that that board had 115 Volts AC on it and this big Transistor... Q1.... I Assumed that because of the Board Weight.... The X Drive MUST be a 115 Volts AC Heavy Motor....

Can we say WRONG...... early Picture to prove me WRONG.... The 115 Volts AC and Q1 Transistor are for turning on and off the Cut Motor.... Give me a DAaaaa...... I was not corrected for at least a YEAR..... During a phone call to LHR I asked and the Engineer said it was all SERVO Motors.... All the same size.... Just more Reduction Gears for the Troque....


Second.... I posted the pictures of the new Z Bundle with the old cable marked 16 pin and posted that picture was re posted over a year before someone said... You know AL.... The old one is a 18 pin cable..... Give me another DAaaaaa.....

Third.... The first time I had a Y Gear Box Bearing Failure I failed to clean the dirt off the 2 bearings and since my Big Gear Shaft was worn Thin I ASSUMED that there were BABBITT SLEEVE BEARINGS in that Gear Box.... I even posted for more than a year.... Lube the back of the Y Gear box where the C Clip is to help prevent wear to the Sleeve Babbitt Bearing.... Imagine my shock when someone posted the gear box and the 2 bearings removed from it.... He too had a worn shaft... BUT BEARINGS.... I had the old Gear Box in my Desk Drawer from taking pictures of it.... I wiped the dirt and there was 2 bearings...... Can we have another big DAaaaaaaaaa...........

I will stop there.... I know that there are MORE......

Quantity... Quanity..... I post tons of posts to increase my chances of posting the correct answer once in a while.....

Even the "Chief" can be WRONG..... As in Navy Chief.....

AL

[Jeff_Birt]

Being wrong a lot, and realizing it is a sign of always learning something new. Heck I'm wrong several times every day. Some of the greatest discoveries in history are the result of somebody being 'wrong' about one thing and then realizing that they discovered something else. Columbus set out to find India and was dead wrong when he landed in the 'new world', etc, etc, etc....

[al2888dj]

are these right or wrong haven,t used these yet
Flat Socket Cap Screw - Nylon Patch
10-32 x 3/4"
Drive Hex Drive Size 1/8"
Black Oxide Finish
Material Alloy Steel Specification ASTM F835 thank alex

[bergerud]

I pronounce this thread dead. May it rest in peace!

[jaroot]

Wouldn't work in mine. Mine are metric. 5mm I think. Just take whats left from old one to the big box and match them up.Don't know about the Nylon Patch. I just didn't clean the thread locker off from the old screws and they stay in just fine.

There's a mile stone, this marks the 300th time that I've had something of dubious worth to say. <-insert smiley here

[ktjwilliams]

I was very interested in this ER11 conversion... Some of us don't have money to throw around at Rock or Tight chucks... I seen these ER11's on EBAY for for less then 20 bucks and imperial sets of collets for 30-40 bucks.. At this time I need to get rid of the QC, it was fine until recently, now one problem after another, so it has to go.. This concept of the conversion had my interest as a reasonable cost idea with the benifits of more flexibility then any other chuck.. I think those other chucks are just to much money for what they are.. I'd rather sell 10 signs for $ 20 then 1 for $ 200... as long as I can cover the cost of my hobbies and keep my hands busy doin what I enjoy,,,, I'm happy.. I see statements bout using parts from China,, Last I checked these machines are made in China !!! Please get this thread back on track and give us the blow by blow of the conversion.... I rely heavily on this forum for help and ideas,,, software is NOT my forte,, especially these editing ones, so I came here and got plenty of help, and look foward to the day when I can assist... So GET BACK ON TRACK ...

[bergerud]

I plan to make another ER11 spindle in a few weeks. I am waiting for parts to come from China. I plan to post a "blow by blow" then.

[ktjwilliams]

Should I start ordering my parts ???? Ya know UR gonna have to be guide on this.. I've use a wood lathe many many times but a metal lathe never, how ever I do have access to one, a small one but were talking small parts here... I can only hope that the guy who has the lathe knows more bout it then I do... LOL ..

[bergerud]

Go for it. I think an ER11 spindle with a 12mm shank is best. You can buy a bearing to fit (6201) and that way you only have to turn the end for the small bearing. I think this is the most accurate way to make the modification. You get to keep the precision ground 12mm shank at the bottom bearing. Also, you could get ready and make a spindle puller. Before you go for it, however, you should talk to your friend. Show him the posts and get him committed!

[bergerud]

I just found ER11 collet chucks with a 10mm shank. I have ordered two. I think these will be easier to acuratly adapt to the Carvewright. The 12mm shanks require turning the end of the harded, ground shank to 10mm. The 10mm shank will require only turning a slot for the clip and a spacer for the lower bearing. I will post my final solution when I find it!

http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-673/ER11-SHANK-10MM-100MM/Detail

[Digitalwoodshop]

That is some GREAT News..... More within the means of what I have to work with...

