Pattern CD

[dbfletcher]

All,

It sounds like collectivly we have come up with a viable solution that should put any of the ebay sellers out of business. However, I think there are still a bunch of issues that need to be worked out before going forward.

Off the top of my head...

1. Who owns the forum material. LHR or the original poster. It is not defined in the forum guidelines and I've seen forums go both ways on that.
2. Do we assume that anything currently in the sharing gallery already has approval to be include on a forum sponsered cd or do we need to try to get written permission for all the posters who have sumbitted something.
3. I would love to see LHR incoude this with all new purchases, but so far they have not commented at all on the thread.
4. I have no problem burning an sending these out at cost, but I dont want to say I will do it for free becuase if we get 400 responses than suddenly I have to pony up several hundred dollars in materials and postage.
5. I am also willing to post an ISO image of the CD on my website so that anyone with broadband can download the entire collection directly.
6. We would need to include a text file containing terms and conditions for usage and distribution. GNU style lisences I'm sure wont be acceptable to most of you so we'll need to fashion our own.

Let me know your thoughts.

[dougmsbbs]

By the numbers:

1 and 2: If the poster is determined to own the pattern, consider this notice that anything I have posted over the years may be included in the collection.

3: Not sure it's their place to do that, but no problems from me if they did.

4: You have to charge cost. Come on, not to is to invite abuse.

5: Let me know where to go to get it. Love to have it all here in one place!

6: Yes. We would have to include a text file explaining use. Since this started by a collection being sold on Ebay, I would assume we would state it could not be sold for profit in any way, but may be reproduced and given out for free or a small charge for expenses. But then, of course, some would argue just what is included in expenses...

[CarverJerry]

Doug, I think it's a great idea. I hope every one will agree with you on this and we can put these guys out of business on ebay. I want to say thanks for offering to do this for all of us here.

CarverJerry

[jaroot]

I guess I've missed out on the ebay discussion so I'm not sure exactly what is going on there. One guy appears to be selling patterns that he has "collected" over the years (that's probably a problem depending where he "collected" them from.) The other guy appears to be selling patterns that he has developed and/or licensed for the designer (that one shouldn't be a problem and more power to him.)

As for the numbers:

1., 2. Yeah if the stuff that I've posted is mine use it if you wish. I intended it to be used free of charge by the forum members and don't wish to have a for profit sale of them.
3. I'm a little hesitant to have LHR send this out. I kind a think they profit enough from our purchases and efforts, not sure if we need to help them any more but I'm really on the fence about that.
5. I would also be willing to provide some web space for an ISO image.
6. Some of the projects would probably need some directions to go with the patterns.

[eelamb]

Being gone for a weekend upon returning, there is a lot to read.

Doug and others, the CD is a great idea. Some cost will be involved, shipping and packaging is not free.
I also give my permission to have any of my shared patterns, or MPCs on the CD, and like others for use by anyone for their own carving, carvings for sale, but the pattern/MPC files can not be sold for profit even if the profit is just labor.

I also offer space on my web site for downloading the ISO. The more places this file is located the easier it will be to find.

The way I see it, the person on Ebay will continue doing what he/she is doing, and he/she will continue to have sales, some will never find the free ISO or CD (at cost), but will find it on eBay. Most of the GNU license will handle the guidelines.

[William Blankenship]

Doug,
I have to CarverPic. Anything I have posted in open forum is to be considered in the Public Domain and was shared without license or royalty request. I just happy if someone can use what I post. Feel free to include my stuff. I wouldn't mind grabbing a copy of the ISO. In Feb 2011 I'll actually have a 'puter that is capable of doing something with it......anyone want to join me in target practice? I have this computer that needs to be shot at least a few thousand times <grin>.

Bill....

[William Blankenship]

Jaroot,
You are probably right about directions to go with some of the patterns, at least some of the settings would help. That is a great idea.

Bill....

[Ike]

Doug and I discussed a way to have a thread for each pattern maker to import their patterns without conversation. Then maybe a computer whiz like Bud can set up a link so members can download one or all the patterns. Then come up with a way to help those with slow internet. But with Starbucks and public libraries high speed internet is available!

I bet some are thinking we do have a thread like that called," Pattern Sharing"!
Then I thought about maybe going through the vendor store, but that is not fair to the pattern makers who do sell patterns and have more expensive software to make patterns.

So on the flip side making a free CD may or will affect our members who sell their patterns just as much as the guy who took the free patterns and made them into a disc.

