Short in Machine????

[alljoy]

I need some help please. I got my machine in April and since the middle of August my machine has been down with one error after another.

We've cleaned the board sensor, replaced the FFC cable, replaced the Z motor, replaced the power supply electronics board, replaced the controller electronics board, took apart and cleaned cut motor, changed the wall outlet to a dedicated 20 amp service with heavy 12 guage wire and no line loss under load, replaced sandpaper drive belts, and most recently changed over from a QC to CarveTight system.

After changing to the CarveTight and loading a project to try (several times) we have gotten a y axis stall (check it and try again), got a z axis stall (check it and try again), got an x axis stall (check it and try again) got another z axis stall and finally the last two times we've tried it we received check cut motor errors.
We have tried several times reformatting the card, tried running both the most current software 1.175 as well as the older version. We have been on the phone quite a few times (to say the least) with both tier one and tier two support (I think Phil might recognize my voice now). The guys have been quite patient and tried to figure out what is causing all the problems. We seem to get one error, deal with that by ordering the part (and I'm in Canada so that can take awhile and can be expensive) just to find out that once that part is installed we get another error or same error to deal with and try something else.

Now LHR is saying it must be a short in the machine somewhere so either we can try to locate the short ourselves or narrow it down, or we can send it back to Texas from Ontario at our expense for BOTH ways of shipping and they try to fix it.

Financially we're at over $3500. total now with everything regarding this machine so we're at the point of no return but we just can't afford shipping both ways right now. FedEx want $200. one way. So does anyone at all have any suggestions as to where a short might be or how to fix this or even a suggestion at a cheaper way to get it to Texas since LHR still does not have a Canadian distributor or service depot and no idea of when one might come about. And of course we know now that George Caron has left us all high and dry.

I would appreciate any help what-so-ever. We're trying to get a business going with the use of the machine and I do have a couple of orders waiting but to no avail.

Thank you,
Joyce

[cnsranch]

This is a job for Al - Digitalwoodshop. He'll chime in shortly - trust me. In the meantime, here's a link to his profile - you may want to send him a private message....

http://forum.carvewright.com/member.php?1159-Digitalwoodshop

Did you buy a used machine? Or, are you over 200 hours with a new machine? Seems like some of this should be warranty stuff.

One thing you could do for us (who don't have the electronic background of Al) is to post a couple of the mpc's that you've been having errors with - we could see if there are problems there.

[liquidguitars]

Most stalls are from dirty bearings look for frozen non moving ones, 8 in total. you can use WD40.

UPS charges 85.00 oneway in the USA. if you have pending orders I wood buy one more CW as it good to have 2.

As far as the total 3500.00 that sounds like an bit of a fish story.

I sure AL will jump in on checking the short.

[mtylerfl]

Hello Joyce,

Sorry you've had such a hard time with your machine. I'll never figure that one out...extremely unusual to say the least! I would definitely recommend sending it to CarveWright Headquarters for a thorough going over and repair when you are able to. It sounds like you have tried just about everything you can do yourself already... unless AL can come up with a few more ideas/suggestions on things you can check yourself before sending it in. I've got my fingers crossed for you!

[mtylerfl]

Wow...three calls for help from AL in less than five minutes!

[alljoy]

Thank you Jerry. I bought the machine brand new at a woodworking show in Ontario from George Caron (used to be the Cdn distributor). I am still under the warranty window (thank goodness) but I've been hit a couple of times with duty fees and shipping charges. The carvetight system cost me over 75. with shipping and duty. 3986439865
These are two of the project files I've tried.

[alljoy]

Thank you, have checked the Y and Z bearings and all are fine.
I swear I am not a fisherwoman, the basic machine in Canada cost 2500. plus bit set, carvetight and shipping and duty charges on that and some parts. I need to make some money before I can think about buying another machine.

Joyce

[mtylerfl]

Hello,

Both those projects are very simple - I didn't see any issues that could possibly cause the troubles with your machine.

[liquidguitars]

US is under 1800.00,

Carbide is never cheep regardless.



Thank you, have checked the Y and Z bearings and all are fine.



how do you know this?

[cnsranch]

Joyce - can you describe what happens when you attempt to carve the "test" mpc (the man cave)?

Like MT says, shouldn't be a problem - unless....

Your Designer's board is set at 18" long by 5.352 wide. If you're placing a real board in the machine that's 18" long, you will have issues because of the 7" rule. Your real board should be at least 7" longer than the Designer board, unless you are not carving within 3.5" of each end. In any event, this problem (leads to scaling the project, messes up the carve) really wouldn't cause major failures.

What type of wood are you carving on? Perhaps there are problems with the machine "seeing" the edges/ends of the board during measuring (Canadian wood is different than good old OOSA wood, you know :) ).

I guess my real question is back at the top of this reply - what's happening when you try to carve the project? You seem to have done everything except replace the cabinet.

[alljoy]

I mean we have cleaned and adjusted the bearings for both z and y bearings and they move as they are suppose to.