THANKS,

AL

[Jeff_Birt]

Bergerud, one gotcha to watch out for is how collet chucks and tooling shanks are specd out. It is very common to see the shank size specified as 'N +0.0 -n.nnn', in other words the shank will never be over size but may be slightly undersize. Typically this is not a big deal on a tool if it is mounted in a collet but it may be a huge problem when you need a pressed on bearing to stay in place. In my experiance it can be hard to get reliable specs like this from some manufacturers.

[bergerud]

The two I have tested so far have been exact to the digits of my digital calipers and fit snugly into the same size bearings. Actually, I was impressed. Small sample size though, you may be right.

[ktjwilliams]

So hows the progress comin with the 10mm idea.. I need to do something soon, these QC's R for the birds... It just broke my cutting bit today and I was only take 1/16th cuts at a time... There goes another $ 40....

[Digitalwoodshop]

Broken cutting bits are usually related to X Tracking, not using tape for a rack and pinion to the brass roller OR the board popping out from under 1 roller and snapping the bit....

Tell us more details.... What did YOU do to snap the bit.... Sorry... It is usually Pilot Error..... Board not being held by 2 rollers at all times.... Brass Roller loosing contact.... Tape helps.... I am getting ready to cut some tags now with a 1/16 end mill.... The same one I have been using for over a year... It is all in how you setup your project..... $40.00 will buy a whole bunch of 4 inch long pieces of wood to stay under the rollers.


AL

[bergerud]

I am tring to come up with a way to use the ER11 chuck without having to use a lathe. I think the 10mm with a few tricks might work. I am worried, however, that it might be too" Mickey Mouse".

I was talking to a guy who sells the chucks and he may be able to have the chucks made to fit. He needs to make at least 50 though. I am waiting for a reply from him on the details. If he can make the spindles to exactly copy the old Carvewright spindle (square hole and all), I was planning to poll the forum as to how many would want it. Maybe this is also a long shot.

As for the 10mm shaft, my thoughs are: One has to have a spacer for the bottom bearing (either for the inside or the outside since there is no bearing fitting both) and one has to drill and tap the end for a bolt. The bolt would have have a 4mm hole drilled though it and filed square. The bolt would be threaded in with Loctie and tighen up against the top bearing. I will try this when the 10mm arrives.

I hope to offer two solutions: lathe and no lathe. Lathe first. It could be a couple of weeks for no lathe.

(I would like to know some stats: How many QC's are out there. How many people bought the Rock? How many people upgraded to the Carve Tight?)

Say tuned. I will report when I learn something.

[lynnfrwd]

I truly want you guys to realize and appreciate how unconventionally lenient we are on this forum. Sometimes when I read things like "why should I buy from LHR?" I just want to scream "so we are still here next year!!".

[gregsolano]

I truly want you guys to realize and appreciate how unconventionally lenient we are on this forum. Sometimes when I read things like "why should I buy from LHR?" I just want to scream "so we are still here next year!!".

While I understand your frustration, If I owned LHR I would take all these comments as constructive criticism and get better from this. I believe things like the Carvetight system came from just these types of comments. I hope LHR looks at their high shipping costs and other criticisms and gets better. I look forward to buying the next generation new and improved carvewright and I show mine off to all my friends and neighbors but I also give them tips and tricks to save money and time and sometimes that means not buying some items from LHR.

[lawrence]

Post removed by author -- will replace next week with original --

Have a great Easter Weekend everyone, lets all continue this discussion next week and just relax with our families this weekend

V/r
Lawrence

Below is the original as I posted on Friday

While I understand your frustration, If I owned LHR I would take all these comments as constructive criticism and get better from this. I believe things like the Carvetight system came from just these types of comments. I hope LHR looks at their high shipping costs and other criticisms and gets better. I look forward to buying the next generation new and improved carvewright and I show mine off to all my friends and neighbors but I also give them tips and tricks to save money and time and sometimes that means not buying some items from LHR.



+1 -



If I can get a part for the same price (and those other companies have markups too) from somewhere else then I'm going to go with LHR every time... if I can get the part for 'close' to the same price, then I'll still go with LHR because I want to help keep the lights on. However, when a 100% carbide bit is 1/2 (or less) of the price elsewhere--it seems that LHR is making a significantly larger markup on bits than most companies out there. Whether it's the high cost of shipping, paying for technical service, or the markup on bits--these business practices do not seem like the kind that endear companies and create a mob of loyal customers that scream from the rooftops about how great their product is. I truly want to be the kind of customer that does this about your company. I rave about your machine and software constantly. I hope to someday be able to do so about your company--truly I do.



There is obviously more going on than meets the eye and I sure hope things are going ok at the company through these tough economic times. I can only suggest that perhaps it would be better in the long run to contine to fix the reputation that LHR had in the past (the company reputation for customer service has gotten much better from what I can tell and the word of that has started to trickle into the other forums) and sell more new machines to new customers rather than using the business model of trying to get more money out of existing customers. We don't mind paying for things (I just bought 2 pieces of 12x18 corian from LHR last week) but we hate feeling like fools and paying way too much for items that can be bought elsewhere for significantly less.