So maybe just boycotting this e-bay seller is all we can do? Sorry this just occurred to me. I make patterns for free because I don't think the patterns I make are worth selling! Plus I enjoy helping others as many do, including the members who sell their patterns!

If I had the money invested as others have in software or make better patterns I may consider selling them. But even selling the patterns say for a dollar most likely would not stop the pirates from making "their" collection into a CD! Just hurt our pattern vendors.

Maybe we should consider just keeping as it is?

Wow I am confused now!

Ike

[dbfletcher]

Doug and I discussed a way to have a thread for each pattern maker to import their patterns without conversation. Then maybe a computer whiz like Bud can set up a link so members can download one or all the patterns. Then come up with a way to help those with slow internet. But with Starbucks and public libraries high speed internet is available!

I bet some are thinking we do have a thread like that called," Pattern Sharing"!
Then I thought about maybe going through the vendor store, but that is not fair to the pattern makers who do sell patterns and have more expensive software to make patterns.

So on the flip side making a free CD may or will affect our members who sell their patterns just as much as the guy who took the free patterns and made them into a disc.

So maybe just boycotting this e-bay seller is all we can do? Sorry this just occurred to me. I make patterns for free because I don't think the patterns I make are worth selling! Plus I enjoy helping others as many do, including the members who sell their patterns!

If I had the money invested as others have in software or make better patterns I may consider selling them. But even selling the patterns say for a dollar most likely would not stop the pirates from making "their" collection into a CD! Just hurt our pattern vendors.

Maybe we should consider just keeping as it is?

Wow I am confused now!

Ike


I also considered that.... but to be honest there have been several times where I found and downloaded a pattern, from the gallery, but then discovered it wasnt exactly what I was looking for or the quality wasnt quite there either. So then off to the vendor sites to find the perfect pattern. In my mind, I think it coud increase sales for our pattern makers. We enable easy access to all machine owners and once they start to see the capabilities of thier machines, the more they will push thier limits and inevietably get to the point where they need the comercial patterns.

What do those of you who sell patterns think? Will helping to provide access to all the free patterns help or hurt you?

[AskBud]

If nothing else, this eBay seller has piqued a lot of conversation on our forum!

He/she may always have a limited number of takers. Any one of us could gather similar items, on our own, if we have/had the time and connect-ability. Those whom lack one or the other, may find the offer a comfortable alternative.

My lesson on "Searching" is meant to assist everyone in finding things more readily. It will work on any thread with attachments. However, it must be started on each thread as a separate process. I have suggested that LHR provide me/us with a universal "Attachment access", where all attachments would come up with one query. It would be a huge data base, but would save time and effort in the long run. Also, remember that the data base is dynamic. My draw now, may/will not be the same as a draw an hour later or before.

As you may know, attachment, naming conventions are up to the member and sometimes seem to have nothing to do with the item involved. We can all help in the future, by at least placing one or two key words that better identify/label the attachment.

LHR could assist by adding a column to the attachment listing, showing the Forum Member, and possibly another column pointing to the Original Post Address. Both would serve well should you/I need more information from the original poster. We know the first could be accomplished, as it is now available on each "Store" pattern listing.

Finally, any one of us, with the time and/or ability will probably assist those in need.
AskBud

[Ike]

Doug I agree, but wanted to throw that out there to consider all sides! Wow this guy from e-bay caused a lot of trouble! As members we can add or remove our post including patterns, so does it make it LHR property? Or is it we are allowed to post our patterns with the knowledge it becomes public for the use of everybody? I am leaning towards the later and without the ability to copyright our patterns what is stopping a person from copying a CD made by us and reselling it? We do all the work including making a nice file or CD and make it easy for them to sell! You know non members will not know the difference like the case with the e-bay seller.

Trust me I still like the ideal, but these questions and thoughts keep popping in my head.

Ike

[dbfletcher]

Doug I agree, but wanted to throw that out there to consider all sides! Wow this guy from e-bay caused a lot of trouble! As members we can add or remove our post including patterns, so does that make LHR property? Or is it we are allowed to post out patterns with the knowledge it becomes public for use for everybody? I am leaning towards the later and without the ability to copyright our patterns what is stopping a person from copying a CD made by us and reselling it? We do all the work including making a nice file or CD and make it easy for them to sell! You know non members will not know the difference like the case with the e-bay seller.

Trust me I still like the ideal, but these questions and thoughts keep popping in my head.