[liquidguitars]

took apart and cleaned cut motor


Unless your AL this is a bad idea, I recommend NOT to remove the dust shield and mess with the encoder on the Z or Y pack, could be your prob.

Edit: sorry you said cut motor. no need to clean normally.

[liquidguitars]

I mean we have cleaned and adjusted the bearings for both z and y bearings and they move as they are suppose to.


This can be hard to check. You will have to remove the Z truck and Y body and manually check for frozen bearings. One bad bearing will give you STALL issues.

I cut Northwestern Canadian Cedar a lot and it will thrash the bearings, I have to replace or clean every 60 hrs or so. after removing the truck and body you can free spin the bearing to locate the bad ones, sometimes a soaking of WD40 will clean them, also check the bearings screws are tight.

[alljoy]

When we tried the test project the last two times that we got the check cut motor error, the machine started up normally asking me if I want to keep it under rollers (always yes), going through the procedure of measuring the board, asking me if I want to centre it on board (yes), if I want to cut board to length (no), asks to load the carving bit (already loaded so hit enter) does the homing thing, starts the carve and almost immediately gets a cut motor error (hit enter) and then the cut motor seems to re-start at half the speed and then the whole machine shuts down and the screen goes blank.
Other times we've tried the project and got the z y or x stall as it's going through the motions of trying to measure the board or start up. Seems to be errors for no apparent reasons, although there must be one.
The wood we're using is a nice light red oak. I always add the 7" to the product now, tried scaling a project early on and didn't like the results.

Thankfully my husband is quite mechanically inclined otherwise I don't think I would have managed to check, clean and replace as many things as we have.

Joyce

[alljoy]

ok but just replaced the whole z truck with the brand new carve tight. Couldn't possibly be that bearings on both z trucks are no good, could it?

[liquidguitars]

ok but just replaced the whole z truck

could be the bearings not ajusted right.

Also ya need to check the remaning 4 bearings on Y truck two. total of 8 ea. bearings.

when you get a stall is it right away or after it checks the bit?

[alljoy]

Husband has checked the bearings on the y truck as well. Sometimes it stalls before it checks the bit, sometimes after, and sometimes just after it starts to carve.
We have been reading through the maitenance files as well as using some files that Phil in support have sent us to try things.

Sorry don't mean to sound _itchy but just very frustrated with the machine and the money put out thus far.

[liquidguitars]

whole machine shuts down and the screen goes blank.



Hmmm,

unplug the unit and remove the bottom plate and check the on/ off switch for a loose conection.



Sorry don't mean to sound _itchy
thats ok the CW is not hard to work on once you get going.

[alljoy]

Good suggestion, but already done that too. :)

[cnsranch]

Man, where's Al Who when you need him??

[cnsranch]

No worries - LG sounds like that all the time :)

[alljoy]

Well guys, since my CW machine isn't making me money right now I do have to go do my "real" job which is drive school bus. I will check back with the forum in a couple of hours.
Thank you to all.

Joyce

[liquidguitars]

Al will have you look at the L2 for a short.. do a search for "L2 coil" when you get some time.

also check the FCC cable for damage again, I remove the plastic guard on the back of the truck so I can get a snug fit.

[liquidguitars]

No worries - LG sounds like that all the time :)

heeh! heh!

[Digitalwoodshop]

WOW..... That is a lot of information.... WOW.....

I am thinking that the last thing you posted where the machine started to carve then got the Check Cut Motor tells me allot.... All is GOOD even up to the point of getting a Check Cut Motor..... Even I get the Check Cut Motor Fault... It is something to do with when the Designers takes the project from Designer and converts it to machine language on the card. The Machine is monitoring the Cut Motor Speed through the magnet on the Cut Motor.

With projects that fault, it is normally with the first carve attempt and with a 2 sided carve never (I think) faults on the same cut on the second side. So please ignore the Check Cut Motor fault if it lets you start back up again.

Now for the Symptoms after pressing Enter and starting back up....

Yes the Cut Motor can cut at a lower speed upon restart. If the Cut Motor fails to start or actually stalls then I would look at the Cut Motor Brushes. If you have over 250 Cut Motor Hours you need to replace the brushes before you snap a $40.00 bit.

So now lets say the motor keeps running and cutting....

Then you get a stall, any stall.... My thinking is Vibration Related... Then the first thing I think of is another BAD L2 in the Power Supply.... Yes a NEW Power Supply from LHR can have a bad L2.... It may not have shown up when they inspected it... And is easily missed. The broken lead is normally broken within the board, right where it is bent over and soldered from underneath. You can find my pictures posted about 20 times in the last year.

To Eliminate the L2 as the problem...... Know that by doing this, you void returning the power supply to LHR....

If you can find a TV Repair Shop..... Someone with SKILL soldering..... You can do one of 2 things.....

Flux and heat the single lead of the L2 with a soldering Iron and see if when the solder melts, the bottom bent over piece falls out..... Check Both... OR just tug on the L2 before doing the soldering thing... If it is broken then it will pull out of the hole in the top side of the circuit board. Then you know.....