With great respect,

Lawrence

[gregsolano]

A perfect example of high shipping is the new 3/16 carving bit. The first option given on shipping is $20 for UPS. If someone pays attention they can choose regular mail for $12. All this to buy a small bit that costs only $39 to begin with. This item can be shipped in a small flat rate priority mail box and the box is free from the post office (they will give you hundreds of free boxes!) and the actual shipping cost is $4.95. so lets say you still want to make a profit on the shipping to help cover employee costs to pack and ship etc, (handling charges). You could mark up the shipping a whopping 25% and still ship the bit for $6.25, this gives you a 25% markup and still cuts the shipping cost on small items down almost 50%. Most parts will fit in a flat rate small, med or large priority shipping box and since the boxes are free you will save some money and more importantly you will save customers money. I have ordered several carvetight bits from amazon and they don't even box them, they send them in a cheap plastic bag. I got overnight shipping from amazon when I broke my bit for only $3, granted I had to sign up for some club they offered for 30 days free and then I just canceled the membership after I got my bit overnight for $3! I am not ragging on you lynn I actually hope you pass this on to your shipping managers and others to consider. I would rather go straight to the shopping area at LHR and not spend 20 minutes to an hour scouring the internet to save money if I didn't feel that besides paying a little more for the item, I am overpaying for shipping as well. All that aside, I love the CW and think you have a great product and I recommend it to everyone I know.

[lynnfrwd]

I am not in the shipping department, so I am hoping that I am making correct statements.

UPS 3rd day as first option was brought up again yesterday and will be addressed in the managers meeting next week. It evidently has something to do with the store software, but I hope we can find a way to resolve it.

Our regular shipping (currently $12) is actually UPS Regular Ground or USPS. It is up to the shipping department to decide which method it is shipped and I am not sure what criteria they use to make that decision. I believe most of the time they use the UPS Regular Ground, which means it is given a tracking number. This is peace of mind for the customer and insurance for us. Sometimes the old saying "the few ruin it for the many" is true and it unfortunately is here. I don't know if the USPS actually looses that much mail or not, but we re-send less parts through UPS when the package is tracked. We were trying one of USPS methods a while back (can't remember what it was called) and found that it could take several weeks to get delivered which didn't make any of our customers happy and we sent replacement parts, just to have the first delivered a day or two after we resent the item. So that didn't work and we stopped sending that way.

USPS Priority Flat Rate:
It is not tracked and goes up significantly when you move to the medium sized box almost $11, but for bits that can fit, it would be a savings, but again not tracked and not insured.

Well, I have found there are all kinds of different rates on USPS website, more info than I want to know and try to decipher on my day off (by the way, we are closed today for Good Friday). As I understand it from yesterday, shipping costs are on the agenda for next weeks meeting.

[gregsolano]

One last comment on this issue. USPS priority is tracked and works well. Insurance costs extra but very little. About the only advantage UPS has is the insurance that is included up to $250 I believe. But It is a pain to file a claim and if you file a few claims they start inspecting your packages and treating you different. I ship hundreds of items USPS flat rate priority and have not had a single lost or late item, always delivered in three days. I have had a couple of damaged items and I ate the cost of those but two out of a hundred is not bad.

[ktjwilliams]

Bergerud,,,, Hope UR making progress,,, The Carvetight was on sale,,, So I priced it out with the bare minimum of things needed to be able to use the Carvetight... The Carvetight was $ 139.00,, with the bare minimum ie: carver and cutter bit, probe adapter, 1/4" adapter..... Totals $ 293.88.... Geezzzzz !!! I would rather spend the money on the DXF software and then the STL.... LOL !!!!

[bergerud]

I am working on it. There is no way around the lathe. I have now over three pages of instructions I am working on. I believe the best solution is going to be with the 5/8 shank ER11 collet chuck from Shars.com for $42.50. I have ordered one and was going to wait until I got it to release my instructions. I have to make sure it is what I think it is. If you want, I can send you my work in progress so you can better decide. I will try to PM it to you.

[ktjwilliams]

Or My E-Mail is KTJ.WILLIAMS@VERIZON.NET

As much as I would like to help LHR keep the lights on, I really can't C spending all that money on a CHUCK.... By the time UR finished with the machine and all the accesories, softwares and headaches,,,, U could have picked-up a regular CNC machine...

[henry1]

I am not in the shipping department, so I am hoping that I am making correct statements.

UPS 3rd day as first option was brought up again yesterday and will be addressed in the managers meeting next week. It evidently has something to do with the store software, but I hope we can find a way to resolve it.

Our regular shipping (currently $12) is actually UPS Regular Ground or USPS. It is up to the shipping department to decide which method it is shipped and I am not sure what criteria they use to make that decision. I believe most of the time they use the UPS Regular Ground, which means it is given a tracking number. This is peace of mind for the customer and insurance for us. Sometimes the old saying "the few ruin it for the many" is true and it unfortunately is here. I don't know if the USPS actually looses that much mail or not, but we re-send less parts through UPS when the package is tracked. We were trying one of USPS methods a while back (can't remember what it was called) and found that it could take several weeks to get delivered which didn't make any of our customers happy and we sent replacement parts, just to have the first delivered a day or two after we resent the item. So that didn't work and we stopped sending that way.