Ike


Thats basically what my #6 was. eelamb had suggested we can use a GNU type license, but at best we could use parts of it as a boiler plate. If you not familiar with GNU, generally there lisenses ensure that anyone can use AND modify whats covered under a GNU lisense. I'm prefectly happy with GNU for anything I have ever done, but the general consensus I have seen so far on the forurm is the authors would prefer not to allow the modifcation of thier works.

Here is a link if you want to do more reading.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

It's possible to craft text to protect and cover whatever the forum decides... and then we would have demonstratable proof if any of the forum generated cd showed up on ebay or any other site for "sale". In that instance, there would be little difficulty in getting ebay or any other site to take down the auctions. In the current state, I still doubt legally there is anything wrong with what the referenced ebay user was doing. Obviously the forum generated cd would have way more patterns and be cheaper to boot so there would be little reason for anyone to buy his version anymore, and the liscense would stop anyone from selling ours in whole or in part for profit.

[Ike]

Thats basically what my #6 was. eelamb had suggested we can use a GNU type license, but at best we could use parts of it as a boiler plate. If you not familiar with GNU, generally there lisenses ensure that anyone can use AND modify whats covered under a GNU lisense. I'm prefectly happy with GNU for anything I have ever done, but the general consensus I have seen so far on the forurm is the authors would prefer not to allow the modifcation of thier works.

Here is a link if you want to do more reading.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html


Quick question what is stopping somebody from taking the GNU pattern and modifying enough to call it their own and copyrighting in turn selling the patterns in a CD like the e-bay seller? Sorry stupid question I read it is not allowed to change, but still what if this happens?

But this confuses me...Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps: (1) assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License giving you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify it.

So again then others downloading can copy distribute and or modify then resell?

Ike

[dbfletcher]

Quick question what is stopping somebody from taking the GNU pattern and modifying enough to call it their own and copyrighting in turn selling the patterns in a CD like the e-bay seller? Sorry stupid question I read it is not allowed to change, but still what if this happens?

Ike


The GNU lisense does specifically forbid that type of behaviour. Specifically section 5. Any derivative works also must be released under the same lisense. I'm sure this has been testing in court before and it isnt terribly difficult to determine if a work is a derivative work of another or a wholely seperate creation.

It has been my experience the people generally abide by GNU, becuase they see the advantages of doing so.

Again.. I'm not a lawyer, but GNU has been around since the early 80's.

And a lot of the points you bring up are the same reasons I didnt think GNU would generally (stated in my first post) work for what it seems the forum members want.

[dbfletcher]

Doug,
I have to CarverPic. Anything I have posted in open forum is to be considered in the Public Domain and was shared without license or royalty request. I just happy if someone can use what I post. Feel free to include my stuff. I wouldn't mind grabbing a copy of the ISO. In Feb 2011 I'll actually have a 'puter that is capable of doing something with it......anyone want to join me in target practice? I have this computer that needs to be shot at least a few thousand times <grin>.

Bill....


Be very carfull with that wording. Putting something in the Public Domain generally means that anyone can do anything that want with it. And that does include turning around and selling it if they wish.

here is the wikipedia for that topic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

The creative commons version I think is a lot more understandable however.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/

And we wonder why there are so many lawyers.......... (my apoligies if any of our members are lawyers... it was meant as a good hearted jab rather than an insult.)

[gwizpro]

Very Interesting thread. Keep an eye on the the eBay ads for patterns, I got a hunch something is going to happen....

[eelamb]

as to the GNU--MODIFY, I believe that is not possible with the current setup of LHR, which does not allow others to edit a pattern you created. It would apply to any MPC, but patterns within the MPC would still be protected, so I think the MODIFY could be eliminated in the verbage.

I would suggest all patterns on the CD or where ever they are collectively stored also have an image of the pattern. This gives the user a good idea what the pattern is, since as we know some have names not associated with the pattern. Plus there are many duplicate names in the attachments.

This could get very complicated, sorting, and cataloging the patterns. If a new thread (like gallery) was started and within that would be categories (threads) this would help to begin the process.

I do like the idea of stopping the eBay seller so complain, complain, complain. May not do any good but he will know his tactics are not welcomed.

[William Blankenship]

Doug,

This is basically what I was eluding to: ....once placed in the public domain, the Work may be freely reproduced, distributed, transmitted, used, modified, built upon, or otherwise exploited by anyone for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, and in any way, including by methods that have not yet been invented or conceived (taken from the creative commons, public domain certification). You are right about why there are so many lawyers. It is a complicated issue, much more so than I thought.