Electrically..... You could solder a short length of wire to the bottom of the L2 Coil effectively shorting it out.... It is just a coil of wire around a metal core. So it is already shorted.... but the coils act as a filter and filter out noise on the power wire to the Computer. By shorting it with a piece of wire, JUST FOR A TEST, you can find a bad L2....

YOU would NOT want to leave it that way.... It could cause noise related problems on the computer. The L2 is in Series like a Fuse in the power wire. When the Vibration causes the broken tips of the wire to touch, not touch, touch... This causes what ever Axis that is Moving to STALL......

SO I am thinking it is a BAD NEW Power Supply.... So ordering ANOTHER Power Supply from LHR is an Option....

OR send them just the Power Supply for TESTING. If you did that.... I would send the Computer too....

So on to a similar problem that drove Lon nuts with his machine. Speaking of Lon on this Veterans Day.... He is in a VA Hospital getting a new Knee.... Lon found that one of the wires from the power supply to the computer was LOOSE in the Plastic PLUG.... He was monitoring the Voltage when the fault happened and he noticed the voltage drop. He Re soldered the Wire and his machine is back up and running and waiting on his return home.

So that is a lot.... But there could be one more.......

The Cable between the Board Detector and the top circuit board.... IF.... A Wire is pinched like happened on 2 of my machines.... It might be just breaking through the plastic of the wire on the sharp edge.... The Vibration causes a short.... The Data Buss Goes DEAD and the machine is BLIND and STALLS.... No Sensor DATA.... No encoder... No switches... The machine stops and the short goes away...

SO.... LOTS of things.....

I dismiss all the bearing and board sensor problems because the machine does get to the carving stage... To do so... All bearings, board detector and encoders must work.... VIBRATION is the KEY..... GREAT you have the Carve Tite.... But the QC most likely caused this problem.....

Good Luck....

OK.. I will post the pictures again for quicker ref.

AL

[alljoy]

Thank you Al for the ideas. We did check the L2 and it does seem to be fine according to your check procedure. We also put the metre on it and there is continuity.
We also checked the wires from the board sensor (LHR support suggested this as well), they were crimped a bit but there was continuity through each wire and through a magnifying glass didn't "appear" to have any breaks. We did carefully put a bit of electrical tape on the wires just in case though.
We tried a small carve, first time got an z axis stall, then a y stall, then an z again.....apparently 4th time is the charm cause it finally carved. Yeah!!!
Now I have two questions, should the machine be bolted down to the surface it sits on? Does this make a difference in vibration? Also, I know the machine can build up static electricity, is there a way to ground the machine or discharge this? Is this something we should even concern ourselves with?

Going to try another carve, will keep you posted.
Thanks again,
Joyce

[cnsranch]

WooHoo!!

Great news - keep carvin', get her broken in :)

I've used wood screws to hold my unit down in the past, but it now sits on a very stable table (hey, that rhymes) and I don't need to hold it - couldn't hurt, though.

Re static- I think most are concerned with build-up of static when using a dust collection system - that said, it will build up static when using a wet/dry vac to clear out sawdust during a carve. Say you're halfway thru a carve and you want to open the cover and vac it out. Remember that the machine's still on, and that vac will cause build-up. Simply placing one hand on the machine (metal surface) while the vac's hose is inside will dissipate the electricity.

[fwharris]

Just adding a little more to Jerry's post,,, If you vac it out make sure the vac hose is not any where close to the display side of the machine! Static from the hose will build up and jump to the electronics of the machine..

[Digitalwoodshop]

I am glad to hear you got it working..... If the problem pops up again... Ask LHR for another Power Supply... Other Components could be causing this problem....

I have a dust collection hood on my machine. I have a ground wire with 3 big gator clips on each end. I clip in on the dust collector in 2 places and the foil dryer hose I use. On the other end, I clip it on the foil hose and the roll around cart and most importantly to the out feed tray.

Last summer the clip came off the machine end of the foil hose. I hear snap.... snap...... Look inside the machine and from the copper dust hood to the cutting bit.... A Lightning Bolt..... The dust moving through the hose produces the static. Clipped the ground back and no problems...

AL

Good Job.

[alljoy]

Half-way through my second carve today the machine stopped with a z stall and then the power went off and we couldn't turn the machine back on. We waited a few minutes, unplugged the machine and plugged it back in and then it turned back on. Did some further inspection and found the head pressure was off by about 20 lbs, I guess maybe from the messing around we've done with it for the last 13 weeks or so. Fixed that up and lubricated the rods and then tried again. Machine wouldn't turn on at all.....checked the wires to the on/off switch and found one of the wires had come off. Fixed that and tried again. It worked, finished the carve beautifully. Will post a picture later. I'm so pleased, have stopped being _itchy now (for the time being anyway, lol). Thank you so much for everyone's help and advise. We do so appreciate it all.

Joyce

[Digitalwoodshop]

Good JOB !!!!

AL