USPS Priority Flat Rate:
It is not tracked and goes up significantly when you move to the medium sized box almost $11, but for bits that can fit, it would be a savings, but again not tracked and not insured.

Well, I have found there are all kinds of different rates on USPS website, more info than I want to know and try to decipher on my day off (by the way, we are closed today for Good Friday). As I understand it from yesterday, shipping costs are on the agenda for next weeks meeting.
Your talking about a tracking # ,,the USPS also priorty mail will give a tracking # I deal with them always,, except when a bigger package I will go UPS ,,and USPS normaly I get it in 3 days
Henry

[Pratyeka]

I am working on it. There is no way around the lathe. I have now over three pages of instructions I am working on. I believe the best solution is going to be with the 5/8 shank ER11 collet chuck from Shars.com for $42.50. I have ordered one and was going to wait until I got it to release my instructions. I have to make sure it is what I think it is. If you want, I can send you my work in progress so you can better decide. I will try to PM it to you.

Just in case you might be interested by this, which happened some time ago before there were any alternatives to the old QC.
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?10879-Replacing-the-CW-QC-chuck-with-RC-Eliminator-Chuck
I'm still running with this modification.

Your idea is very clever. I might just go for it myself when comes time to replace the bearings in mine.

[Frederick_P]

I truly want you guys to realize and appreciate how unconventionally lenient we are on this forum. Sometimes when I read things like "why should I buy from LHR?" I just want to scream "so we are still here next year!!".

Lynn, you know I am a fan and I truly do want LHR to succeed. But at the risk of beating a dead horse, how is the Canadian distribution thing coming along? There are thousands of potential buyers here that are eager to purchase your product but can't. I am pretty sure they would keep the lights on for a long time!

[lynnfrwd]

We still do not have a Canadian distributor. I'm not privy to or aware of any talks going on right now.

The roadblock is shipping of the machines. Parts are not an issue. We can do that.

[bergerud]

I remember the eliminator chuck and your old post Pratyeka. I modified an air grinder chuck and used that for 300 hours. The collets did not fit all sizes and were crude.

There is some interesting history here I think. LHR invents a wonderful machine but wants to use their previous QC invention (invented for routers) on the machine. The idea of quick change is good but the QC turns out to be a disaster. They are too slow to abandon it and users are left to fend for themselves. First there was the eliminator which was not adopted by many because it required machining. It appears to me that the Rock chuck was then a copy of the eliminator. The success of the Rock chuck finally forced LHR to abandon the QC. Instead, however, of going back to the drawing board, they copied the Rock! (I was shocked) I do not know how much of a shake up the ER spindle will cause, probably not much because, as with the eliminator, machine work is required.

If someone takes on the "rjustice" roll of producing ER spindles, maybe the Carvewright D will have an ER type system with a lock button on the truck. Then, I think, the story might end.

[bergerud]

I live in Canada. I bought the first machine on Vancouver Island through House of Tools. I introduced them to it and they brought them in form the east. They later abandoned Canada in the economic hard times and I was left to fend for myself. LHR would not ship to Canada in the beginning (or even respect warranty if I remember). I had to make my own parts! Busy Bee carried Carvewright for awhile but then they quit. KMS Tools was thinking of taking over but I guess they decided not to. Something must be scaring these distributors. I do not know how big the Canadian market could be, but there are many woodworkers up here who know nothing of the machine.

[Frederick_P]

We still do not have a Canadian distributor. I'm not privy to or aware of any talks going on right now.

The roadblock is shipping of the machines. Parts are not an issue. We can do that.

Why not use a redistribution center? You truck up a bunch of units and the Canadian customers get them delivered by ordering from you. One center in the east, one in the west and if it works, one in the middle. Not sure why it's a problem. I could get a variety of other heavy pieces shipped up here with no issue.

[lynnfrwd]

I don't know.

[Pratyeka]

There was a mention about the chuck bearings being ceramic bearings... Could we have a confirmation on that? Because a quick search reveals that those are not cheap ($50 and up). I seriously doubt LHR would put those in the Z truck, not that I imply they use cheap bearings, just that ceramic bearings are very costly compared to regular steel bearings.

[bergerud]

I do not believe LHR ever used ceramic bearings. No one has said they did. To the best of my knowledge, the only thing special is the lower non contact bearing (6002VV). The top bearing is common (6000DU). That is what my B machine spindle had. These bearings seem to do alright even though they have poor cooling due to the tolerance rings which insulate them from the truck casing. We need advice here from a CNC spindle expert as to whether there would be any advantage to ceramic bearings in the case of the Carvewright. My guess would be that there is no need for these expensive bearings.

[DocWheeler]

I do not believe LHR ever used ceramic bearings. No one has said they did.
Don't know for sure, but it has been stated that they are ceramic here (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?12994-Z-Truck-Heat&highlight=ceramic+bearings).

[bergerud]

You are right, in that post, Jeff said he remembered an LHR engineer saying the bearings balls were ceramic.

"When the subject of replacing the bearings came up I recalled a conversation I had with one of the engineers at CarveWright about the bearings and he mentioned that they used ceramic balls due to the high speeds."

Mine were not, that is all I know for sure. Standard NSK 6002VV and the totally common NSK 6000DU.

I asked the question previously and was hoping someone at LHR would tell us.

[Pratyeka]

Right, most steel bearings of that size are rated to 24,000 rpm, that I have seen. they are also deep grooved, and are good for radial as well as axial loads.

One idea I had was to design a hole Z truck from scratch, allowing total liberty for choosing a spindle and bearings.

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Dan,,, Thx for sending me that item,, Just ordered new bearings 6000ZZ and 6200ZZ.. I also ordered the collets from SHARS.com... Ordered couple extra bearings so I can leave on spindles for easy swap out,,, I HOPE... LOL... Now if I can only find a 3/16th carbide bit... Been searchin round,, found one guy selling 3/16 bits for metal and when I spoke with him, he told me that the bit worked well in wood CNC's... So I may try it... The bit is tapered and the flutes look like it could work.. Nothin ventured nothin gained...

[bergerud]

That big bearing should be 6002 not 6200. I hope that was not my mistake. The 6200 has an inside of 12mm and I used that for the 12mm ER11 shank I now have on my machine. The spindle I sent you is turned to match the Carvewright bearing of inside 15mm, the 6002. Better check that.

[ktjwilliams]

OK Dan just ordered 5 of the 6002ZZ.... @ $ 1.60 I'm not gonna check to see whose fault is was... Well Curiousity got the best of me... It's UR fault,, All UR fault.. LOL... @ $ 1.60 ea,,, don't think I'm gonna lose any sleep.. Maybe I'll get a 12mm spindle ....

[bergerud]

Sorry about that. Have you made a wrench for the ER11M nut yet? We are going to want pictures!

[ktjwilliams]

Didn't get a chance yet to make the wrench,,, had to finish my sprinkler system for my lawn and garden ( been workin on that for last 2 dayzzz) Finished Yesterday ... Today it's raining so it would be a good day to start that and see what I come up with... I will put a brief video of the spindle at work on U tube once I get all the parts... My first order of bearings will be delivered tomorrow, the bearings I ordered last nite don't have a tracking number yet... Haven't gotten anything from SHARS yet, not even a trackin number...

[ktjwilliams]

Alrighty !! I put one of Dan's spindles in my machine and gave it a whirl.... Works great,,, Quite and smooth... Simple to use... very inexspensive ,, Check it out see it at work... Thx Dan.... The collets from SHARS are great hold the carbide with the flats,, No problems...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZLHa57fybcc?hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZLHa57fybcc?hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[ktjwilliams]

Heres another video of Dan's spindle !!!

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[bergerud]

Very cool to see something I made work for someone else. I have made three of them now. Two from cheap China ($15) chucks of which yours is one and one from a more expensive Maritool ($58 )8) chuck. (See photo 1 before conversion) The Maritool chuck was really hardened and very hard to turn (American made!) Also, it had a 2" shank which makes it a little too short like the CT. Very nice though. (See photo 2 installed) I have the most hope for one from Shars ($42.50) but it has not arrived yet. (Note the nice 3/16" ballnose with 1" LOC I bought off of eBay for $4.)

[ktjwilliams]

Well Dan..... Now that I broke the ice,,, I think I'll have to try 1 or 2 more... I would like to be able to use a 1/2 bit... Most of my router bits are 1/2 shanks... Making furniture and cabinets,, I had to use 1/2 because of the width and depth of some of the cuts,, so it became a habit to buy 1/2 shank bits...

[gumbo]

Not to sound to childish but "I want one". The thing is I don't know metal working or even have the access to the tools. So I will pose the million dollar question will someone make one for me? Just let me know what it will cost

Thanks Mike

[ktjwilliams]

Gumbo,,, Dan was talking to a shop that may make these available.. I don't know the out come of the talks... I'm sure there would have to be a minimum commitment.. I haven't made any yet, but will order a couple of cheap er11's off ebay ( $ 8 - $ 15 ).. I have to find out what ER# would let me use 1/2" bits and try one of them.. My buddy across the stream has a metal lathe... So we'll see how it goes.... I ordered my bearings from the big bearing store... $ 1.60 ea... Collets from SHARS.. 1/8 3/16 1/4" ... $ 25 for the 3.. Dan has all the specs in this thread..

[ktjwilliams]

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZLHa57fybcc?hl=en&fs=1 (http://www.youtube.com/v/ZLHa57fybcc?hl=en&fs=1)" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Dan's er11 conversion in action...

[bergerud]

I was talking to Maritool and he said he would make spindles to fit the Carvewright for $138 each if I ordered 12. Well I was hoping he would make them and sell them from his website. I have already put a few hundred dollars into experimenting with these ER spindles. I have also talked with the creator of the Rock, Ron Justice (rjustice) and he would be interested in making ER spindles if there was enough interest. I think he is the best bet. I planned one more post on the ER spindle idea after I make one more spindle and add a locking button to my truck. At that time, I am going to direct interested people to Ron. (rj@cw-parts.com)

The ER20 is what you need if you want to hold 1/2 inch bits. It is a big chuck. The nut is 1 3/16 inches, the collets are 1 1/4 inches long. Its a flywheel. (The mini nut version might not be so bad.) I would not do it. Buy some 1/4 shank router bits, it will be easier in your machine. See the pictures which compare the ER11 to the behemoth ER20.

[ktjwilliams]

My ER11 Spindle conversion with scanning probe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXwVY4jzAC8 The conversion was done by Dan...

[ktjwilliams]

Received my 3/16 carbide carving bit today... With shipping it cost $ 6.45 ... See it in action... Does a really nice job... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DLxp9Is3fs

[henry1]

can't open it ,its saying a duplicate video

[ktjwilliams]

Sorry about that,,, I copied the link wrong .... Here's the right one.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBpscfD1wGw

[bergerud]

Has anybody made an ER spindle? I spent time and money researching the ER spindle idea long after I had made my own. I went to the effort of trying to explain how I did it. (In another thread "ER11 spindle conversion - details") It is such a good thing, I do not understand. Is anybody planning to make one?

[ktjwilliams]

I luv mine !!! I was just given a metal lathe and some cutters for it,,, Now I am gonna order a couple of those chinese ER11 And a ER20 ... Want one big one for 1/2 bits... Dan, This is really good, I made a jig out of some pvc pipe and a cap so that all bits are at the same depth.. Couldn't slide this jig over anything other then the ER11.. Just another benifit.. I don't need to change bits during the initial homing since all the bits are set the same... Not to mention how smooth everything works and how quiet it is due to its light weight and small size... Great creation Dan,, The flexibility,, and those ER's from china R only $ 10 - 15 ... and American made collets (won't trust a china collet) R only $ 8 ea.... Ya only need 3,, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4... Folks need to get with it on this...

[bergerud]

Kevin you will appreciate this. A button. So nice not to need that second wrench on the flat above the nut.

[liquidguitars]

LG likes this.

[kool69sporty]

Berger, I'm very enthralled with this conversion. I've swallowed every detail of your detail instructions and hope you will offer some design details on the "button" as i think this a real topper to a fine job well done. Appreciate your efforts and willingness to help us all out. Joe

[Dan-Woodman]

Won't that drilled spot on the spindle throw off the balance, unless it's drilled all the way through and perfectly centered?
later Daniel

[bergerud]

There are three holes.

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Dan,,, How U been ?? I finally ordered an ER20,,, A lot of my favorite bits are 1/2 inch and I just can't find replacements for em in 1/4 inch.... My neighbor GAVE me a metal lathe.. Been practicing cutting various types of metal, very interesting trying to use this thing, lot different then my wood lathe,LOL.. But I have now figured out some of the quirks with this machine,,, Like having to center the cutting tool,, it scared the hell out of me the first time the work piece jump up on top of the cutter tool cause the tool wasn't centered.. lol... I mastered centering the work piece in the 4 jaw chuck, with a small piece of wood with a bearing mounted to it and a dial indicator.. Well I think I'm getting close to being ready to try cutting the ER20.. I bought from China cause as we all know they R not as hard as USA stuff.. When I get use to this thing, I'll order a couple of USA spindles ER11 and ER20... any advise ?? Oh,,I mounted a small paint brush to the machine, I keep it oiled and resting on the work piece while cutting.. works good keeping things lubed...

[bergerud]

I just got a US ER16M to try from Maritool. The ER16 goes up to 3/8. I only need up to 1/4 but I think the bigger collets hold the 1/4 shanks more accurately. The 1/4 collets on the ER11 are thin being on the upper limit of the capacity and so distort when tightened. Splitting hairs?

I hope you ordered the ER20M type chuck. The ER20A type has a big nut. Do not even try to turn the chuck by holding it in a lathe chuck. You may, after awhile, get the taper centered in the 4 jaw, but, you will not be able to get the axis of the collet taper and the axis of the lathe parallel. (We are working with 10 thousandths here) Use the stub method I described in the thread " ER Spindle Conversion - details" which has moved down a ways in the threads.

Another thing about the ER20 is that a lock pin might not be a good idea. The extra torque required to tighten it should probably should not be transferred to the carriage bearings.

Good luck, you may ruin the first one in the learning process. Anyway, I am glad someone is giving it a go. Funny that the two of us that have ER chucks seem to be the only ones excited about ER chucks.

There are a lot of people who read the posts but do not post themselves. If any of you out there have converted an ER chuck to the Carvewright, we would like to hear about it.

[gregsolano]

I like the idea and would purchase one if someone was selling it but I do not have a metal lathe and between buying a lathe and learning how to use it for just this one project it would not make sense. I do have the CT chuck and I am happy with it. If the person you talked to decides to start making and selling them then I would be interested in buying one.

[ktjwilliams]

Well Dan,, I ordered the "A" because I found one that had a thin shaft to begin with so it won't require a hole lot of cutting down... Guess I'll have to go find that old post on the conversion.. I don't fully understand what the heck UR talkin bout with stub method... I was just planning on using the 4 jaw chuck and the tail stock for support.. In any case,,, The "A" has to be better the QC LOL !!

[bergerud]

My first mistake was thinking that a precision ground China chuck is straight! The chucks from China are garbage as they stand. Both bearing journals have to be turned to make the thing straight. The stub method is as follows. You put an old bolt shank in your lathe chuck and turn it down to the size if a bit shank. This gives you a near prefect way to mount the collet chuck on the lathe. Since the bolt was just turned, it is as straight and true as your lathe can be. Now you attach the collet chuck to the stub as if it was a bit. You will be shocked at how the shank of the collet chuck wobbles. (The $50 US ones are a lot better.) But no matter since you are going to make it straight.... Go back and read that old post so you do not repeat my mistakes.

[Jeff_Birt]

The chucks from China are garbage as they stand.

There is a lot of high-quality stuff made in China but unless you are dealing with a known supplier most of what you get is poor quality. I submit for evidence: http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html (in good humor). Once you turn the shank down the alignment between the taper and shank will be shot, and we won't even get into how accurately the taper was to begin with. Bergerud is correct, the money spent on a US make collet chuck is money well spent.



The 1/4 collets on the ER11 are thin being on the upper limit of the capacity and so distort when tightened. Splitting hairs?

Actually this is a really good point to bring up. Part of the problem could be the collets, cheaper collets are softer and will 'smush' (technical term). A problem many folks have with ER collets in general if over tightening them. If you over tighten the closing nut you will distort the nut and then every collet you use with that nut will be ruined eventually. This is the #1 killer of ER collets.

TIP: You want really short wrenches, for the mills I sell that use ER16 collets I supply them with two 6" long stamped steel wrenches (like bicycle wrenches). They are short enough that it is hard to get enough leverage on them to over-tighten the nut. Tighter is not better in this case, get yourself some short wrenches.

I cut a pair of the above wrenches out of 1/8" 6061 aluminum more than a year ago as a test. I wanted to see how much wear/rounding would occur on the wrenches with normal use (steel nut/aluminum wrench). They are still in great shape which shows how much torque really needs to be applied.

[bergerud]

We are talking about the $15 collet extension chucks on eBay. They seem to have a concentricity problem (axis of taper and of axis shank not parallel). I was told by a supplier " The shank is ground centreless and the taper is ground spinning the chuck held by the shank so it is nearly impossible not to make it concentric". Well, I guess the machine chuck which holds the collet chuck shank is not so true!

The beauty of this conversion process is that these problems can get fixed if you turn both bearing journals. The taper is the "face side" that you start with. Using a high quality collet, you hold the cheap collet chuck by the bit and turn it to be concentric. If done carefully, the cheap collet chuck can become as accurate as the high quality ones.

Somewhere, I saw collet nuts which had a bearing in them. The idea was that the bearing eliminated the torque on the collet due to friction when tightening. I suppose one would like an even shorter wrench for these.

[ktjwilliams]

Dan I read the details last nite and got the idea an understanding of Y to do it that way, Great idea,, At present I don't want to go buying $ 60 & $ 70 USA spindles yet.. I think the ones from China will cut much easier then the USA ones cause I don't believe they will be as hard.. Once I cut a couple and get it right then I will invest in a USA made one.. However the collets I use ARE NOT from china, Those ARE STRICTLY USA made.. I would not trust a china collet.. As far as tighting, I cannot twist or move the bit just by finger tighting.. So after finger tight I put the wrench on and give maybe a half turn.. No problems... At first I thought the bit would push in or come flyin out but, neither happened and it works well with that little tightening...

Kevin

[Dan-Woodman]

How will you put the square hole in the end to accept the flex shaft? I think they make square keyway cutters for that,but just wondering how you guys would deal with it.
later Daniel

[bergerud]

A square 1/8 inch file and about an hour. I made a file handle that slides in the collet to keep it sort of straight. (I have a thread on the details of converting an ER spindle.)

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Dan,,, Wuts U been upto ??? Still waiting for my China Spindle.... Got the collets already from SHARS,,, Just waitin and waitin and waitin for that spindle... Me, I just finished a sign for a Cardiolist group.... Today I got an order for a similar sign for a Pulmonary Group... Now where's my SPINDLE ???

[bergerud]

I am still working on the new dust collector which uses the cut motor fan. Testing today. (I have a new ER16M spindle from Maritool yet to turn after I finish the dust collector.) Good luck with the huge ER20 when it comes. I hope to see a picture of that on the machine.

[ktjwilliams]

Hey Dan,,, Got my ER20... I took my time cutting it, my lathe is a 1942 model atlas,, so it doesn't have any measuring marks, all by eye and Micrometer, so it took 2 dayz, that sucker was big... top through whole was big so I after cutting, I threaded it, screwed in a bolt then cut and drilled through it.. Been filing the square hole for 2 dayzzz now,, starts movin along once UR able to work the hole file in the opening.. Almost there, maybe a test run tomorrow if I don't go golfing,, suppose to rain so we'll see... well anyway fingers crossed, seemed to be running true when I put a dial indicator on to check,, but the proof will be in the puddin >>>>!!!!

Kevin

[CarverJerry]

Hey you guys, when you get your new spindle up and running how about posting some pictures.

[bergerud]

Sounds good Kevin. It only takes me about an hour to file the square hole. I guess I have just the right file. I may start on my ER16M spindle today. The Maritool spindle
( http://www.maritool.com/p951/ER16-5/8-2.0M-STRAIGHT-SHANK-COLLET-CHUCK/product_info.html) is a thing of beauty. Either the Maritool ER11 I am currently using or the ER16M will be my final answer. These Maritool spindles have what is called a backup screw which is intended to stop the bit from creeping up into the spindle under heavy load conditions (milling metal). I have found this screw is very convenient as a stop for mult-bit carves. After I test the ER16M, I will post my "conclusions" as to what I think is the best spindle.

(Maritool quoted me a price of $138 each for custom made ER spindles for the Carvewright if I bought at least 12 of them.)

[ktjwilliams]

Jerry we have some videos up already... heres a link... Note the small size of the spindle.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLHa57fybcc&feature=related

[bergerud]

I think I like the ER16M spindle because it just seems like the right size and it fits so well with my dust cap. (The M is for mini nut. The ER16A types have big ugly hex nuts.) The ER16 collets go up to 3/8" and so it is more useful for experimenting with bits. The collets are longer and I think they hold the bits more accurately. This is a cheap Chinese test case ($15 on eBay). I will now adapt my expensive Maritool ER16M.

Check out the youtube video. It is also a dust cap test. Note that the carve follows the grain (sideways board). This creates large curly chips like a planer. I thought they would plug up the small out pipe but it sucked them all up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF7rJhckOwE

[ktjwilliams]

OK gave the ER20 a run today !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gru1tf3rvJk

[bergerud]

Nice. It does not look as big as I thought it would. We need a close up of that mother holding a 1/2 inch shank bit!

[ktjwilliams]

That is a 1/2 shank bit.. 5/8 90V.... It's not a hex nut on there, even though I didn't order the M, it had an M type nut.... I bought it based on the image and the size of the spindle shank..... UR system looks pretty good there !! Lock button, vac cap... NICE !!!

[mister_zed]

Bumping into an old thread again...

Could the lathe be skipped altogether?
If you start with the C10 ER11 piece (chuck diameter 10mm), cut to proper length and then use the following bearings:
1. top = size 6000
2. bottom = size 6002/10 instead of 6002. The 6002/10 is also known as LR200. Dimensions are 10x32x9.

That could simplify the construction process a little...

[bergerud]

I do not see any reason why that would not work. You still have the problem of making the square flex hole and the clip ring slot.

[tackytim]

Are those Er collets blanks that can be machined to whatever is necessary? If so, that's pretty nifty. I made my own spindle that accepts standard porter cable router collets. Love it. Perfectly balanced and I have plenty of wrenches, lol

[bergerud]

Yes, you can buy these ER extensions with different shank sizes which you can turned. They are usually ,however, hollow and have to be plugged to make the square flex hole in the end.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Are those Er collets blanks that can be machined to whatever is necessary? If so, that's pretty nifty. I made my own spindle that accepts standard porter cable router collets. Love it. Perfectly balanced and I have plenty of wrenches, lol

Tim.... Thank You for Sharing This little DETAIL..... I am pretty excited to hear about this.

​BREAKING NEWS

This NEW Spindle will be the same as the CT as it is one single shaft but had a standard PORTER CABLE ROUTER CHUCK in EITHER 1/2 OR 1/4...

INSTALL WHAT YOU NEED. Either a 1/2 inch or a 1/4 inch...

This SINGLE SHAFT can be INSERTED into a OLD QC Truck making it similar to the CT BUT you can put a Porter Cable 1/2 or 1/4 inch chuck on it. And will use 2 wrenches to tighten. I look forward to seeing them in PRODUCTION....

Another INNOVATIVE Project from TIM.

Thanks TIM. !!!!!

[mister_zed]

I do not see any reason why that would not work. You still have the problem of making the square flex hole and the clip ring slot.

Yes, sorry... forgot that one. Realized my mistake when I started disassembling the Z-truck. And - lucky me - I managed to do the job without any fancy tools, even without any excess force. Yes, I used a hammer to do some "tapping", but it was while holding the truck in the other hand as only support, which means that my hand sort of "cushioned away" most of the impact.

Btw, how sure are you that those ER-rods are hollow? I studied the images on Ebay and failed to see it. What would you plug them with? Some kind of epoxy steel?

[bergerud]

I am pretty sure they are all hollow. I brazed plugs in the ends. I did not care about the effect of heat because I later turned the shanks down.

[mister_zed]

I am pretty sure they are all hollow. I brazed plugs in the ends. I did not care about the effect of heat because I later turned the shanks down.

OK, "brazed" implies quite a lot of heat, which will require machining. How did you make the square opening?

[bergerud]

How did you make the square opening?

By hand with a small square file.

[mister_zed]

By hand with a small square file.
Ouch! Making it perfectly centered must be areal pain the a.., isn't it?

Anyway, I might give it a try now that I have disassmbled my second Z-truck. :-) Thanks for your advice!